Accusations

[mirj23]

Had my first run in with someone who became unhappy after the fact. Didn't have sex (thank god) but nonetheless they were very upset afterwards and it kinda shook me up. It was weird because I never even remotely thought she was uninterested in escalating, and there were a variety of things she did that strongly indicated interest/enjoyment. Don't think it'd be helpful to anyone here to dig through specifics, but regardless of the fact that I don't think any reasonable third party would condone my behavior, she was negatively impacted and I would like to avoid that in the future. I know GC really pushes fast sex, but this experience is making me doubt that this is universally the right approach. Id personally rather trade losing some women to missing escalation windows if it means preventing this situation in the future.

Anyone know of any way of minimizing/avoiding these kind of miscommunications? I will try to screen out girls like her in the future, but Im a little scared that I wont be able to practically learn from this.

 

[MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla]

I am reading your post right now and I feel like it is missing alot of context.

Can you explain a little further? For example, I've had many approaches and also many near miss lays where Ive had chicks get into what I would call a, "Self reinforcing loop" and it wasn't because of anything that I did it was just the way she was. Whether that was because she had a bad diet, work issues, self esteem issues, on her period, etc...etc... Wasn't something that I really proded any further into. I more or less just nexted and continued forward.

I can't give a concrete comment until we have a little more information. If you mention how you met, how date/pull went. We have an action report section and that usually helps us.

 

[PalmaSailor]

Had my first run in with someone who became unhappy after the fact. Didn't have sex (thank god) but nonetheless they were very upset afterwards and it kinda shook me up. It was weird because I never even remotely thought she was uninterested in escalating, and there were a variety of things she did that strongly indicated interest/enjoyment. Don't think it'd be helpful to anyone here to dig through specifics, but regardless of the fact that I don't think any reasonable third party would condone my behavior, she was negatively impacted and I would like to avoid that in the future. I know GC really pushes fast sex, but this experience is making me doubt that this is universally the right approach. Id personally rather trade losing some women to missing escalation windows if it means preventing this situation in the future.

Anyone know of any way of minimizing/avoiding these kind of miscommunications? I will try to screen out girls like her in the future, but Im a little scared that I wont be able to practically learn from this.

I think you need to give us specifics if you want proper comment.
It should have been fun all round.
You need to give us a proper field report to assess what happened.

 

[mirj23]

Yeah, I was probably a bit light on the context because I don't really want to post about it online, but I can try and specify a bit more. Daygame approach at a Target where we were both shopping (~10 minutes talking when we first met), set up a date and at the date we ended up heading back to her place since she didn't have any roommates to "chill and watch a movie". Escalated a few times, she was very into it, but said she didn't want to have sex. I was very nonchalant about this and didn't pressure her at all. Everything started winding down and we finished the show and we were both happy and I politely told her I should get going. She called me back in once I started leaving, and after pulling me in and making out with me (more aggressively this time), I ended up fingering her while she jerked me off. She was very into the fingering, vocally expressed that she wanted me to go deeper etc. After she came, she transitioned to focusing exclusively on me. After I came, she became very distant and eventually said that she had wanted to stop when she transitioned to finishing me off, but didn't know how I'd react. The lights were off and I had 0 idea she wasn't into it. I slept over, but in the morning we talked and she said she was very mad about the night, and basically said I violated her consent. Havent talked with her after I left her place.

That's the gist of it. I'm a good looking guy with experience and nothing seemed out of the ordinary other than the ending. I checked in with her from a consent perspective multiple times while we were mutually masturbating (because she seemed cautious earlier in the night), so its weird to me that she would expect me to check in with her when she started focusing exclusively on me a few minutes later.

Im very careful in general, and have a lot of close female friends who have been assaulted, so it really freaked me out to feel like I contributed to someone feeling that way, even though I definitely don't think I did anything wrong logically. I don't think this is a case of "I fucked up" and more think its a numbers game. ie the more active you are, the more likely you will run into a woman who thinks that any miscommunication during sex is exclusively the guys fault. Hence why I'm not really looking for specifics on this situation, and moreso am looking for tips on how to avoid girls like her, or screen out women who maybe don't feel like they can always say no to a guy (despite me explicitly telling her I was totally fine with whatever she decided to do and trying to leave earlier in the night). Regardless, I definitely could be missing something, so if anything jumps out as something I did wrong, I'm all ears.

