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FR  An eventful 1st date

Winston

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 4, 2021
Messages
145
So let's start with my first FR.

I opened this girls in a library, she had her hands full of books and was looking for another one.
I looked at the same book shelf next to her, and opened:
Excuse me, you seem to know literature well, do you have a book to recommend me? I am looking for an interesting book.

The interaction went extremely well, the girl clearly liked it a lot. After 4 minutes I asked for her name.
Her: I didn't know that we could meet people at the bookstore
Me: Me neither
Her: Do you live in this district?
Me: No not at all, I came to this store with a friend and... and that's it... I saw you with your hands full of books, and you looked nice"
After 5 minutes I propose to take a coffea at another time. She enthusiastically accepts.

This interaction was almost perfect. It was during a coaching session and therefore my coach listened to the interaction. He debriefed me "if you put this interaction on Youtube and say you are a coach, everybody would believe it". This was one of my best interaction ever. I was 100% sure that she woud show up for a date.

--------------------
The date is set up 3 days later, a Saturday at 19h00.

She arrives on time, she seems a bit stressed. We meet 2 minutes away from the bar where I bring her.
We ordered a glass of wine. Quickly we understood that we come from the same part our country, which add to the connection. She asked me many questions about me. We talk about books and our respective occupations.

At the end of the first glass of wine I propose to cook us something at my place, she refused.
This created akwardness, an embarassing silence and hurt the vibe. I proposed to take another glass of wine, she told me "as you wish". I thought the date was pretty much over at this stage, but I managed to recreate complicity and a good vibe with this second drink. We talk about books, history and politics, I know this is not recommended to talk about politics during seduction, but I understood that we add compatible views and she was keen to talk about that. During this second glass of wine, she proposed me to go to a museum because it was a special day and museum were free this night.

She teased me "I will tell you something once we left the bar". She insisted to split the bill and we left.
As soon as we were in the street, she told me that she was the former mistress of someone very famous in our country (a political and controversial figure), let's call him "Mister X". I think the previous political discussion and the understanding that I will not judge her negatively because of his controversial political nature made her comfortable telling me that.

During the walk to the museum the conversation become very sexualised. I ask her detail about Mister X, because well it was such an amazing news and I was really curious about their relationship and wanted some crisp details. She also asked me about sex, if I had any sexual deviance...

At the museum she took the selfie in a mirror of both us standing straight side by side. She send me the picture after the date. By looking at that picture, I saw that I was slightly leaning towards her while she was standing straight. So I think at that point my body language projected neediness, and in my head I was probably "too happy to be with her".
I think I became needy because the fact that she was the mistress of someone famous increased her value in my eyes but also because I put to much pressure on myself to have a result with this girl who seemed to like me so much.

At the end of our visit, I tried to kiss her in the garden of the museum because the garden was beautiful, so I was thinking this is a romantic setting. She refused because there were too much people around. She took my hand instead, and we were walking while holding hands. I was a bit embarassed because I thought hands holding during walk is too much, I wasn't even doing that when with my ex girlfriend. I think I should have proposed her to hold my arm instead but I just followed her lead because I was thinking about the failed kiss close and was thinking this was rather good: "we are touching each other", "she see my as a pontential boyfriend".

Then after walking about in the street I told her "well, we need to find somewhere where there is not much people", she anwsered "no need to be too extreme about that". And I kissed her while holding her by the waist. We made out, I think it's her who used the tongue first.

Then we walk aimlessly in the street. I asked her if she want to come at my place drinking wine (so this was my second pull attempt). She told me no.
I was a bit disapointed because I thought the date was going well. I told her in a tone that wanted to be humourous: "I am sure you weren't so diffcult with Mister X"
She answered: "How do you know? with him too I was complicated". And she didn't seem to be offended by my sentence at that time.

Then I asked about her holidays, she told me she was leaving on Wednesday. And one week later I was leaving for one month. So the logistics situation was even worse than I had anticipated.
Me: Well it's better to see us this Monday or Tuesday before we both go in holidays, don't you think so? I could cook us something at my place
Her: You live far
Me : Well then invite me to see your library (we talk about her librabry during the initial interaction)
She: Yes but I don't cook
Me: We will order something
She didn't really answered something. I think I was too much pushy here, because of a mix of the holidays situation, neediness, and a wrong sense of entilment.

