Special Girl ‘Madonna-Whore’ incompatibility or ‘Beta Bait’?

[Marty]

When using the ‘Madonna-Whore’ model of sexual relations to analyze an interaction, if I am pursuing a girl for the ‘Madonna’ role, but she is using language associated more with the ‘Whore’ archetype, is that an irreconcilable difference, or can I plow past the obstacle by ignoring it?

To be more specific, I am seeking a romantic relationship or at least ongoing casual intimacy with a girl, and no matter that I have made my intentions abundantly clear, she is not reciprocating my affection in her actions—for example, she turns her lips away and offers her cheek in greeting or farewell—yet in her words, she has repeatedly referred to a specific sexual practice, both in person and over text, that I have no interest in pursuing. So far, I have avoided responding to this, suspecting that it is ‘Beta Bait’. Is this the right approach?

 

[topcat]

When using the ‘Madonna-Whore’ model of sexual relations to analyze an interaction, if I am pursuing a girl for the ‘Madonna’ role, but she is using language associated more with the ‘Whore’ archetype, is that an irreconcilable difference, or can I plow past the obstacle by ignoring it?

To be more specific, I am seeking a romantic relationship or at least ongoing casual intimacy with a girl, and no matter that I have made my intentions abundantly clear, she is not reciprocating my affection in her actions—for example, she turns her lips away and offers her cheek in greeting or farewell—yet in her words, she has repeatedly referred to a specific sexual practice, both in person and over text, that I have no interest in pursuing. So far, I have avoided responding to this, suspecting that it is ‘Beta Bait’. Is this the right approach?

Wrong paradigm entirely. You should be analyzing this using the “results vs rewards” model.

This girl isn’t doing anything that leads the interaction towards intimacy, therefore she isn’t interested. You should be pulling back your attention in turn.

Repeatedly making the same unreciprocated moves (ie. getting kisses rejected) sets negative precedent and throws off your ability to seduce.

Instead of figuring out how to seduce her you’re better off pulling back, seeking other leads and letting her show initiative.

Once that happens (if it happens) only then can you think about “negotiating” sex acts.

 

[Marty]

Wrong paradigm entirely. You should be analyzing this using the “results vs rewards” model.

This girl isn’t doing anything that leads the interaction towards intimacy, therefore she isn’t interested. You should be pulling back your attention in turn.

Repeatedly making the same unreciprocated moves (ie. getting kisses rejected) sets negative precedent and throws off your ability to seduce.

Instead of figuring out how to seduce her you’re better off pulling back, seeking other leads and letting her show initiative.

Once that happens (if it happens) only then can you think about “negotiating” sex acts.

As you know, Topcat, I always appreciate your perspective and therefore I have pulled back my attention.

I am, however, loath to drop the interaction entirely, having just read @Gunwitch’s recent article Why You Eject from Talking to Girls Too Soon. I was particularly impressed by the paragraph set in Oregon in 2000. He appears to advise persisting until actually rejected.

Over the years I’ve noticed many forum responses of the ‘just hard next her bro’ variety, which the article basically describes as an egocentric, macho move, leading to nothing but loss of potentially available tail in a significant percentage of cases.

Of course, this is unsubtle compared with your nuanced recommendation, which I have followed and which shows promise, as the girl is already texting asking whether I am okay, on the ostensible grounds that it is “uncharacteristic” for me not to reply for almost a week.

 

[topcat]

He appears to advise persisting until actually rejected.

I hear what you’re saying Marty, but, with this approach how do you differentiate persistence from being “led on”? How do you behave as a man with options, whilst pursuing a girl who expresses little romantic interest in you? How does one pour time into promising leads whilst wasting the same time on an unpromising one?

Over the years I’ve noticed many forum responses of the ‘just hard next her bro’ variety, which the article basically describes as an egocentric, macho move, leading to nothing but loss of potentially available tail in a significant percentage of cases.

Agreed, there’s definitely nuance to it. Ultimately it comes down to how much rejection your ego can weather, how much time you have to waste and how many better options you have (regardless it’s best to act as if you had many).

Glad you’re seeing a flip in the dynamic

 

[TomInHo]

As you know, Topcat, I always appreciate your perspective and therefore I have pulled back my attention.

I am, however, loath to drop the interaction entirely, having just read @Gunwitch’s recent article Why You Eject from Talking to Girls Too Soon. I was particularly impressed by the paragraph set in Oregon in 2000. He appears to advise persisting until actually rejected.

