Book excerpt: storytelling – sounding too judgmental?

[lux7]

This is a story from Chase’s book (great book, and that’s maybe the main reason I have this urge of discussing one of the points I don’t agree with).

The aim of the story would be to convey high value through options and “pickiness”.

It can be a fine line between picky and judgmental, but to me it quite strongly came across more the latter.

Below the story is quoted, under the story my points/thoughts on it.

Craziest dating disaster I had? Probably tied between a couple of
girls I met online. That’s why I don’t really do online dating
anymore… chicks on the Internet are nuts.
At this point, I’ll pause to let her inquire further.
Okay, well, I’ll tell you one of them. This one chick I met off of
online… man, she was gorgeous. Tall, slender girl, long black
hair, 21 years old. Really beautiful girl; she’d turned down four
modeling contracts, And one to be a professional singer. But there
were red flags popping up all over the place: She didn’t own a
car. She didn’t own a cell phone, either – it was 2008… nobody
used landlines except this chick. She lived in a house with seven
people. That says shady all over it. Still, against my better
judgment, I said, “Fuck it,” and met her anyway.
The first thing she told me when I picked her up was that she was
celebrating the finalization of her divorce from her now ex
husband. “He cheated on me in Singapore and didn’t think I’d
find out,” she told me. “So do you know what I did?”
“No idea,” I told her.
Then she yelled, “I cheated on him back!”
I was like, “Wow, that’s great.” Didn’t really know what to say, to
be honest. What do you say to that?
HOW TO MAKE GIRLS CHASE CHASE AMANTE
127
At this point, the girl I’m telling the story to will probably be laughing
and relating to me by saying, “Wow, yeah, that’s a horrible first date.”
And I continue…
No, wait, it gets better. So we go to this pool hall and it turns out
she’s amazing at pool. Like, she broke and I never touched a cue.
She just cleaned up. Actually, taught me some really cool billiards
tips that I still use today. She apparently used to hustle guys at the
bar as a teenager, and once made $5,000 in one night to bail her
father out of some deep shit he was in with a loan shark who was
going to off him if he didn’t get him the money the next day.
After all that, I started thinking to myself, “Okay, this chick is
pretty cool after all, she’s got some good stuff going on.” So I invite
her back with me.
We head back to my place for some drinks, but on the way there,
in a moment of silence between conversations in my car, she just
randomly comes out with, “I was sexually abused from the age of
two to nineteen.” Literally out of nowhere.
I was like, “That’s horrible,” but I mean… it’s the first date. That’s
not really first date material, especially not something you blurt
out in the middle of nowhere in some guy’s car. It’s horrible it
happened to her, but… you tell me this on a first date?
So anyway, we get back to my place, and I’m now having some
serious reservations, but she’s really cute. Silly of me, but hey. So I
pour us some drinks, and we sit down on my couch. And
suddenly, she’s like, “Wanna see my tattoo?”
And I’m like, “Okay, sure,” and she lifts up her shirt, and there’s
this big tattoo of a skull on her back with the word ‘PAIN’ written
across its forehead. She then goes into some story about how it’s
represents the pain she’s endured because of whatever bad crap
she went through. At that point I wasn’t paying much attention, I
was just disturbed.
I always get the same question at this point when I’m telling this story
to girls: “Did you sleep with her?”
Actually, as soon as I saw the skull with the word ‘PAIN’ tattooed
on her back, I suddenly remembered she’d said she had to be
home about midnight. “Hey, didn’t you say you had to be out of
here at 12?” I asked her. “Because it’s about 11:45.” So, I drove her
home and never called her landline again.
Online dating, man. The Internet makes chicks crazy.

All girls dating online are crazy.
The introduction starts by saying that all girls doing online dating are crazy, which is a strong judgment passed on girls doing online dating and a bit of a sweeping generalization.
The girl you’re talking to might have been dabbing with online dating as well as far as you know.

The girl doesn’t own a car and a cellphone in 2008 and that’s “strange”.
OK, Europe is different on the car thing, but I would personally take the “no cellphone” part as intriguing and interesting actually.