We keep walking at some point she talk me about the approach:
Her: Do you do that often? Did you approach other women that day?
Me: No I don't approach often, only when I see is a girl that I like, sometimes it goes well, sometimes it goes less well, but with you it went particularly well (I think my answer was really bad, I was trying to explain things logically)
Her: It's funny, you are a bit shy... but I like it
When she said "but I like it" she threw herself at me and we made out very sexually. While making out I hold with one hand the back of her head, I think quite dominantly, it lasts maybe 30 seconds.

Then we went downstairs within the subway station, we had our masks on.
Before we part ways, she said "it was a good first date". And I try to do something silly, because I was still in the euphoria of the last make out, I wanted to kiss her goodbye with our masks on.
She didn't comply and said: "I find this lame with the mask", which sucks because it was pretty much the last thing we said before we part ways. So it ended on a bad note. The whole date lasts around 3 hours.
-------------------
The next day I proposed to do a second date at a pizza restaurant (because I understood she didn't want to set it up at one of our place).

She anwsered me:
It was nice but I didn't like your "I am sure you weren't so complicated with Mister X". I found it super degrading and it cooled me down
I don't feel like having pizza or going any further with you. But I still had a good evening and I wish you a good continuation.


I answered : It wasn't my intention and I don't remember saying it that way. I had a good evening too, I wish you many good things.

Then after 30 minutes she said "We can see us again but 1) don't be so needy 2) after the holidays"

I answered "ok we will talk about it another time, good holidays"
Then I ping her one week later and, 4 days later, she answered the bare minimum.

And now, a few weeks later, I see that she blocked me.
-------------------
So that's it. I think my main mistakes were:
- tried to pull to soon after the first drink
- too needy, wrong sense of entiltment. I should learn to show my desire without sounding needy, but it's easier said than done.
- she also felt that I was "shy", which sucks. But I have no idea how to fix that because it's hard to decide to be "more confident"

Keep in my mind that many of my previous dates went nowhere because the conversation was too boring and not man to woman. So even if I came accross as too needy, the fact that that there were several kisses during the date is a form of progress for me.

Any feedback is appreciated.
 
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Stark

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jun 11, 2021
Messages
129
So let's start with my first FR.

I opened this girls in a library, she had her hands full of books and was looking for another one.
I looked at the same book shelf next to her, and opened:
Excuse me, you seem to know literature well, do you have a book to recommend me? I am looking for an interesting book.

The interaction went extremely well, the girl clearly liked it a lot. After 4 minutes I asked for her name.
Her: I didn't know that we could meet people at the bookstore
Me: Me neither
Good work. Nice way to bump into her with an innocuous question - especially in a quieter venue like a library

Before we part ways, she said "it was a good first date". And I try to do something silly, because I was still in the euphoria of the last make out, I wanted to kiss her goodbye with our masks on.
She didn't comply and said: "I find this lame with the mask", which sucks because it was pretty much the last thing we said before we part ways.

You did most of the things right. I would just hold back on kissing her on first date though.
Let her wonder what it would be like to kiss you.
And let that anticipation build.

That's the easiest way to beat LMR - and get her to follow you to your place - without much resistance.

Unless you see that she is downright DTF and you know you just can't fuck it up - then go for it.
But it's not a good idea to kiss her hoping to increase BT.
It would just spike her ASD.

Then after 30 minutes she said "We can see us again but 1) don't be so needy

Most of your success with picking up women and retention can be summed up in that advice - "Be Non-Needy".

Real non-neediness comes with experience and having options.

If you're not there yet, "fake it till you make it"

Pretend that you don't care if you never see her again(while being polite).

Looks like the doors are closed with this girl, but try this attitude on new girls.

- she also felt that I was "shy", which sucks. But I have no idea how to fix that because it's hard to decide to be "more confident"

Confidence and non-neediness(outcome independence) flow from your body language.

Look at some good examples(movies) of what confidence and outcome independence looks like.

Practice standing, walking, and talking like those men.

It would take time and practice - one step at a time.

Keep in my mind that many of my previous dates went nowhere because the conversation was too boring and not man to woman. So even if I came accross as too needy, the fact that that there were several kisses during the date is a form of progress for me.

You're doing great man. I have committed worse mistakes in my earlier days of game.

Very soon each of these positive experiences will build on top of each other.

Keep hitting on girls you fancy!
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Lobo

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Messages
209

I recommend reading this article, as I think the main reason for your low ratios is a bad social frame and one of the signs that you have a bad social frame is... that girls will stop themselves from getting too aroused by you(Female State Control)


This article goes into detail on what FSC is and what causes it. Additionally, it talks about Anti Slut Defense(ASD) which I believe is something that happened in your seduction, and you triggered it as well.
"I am sure you weren't so diffcult with Mister X"
Regardless of a humorous tone, the underlying frame of what you say here is that the girl is "easy" and that she ought to be "easy" with you. Girls don't want to be known as "easy" as that limits their social power and makes them look bad to friends, family, and society.