I read the article and from the back and forth mentioned it doesn’t seem like the girl wasn’t down

The guy just misread her signals and assumed the worst. The way I saw it when she said slow down she was referring to let’s not get too touchy in public

IMO it’s always best to assume attraction. Even if it may seem delusional it’s better to have a frame of “This girl is so into but is just trying to safe face to not appear too easy”

You will be wrong sometimes but that mindset can help you turn around girls that are on the fence more often than you’ll think

Over the years I’ve noticed many forum responses of the ‘just hard next her bro’ variety, which the article basically describes as an egocentric, macho move, leading to nothing but loss of potentially available tail in a significant percentage of cases.

I think what you’re referring to is using advanced levels of persistence

Persistence is an advanced skill and to do it correctly it’s not just about plowing through resistance like a bull in a China shop

A better way to approach it is if you make a move and a girl gives resistance you need to pull back then banter in a way to uncover her real reason for resistance

She could be resisting for multiple reasons
- Fear of the slut label
- Fear of the sex being wack
- Lack of comfort
- Lack of arousa
- She might be on her period

You really won’t know until you slow down and probe her a bit more so you can figure out what her real objection is

And you pull back and go the passive route of setting frames and trying to bust her objection and nothing seems to be working don’t be afraid to call her out

“Hey, I’ve been enjoying spending time you and like this and this, but for reason I feel like you’re holding back a bit. What’s up?”

They may say oh nothing but you can persist and probe more

“Oh okay, because it seemed like we had some chemistry before but now it feels like we losing momentum and things are a bit off

Just wanted to let you know if you’re concerned about something you let me know without fear of judgement”

Main gist is don’t be afraid to hear girls say NO. Because a lot of the time the first NO you get is when the seduction really begins. And by working through her objections together you’re displaying you both are on the same team

Got nothing to lose being direct and if she doesn’t want to open up then she is probably not as invested in the seduction as you are

 

[Marty]

I hear what you’re saying Marty, but, with this approach how do you differentiate persistence from being “led on”? How do you behave as a man with options, whilst pursuing a girl who expresses little romantic interest in you? How does one pour time into promising leads whilst wasting the same time on an unpromising one?

You’re absolutely right. That’s a terrible waste of time and sucks up energy I could better put to use elsewhere. As I often say to women who want my attention but don’t spend enough time with me to merit it, “I prefer women who like me”.

In this case she’s using what seems to be a ‘push-pull’ method to play with my emotions. A week ago she texted me that every time she sprayed herself with the perfume I gifted her, she smiled and thought about me. Then just a few hours later, she wrote that I had raised my voice to her twice when we were on vacation together and basically implied that I was on my last warning. I find this sort of roller-coaster very upsetting, which is why I didn’t reply at all until she texted me again today.

Also I don’t think on principle that a lady should be trying to reform or ‘shape’ a man she is not even in a relationship with (whether it is permissible to ‘fix up’ a boyfriend or husband is arguable, but it definitely happens; but with a date it’s ridiculous).

Agreed, there’s definitely nuance to it. Ultimately it comes down to how much rejection your ego can weather, how much time you have to waste and how many better options you have (regardless it’s best to act as if you had many).

Ego-wise there’s no problem, I’m a pretty easygoing guy. I definitely don’t have time to waste. Options vary; you spoke earlier about lead generation—I have trouble with that since I’m pretty unsociable (not lacking in social skills; that’s a different thing altogether—I know you know this obviously Topcat but there can always be beginners reading a post).

Glad you’re seeing a flip in the dynamic

I hope so. I replied that I was alive and well and that I was touched that she had asked, which she reacted to with a ‘praying hands’ emoticon.

IMO it’s always best to assume attraction. Even if it may seem delusional it’s better to have a frame of “This girl is so into but is just trying to safe face to not appear too easy”

You will be wrong sometimes but that mindset can help you turn around girls that are on the fence more often than you’ll think

Fully agree, TomInHo, and thanks for commenting on my post.

She could be resisting for multiple reasons
- Fear of the slut label
- Fear of the sex being wack
- Lack of comfort
- Lack of arousal
- She might be on her period

Is it always about sex? (Slut label, poor sex, lack of arousal, period.) I actually never proactively touched on the subject of sex with her; I was just hoping to see some reciprocation of the romantic interest I had shown her over the past few months—she has even written to me more than once to say that the flowers she received from me were starting to wilt, an unsubtle hint that she wants more. She says she likes ‘tokens of affection’.