He didn’t want to meet because she lives in a shared flat.
Gives a bit the impression of the right wing wealthy guy who always blames poverty on personal characteristics, very “American social climber” in a way and quite judgmental sounding.
She might have been unlucky, going through a rough phase, live harmoniously with the others like a big happy family etc. etc.
As far as you know the girl you’re talking to lives or recently lived in a shared flat and loved it…

The girl says she’s been abused out of nowhere and she’s labeled as “weird”.
That’s very harsh. Emphasis is put on the awkwardness rather than on empathy and that sounds very cold.
This person should have been understood rather than harshly judged.

She removes her shirt to show a tattoo.
Yes it’s a bit of a “non common” behavior and I think I wouldn’t want to have a serious long term thing with a person like this either, but on the other hand the girl was being completely natural and I would very much appreciate that.
The feeling for the listener, I feel, is less that the guys has options and is picky and more that she she can’t be natural around you him or else she can be quickly labeled as “weird” and discarded.

Recap: All girls dating online are crazy
A guys who's been around should know that some stereotypes tend to be true and that there are "major trends" , but also knows there are so many exceptions that generalization are a bit pointless and should possibly refrain from generalizing too much.

 

[PrettyDecent]

Lucifer7,

Be careful with this logic, my friend . You're venturing far and deep into the realm of "should" and "should not". And the line in-between the two is set at an arbitrary location - that's why there's no such thing as "objective/universal morals"; and why a ton of different religions/philosophies each with different rules exist.

Let's say a woman - 130 lb.'s overweight and has severe acne - walks up to you and says in the deepest John Wayne-like voice "I want to fuck you; let's go to my house". Well, the FAIR thing to do is say "absolutely!" - to agree even if you don't want to. It's only fair that all men and women get sex from attractive people equally! And you can't judge her for being unattractive - she has to work 60 hours a week to feed her family of 6 children; she has no time or money to spend making herself pretty!

And once you sufficiently improve your skill set with women, you won't just take any woman you can find to bed. Is she going to bring unnecessary drama into your life? Are you going to be dragged into her victim mentality mindset? Could you just as easily find a hotter, more stable woman to date altogether? Most of this becomes subconscious after a while - it's part of abundance mentality.

~Nick

 

[lux7]

Lucifer7,

Be careful with this logic, my friend . You're venturing far and deep into the realm of "should" and "should not". And the line in-between the two is set at an arbitrary location - that's why there's no such thing as "objective/universal morals"; and why a ton of different religions/philosophies each with different rules exist.

Let's say a woman - 130 lb.'s overweight and has severe acne - walks up to you and says in the deepest John Wayne-like voice "I want to fuck you; let's go to my house". Well, the FAIR thing to do is say "absolutely!" - to agree even if you don't want to. It's only fair that all men and women get sex from attractive people equally! And you can't judge her for being unattractive - she has to work 60 hours a week to feed her family of 6 children; she has no time or money to spend making herself pretty!

And once you sufficiently improve your skill set with women, you won't just take any woman you can find to bed. Is she going to bring unnecessary drama into your life? Are you going to be dragged into her victim mentality mindset? Could you just as easily find a hotter, more stable woman to date altogether? Most of this becomes subconscious after a while - it's part of abundance mentality.

~Nick

I think I get you what you wanna say Nick and I agree but this is a different case.

Without should and would, If I were at the receiving end of the that story, my feeling would be that the deliverer is a judgmental person with no compassion.. Who is a bit self absorbed too.

Don't sleeping with someone out of choice and not sleeping with someone out of choice and openly calling that person a "nutcase" is a very different thing.

In your example one thing is not sleeping with that woman: totally OK.
Another thing is not sleeping with that woman and going around telling people the story of that "silly bar you're not going to go to anymore following the experience of this super crazy fat ugly chick whom you (proudly) blew off".

 

[PrettyDecent]

Good points, Lucifer. And now that I look back on the original post, I see you communicate two statements 1.) she should have been judged differently (which is what I addressed), and 2.) the listener would interpret the speaker as judgmental and harsh.

And for that - yeah, true, but to a certain extent. She asked him to bring up a crazy dating story, so she's expecting this sort of story - he didn't bring it up out of the blue to 'make a point' - which is how we see it reading in an e-book; it's weaved in naturally. And for women, they have all sorts of socially inept men chasing them, so they can relate to the story; in context, she just got done telling him a similar story herself.

