Break Ups Broke up after 4 months - Did I make the right call?

[Beam]

Last night I had a messy breakup with the girl this post, HBTall. We met from DG, and were seeing each other twice a week, non exclusively. To summarize that post, three months in (end of December) she started expressing concerns about how I was seeing others. And I found out that she, in response, had started seeing others but not enthusiastically, as I later found out. Given the frequency of how often I was seeing her, the forum was in agreement that I was seeing her too much and that I would either have to upgrade her or break up for good. Immediately after that post, we couldn't see each other for two weeks due to both getting COVID. We then resumed seeing each other twice a week - I put off the conversation. However, last Saturday she brought it up that she couldn't do it anymore, that she didn't want a connection with anyone else, she wanted a connection with me, and that she couldn't open herself up unless it was exclusive. She told me shouldn't see me anymore if it wasn't, that she wasn't willing to have an open relationship. I told her that I would have to think about it and she left.

I didn't handle this well at all. Instead of writing and journaling everything in my mind about the pros and cons of going the exclusive route, I was just lying in bed stressing myself out about it and putting it off. Eventually, I settled on what I thought was my main concern - I wanted to meet other women to find out more about myself and that I could put it off for a time - a few months for a relationship. But I couldn't guarantee that my mind wouldn't start to stray, and that I was hesitant about a long term commitment as a result.

We met at a park on Tuesday night and I explained this to her. In response she told me she wasn't asking for a lifetime commitment, just to give it a chance. In the heat of the moment I agreed and we kissed. Then, my mind started to freak out. I had just slept with another cool girl the previous Friday night/Saturday morning. I was due to see her again. Agreeing to his meant cutting that experience for good. I explained how I wasn't sure, and told her if she was happy to accept that my mind would need time to adjust then I would be willing to give it a chance. She told me that that was me putting the decision onto her, that she wanted me to make a decision that I was sure of. She gave me more time, but foolishly I then agreed, saying I would cancel my plans with the other girl and wanted to make this work. I said it with such conviction. And we kissed. It seemed done.

We then went to get something to eat. HBTall was all smiles, telling me how relieved she was, how she was stressing so much and that how now she would be able to delete all her dating apps which she hated. She was so excited. We ate, we got drinks. But as she was gone getting the drinks, I started doubting myself again. She came back, we finished and left, I was distant, she asked me what was wrong, I wasn't honest with her and said I was tired. We went home, slept together. I wanted to see if sleeping with her would erase the doubts in my mind. It didn't. I couldn't stay hard. My mind was wandering. After the fact, I said she could stay but she sensed that I wanted space and said she would leave. When leaving, she said I looked sad. At this point, I told her it was still on my mind.

This is where things went even more south. I told her I couldn't do it. There were tears on both sides, frustration, she told me how unfair it was that I had seen her so much the last four months, that I had given her mixed signals. That it was shitty to sleep with her and lie about saying how I was tired when something else was on my mind. That she had come today prepared for me to end it, but I had then agreed and backpedalled on being exclusive multiple times which was a mindfuck. I couldn't blame her at all. I cried. She cried and walked out. I told her I was sorry. She simply said she was sorry too. And left,. My last memory was of her walking away slowly. I have never felt so devastated in my life.

The next day (today)

Today, I have been doing what I should have done after Saturday. Journalled my thoughts on why I felt this way. While wanting to experience more women was a part of it, I realized that that was only a small part. First, I'll focus on her positives. But then, I'll focus on the aspects of her that I realized made me hesitant to pursue a relationship with her (and please tell me if I'm being unreasonable, or close minded)


Positives:

• She is beautiful. Extremely so. Tall, brunette, amazing swimmers body, gorgeous face, great sense of fashion. She gets stares every time we are out in public, even had a guy randomly offer her a ride on his jetski the other day.
• She is extremely attracted to me. Wants to just build a connection with me.
• We are sexually compatible. We were having sex every time we met, every 3-4 days. We had the same interests sexually – more sensual. Lots of kissing.
• She is patient. Everytime I had problems in the bedroom, she was completely fine and understanding, and meant it.
• She is a clear communicator. She tells it how it is straight.
• When we are in a bubble, just the two of us, it’s fun enjoying lifes little funny moments.
• She has a low partner count - 1 previous partner who she was with for 11 years.
• She is loyal. I know she wouldn't stray.

But then, the negatives that sprung to mind that brought up my flight response.

