A very old intake on the Coffee Date (Mrsex4uNYC from mASF)

[Witcher]

Hello Everyone,

These latter days I went through the archive of the old mASF forum and came across a very interesting post. The thread describes the date template of Mrsex4uNYC, a respected veteran from whom Chase got his inspiration for the deep-diving question described in What does she want 8 things you must ask her. The date is not much different from what is usually advised here. However, I still found some interesting differences in how to handle fundamentals elements namely date length, venue changes, and asking her home. In this context, I would love your comment about those.

In order to not make the post too long, I quote here only the parts I'm referring too. You can see the whole post here.

Venue Change and Lenght of the Date:
Both of these are very strange for me since I am usually advised to venue changes in order to create more connexion and/or usually try to keep the dates in the 2 hours max

That is because you don't want to change venues because you
will lose vibe temporarily.

Easily within two hours (if you rush, within one, but rushing is no good
because you have to interrupt her states to bring up the next topic) you can
get all the information you need and STACK examples of how you are her type.
You can see if she's interested in you or not.

Asking Girls Home
Until now I have always been advised to proactively pushing to get her home. Here it's quite the contrary, it's is advised to do it in a reactive way.

Watch for your breaks. She says "It's getting chilly, let me go home and get
my sweater". Next thing you know you are in her house where you want to be.
If you have already moved into touching, hold her in her living room and look
into her eyes. You can see if she brought you there to fuck or to get a
sweater. She says let's go for drinks after this, or she orders alcohol when
you go to lunch. She is placing herself in the state she likes to be in to be
loose for sex. There is no reason for a chick that doesn't trust you to get
drunk around you... unless she's an alcoholic

As far as how do you get them home after the cup of coffee? You CAN'T! They
have to TAKE YOU HOME! Mention things that you have in your house that she
doesn't have. You know what she does and does not have from your Q&A in the
beginning. What do you do for fun? Do you like movies? Do you go out or rent?
I happen to have a DVD player and movies that most people have never seen
before. I will mention to her in passing "I just picked up blah blah blah on
DVD. I really enjoyed whomever's performance in it" Many chicks have never
seen a DVD film except in the stores where they can't really enjoy it. I don't
tell them about things like this because I care that they go see the movie. I
tell them to load them up with excuses. Next thing she says "Let's go watch
that movie you were telling me about." Much easier for her to say than "I
really want you to fuck me now... take me home" Once you capture her
imagination and get her to believe that you are the man she wants to fuck her
right now, she will use the clues you drop on her to usher you somewhere to do
it, including restaurant bathrooms, if that is the last resort and you have
already told her stories implying that you are willing to have sex with women
that you find attractive in public bathrooms

So again would love your comments opinion. I also understand that this post is older than 20 years and in the meantime, we may have discovered better process. However maybe also some precious knowledge has been lost in the depth of the internet.

Thanks

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Sarging to the oldies!

It's instructive to read the old post to get a gist of what he's talking about. Once you get a feeling for the era, you can adapt his advice to today.

1. Friends but no friend zone

"First of all, my style (too complicated to discuss here... some parts I
don't even understand yet) involves becoming friends with the chicks. "

2. Because logistics, physical and emotional, aren't right he suggests a date.

"When I first meet her in whatever circumstance, it if is good for chatting, I
will cover what I need to right there. If it is not (in a bar, a club...) and
I can't go for the physical attraction thing immediately"

3. Guys were both cheap and thought that paying for coffee/drinks/food was supplication.

"You are right... do not go near eating periods. "

" If we go out to eat, I look at the check
and calculate half of the bill and the tip in my head, then when I am finished,
I dump the check in front of her, numbers facing up and facing her so she can
read the amount. Then they reach for their purses. There is NO ASSUMPTION
that I am paying for anything because WE are getting to know EACH OTHER. I did
not ask HER out to eat. That's another good point. "

4. Venue Changes - Addressing your question.

"That is because you don't want to change venues because you
will lose vibe temporarily. "

Getting back to the basics of seduction, you need a few elements for a same day/same night lay

1. Attraction - which isn't necessarily physical. Attraction in practical terms is whatever makes the girl want to be around you, talk to you. So it can be your looks, your money, your status, her insecurity, etc.
2. Trust/Comfort - She has to trust you
3. Arousal - She has to want sex NOW, not 12 dates from now.
4. Logistics - It's a minor factor, but if you want to hook up most easily, you need your logistics sorted.
5. Leadership - You've got to be the one making this happen, but it can not look like you're pushing for sex.