Thanks a ton for the help guys, let me know if you need more info.

 

[Will_V]

To be honest, she sounds a bit unstable. But I think you probably also violated her expectations as well.

Jerking someone off is not a full sexual experience, and doing it is not something that necessarily creates a 'pleasure bubble' in the same way that sex does. When a woman is being fucked, as long as the guy is doing a decent job, she is fully immersed by default, and reality fades away. But jerking off, or even probably blowjobs, isn't like that. Unless there is intimacy between you, for the person doing it, it can seem mechanical and emotionless and it's easy to be distracted by other thoughts and anxieties.

So picture this, the woman has invited you to her place, initially (maybe?) not planning on having sex with you, you made her cum (maybe?) and now she's in the pitch dark, holding a guy's dick who she doesn't even know, wondering whether it was a good idea, and why am I holding his dick if he's not going to fuck me and I've already decided that I don't want to fuck him even though I wanted to but then it just didn't feel right and he couldn't make me want to even though I definitely wanted him to make me want to at least at first and ... well, not in those words, probably just a swirl of anxieties and feelings of confusion.

Now that in itself wasn't the main mistake. I think if you had left, you wouldn't have had a problem, she would have just written it off. The BIG mistake you did was to sleep over after NOT fucking her which tipped her over the edge. The next day she's like, what the hell is this? Here's this guy who I don't want to have sex with (or who failed to make me want to have sex with him), lying next to me or in my house all night like some kind of weird customer, imagine if he had tried something during the night after I decided that I didn't want to? How on earth did this happen?

He must have manipulated me!!!

And there you have it.

...

My advice would be two things:

1) When a girl is giving a hand job or a blow job, she's not being sexually satisfied, she's doing it for validation. It's up to you to give it to her, massaging and caressing her neck and shoulders and tits, playing with her hair, making her suck your fingers, giving her admiring eye contact, talking dirty and getting her to agree to sexual statements like "I know you like X don't you?" "I know you want me to do X to you."

The thing about this is that it's very easy to know when things are not going right, because you're constantly watching her and eliciting pleasure and feedback from her, and giving her the attention and appreciation she needs to feel comfortable with what she's doing.

2) NEVER sleep over after not fucking a girl. The only thing that can make a woman not feel weird about waking up next to a stranger is having been fucked by him. When you have bedded a woman, she has already surrendered everything to you, she and everything she has belongs to you now. So there's no problem you being there because you own her. But if you haven't, do not hang around, weirding her out and preventing her from returning to a comfortably independent state.

Probably many guys would advise you to avoid her now, but personally, I would offer to meet her and talk it over (and (only in person) start off by acknowledging the two mistakes that I believe you made) showing her that you understand her reality and her feelings and care about them. Meeting up in a neutral public place and talking about things is a great way to reframe a weird encounter into something you can both just laugh off as awkward, and also if she came out to meet you that's not going to look congruent if she had any thoughts about taking it further.

 

[mirj23]

To be honest, she sounds a bit unstable. But I think you probably also violated her expectations as well.

Jerking someone off is not a full sexual experience, and doing it is not something that necessarily creates a 'pleasure bubble' in the same way that sex does. When a woman is being fucked, as long as the guy is doing a decent job, she is fully immersed by default, and reality fades away. But jerking off, or even probably blowjobs, isn't like that. Unless there is intimacy between you, for the person doing it, it can seem mechanical and emotionless and it's easy to be distracted by other thoughts and anxieties.

So picture this, the woman has invited you to her place, initially (maybe?) not planning on having sex with you, you made her cum (maybe?) and now she's in the pitch dark, holding a guy's dick who she doesn't even know, wondering whether it was a good idea, and why am I holding his dick if he's not going to fuck me and I've already decided that I don't want to fuck him even though I wanted to but then it just didn't feel right and he couldn't make me want to even though I definitely wanted him to make me want to at least at first and ... well, not in those words, probably just a swirl of anxieties and feelings of confusion.