Instead, how about you frame sex as natural and non-slutty, while sexual-prizing yourself and implying discretion... to make her want to fuck you, badly.

Additionally, to avoid FSC, which Vision mentioned a little, you want to avoid over escalating before you are in isolation. Get her too aroused and she starts to back herself off, which WILL make her resist going home with you when she likely would have if she had not started to back off. Or at least, don't try to go for the pull when she is in a resistant state.

I also recommend giving @Lofty 's post here a look and read the links, and develop an understanding of arousing and tempting the girls, which I see as turning her on without giving her any release for that(until she can't take it anymore and is begging for you to be inside of her), which I say have been pivotal in my last two days where the girls have begged me to penetrate them. I do this by escalating just a little bit slower than what she would like, teasing the most pleasurable areas, and using my verbals with a deep sexy voice to arouse her with whatever I say. But the key point to understand here is, the more turned on she is, the crazier things she is willing to do to fuck you(and will help you get there), such as taking you by a highway, or... in a park with lots of traffic. This relies on you having workable social frame, however, and she won't go into FSC on the slightest bit of arousal. Now, I've realized a lot of my game is on turning the girl on without giving her that release, but calibration is needed for what she can take at the moment. So in the opener, I'm not touching her as I would during escalation, but instead, slightly arousing her with my sexual vibe and building sexual tension. Now that I think of it, you might also want to give the concept of liminality a look(it's when there's this bubble between you and your girl and nothing else exists) as it really helps with avoiding FSC as long as you can maintain it, or be the one to break it first.

Also, it is worth considering who was in control of this interaction as it certainly was not you. If you want to up your odds and not have your lays based on luck and the whims of whatever the girl was feeling at that moment, you will need to learn to practice a dominant meta frame(This is probably the most important article for you) and lead your interactions in the way that the girl wants to be lead(not triggering her FSC/ASD).

Now that I think of this, the way you try to pull this girl triggers her ASD... this is not how she wants to be lead. "let's go back to my place for some wine" translates to "lets go back to my place so I can fuck you." You can either arouse her to the point where sex is desirable for her, or you can try to pull with better plausible deniability. Keep in mind though, girls are not dumb, and they know going back to your place means the possibility for sex. So sex with you has to at least be desirable for her which can be done by communicating that you are a sexual man who can give girls treasured experiences.

I hope you take the time to give most if not all of these links a look as I believe a fundamental understanding of these concepts will supercharge your game to the next level, and will lead to less frustration in field. (it also took me time to put this together haha)
 

Beck Bass

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Mar 9, 2020
Messages
638
Her: Do you do that often? Did you approach other women that day?
Me: No I don't approach often, only when I see is a girl that I like, sometimes it goes well, sometimes it goes less well, but with you it went particularly well (I think my answer was really bad, I was trying to explain things logically)
Her: It's funny, you are a bit shy... but I like it
When she said "but I like it" she threw herself at me and we made out very sexually. While making out I hold with one hand the back of her head, I think quite dominantly, it lasts maybe 30 seconds.
Really nice answer, your approach was quite good as well, good job on that.

It was nice but I didn't like your "I am sure you weren't so complicated with Mister X". I found it super degrading and it cooled me down
Yep you triggered her state control there, I think saying it like this is a bit of slut shaming and kinda lame tbh, you're saying that she's easy for higher status guys, which sluts shames her a bit, and also implies you're not a high status guy (since she's not being easy with you). You should persisted in a more chill way and not talk so much about that other guy (when I'm with a girl I act like I'm the highest status guy she's ever been with, no matter what).
Basically you objectfied/sexualized her in a way she didn't enjoy and she didn't wanted to have sex with you because she felt like you saw her as an easy hoe, so you lost.

she also felt that I was "shy", which sucks
I often got that because I'm introverted, and I rarely give a fuck, I've heard it from unattractive girls and guys that couldn't get pussy from a dead cat, so I really didn't care, but also from girls I was banging, but I mean, you can tell me I'm shy while you choke on my dick, I have no problem with that ;D
Just make sure you have good posture and you're taking up space, if it's not hurting your fundamentals/how attracted girls are to you, then it's not a problem, really (in fact it can make you seem more attainable to the girl or even more similar to them, if they are shy or introverted as well)
 
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Darius

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
138
my 2 cents as a fellow noob -

this was one of your best learning experiences, and you got quite far with her :) I had to get many gut punches before I realised on an emotional level that being needy doesn't work to get you laid at all. Next time you meet some girl and your emotional self urges you to be needy, take a step back and remember this experience. Works every time for me.