So what NYC is doing is meeting girls, generating a bit of attraction - although general social interest is probably a better way to frame it. The girl isn't dying to be with him, be his girlfriend, be his sex slave. She's just interested in communicating further.

There is enough trust to meet him later. There isn't any arousal yet.

What's interesting is the logistics. NYC isn't trying to generate deep attraction on the first meet, he wants to generate it during the date. From there, he's going to bring the girl through psychological phases (elicit her values, mirror those values, increase her arousal) and end up hooking up with her that day/night.

4. Not doing Venue Changes vs Time Dilation

To do what he is doing - take the girl through psychological stages - he needs to sit the girl down, and basically get her in a mental state that lets him take her through that emotional journey.

He has to stay in one place. He can't move her around because creating a good environment for her to

Remember, the old style of pick up was basically to use psychotherapy techniques that would happen in a psychiatrist's office, in the real world. Think of what they used to do as "street hypnosis".

Time Dilation - If the girl is already attracted, you can build more attraction and most of all TRUST, by venue changes. It makes the girl feel like she knows you more, because she's seeing who you are. You can augment this by talking to 3rd parties, introducing her to 3rd parties, handling other people, plunging her into unfamiliar environments where you are the only constant.

I could go on and on about time dilation - but NYC was building attraction/trust/arousal in one place and then immediately go to the sex location.

With venue changes for the purpose of time dilation, you have enough initial attraction, you're focusing on trust.

Recognize that a man can hook up with a chick in many different ways.

5. Properly understanding the NYC scenario

He met a girl, He didn't want to, or couldn't close her when he met her.
He comes at her like a friend, but not in the friend zone.
She has a boyfriend.
But she agrees to come out and meet him for coffee.
Now that he has her in one place, he's going to pick her brain, and then use what he learns to get closer.
He's going to get her on sexual/romantic/love topics.
He's going to break the touch barrier to see where he is.
He's not going to mention the BF, but that's the subtext.

6. Getting her home

He says looks for breaks. He also says to drop bait.

(breaks - excuses for you to go back to her place )

"Watch for your breaks. She says "It's getting chilly, let me go home and get
my sweater". Next thing you know you are in her house where you want to be. "

"As far as how do you get them home after the cup of coffee? You CAN'T! They
have to TAKE YOU HOME! Mention things that you have in your house that she
doesn't have. "

Why?

If he says, "why don't you come over and listen to Spotify with me" - she knows that he's asking for sex.

If she says something is at her place and she needs to get it, you can take her there and get her behind closed doors. PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.

If she reacts favorably to something you mention at your place, you can invite her to check out that thing. PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.

"Next thing she says "Let's go watch that movie you were telling me about."

But if you push for it, as opposed to her reaching for it - you can mess up the hook up.
And in this case, she has a boyfriend.

The girl has to think that the sex just happened.
One thing lead to another. (Especially a girl with a boyfriend.)

WIA

 

[Witcher]

@West_Indian_Archie

Damn what an answer. So detailed that I had to make time to review all this. Some follow up comments and questions about this.

Remember, the old style of pick up was basically to use psychotherapy techniques that would happen in a psychiatrist's office, in the real world. Think of what they used to do as "street hypnosis".

This make more sense. One thing however I always had trouble imagining girls reacting favorably to all these clinical style questions and not seeing the guy as weird.

So what NYC is doing is meeting girls, generating a bit of attraction - although general social interest is probably a better way to frame it. The girl isn't dying to be with him, be his girlfriend, be his sex slave. She's just interested in communicating further.

There is enough trust to meet him later. There isn't any arousal yet.

