As it core, what is the difference between a Pick up artist and a Natural?

[Eiswein]

Is the internalized steps to score fast? is his bullet proof frame that makes him inmune to shit test?
I have the theory that as it core, the pick up artist is simply a better conversationalist, sounds oversimplified but being a good conversionalist involves many things (frame control, objetives, plan, humor, confidence, social skills, non verbal lenguage, negotiations) what are your thoughs in it?

 

[ulrich]

I think you’re overthinking it.

A “natural” is someone who learned game by deduction and experimentation.
A pick up artist learned it from someone else’s system.

They are not necessarily exclusive to one another.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Is the internalized steps to score fast? is his bullet proof frame that makes him inmune to shit test?
I have the theory that as it core, the pick up artist is simply a better conversationalist, sounds oversimplified but being a good conversionalist involves many things (frame control, objetives, plan, humor, confidence, social skills, non verbal lenguage, negotiations) what are your thoughs in it?

You need to meet actual naturals.

Some naturals, say Evil Stifler (look him on Google) are like what you say.

But when you're out in the clubs and bars, you'll run into real naturals - and they break all sorts of "PUA Rules". They supplicate. They buy drinks. They insult rather than neg. They compliment earnestly. They are handsy. They are standoffish. They overreact to shit tests. They can be terse, they can be chatty.

In terms of the top level stuff - you're not going to hear any patterns or point to X and Y technique. You actually need to stand back and watch body language, facial expressions of him and her and the crowd, understand the social dynamics, etc. Most of what they are doing is unconscious and nonverbal.

Keep in mind, when pick up was in its infancy, there were multiple and contradictory methods to get chicks. FMAC, Grand Master Style, Gunwitch, Speed Seduction, Riker, ....And then some magician and a rock and roll reporter came on the scene and presented their model - and there are differences and contradictions even between them. And after one of their buddies got turned into a villain, he had a new style to teach, that took into account different aspects of human psychology.

We're all blind men touching one part of the elephant trying to describe how the rest of it looks.

As soon as you start hitting the bars and clubs and trying this stuff out, you'll get a real chance to see what works and what you can make work.

WIA

 

[trashKENNUT]

Pickup Artist is Kane.
Natural is THE UNDERTAKER!



Ok I'm messing around XD

 

[flatron]

Some say game is 'applied charisma'. Others will tell you game is a way to display confidence and that's the underlying principle of lots of the techniques. Todd talks about how game without intent isn't game.

Put all of that together and you can see how a natural will likely have certain fundamentals. He'll have the balls to escalate on girls who he senses like him. He has good body language and a clear confidence to him. Something about him will be charismatic (relaxed in his environment, making jokes etc etc). For the natural, it's all just part of his personality (shaped by his life experiences)

PUA's are basically breaking it all down and consciously applying techniques to do this

But when you're out in the clubs and bars, you'll run into real naturals - and they break all sorts of "PUA Rules". They supplicate. They buy drinks. They insult rather than neg. They compliment earnestly. They are handsy. They are standoffish. They overreact to shit tests. They can be terse, they can be chatty

True. A user here spoke about how his very successful wingman seems to break every rule, even with, as you say failing shit tests and running out of things to say etc etc.

Keep in mind, when pick up was in its infancy, there were multiple and contradictory methods to get chicks. FMAC, Grand Master Style, Gunwitch, Speed Seduction, Riker

Yep. I think the breaking of the 'rules' that naturals do and the fact that there are still multiple contradictory methods is what can also cause confusion. You ever been on seddit? When someone writes an FR and they get rejected going direct, all the 'pro indirect' guys jump in with links to mysterymethod or whoever. If someone opens indirect and runs mm and gets rejected, everyone jumps in saying ''girls like confident guys who are clear in their intent!! Don't mess around with this indirect bs. She knows what's up when you open her! That's why she rejected you. Go direct!!'' etc. I think this pattern is why nobody writes FR's there anymore lol

I think all the methods achieve the same end result and no one is really better or more 'advanced' than the other. It's simply about which one is most congruent with who you are