And you pull back and go the passive route of setting frames and trying to bust her objection and nothing seems to be working don’t be afraid to call her out

“Hey, I’ve been enjoying spending time you and like this and this, but for reason I feel like you’re holding back a bit. What’s up?”

They may say oh nothing but you can persist and probe more

“Oh okay, because it seemed like we had some chemistry before but now it feels like we losing momentum and things are a bit off

Just wanted to let you know if you’re concerned about something you let me know without fear of judgement”

I like this a lot. I tried something similar on March 10, but it went completely haywire. I wrote the following:

I get the impression that our communication is a little superficial. It seems that I haven’t been able to create comfort and trust with you, such that you’d feel ready to open up. Tell me, am I assessing the situation correctly?​

I had thought that the above was pretty clear, but she got hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely. Here was her response:

I wouldn’t say that I’m closed off I’m not sure what you prefer in terms of communication… With me, trust takes years to build.​

​

This was followed by a huge paragraph of examples from her life, largely irrelevant to our interaction as far as I was concerned.

Main gist is don’t be afraid to hear girls say NO. Because a lot of the time the first NO you get is when the seduction really begins. And by working through her objections together you’re displaying you both are on the same team

Yes! Love this, thank you

 

[TomInHo]

You’re absolutely right. That’s a terrible waste of time and sucks up energy I could better put to use elsewhere. As I often say to women who want my attention but don’t spend enough time with me to merit it, “I prefer women who like me”.

In this case she’s using what seems to be a ‘push-pull’ method to play with my emotions. A week ago she texted me that every time she sprayed herself with the perfume I gifted her, she smiled and thought about me. Then just a few hours later, she wrote that I had raised my voice to her twice when we were on vacation together and basically implied that I was on my last warning. I find this sort of roller-coaster very upsetting, which is why I didn’t reply at all until she texted me again today.

Also I don’t think on principle that a lady should be trying to reform or ‘shape’ a man she is not even in a relationship with (whether it is permissible to ‘fix up’ a boyfriend or husband is arguable, but it definitely happens; but with a date it’s ridiculous).


Ego-wise there’s no problem, I’m a pretty easygoing guy. I definitely don’t have time to waste. Options vary; you spoke earlier about lead generation—I have trouble with that since I’m pretty unsociable (not lacking in social skills; that’s a different thing altogether—I know you know this obviously Topcat but there can always be beginners reading a post).


I hope so. I replied that I was alive and well and that I was touched that she had asked, which she reacted to with a ‘praying hands’ emoticon.


Fully agree, TomInHo, and thanks for commenting on my post.


Is it always about sex? (Slut label, poor sex, lack of arousal, period.) I actually never proactively touched on the subject of sex with her; I was just hoping to see some reciprocation of the romantic interest I had shown her over the past few months—she has even written to me more than once to say that the flowers she received from me were starting to wilt, an unsubtle hint that she wants more. She says she likes ‘tokens of affection’.


I like this a lot. I tried something similar on March 10, but it went completely haywire. I wrote the following:

I get the impression that our communication is a little superficial. It seems that I haven’t been able to create comfort and trust with you, such that you’d feel ready to open up. Tell me, am I assessing the situation correctly?​

I had thought that the above was pretty clear, but she got hold of the wrong end of the stick entirely. Here was her response:

I wouldn’t say that I’m closed off I’m not sure what you prefer in terms of communication… With me, trust takes years to build.​

​

This was followed by a huge paragraph of examples from her life, largely irrelevant to our interaction as far as I was concerned.


Yes! Love this, thank you

I’m a little confused. What exactly do you want from this girl?

As in what is your desired outcome from this interaction? Romance, sex, both, friendship? Please be specific

 

[Marty]

I’m a little confused. What exactly do you want from this girl?

As in what is your desired outcome from this interaction? Romance, sex, both, friendship? Please be specific

Romance and eventually sex too, of course. Definitely not platonic friendship. I have made that super clear: so much so that on January 20, before we had taken our vacation together, she actually wrote me:

No one is for the time being offering you friendship or the friendzone ​

My point was merely that I haven’t yet raised the issue of sex, other than by innuendo last summer as described in the original field report, therefore her period, her arousal or lack thereof, etcetera, can scarcely be a valid objection.

As I mentioned above:

To be more specific, I am seeking a romantic relationship or at least ongoing casual intimacy with a girl

 

[TomInHo]

Romance and eventually sex too, of course.