I could go on and on about time dilation - but NYC was building attraction/trust/arousal in one place and then immediately go to the sex location.

So basically he is in this date doing an SDL/SNL pick up again, it's just not a cold approach at a bar or street but a second meet.

Time Dilation - If the girl is already attracted, you can build more attraction and most of all TRUST, by venue changes. It makes the girl feel like she knows you more because she's seeing who you are. You can augment this by talking to 3rd parties, introducing her to 3rd parties, handling other people, plunging her into unfamiliar environments where you are the only constant.

With venue changes for the purpose of time dilation, you have enough initial attraction, you're focusing on trust.

So we have dates for various attraction types or levels. How can we really determine which one is?

If he says, "why don't you come over and listen to Spotify with me" - she knows that he's asking for sex.

If she says something is at her place and she needs to get it, you can take her there and get her behind closed doors. PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.

If she reacts favorably to something you mention at your place, you can invite her to check out that thing. PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.

Here I'm a little bit confused. Like in which way the first example is not plausible deniability? I thought that plausible deniability was just a good enough reason I mean anything except; let's go have sex in my place. If I invite her to check those things she reacted favorably to, or tell me something is at her place, the girl doesn't know that all this is about covertly asking for sex?

Another thing is his emphasis on kissing before full isolation. Like NYC says that a girl who kiss you is not far from having sex with you. Was it because the guide was written in the late 90s early 00s and kiss was more of a big deal for women?

@Bacchus

Sometimes its less than that. . . but the question of asking her home is best handled with plausible deniability. Most times, I don't need to make use of multiple venue changes because my favorite coffee shop is just. . . a couple minutes walking distance from where I live. Though, if I'm taking an instant date all the way home then I will bounce her around the various logistical hotspots. . . that I've marked in my mental map of the city.

So you can basically skip venu changes without any drop in your closing rate?

 

[Skills]

Night game you don't need to venue change. Online, maybe day game and second encounter venue change increases your odds in my experience. Venue change is not necessarily a venue, it could be coffee shop to park etc... field test to see which one gives higher odds

 

[Skills]

i forgot to add personality, i am a really high energy person if i were to do a date were i am sitting down in one place that would totally destroy my energy/charisma/vibe... me sitting in a coffee shop talking to a girl = a death sentence that would go against my personality of extremely active person by doing 3 bounces and moving around, specially walking that calms me down..... So personality style comes into place...

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

This make more sense. One thing however I always had trouble imagining girls reacting favorably to all these clinical style questions and not seeing the guy as weird.

If you ask a clinical style question in a clinical style manner, you'll look weird. It is possible to get these sorts of deep answers out of someone in a relatively short time when you have a better understanding of people generally.

The more socializing you do, the more you study the girls you deal with, the more you can probe a little further, and find the right thing that's going to make a girl open up.

That said, with any technique, what's your goal?

I still tend to run a "he really gets me" type of game, but the downside is attachment.

I don't want the girl to have some sort of life breakthrough when i'm just trying to get my dick sucked? Nahmean?

But going back to looking weird, there are multiple levels of pick up.

Mystery was/is a weird looking and weird sounding guy. His frame, his behavior that expects a certain response, can make the weird things NORMAL.

I was saying this on another sub

Rookies start at zero, then they learn the seller's game, then then buyer's game, and after fucking "dream girls" and marking off a small portion of their sexual bucket list, they will experience ennui.

Why am I even doing this? Gurus deal with this, but then go lateral into business, then into politics/growing a movement, and finally into self acceptance actualization.

So basically he is in this date doing an SDL/SNL pick up again, it's just not a cold approach at a bar or street but a second meet.

He's meeting her for the first time with the intention of having a second meet. I almost feel like this is a relic of the time, because girls of the 90s/00s didn't come across guys that were cool/hot/interesting every day.

With the internet/online dating, they're exposed to "cool guys" all the time, and each guy is less and less cool.

When you look at a woman's list
- tall (14% of the male population is 6' or over)
- handsome (only 20% of guys are handsome according to that OkCupid study)
- wealthy (1% wealth in the best cities is about 500K pre tax)

Doing the math, and not looking for correlations between wealth/attractiveness/handsome - that's she has 0.028% chance of meeting a guy like that.