There's also some pacing statements:

I was like, “That’s horrible,” but I mean… it’s the first date. That’s
not really first date material, especially not something you blurt
out in the middle of nowhere in some guy’s car. It’s horrible it
happened to her, but… you tell me this on a first date?

This one chick I met off of
online… man, she was gorgeous. Tall, slender girl, long black
hair, 21 years old. Really beautiful girl; she’d turned down four
modeling contracts, And one to be a professional singer.

She apparently used to hustle guys at the
bar as a teenager, and once made $5,000 in one night to bail her
father out of some deep shit he was in with a loan shark who was
going to off him if he didn’t get him the money the next day.
After all that, I started thinking to myself, “Okay, this chick is
pretty cool after all, she’s got some good stuff going on.”

He gives her quite a few redeeming qualities - the girl in the story starts off in a level playing field. That's what makes it different than "telling people the story of that "silly bar you're not going to go to anymore following the experience of this super crazy fat ugly chick whom you (proudly) blew off"." And another small nuance: the story shows he was on her side to get together with him, but it was because of her repeated mistakes of social ineptitude that she lost her chance - whether the conversational partner will pick up on that nuance is up for debate.

I think its different when you're in person with the conversation, rather than looking at the conversation through the means of a book. Not to mention, non-verbals also take effect.

~Nick

 

[lux7]

Yeah, I agree with your points.

But I still think it's too much.
I personally think that very open minded people wouldn't like that kind of judgement calls even when they actually would agree not to have a relationship with that kind of girl (as I wouldn't either indeed).

Very open minded people like people who can relate to most people, and not just the ones with lifestyle.
I'm a bit like that. Not religious but in line with what someone said a couple of thousands years ago: "you'll be treated (judged) the way you treat (judge) the least among us".

I still remember my flatmate coldly saying how sickened she was about the "disgusting" homeless sleeping one night in the building entrance. Of course I didn't want a homeless stationing in our building entrance.
But I also couldn't help but thinking lowly of my flatmate.

 

[Whizzy]

The amount of red flags that she sent off in such a short period is kind of alarming, and while he may have been judgemental towards the situation he never made her feel so it sounds. He merely didn't want to get too involved after a while, because let's be honest....would you?

 

[lux7]

The amount of red flags that she sent off in such a short period is kind of alarming, and while he may have been judgemental towards the situation he never made her feel so it sounds. He merely didn't want to get too involved after a while, because let's be honest....would you?

No, not too involved, but it leaves a bad impression on the person who's listening the story.

Another part I would have definitely avoided is the sentence:

"OK but you tell me that.. On a first date?".

Now the listener feels like she has to analyze what she can share and what she can't share and that she can't open herself and share her main secrets and personal things (if she has, but most have).
And in the worst case scenario that she's a totally normal person with something bad happened to her in the past... You just pushed her far away with that comment.

 

[Whizzy]

While in some cases that may be true, in others blurting something of that sort out at people you barely know is a sign of current issues (ex: she isn't over it yet). In terms of white knighting it would make sense to be sympathetic and stick around...but that's not something that will generally help in the long run if you want higher and higher quality people in your life

 

[Chase]

Lucifer-

You're missing a few pieces of the nuance that go into this (maybe I didn't full explain all these in the book - that's a long story, and there's a lot that goes into it).

The overall feeling I'm instilling in the girl who's listening to this story is PRESSURE. I'm putting a LOT of pressure on her, and showing her I'm very picky.

Why? Isn't that bad? Doesn't that mean she's going to clam up around me?

Well, here's what it does. First, it makes her very uncomfortable - "Wow, I'd better not mess up around him."

But then, immediately after I finish this story, I'm going to start deep diving her again. And I'm going to go DEEP, and probably pull out something kinky about her.

She's going to be freaking out, and she's going to be very nervous telling me about it.

And then... do you know what happens next?

I TOTALLY reward her for telling me, and qualify her in a very sublime, natural, warm way.