And if it won't, you'll get as many experiences like this one as you need to learn, lol. That's the beauty of women, they are our best teachers.

During the walk to the museum the conversation become very sexualised. I ask her detail about Mister X, because well it was such an amazing news and I was really curious about their relationship and wanted some crisp details. She also asked me about sex, if I had any sexual deviance...
Heads up on this one, I would never keep talking with a girl I haven't bedded about her exes without contrasting myself to them, especially if they had high status / money / looks, etc.

The seduction is about you and her, reminding her about OTHER MEN that conquered her before you is shooting yourself in the foot cuz now she's going to compare you with them and be SUPER testy. If you're gonna do it make sure you have an edge on the guy, here you could have framed yourself as the sexier man given her ex had money and status. It's been my experience, every time I talked with a girl about exes and she didn't feel disgusted or disappointed by them she got VERY testy.

In fact I think that's one of the things that happened here, she thought she could get better lovers than you and therefore saw herself as higher status. Reason I'm saying that is that she was leading the frame all along after the second glass. She told you when it's ok or it's not ok to kiss. She grabbed your hand and lead you to places. Whereas when you met her you said she was nervous, which was actually a sign she saw you as higher status.

So next time a girl mentions her ex, either frame yourself as the better man, or better yet entertain her for a bit but quickly change subjects.
 

Winston

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 4, 2021
Messages
145

I recommend reading this article, as I think the main reason for your low ratios is a bad social frame and one of the signs that you have a bad social frame is... that girls will stop themselves from getting too aroused by you(Female State Control)


This article goes into detail on what FSC is and what causes it. Additionally, it talks about Anti Slut Defense(ASD) which I believe is something that happened in your seduction, and you triggered it as well.

Regardless of a humorous tone, the underlying frame of what you say here is that the girl is "easy" and that she ought to be "easy" with you. Girls don't want to be known as "easy" as that limits their social power and makes them look bad to friends, family, and society.

Instead, how about you frame sex as natural and non-slutty, while sexual-prizing yourself and implying discretion... to make her want to fuck you, badly.

Additionally, to avoid FSC, which Vision mentioned a little, you want to avoid over escalating before you are in isolation. Get her too aroused and she starts to back herself off, which WILL make her resist going home with you when she likely would have if she had not started to back off. Or at least, don't try to go for the pull when she is in a resistant state.

I also recommend giving @Lofty 's post here a look and read the links, and develop an understanding of arousing and tempting the girls, which I see as turning her on without giving her any release for that(until she can't take it anymore and is begging for you to be inside of her), which I say have been pivotal in my last two days where the girls have begged me to penetrate them. I do this by escalating just a little bit slower than what she would like, teasing the most pleasurable areas, and using my verbals with a deep sexy voice to arouse her with whatever I say. But the key point to understand here is, the more turned on she is, the crazier things she is willing to do to fuck you(and will help you get there), such as taking you by a highway, or... in a park with lots of traffic. This relies on you having workable social frame, however, and she won't go into FSC on the slightest bit of arousal. Now, I've realized a lot of my game is on turning the girl on without giving her that release, but calibration is needed for what she can take at the moment. So in the opener, I'm not touching her as I would during escalation, but instead, slightly arousing her with my sexual vibe and building sexual tension. Now that I think of it, you might also want to give the concept of liminality a look(it's when there's this bubble between you and your girl and nothing else exists) as it really helps with avoiding FSC as long as you can maintain it, or be the one to break it first.

Also, it is worth considering who was in control of this interaction as it certainly was not you. If you want to up your odds and not have your lays based on luck and the whims of whatever the girl was feeling at that moment, you will need to learn to practice a dominant meta frame(This is probably the most important article for you) and lead your interactions in the way that the girl wants to be lead(not triggering her FSC/ASD).

Now that I think of this, the way you try to pull this girl triggers her ASD... this is not how she wants to be lead. "let's go back to my place for some wine" translates to "lets go back to my place so I can fuck you." You can either arouse her to the point where sex is desirable for her, or you can try to pull with better plausible deniability. Keep in mind though, girls are not dumb, and they know going back to your place means the possibility for sex. So sex with you has to at least be desirable for her which can be done by communicating that you are a sexual man who can give girls treasured experiences.