Either way, the difference in results is marginal imo.
Naturals and PUA's alike both gonna get rejected when they open girls who aren't into them, as we can see in infields and huge 'rejection compilations' in the products of the best of the best. And they'll both bang girls who think they're cute. Although i'd say the PUA will likely be able to do this more efficiently and faster (less likely to say something over-stupid to massively set of her slut defence for example. I remember when a natural friend of mine basically announced to all of the strangers in a pizza place that he was about to take home and bang the girl he had just met, kind of 'showing off' that he'd just pulled her, and she was like 'really!!!??' and walked away and got straight in a cab by herself leaving him there lol. I don't think the PUA would make that mistake)

 

[Carousel]

Keep in mind, when pick up was in its infancy, there were multiple and contradictory methods to get chicks. FMAC, Grand Master Style, Gunwitch, Speed Seduction, Riker, ....And then some magician and a rock and roll reporter came on the scene and presented their model - and there are differences and contradictions even between them. And after one of their buddies got turned into a villain, he had a new style to teach, that took into account different aspects of human psychology.

We're all blind men touching one part of the elephant trying to describe how the rest of it looks.

As soon as you start hitting the bars and clubs and trying this stuff out, you'll get a real chance to see what works and what you can make work.

I would say that at the advanced level, one starts to realize how the entire "elephant" looks like in the sense of understanding how the styles and techniques blend together or are variations of each other.

For example, I don't see any contradiction between Mystery Method and Gunwitch method. i use aspects of both. When one knows the context these two men have been operating in, it becomes obvious why they have emphasized different aspects and worded their methods differently.

Speed seduction from Ross and Riker also blends nicely into both methods. And I could go on.

The methods only LOOK contradictory to guys with little field experience or those who do not know in what contexts the authors operate.

A similar situation existed in martial arts - lots of seemingly "contradictory" styles have been successfully combined after MMA become a thing. A MMA student of today probably won't see any "contradiction" between the original styles.

Gun even named one of his later products "Seduction MMA".

Just as some of the martial arts are inferior for actual competition and won't show up in the tournaments (or get their ass kicked if they do), there are also pickup styles that are objectively inferior to others. There have been comprehensive articles at GC about this which I won't go into here to avoid a potential flame war.

At more advanced levels it also becomes obvious when "rules" can be broken - for example when buying a drink to a chic is not problematic. Many absolute rules are mainly heuristics for inexperienced guys, at higher levels of calibration they can or even should sometimes be broken.

PS: You write very interesting posts!

 

[Carousel]

Is the internalized steps to score fast? is his bullet proof frame that makes him inmune to shit test?

Most naturals are simply solid at fundamentals and know how to escalate, or hang around chics in social circles.

Also they tend to be less fucked up in terms of anxiety/trauma than the general male population, though there are exceptions.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

Is the internalized steps to score fast? is his bullet proof frame that makes him inmune to shit test?
I have the theory that as it core, the pick up artist is simply a better conversationalist, sounds oversimplified but being a good conversionalist involves many things (frame control, objetives, plan, humor, confidence, social skills, non verbal lenguage, negotiations) what are your thoughs in it?

@Eiswein dude! At its core a natural is someone that does it naturally, acts on impulse, doesn't think or really analyse what he's done after. He knows what he does works and will just get it. He couldn't tell you what he's done he usually doesn't know because it comes easy to him.

A PUA (can also be a natural) but is aware of tactics, techniques, what they're doing within reason. They have practiced/observed/analysed/learned and although will act in the moment in the field will have a repertoire built up and reference points to guide them.

I think awareness is the key difference.

There's a scope of naturals and a scope of PUAs some are better than others. A PUA might have to internalise something that a natural was already doing (naturally), but in understanding it can be more effective and break it down. A PUA that has internalised enough things with enough experience will seem like a natural but will usually be more consistent as they will understand what they're doing and less likely to make a fuck up to derail the seduction. (Though they are not immune, different levels/scope)

@ZacAdam dude! Natural is Dustin Rhodes, PUA is cody Rhodes :') (or possibly Daniel Bryan Haha)

 

[Skills]

i was a natural when i join the community with a high lay count these are the main differences:

- Naturals do not know the why(break downs of why some things work and some don't, in most cases)

- Naturals do not know how to break down as deep what they do and why it works in a way that is understandable like puas do.

- Most Naturals will down look studying pick up and think you are weird.

-Most naturals have madonna whore complex but then again most puas have it or some degree of it too...