Now that in itself wasn't the main mistake. I think if you had left, you wouldn't have had a problem, she would have just written it off. The BIG mistake you did was to sleep over after NOT fucking her which tipped her over the edge. The next day she's like, what the hell is this? Here's this guy who I don't want to have sex with (or who failed to make me want to have sex with him), lying next to me or in my house all night like some kind of weird customer, imagine if he had tried something during the night after I decided that I didn't want to? How on earth did this happen?

He must have manipulated me!!!

And there you have it.

...

My advice would be two things:

1) When a girl is giving a hand job or a blow job, she's not being sexually satisfied, she's doing it for validation. It's up to you to give it to her, massaging and caressing her neck and shoulders and tits, playing with her hair, making her suck your fingers, giving her admiring eye contact, talking dirty and getting her to agree to sexual statements like "I know you like X don't you?" "I know you want me to do X to you."

The thing about this is that it's very easy to know when things are not going right, because you're constantly watching her and eliciting pleasure and feedback from her, and giving her the attention and appreciation she needs to feel comfortable with what she's doing.

2) NEVER sleep over after not fucking a girl. The only thing that can make a woman not feel weird about waking up next to a stranger is having been fucked by him. When you have bedded a woman, she has already surrendered everything to you, she and everything she has belongs to you now. So there's no problem you being there because you own her. But if you haven't, do not hang around, weirding her out and preventing her from returning to a comfortably independent state.

Probably many guys would advise you to avoid her now, but personally, I would offer to meet her and talk it over (and (only in person) start off by acknowledging the two mistakes that I believe you made) showing her that you understand her reality and her feelings and care about them. Meeting up in a neutral public place and talking about things is a great way to reframe a weird encounter into something you can both just laugh off as awkward, and also if she came out to meet you that's not going to look congruent if she had any thoughts about taking it further.

Ooh, point 1 is a super solid one. I didn't say much while I was the only one receiving, and I think that definitely added to the feeling you are describing. Good read there. Point 2 seems reasonable as well, at the time I figured that leaving early would add to the feeling that I was just using her, but maybe you're right on this one as well. I'm on the fence about suggesting a meet up. I was very taken a back by some of the language she used afterwards, and while Im sure some people would be able to do this, I am not confident that I would make things better for either one of us if we met up again. I'll have to think on it some more.

Thanks a ton for the actionable advice, its very helpful!!

 

[Will_V]

Ooh, point 1 is a super solid one. I didn't say much while I was the only one receiving, and I think that definitely added to the feeling you are describing. Good read there. Point 2 seems reasonable as well, at the time I figured that leaving early would add to the feeling that I was just using her, but maybe you're right on this one as well. I'm on the fence about suggesting a meet up. I was very taken a back by some of the language she used afterwards, and while Im sure some people would be able to do this, I am not confident that I would make things better for either one of us if we met up again. I'll have to think on it some more.

Thanks a ton for the actionable advice, its very helpful!!

Maybe better just to let it be then, if she's really upset and you weren't able to get thru at all, it might just protract the drama.

I would just add that the ending is crucial in all things, after sex (or even a sexual experience) it's important to take care of her feelings by giving attention and validation, and reinforcing your positive frame of what just happened. Even directly complimenting her works. Doing this can turn a wtf experience into a 'can we do it again?' one, because it becomes validating for her.

Validation is everything for a woman, and whenever she does something good, especially sexually, a man must be ready to give it in abundance.

 

[Beck Bass]

2) NEVER sleep over after not fucking a girl

I kinda have to disagree with this, in fact, I have slept with a girl I've never fucked before and we ended up fucking over the night (this girl just took her tits out and woke me up lmao, she was giving me quite some LMR before and I just told her, ok, I'm going to sleep). It depends a lot on the vibe and the interaction between you and the girl. If she clearly doesn't wanna fuck you, and you tried it, yeah, don't do it, it's stupid (I find it hard to believe the girl would allow you to, though).

On the whole topic of fast escalation, you should escalate as fast as the girl allows you to, but you have to be reading her all the time, testing progessively for higher compliance (the highest level being full on sex, of course), specially if you're unsure.
If you're bad at reading girls, or you're having trouble reading this one girl, or course you should hit the break a bit and proceed slowly. If you're too eager, not only you risk this type of backlash, but you often lose the girl because you fuck up, due to your lack of calibration.