Negatives:

• She is cynical. She admitted she felt her best days were behind her. Sometimes it is tiring being around her when she’s like this and I fear it rubbing off on me.
• She is 30. I am 29. I do have a desire to experience dating other women, especially younger ones...
• She got insecure about jewellery on my desk (even though I explained later it was actually mine)
• She told me she is open to kids but I’m not sure how enthusiastic she was really. I want kids.
• She is not adventurous. I went to a dance class once and wanted to practice with her after. She said she didn’t want to and just wanted to have sex. I wasn’t expecting her to jump for joy, but perhaps seeing how excited I was to try it and showing a little enthusiasm. This made me wonder what else she wouldn’t want to do.
• She takes a while to get comfortable with people. This was fine with us in our bubble, but I was thinking of what would happen if she met my friends and family. I felt she wouldn’t fit and that I would be constantly stressing about how she is feeling with others. I want someone who can hold their own socially.
• It didn’t feel she was supportive of my goals. Seeing my vision board, her first reaction was getting insecure because of the pictures of other women there and what that meant for her. She didn’t ask about any of the other pictures. When I explained that being with other women is something I had to do since I hadn’t experienced it when I was younger, she told me it felt like I was overcompensating. This made me concerned that she wouldn’t be supportive of my other goals, regarding fitness, music etc. But here I may be projecting – she told me that I would be able to grow still, that just because we were together wouldn’t mean I couldn’t grow. But I just didn’t feel the enthusiasm.
• It feels like my life has two parts – sharing the little things but also the grand goals. I need both in my life and so I want a partner who is similar – someone who I can enjoy lifes boring moments with (which I could with her) but who also wants more out of life and understands me when I want to achieve more, not telling me it’s perfectly fine not to achieve those things.

On these last three points, I realized that I want someone who isn’t just there to listen to me, I want someone who will be a fierce supporter of my goals and be there with me as I achieve them. I couldn’t see her in that position.

Then I ask myself, what do I know? I haven’t had a serious relationship before. Are my concerns even valid or am I being naïve? Should I have compromised, and gotten some relationship experience under my belt with this woman? Should I have given her a chance and worked with her though her issues with people and being jaded? Did her positives outweigh her negatives? I honestly can’t answer that because I don’t know. Part of me feels like I am being unreasonable, that I should have just tried. I feel like a jerk.

I don’t know if I made the right call. I’m curious to know what everyone here thinks, especially if you’ve been in a relationship with a woman like this. I’d be curious to hear how it played out…

 

[Chase]

@Beam,

This is a normal thing to go through when you're just starting to get really girlfriend-quality girls and they are pushing for / expecting monogamy but that isn't what you need yet.

You will have the fear of loss there ("She's so great... man, I don't want to lose her!") but you also have everything else you desire to do ("I'm really just getting rolling with girls... can I really abandon it now?").

There are basically three choices here... the first two, set by her: 1.) let her go and keep playing the field or 2.) go monogamous with her and keep the girl but give up the field... or the third, 3.) set your own frame (more on that below). You made choice #1, which is fine. You'll almost certainly not have gone wrong with it. You will get more girls like her sooner or later, doubtless some you even like more. But it is going to suck for a while, until you replace her, as you think back on her with a mixture of doubt and regret over losing her and the way things went.

That's emotions for you though. It'll be instructive for you in better handling future relationships like this.

One lesser point I'd make here is there are obvious holes in your frame in how you handle certain things:

• All the waffling on "yes exclusive" "no exclusive" -- too much indecision here, man. That said, it's natural for where you're at... this is new territory for you
  
  
• Letting her think she had you exclusive then taking her home under that assumption... not good. Again, though, understandable -- your first time here, emotions are going haywire, you're getting pulled in different directions. Need to try to avoid leading chicks on though, especially ones you care about
  
  
• The kids thing -- the way you handle this is "I'm having 10 kids" and when she says "Well I'm open to it but I don't know about 10, that's a little much, lol" you say "Cool. I'm having 10 kids though. Could be with you, could be with someone else. We can always get started though and see how far we get together." That's the basic framing of it -- you will have what you want, whether with her or someone else; she needs to decide if she can fit within your life. If she has a strong frame in opposition to yours it'll come out then ("I'm only having one kid because kids are polluters!") and you'll know it before it can become a big problem. If not, you'll find out how compliant or not she'll be based on how she reacts
  
  
• A woman seeing pictures of women on your vision board -- the only girl who's not going to care about that is one who's very sexually open-minded. It'd be like if you walked into her place and she had a vision board filled with hunky dudes (or maybe you wouldn't care? I dunno). Regardless, a girl who wants monogamy with you is going to care about that. Either learn not to care that girls care or don't go shoving tit-filled vision boards in the faces of women who want you all for themselves
  