I hope you take the time to give most if not all of these links a look as I believe a fundamental understanding of these concepts will supercharge your game to the next level, and will lead to less frustration in field. (it also took me time to put this together haha)
Thanks @Lobo for the detailed answer, this is much appreciated. I have read almost all articles you linked.

This date was atypical and overall I don't think my bad ratio in dates usually come from triggering ASD or FSC, but rather from a lack of escalation (since recently I am trying to modify my behavior regarding that, but my standard way to escalate was only by going for a kiss).

So usually, because I don't escalate, I don't trigger ASD or FSC. But in this specific date, I definetely triggered ASD (I am not sure about FSC, it is a complex concept and I don't think I understand yet correctly the difference with ASD).

So in this date I overescalated, but this is not typical.

As of today, I have succeeded 3 times with my dates :
1- with my ex LTR (before cold approach, I knew her from social circle), I kissed here after 30 minutes on our first date (then we kiss another time before parting ways), then she came at my place for a second date and we slept together
2- with my 1st cold approach lay, I pull her in a cab after 50 minutes (after no escalation at all, I tried to reproduce this many times but it had always failed)
3- with my 2nd cold approach lay, I kiss her on our first date after 30 minutes, asked her if she want to come to my place and she refused (then we kiss another time before parting ways), then she came at my place for a second date and we slept together

So my only 1st date succesfull pull was with no kissing (I am currently writing a new FR with a 1st date pull, I didn't kiss the girl there either). And every time I try to pull after a kiss, it failed.

I think my main focus now should be to learn to escalate without kissing if I want to pull on the 1st date.
But if, for logistical reasons, doing 2 dates seems better than doing only 1, an approach where I kiss close on the first date and then do the 2nd date at my place seems OK (my last FR there was also a structure "kiss at the 1st date and 2nd date at my place", I should have fuck her if I had handled properly the 2nd date).
 
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Winston

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 4, 2021
Messages
145
my 2 cents as a fellow noob -

this was one of your best learning experiences, and you got quite far with her :) I had to get many gut punches before I realised on an emotional level that being needy doesn't work to get you laid at all. Next time you meet some girl and your emotional self urges you to be needy, take a step back and remember this experience. Works every time for me.

And if it won't, you'll get as many experiences like this one as you need to learn, lol. That's the beauty of women, they are our best teachers.


Heads up on this one, I would never keep talking with a girl I haven't bedded about her exes without contrasting myself to them, especially if they had high status / money / looks, etc.

The seduction is about you and her, reminding her about OTHER MEN that conquered her before you is shooting yourself in the foot cuz now she's going to compare you with them and be SUPER testy. If you're gonna do it make sure you have an edge on the guy, here you could have framed yourself as the sexier man given her ex had money and status. It's been my experience, every time I talked with a girl about exes and she didn't feel disgusted or disappointed by them she got VERY testy.

In fact I think that's one of the things that happened here, she thought she could get better lovers than you and therefore saw herself as higher status. Reason I'm saying that is that she was leading the frame all along after the second glass. She told you when it's ok or it's not ok to kiss. She grabbed your hand and lead you to places. Whereas when you met her you said she was nervous, which was actually a sign she saw you as higher status.

So next time a girl mentions her ex, either frame yourself as the better man, or better yet entertain her for a bit but quickly change subjects.
Indeed I think until the end of the second glass I was the one with the higher perceived status, and then when she talked about her ex, it shifted.

This was also her that offered to go to the museum. This seems like a good idea and I like museums, but this was her idea and it was no longer me who had the initiative of the unfolding of the date from this point (and it coincides with the moment where she talked about her ex, so this was the perfect storm).

What do you guys do when the girls propose to do something during the date? Do you always refuse to not lose the lead/the initiative?
 
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Darius

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
138
Indeed I think until the end of the second glass I was the one with the higher perceived status, and then when she talked about her ex, it shifted.

This was also her that offered to go to the museum. This seems like a good idea and I like museums, but this was her idea and it was no longer me who had the initiative of the unfolding of the date from this point (and it coincides with the moment where she talked about her ex, so this was the perfect storm).

What do you guys do when the girls propose to do something during the date? Do you always refuse to not lose the lead/the initiative?

I think it's important to be genuine in this kind of scenario. If she proposes something and you like her idea, it's totally fine to accept it. How you do it though makes all the difference. I recently read this article and it really made sense to me.

When she wants to lead, the roles are switched, now you get to decide whether to follow her lead or not. So if you like her idea, do what girls normally do as the followers - tease her, test her and frame yourself as the prize, while actively following her. That way you maintain frame control.

And of course, if you don't like her idea, suggest something else and do that instead.
 
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