IMO this is where you might be messing up. Get the sex first man, because without it she is not that invested in you

You might be chasing the relationship before the sex and this means you’re operating in the feminine role that can mess up attraction

Definitely not platonic friendship. I have made that super clear: so much so that on January 20, before we had taken our vacation together, she actually wrote me:

No one is for the time being offering you friendship or the friendzone ​

Jan 20th is very long time G.

I personally don’t see any reason to take a girl I’m not having sex with on a vacation

So if you 2 aren’t having sex and you’re investing all this time in her, your actions are that oa guy that’s in the friendzone hoping to get out

You can reframe it verbally all you want but your actions with her are what define the dynamic of relationship

My point was merely that I haven’t yet raised the issue of sex, other than by innuendo last summer as described in the original field report, therefore her period, her arousal or lack thereof, etcetera, can scarcely be a valid objection.

As I mentioned above:

Oof this is very bad G…. Very bad

From what I read you have been courting this woman since 2018 and you only made sexual innuendo last year?

Look man, as the man you should be focused on FUCKING

Please believe if she has been talking to you for 6 years she has fucked at least one man that has put in way less effort than you

But let’s puts things in perspective… why should her behavior change?

You give her lots of attention, buy her flowers, take her on vacations and what do you really get in return?

Why would she want to be in a real relationship with you when she can get almost all the perks of one with minimal investment on her end?

IMO you should be pushing this interaction towards sex way more aggressively than you have been prior. Because without the sex as glue your current frame is that of a pseudo boyfriend

 

[gameboy]

You need to meet more girls, my friend.

 

[TomInHo]

You need to meet more girls, my friend.

Agreed, but he also needs to understand what he is doing wrong with this girl unless history will repeat

 

[gameboy]

Agreed, but he also needs to understand what he is doing wrong with this girl unless history will repeat

True. Meet more girls, and learn to move faster with them. MUCH faster!

This woman is stringing you (OP) along really badly. She even said "no one is offering you friendship"... what exactly is she offering you, then?

It sounds like a particularly bad case of oneitis to me.

 

[Marty]

Get the sex first man, because without it she is not that invested in you

You’re quite right, and this has been suggested to me before.

On the other hand, I have to find a way to do this that is congruent with my overall character. I can’t just do a 180 from Marty to, say, Hector overnight. It won’t look authentic.

I do desire her sexually, in particular, she has a beautifully-defined pelvic area and tiny flat abdomen. However, what I really want is to be loved. I guess if sex can get me there, that will help. Certainly I have no shortage of experience of sex over the years, so I’ll know what to do once in the bedroom, so to speak, but I can’t say it’s the primary motivator from my side.

From what I read you have been courting this woman since 2018 and you only made sexual innuendo last year?

Not exactly, apologies if this wasn’t clear from the FR. TLDR:

Dec 2018: meet B for coffee date
Jan 2019: begin relationship with another lady, let’s call her Y
Throughout 2019: romantic phase with Y; regular physical contact, (12+ visits of a few days each), sex, long weekends etc. Occasional ‘probing’ texts received from B.
2020-2022: due to both circumstances (coronavirus, SMO) and her apparent intentions, amount of physical contact with Y starts to fall off to an average of 2 to 3 visits per year of about a week each. Good sex and very loving attitude when present, but it becomes obvious that Y has rethought her intention to relocate to be with me, without being explicit about it, if indeed it was ever sincere. (She still wants money and presents though!) I start to realize that this actually works okay for me and begin exploring additional/alternative options.
Mar 2023: I resume flirtatious messaging with B, with ‘intent’ this time.
Aug 2023: dinner date with B in her home city in Russia.
Feb 2024: extended 5-day date/vacation with B in Istanbul.

Please believe if she has been talking to you for 6 years she has fucked at least one man that has put in way less effort than you

Oh sure, she had a couple boyfriends during the interval mentioned above, one of them pretty high-flying, so I understand, but he disappeared and married someone else She told me about it during a taxi journey in Istanbul; I told her about how I started dating my ex-wife, at her request. These seem like normal conversations for two adults who both have extensive relationship experience.

I personally don’t see any reason to take a girl I’m not having sex with on a vacation

The extended date was her idea but, I think, a good one. How else am I supposed to get to know her properly, other than through extended in-person interaction—or indeed have sex with her, if it comes to that? It is escalatory compared with the previous dinner date where, as she pointed out, we were both ‘wearing a mask’ to some extent.