The whole move fast thing is to get guys on a mindset to close, not to rush them into the abyss lol
You can only the close if the girl allows you to. Never forget that. Make the girl "chase" first (accept your advances).

 

[Will_V]

I kinda have to disagree with this, in fact, I have slept with a girl I've never fucked before and we ended up fucking over the night (this girl just took her tits out and woke me up lmao, she was giving me quite some LMR before and I just told her, ok, I'm going to sleep). It depends a lot on the vibe and the interaction between you and the girl. If she clearly doesn't wanna fuck you, and you tried it, yeah, don't do it, it's stupid (I find it hard to believe the girl would allow you to, though).

On the whole topic of fast escalation, you should escalate as fast as the girl allows you to, but you have to be reading her all the time, testing progessively for higher compliance (the highest level being full on sex, of course), specially if you're unsure.
If you're bad at reading girls, or you're having trouble reading this one girl, or course you should hit the break a bit and proceed slowly. If you're too eager, not only you risk this type of backlash, but you often lose the girl because you fuck up, due to your lack of calibration.

The whole move fast thing is to get guys on a mindset to close, not to rush them into the abyss lol
You can only the close if the girl allows you to. Never forget that. Make the girl "chase" first (accept your advances).

Fair, I suppose the main question is whether the vibe is off or not.

I have had a girl sleep over at mine who was shy and wouldn't let me take her panties off, but the vibe was good, I cuddled her and kissed her after as if we had just had sex, and next time she came over there was very little LMR.

Personally, I wouldn't sleep over at hers without sex first, unless she was doing stuff for me and really in my frame, or otherwise it's too easy imo to acquire a clingy vibe. My company is a reward that I don't offer for nothing, and lounging around at some girls house after she refuses me doesn't set the frame I want.

 

[mirj23]

On the whole topic of fast escalation, you should escalate as fast as the girl allows you to, but you have to be reading her all the time, testing progessively for higher compliance (the highest level being full on sex, of course), specially if you're unsure.
If you're bad at reading girls, or you're having trouble reading this one girl, or course you should hit the break a bit and proceed slowly. If you're too eager, not only you risk this type of backlash, but you often lose the girl because you fuck up, due to your lack of calibration.

Yeah, that was the weird thing, I've had sex with with ~20 girls and always thought I was good at reading people. And with this one, I was confident she was into it the entire time. All it takes is one interaction to prove you wrong I guess.

Before this experience, I would have assumed from a similar story that the guy did something uncalibrated, or was inexperienced. Now Im wondering if this is just something that anyone with a reasonable level of experience has to deal with at some point. In my case, I at the very least made a couple of mistakes (not being vocal while receiving was probably a large part of the objectification feeling), but Im sure there are cases even less logical than mine. Im worrying that I may have naively assumed that those cases were more rare than they really are before this.

That being said, I hope I can avoid this type of stuff if I make sure to keep the lights on dim at least, am vocal like Will mentioned, and maybe screen a bit better.

Thanks everyone

 

[Will_V]

Yeah, that was the weird thing, I've had sex with with ~20 girls and always thought I was good at reading people. And with this one, I was confident she was into it the entire time. All it takes is one interaction to prove you wrong I guess.

Before this experience, I would have assumed from a similar story that the guy did something uncalibrated, or was inexperienced. Now Im wondering if this is just something that anyone with a reasonable level of experience has to deal with at some point. In my case, I at the very least made a couple of mistakes (not being vocal while receiving was probably a large part of the objectification feeling), but Im sure there are cases even less logical than mine. Im worrying that I may have naively assumed that those cases were more rare than they really are before this.

That being said, I hope I can avoid this type of stuff if I make sure to keep the lights on dim at least, am vocal like Will mentioned, and maybe screen a bit better.

Thanks everyone

I wouldn't worry about it too much, women get mad about far smaller things. This life has its risks but so does everything else, a man just has to learn to face it down to get what he wants.

The goal is to be able to read women like the palm of your hand, and that is always going to take a few scratches along the way.