The emotion this gives is the difference between a homeless guy telling you you're a gorgeous man, and a stunningly beautiful girl you've learned is super picky and cold to everyone telling you in her warmest tones that you're a gorgeous man. She feels unbelievably validated, and the validation is attached to you like a super magnet because only you - a guy she was feeling incredibly nervous around and afraid would poorly judge her - can validate her like that.

There are other aspects to the story as well - throughout the course of the telling, I also built the girl's value up quite high as well - she's young, beautiful, fiery, talented - all the things most guys go nuts for. But I rejected her. I don't care who the girl is I'm telling this story to, there's SOMETHING in that list she is not - if she isn't a pro at billiards, for instance, she's already feeling at least slightly inadequate to this girl, so when I validate the girl I'm talking to later, after telling her this story what this DOES is that it elevates her status ABOVE that of the girl in the story - but, again, her status is only elevated to that height around me. Leave my presence, and no other guy is going to elevate her above a gorgeous woman with talented vocal chords who can out-hustle the kings of all pool-hall hustlers. So, again, she's feeling incredibly validated just being around me, and because I validate her very genuinely, on her own deep characteristics that I've determined through deep diving, it's a very sincere validation, and it's something she's likely felt with no one else, aside from perhaps a few very strict but admired teachers or a parent. I'm immediately positioned as an extreme authority figure, and women are very, very attracted to authority figures.

On the downside, this puts you on something of a tightrope, because if you slip up and break your frame at any moment and lose a frame battle to her, you're done. So long as you maintain your frame, however, you're in an extremely good place.

Chase

 

[lux7]

Lucifer-

You're missing a few pieces of the nuance that go into this (maybe I didn't full explain all these in the book - that's a long story, and there's a lot that goes into it).

The overall feeling I'm instilling in the girl who's listening to this story is PRESSURE. I'm putting a LOT of pressure on her, and showing her I'm very picky.

Why? Isn't that bad? Doesn't that mean she's going to clam up around me?

Well, here's what it does. First, it makes her very uncomfortable - "Wow, I'd better not mess up around him."

But then, immediately after I finish this story, I'm going to start deep diving her again. And I'm going to go DEEP, and probably pull out something kinky about her.

She's going to be freaking out, and she's going to be very nervous telling me about it.

And then... do you know what happens next?

I TOTALLY reward her for telling me, and qualify her in a very sublime, natural, warm way.

The emotion this gives is the difference between a homeless guy telling you you're a gorgeous man, and a stunningly beautiful girl you've learned is super picky and cold to everyone telling you in her warmest tones that you're a gorgeous man. She feels unbelievably validated, and the validation is attached to you like a super magnet because only you - a guy she was feeling incredibly nervous around and afraid would poorly judge her - can validate her like that.

There are other aspects to the story as well - throughout the course of the telling, I also built the girl's value up quite high as well - she's young, beautiful, fiery, talented - all the things most guys go nuts for. But I rejected her. I don't care who the girl is I'm telling this story to, there's SOMETHING in that list she is not - if she isn't a pro at billiards, for instance, she's already feeling at least slightly inadequate to this girl, so when I validate the girl I'm talking to later, after telling her this story what this DOES is that it elevates her status ABOVE that of the girl in the story - but, again, her status is only elevated to that height around me. Leave my presence, and no other guy is going to elevate her above a gorgeous woman with talented vocal chords who can out-hustle the kings of all pool-hall hustlers. So, again, she's feeling incredibly validated just being around me, and because I validate her very genuinely, on her own deep characteristics that I've determined through deep diving, it's a very sincere validation, and it's something she's likely felt with no one else, aside from perhaps a few very strict but admired teachers or a parent. I'm immediately positioned as an extreme authority figure, and women are very, very attracted to authority figures.

On the downside, this puts you on something of a tightrope, because if you slip up and break your frame at any moment and lose a frame battle to her, you're done. So long as you maintain your frame, however, you're in an extremely good place.

Chase

Hey Chase, great explanation, now I understand, there's a follow up to that story, maybe I missed it in the book.

It makes a lot of sense now, "from rags to riches" .

Still a bit risky as you say, and still quite risky in my opinion the woman might take it the wrong way, but now I see how it can indeed pay off handsomely (and one can of course also use a modified version to blunt the risks).