The internet? There have been plenty of internet studies about moderately attractive girls getting matches on Tinder. One in particular comes to mind, a male body builder is dating a gym bunny. According to him, she's a 6. She got 6,000 matches in 1 day.

So in her pile of men, there are 168 matches.

It's still more trouble than it's worth for her, but this false sense of "options" means that his "time bridge" style of game has to be really good.

So we have dates for various attraction types or levels. How can we really determine which one is?

I don't know if I said it in this thread, but "mix and match" style game when a guy doesn't have a solid foundation is the easiest way to get confused and not get any results.

There are so many options of game, that rather than focus on so-called effectiveness, a man should focus on a style that he wants to adopt.

What kind of PUA do you want to be? How do you want to pull girls? Because PUA is not about sex. You can use your hand, get a hooker, focus on girls that already know you, or find and fuck easy smashes. PUA is about choice.

Here I'm a little bit confused. Like in which way the first example is not plausible deniability? I thought that plausible deniability was just a good enough reason I mean anything except; let's go have sex in my place. If I invite her to check those things she reacted favorably to, or tell me something is at her place, the girl doesn't know that all this is about covertly asking for sex?

>If he says, "why don't you come over and listen to Spotify with me" - she knows that he's asking for sex.

For Mr. Sex4U - He's initiating something that's obviously about sex.
In the other two examples, he's going with her flow (let's go get you that sweater, which is her plausible deniability), or he's REACTING to her wanting to see what's at his place.

He's taking his cues from the girl, because he's properly run the interaction so that she wants to be alone with him, as to him wanting and proposing a way for her to be alone with him.

In the first situation, he's got the control. In the other 2, she has control. She's going with her wishes and her desires.

That said, situation 1, come to my place and see my pet Marmoset named Mortimer, is what guys use all the time.

I'll say something like that if the nonverbal communication and social dynamics indicates that I should. Amount of time, her level of eye contact, her overall responsiveness to touch, the amount of agreeing she does with me, etc.

Failing that, sometimes a man has to gamble. If I throw something out and she jumps at it, it's on.

However, sometimes the girl is just looking for the next bit of novelty.

Traditionally, guys look for any reason to get a girl alone, and then they want to run game on her at his place. That to me is asking for trouble.

That's a decision I make, because I don't want to run that type of game. I'm not interested in running any kind of LMR buster.
I'm also the type of driver that will make 3 rights in order to make a left if the situation looks dodgy.

You might be more comfortable with that type of risk.

Another thing is his emphasis on kissing before full isolation. Like NYC says that a girl who kiss you is not far from having sex with you. Was it because the guide was written in the late 90s early 00s and kiss was more of a big deal for women?

This is before the era of flash game, where you could just lock eyes with a girl at a dance floor and make out with her, never to see her again.

Then, kisses didn't mean anything.

Nowadays, girls are looking for analingus.

Thanks Nicki Minaj,
WIA

 

[Witcher]

Thank you guys so many gold stuff here. So much that I had to take time to review everything.

@Bacchus

There's no substitute. . . for learning how to manage your conversations smoothly though. Additionally, if you internalize techs such as seductive topics and sex talk. Then you can stop worrying about whether or not she'll spread her legs for you. Because of the vast majority of the time. . . she will.

You mention seductive topics a lot and they seem like almost magic. So I'am going to learn them. Any ressource you would recommend beside your initial post?

@Skills

Night game you don't need to the venue change. Online, maybe day game and second encounter venue change increases your odds in my experience. Venue change is not necessarily a venue, it could be coffee shop to park etc... field test to see which one gives higher odds

I usually meet girls from online, social circle or extended social circle. My standard, for now, is a Coffee shop and park. Even if I still have to think about what to do in the park.

i forgot to add personality, i am a really high energy person if i were to do a date were i am sitting down in one place that would totally destroy my energy/charisma/vibe... me sitting in a coffee shop talking to a girl = a death sentence that would go against my personality of extremely active person by doing 3 bounces and moving around, specially walking that calms me down..... So personality style comes into place...