 

[Beck Bass]

Before this experience, I would have assumed from a similar story that the guy did something uncalibrated, or was inexperienced.

I guess shit just happens sometimes, I approached hundreds of girls at night clubs for like almost 5 years, and never had a problem, except one night that there weren't many good girls to approach, so I saw this cute delicate girl turned to the bar, I went to approach her, but I kinda came from behind, since she was turned to the bar, when I got near and touched her arm, lightly, to pre open (almost necessary in loud clubs), her girl friend became possesed or something, she fucking pushed me like a guy picking a fight would, like I was trying to abuse her friend or something. I almost tripped and fell, she pushed me really strongly, it almost felt like a punch or something. My blood boiled and I almost felt like fighting this girl, but thankfully I was able to recover reason and just leave.
Even if you're mostly calibrated and have good game, sometimes people will just misunderstand you and try to undermine you in some way. Sometimes you're able to avoid this people, which would be ideal, but if you're really putting yourself out there, eventually it will happen. Thankfully it won't be that big of a deal, most of the time.

 

[Chase]

@jacobiansimmons,

Distressing, I'm sure.

I don't see any clear indications from what you wrote that she was going to be trouble you could use to avoid similar situations.

It sounds like a standard case of buyer's remorse after you got her off, then you spent the night and did nothing to re-seduce her. She had a full night for that buyer's remorse to blossom into outright resentment.

A lot of Western women (especially American women) do not have a good vocabulary to verbalize their emotions today. The ones that have been heavily inculcated in feminist philosophy will turn to consent/violation charges to try to explain how they feel.

If you watch an old movie, or if you travel outside the feminist bubble, you will see/experience women get similarly upset, but they'll say things like, "That was NOT what I expected!" or "That's NOT how you treat a lady!" or "Really -- I am not that kind of girl!"

The emotion behind it is exactly the same. It's just that in the Anglosphere it's weaponized and potentially ruinous to a man's career/reputation/freedom.

The non-weaponized version is easier for a man to react to naturally, because he gets the woman's emotion, without it being strapped to a threat. In the West, men are getting hit with an emotion that is strapped to a threat. The woman might not even intend the threat when she says it, but the man is perceiving it that way.

The best way to react to this sort of thing is to treat the underlying emotion while outwardly ignoring the threat. e.g., "All right, well talk to me. Where did things switch from 'good' to 'not what I wanted' for you?" Focus on getting her to remember she was having a good time. Evoke those emotions, then if possible get her to explain why she kept going or why she didn't stop you when you were doing something that she participated in (the aim is to rewrite some of the historical rewriting she's done, where things she enjoyed last night became things she felt ashamed to enjoy, then later things she decided she did not enjoy and was coerced into, and get her to start removing that false narrative she has in her head and coming back closer to something like the real chain of events). Pace her reality and move back into a seductive tone. Then re-seduce her if possible, having her affirm all the while that she is enjoying things as you go.

Also, just to add, my personal best practices -- no orgasms for women until your penis is inside them.

You can get her all hot and bothered with your finger or your tongue... but until your penis is in her, she can't cum.

Notice she had no problem to consenting to you fingering her to orgasm. She is also not claiming a problem putting her hand on your penis before she climaxed.

But her finishing you off after she finished -- that's where she says the problem started.

Chase's rule of "No orgasms for women until your dick's in them" strikes again

Chase

 

[Beck Bass]

The emotion behind it is exactly the same. It's just that in the Anglosphere it's weaponized and potentially ruinous to a man's career/reputation/freedom.

Very true. My ex told me she regretted having sex with me once, telling me she didn't "consent", and she "didn't want to", but we had it anyways. We had an open relationship and sometimes I would go out to clubs near her appartment to pull some girls, I obviously wouldn't tell her "hey I'm going out to fuck other girls", but she would keep on texting me to fish for where I was, and sometimes she would tell me to go sleep with her after when she knew/thought I was around.
This particular day I was quite drunk, but I remember very well she wanted me there, and when I got there, she didn't do anything to stop me from touching, kissing and eventually having sex with her. But afterwards, she was clearly upset, telling me I would only go for her after I didn't have success in pulling some other girl. I conforted her, telling her if I was there, it's because I wanted her, and she kinda got over it.
But it really gave me a terrible feeling having a girl telling me she didn't consent or didn't want to have sex with me and had it anyway, like you tell me to go to your appartment, let me do sexual things with you and then tell me you didn't consent because you felt bad afterwards? Get fucking real.
Thankfully we talked about it and it wasn't that big of a deal, we had great sex hundreds of times, and this was the only occassion she said something like that.