- most naturals cheat.

Unlike all the things and rationalizations of puas saying we are better than naturals cause_________ it is not true and there is really no evidence of it...

as west indian archive says naturals do all types of things and break all types of rules and get away with it.... (my wing primo is a good example of it) he gets as much or more than pua consistently and with girls that are not into him (reds), one time i remember a girl telling me "i don't like him he is too short" next thing i know he and her are picking up women for 3 somes and going to swingclubs.,

 

[YS.]

I mean this is my completely narrow scoped opinion but from my experience every natural I've seen tend to be very limited in their ability to the point of not being able to move cities for incredible opportunities or move out of toxic relationships with their male friends to not get out of their groove. (A classic what got you here won't get you there case.)

A Natural: A guy who learned correct behaviors without consciously studying it. Or let's say analytically studying it. (He might have conciously modeled others.) But he was in the right environments, usually at an early age and had his referance experiences much earlier and internalized many beliefs without conscious effort. Or very limited / narrow scoped conscious effort. Influenced by a good amount of osmosis.

A PUA: A guy who usually studies social & sexual dynamics and learns them at a relatively much older age. Without proper learning pool and had to trial and error in the real world without osmosis to a large degree.

Usually PUA's have much higher ceilings and floors from my experience and much more flexible in their ability.

The problem often arises when people compare naturals and PUA's. Well... PUA's are mostly people who study and do PU, a very wide net. Not that special beyond the normal general population.

I think comparing PUAs and Naturals are a bad comparison because PUA's have no barrier of entry. I think it's best to compare a PUA to a general population of guys who are going for women (AFCs) and compare mPUAs with Naturals. I think that's a better comparison. A very select percentage of normal dudes who are into women turn out to be naturals and a very narrow percentage of people who do PU got good at it.

From my experience, naturals function much better in the society they got good at than mPUAs but the latter has a much more flexible skillset and could get much better and improve much more than a regular natural.

Exceptions not withstanding...

 

[greenleaf]

You need to meet actual naturals.

Some naturals, say Evil Stifler (look him on Google) are like what you say.

But when you're out in the clubs and bars, you'll run into real naturals - and they break all sorts of "PUA Rules". They supplicate. They buy drinks. They insult rather than neg. They compliment earnestly. They are handsy. They are standoffish. They overreact to shit tests. They can be terse, they can be chatty.

In terms of the top level stuff - you're not going to hear any patterns or point to X and Y technique. You actually need to stand back and watch body language, facial expressions of him and her and the crowd, understand the social dynamics, etc. Most of what they are doing is unconscious and nonverbal.

Keep in mind, when pick up was in its infancy, there were multiple and contradictory methods to get chicks. FMAC, Grand Master Style, Gunwitch, Speed Seduction, Riker, ....And then some magician and a rock and roll reporter came on the scene and presented their model - and there are differences and contradictions even between them. And after one of their buddies got turned into a villain, he had a new style to teach, that took into account different aspects of human psychology.

We're all blind men touching one part of the elephant trying to describe how the rest of it looks.

As soon as you start hitting the bars and clubs and trying this stuff out, you'll get a real chance to see what works and what you can make work.

WIA

Some say game is 'applied charisma'. Others will tell you game is a way to display confidence and that's the underlying principle of lots of the techniques. Todd talks about how game without intent isn't game.

Put all of that together and you can see how a natural will likely have certain fundamentals. He'll have the balls to escalate on girls who he senses like him. He has good body language and a clear confidence to him. Something about him will be charismatic (relaxed in his environment, making jokes etc etc). For the natural, it's all just part of his personality (shaped by his life experiences)

PUA's are basically breaking it all down and consciously applying techniques to do this


True. A user here spoke about how his very successful wingman seems to break every rule, even with, as you say failing shit tests and running out of things to say etc etc.