Got it. Here in my mind, it's a dual between what I like and how i should act. If you ask me what I would prefer, I would go for no venue change, I love to stay in one place and have a long conversation with me and the girl in a trance-like bubble. Even when I 'am with friends I am rarely the ones who propose venue change. Actually most of my coffee dates that were supposed to last 45 minutes to one hour end up last me way more. The girls usually tell me that they were not expecting that they will stay so long but they had such a good time.

However I'am looking for the method that increases my lay ratio. So if venu changes does this I will implement it if not I would be happy to have one or two venue max.

@WIA

I don't know if I said it in this thread, but "mix and match" style game when a guy doesn't have a solid foundation is the easiest way to get confused and not get any results.

There are so many options of game, that rather than focus on so-called effectiveness, a man should focus on a style that he wants to adopt.

What kind of PUA do you want to be? How do you want to pull girls? Because PUA is not about sex. You can use your hand, get a hooker, focus on girls that already know you, or find and fuck easy smashes. PUA is about choice.

Yes I'm guilty of that. First because I'm naturally very curious and that in the explanation of most methods and styles of games there is always some knowledge gap and holes that confuse me. So as a result I go search for the response in other methods coaches. Sometimes it's helpful, other times it fails.

For example, in Mark Manson's book Models which is good, on many levels his section on the dating process is very poor and confused me a lot. We have just one date template and heard "kiss her somewhere during this date" then pull her home. But it raised in me many other questions, like what if I can't pull her home?

In the first situation, he's got the control. In the other 2, she has control. She's going with her wishes and her desires.

So, it was just two ways of doing the pull. One reactive which is best, however, we will not always have this luxury so we always need a proactive way of pulling her home.

Traditionally, guys look for any reason to get a girl alone, and then they want to run game on her at his place. That to me is asking for trouble.

That's a decision I make because I don't want to run that type of game. I'm not interested in running any kind of LMR buster.
I'm also the type of driver that will make 3 rights in order to make a left if the situation looks dodgy.

You might be more comfortable with that type of risk.

This is also a bit confusing to me if you can elaborate. Usually, we are advised for example to skip kissing until we pull her home are saying this is ineffective? Do your style of the game implies using multiples dates to reduce LMR?

Thanks again guys

 

[Skills]

Witcher, venue changes from online, and dates increased mine, and some of the people i taught that are civilian ratios, no just by a bit, but by almost 100% increase.... I would field test... i made a post and video, breaking it down... In some cases if i was not 100% sure the lay would happen, i would do a second 3 bounce venue change... Again, night game i barely did venue changes more bubbles...

 

[Witcher]

Witcher, venue changes from online, and dates increased mine, and some of the people i taught that are civilian ratios, no just by a bit, but by almost 100% increase.... I would field test... i made a post and video, breaking it down... In some cases if i was not 100% sure the lay would happen, i would do a second 3 bounce venue change... Again, night game i barely did venue changes more bubbles...

I remember now, you gave me these links on nextASF, definitely will try to implement this then. At least One bounce from Coffee shop to the park.
Thanks man

 

[Skills]

I remember now, you gave me these links on nextASF, definitely will try to implement this then. At least One bounce from Coffee shop to the park.
Thanks man

i recommend 3 bounces not 2 bounces...

 

[Witcher]

i recommend 3 bounces not 2 bounces...

Now that I re-watched your video, it makes more sense. However I will have to consciously put a reminder to ask the girl to move, like I was reviewing almost all my social interactions, even with friends, I'm rarely the one who suggests moving to some other place. Seems like I enjoy just sitting and talking or maybe is just agreeableness.

The concept of seduction oriented topics was initially presented by Riker. This course is long. . . very long. . . did I warn you it is long. Because his goal is to teach you verbal game. . . from the ground up. So I recommend it to students of the game at the intermediate level and above who want better verbals.

Seems like the ideal course for the Lockdown then. Just one more thing about it, is the content heavily based on the subtleties of English linguistic or can we easily apply it to other languages?