 

[Will_V]

The problem with consent for women is theres no clear line for them between consent that is given and consent that is elicited. Unfortunately for modern concepts of autonomy, the biological concept of female consent is more like going into an irresistible, mind numbing state of arousal than actually thinking clearly 'hmm well actually yes I do'. This means that when this state of arousal teeters on the border, or changes suddenly, a woman cannot clearly remember deciding 'yes'. As hard as it might be for many to accept, a woman can become fully aroused and enjoy sex without ever deciding to, and even after deciding not to.

This is something men must understand whether they like it or not. Nature did not conceive of modern ideas around many kinds of things, and wherever nature is hidden and whitewashed, chaos will seep out.

Now that we know that women backward rationalize rather than decide in advance, a couple of things become important in my opinion. First, your strongest shield against buyers remorse is to express genuine desire and attention for her during and especially after the fact. The purpose of kissing and cuddling after sex is for her to be able to backward rationalize positively, and when she does something like give you a blowjob, it's your attention and desire and focus on her during that that overwrites with delight and validation her foggy memory of whether she really consented or really wanted it.

As strange as it sounds, I believe that the right level of assertion and dominance is your your best security. A woman is a vessel, and it is incumbent on you to fill her to the top with your reality, sweetened with your desire for her. If you just dribble bits of your reality in there, or through indecisiveness allow her anxieties to get in there as well, they will solidify into whatever best suits her situation and possibly change entirely the result.

So guys, when you seduce women, do it with all your heart, boldly, and when your dick is inside her, don't be afraid to tell her she's beautiful, or tastes fucking delicious, or feels incredible. And treat her afterward with the appreciation she deserves. When she's in that position, the relationship power dynamic is wholly in your favor, do not waste the opportunity to write your positive frame into her reality.

 

[mirj23]

The best way to react to this sort of thing is to treat the underlying emotion while outwardly ignoring the threat. e.g., "All right, well talk to me. Where did things switch from 'good' to 'not what I wanted' for you?" Focus on getting her to remember she was having a good time. Evoke those emotions, then if possible get her to explain why she kept going or why she didn't stop you when you were doing something that she participated in (the aim is to rewrite some of the historical rewriting she's done, where things she enjoyed last night became things she felt ashamed to enjoy, then later things she decided she did not enjoy and was coerced into, and get her to start removing that false narrative she has in her head and coming back closer to something like the real chain of events). Pace her reality and move back into a seductive tone. Then re-seduce her if possible, having her affirm all the while that she is enjoying things as you go.

This makes sense to me, feels vaguely similar to the best way that I've found to handle most arguments (minus the reseduction). I think I need to read more about pacing her reality then, I think I've seen a couple articles about it.

The no orgasm rule makes sense I think. I'm reading it as, if she orgasms prior to doing something mechanical like a hj, then she will certainly enjoy that activity less, and very well might see that activity in a different light than had she still been aroused while it happened.

Was really glad to have your input here. Situation definitely freaked me out a bit.

 

[PalmaSailor]

I’m still concluding my thoughts on this.

however it’s going to be along the lines that women only want to bang men that they look up to / are dominant / alpha.

now you didn’t bang her, but you got her to the state where she “let you” get her off. Because she’d got off, she felt “obliged” to get you off. Or “repay” the favour.

I think that’s very dangerous territory. You providing the “service” of getting a woman off pitches you below her. It’s a DLV. Why do you owe her that shit? It’s because you want something in return = sex. So it’s negotiated desire.

as a rule, I’d say you fuck them or you don’t. If there’s too much LMR then the seduction hasn’t worked properly, and you should walk. Don’t get women off for “free”.

she wants to delete it from her memory, I suggest no more contact