Yep. I think the breaking of the 'rules' that naturals do and the fact that there are still multiple contradictory methods is what can also cause confusion. You ever been on seddit? When someone writes an FR and they get rejected going direct, all the 'pro indirect' guys jump in with links to mysterymethod or whoever. If someone opens indirect and runs mm and gets rejected, everyone jumps in saying ''girls like confident guys who are clear in their intent!! Don't mess around with this indirect bs. She knows what's up when you open her! That's why she rejected you. Go direct!!'' etc. I think this pattern is why nobody writes FR's there anymore lol

I think all the methods achieve the same end result and no one is really better or more 'advanced' than the other. It's simply about which one is most congruent with who you are

Either way, the difference in results is marginal imo.
Naturals and PUA's alike both gonna get rejected when they open girls who aren't into them, as we can see in infields and huge 'rejection compilations' in the products of the best of the best. And they'll both bang girls who think they're cute. Although i'd say the PUA will likely be able to do this more efficiently and faster (less likely to say something over-stupid to massively set of her slut defence for example. I remember when a natural friend of mine basically announced to all of the strangers in a pizza place that he was about to take home and bang the girl he had just met, kind of 'showing off' that he'd just pulled her, and she was like 'really!!!??' and walked away and got straight in a cab by herself leaving him there lol. I don't think the PUA would make that mistake)

On the money.

 

[trashKENNUT]

will also play a role during these field tests. But unlike the average natural, who relies on situational confidence within specific niches, a skilled seducer continuously adjusts his process. . . based on these parameters.

His whole response of this post is BERY BERY good.

I'm not sure or quite surprised that no one sees this or maybe they do or maybe the less likes means that they don't or they do.

Anyway, it's a great response. I strongly recommend reading it again.

 

[ulrich]

Going out of topic a little, I think the PUA term is a little outdated.
Or at least it hasn’t aged well.

Does anyone really want to be a “pick up artist”?
Sounds like a marketing gimmick to me.

Seducer, lover of women... heck even manwhore sounds better in my opinion.

 

[Chase]

There's a really neat bit in @West_Indian_Archie's post I'd highlight:

But when you're out in the clubs and bars, you'll run into real naturals - and they break all sorts of "PUA Rules". They supplicate. They buy drinks. They insult rather than neg. They compliment earnestly. They are handsy. They are standoffish. They overreact to shit tests. They can be terse, they can be chatty.

What I have noticed with a lot of naturals is a an extreme kind of flexibility, where the guy might be, say, very standoffish at one point, then when the girl starts to back off, he will persist to the point of chasing and supplicating, get her back into him, then be standoffish again later, at which point she will be chasing. Or he will bounce back and forth in other ways.

Most (non-expert-level) PUAs will not do this. They have more inflexible methods they adhere to. They will start aloof, and stay aloof, regardless what the girl does. Or they will start as persistent chasers, and stay persistent chasers. PUAs often are following a method, while naturals tend to be following a vibe.

The natural is doing whatever he needs to to keep the vibe at a certain frequency. If the vibe starts dropping, the girl starts going away, he will ratchet the vibe up with his own energy or investment. If she starts getting really into him, he will ratchet the vibe down by pulling back a bit (see my article on emotional crests/troughs).

A few of my articles unpacking some differences with naturals vs. guys who learned this stuff later / more consciously or systematically:

The 5 Big Differences Between Naturals and “PUA”s

When I first discovered dating advice for men on the Internet in the mid-2000s, I was ecstatic; here were exactly the tools I was looking for to take what I was trying to do and put it on rocket fuel. With these tools, I knew, I could shave years off my learning curve and advance at a far faster...

www.girlschase.com

The Natural Mindset: Taking More Pleasure from Hook Ups

Note before we get started: this one’s more for intermediate and up guys who are running into this issue. For guys who are beginners, stick with treating your interactions with women more “mechanistically” and breaking them down into bite-sized pieces and goals you’re trying to accomplish and...

www.girlschase.com

How Naturals Meet Girls and Get Laid

One of the big mysteries for a lot of guys who are new to pickup is just how, exactly, men who are ‘naturals’ with women meet enough women to have the partner volume they do. If you’ve ever had a talented natural friend, you’ll notice it seems like he never does a cold approach, and spends most...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

 

[Tim Iron]

Using linguistics terms, a natural is a native of the language with zero formal training, while a PUA is a person who learned the language as an adult (in a school like setting).

 

[Chrance]

puas use concepts and theories based off other people’s experiences to maximize their results. Naturals don’t for whatever reason, maybe not necessary; they are almost completely intuitive

pua = intuition + abstractions (reason)

natural = intuition

this is at least how I understand the distinction