  
• Fearing that she "won't be supportive" of your other goals when she's been blasted in the face with a bunch of tits and your goal of burying yourself in pussy is perhaps a might on the tone-deaf side. Try telling her about your non-playboy goals sometime when her head's not spinning from staring down a dozen bikini model cutouts and see how supportive or not she is then
  
  
• As for the cynicism thing, the best thing you can do there is simply tell her look, I like you, you're really amazing, but this cynicism, I can't have that around me. I like to keep stuff positive. That doesn't mean unrealistic, but there's both a hopeful and a cynical side to every picture, and I want to err on the hopeful side. Think you can do that? Then just reinforce it with her over time and see if she can change

One MAJOR note here, also on frame:


NEXT TIME, DON'T ACCEPT THE WOMAN'S FRAMES

She gave you a choice to make: keep me but become monogamous, or lose me and keep living your life.

The reason it SUCKED and sent your mind for such a tizzy is because you fell into her frame and could not decide between the two choices she gave you. You didn't want either of them. But rather than reject her ultimatum, you accepted the frame, waffling between the two choices she constructed for you.

In your next relationship, you should be the one defining the frame, not her.

I explained how I wasn't sure, and told her if she was happy to accept that my mind would need time to adjust then I would be willing to give it a chance. She told me that that was me putting the decision onto her, that she wanted me to make a decision that I was sure of. She gave me more time, but foolishly I then agreed, saying I would cancel my plans with the other girl and wanted to make this work. I said it with such conviction. And we kissed. It seemed done.

This was where you started to take control of the frame... only to yield it up again.

Her telling you you were "putting the decision onto her" was her telling you you were imposing your frame on her instead of accepting her frame (in her frame, there are only two choices, and it is your decision which of them to choose). However, she accepted your frame! And then somehow you immediately fell back into hers... I guess in gratitude for her accepting your frame?

Any time a woman wants you to make some decision where you don't agree with either/any of the choices, the way around that is to simply tell her what you're going to do with your life, independent of her artificially constructed choices, and let HER decide if she will continue to be a part of that / can handle continuing to be a part of that or not.

Tell her what you'll do with her ("I'll still be X" "I'll still continue to Y" "You'll always be my Z"), tell her what she can have with you, but also make clear what things you are doing / will continue to do that she does not want to do, then make her decide whether she can take the bad with the good or not.

Women do these ultimatum things because they're bad at making decisions, and because evolutionarily they aren't programmed to leave men unless/until those men show them they cannot be the men for them. You kept treating her like a girlfriend and doing a great enough job of it that she couldn't get herself out of it or get herself to want another man... so she had to create an ultimatum for you: to either give her what she wanted or showcase yourself as "not the right man."

Next time, don't play the ultimatum game.

Set your own frame and let her decide whether she can fit within it or not instead.

Chase

 

[William Wallace]

The kids thing -- the way you handle this is "I'm having 10 kids" and when she says "Well I'm open to it but I don't know about 10, that's a little much, lol" you say "Cool. I'm having 10 kids though. Chase you just did the perfect frame for me hahahahahahahaahaha i will remember lol

 

[Skills]

Last night I had a messy breakup with the girl this post, HBTall. We met from DG, and were seeing each other twice a week, non exclusively. To summarize that post, three months in (end of December) she started expressing concerns about how I was seeing others. And I found out that she, in response, had started seeing others but not enthusiastically, as I later found out. Given the frequency of how often I was seeing her, the forum was in agreement that I was seeing her too much and that I would either have to upgrade her or break up for good. Immediately after that post, we couldn't see each other for two weeks due to both getting COVID. We then resumed seeing each other twice a week - I put off the conversation. However, last Saturday she brought it up that she couldn't do it anymore, that she didn't want a connection with anyone else, she wanted a connection with me, and that she couldn't open herself up unless it was exclusive. She told me shouldn't see me anymore if it wasn't, that she wasn't willing to have an open relationship. I told her that I would have to think about it and she left.

I didn't handle this well at all. Instead of writing and journaling everything in my mind about the pros and cons of going the exclusive route, I was just lying in bed stressing myself out about it and putting it off. Eventually, I settled on what I thought was my main concern - I wanted to meet other women to find out more about myself and that I could put it off for a time - a few months for a relationship. But I couldn't guarantee that my mind wouldn't start to stray, and that I was hesitant about a long term commitment as a result.

We met at a park on Tuesday night and I explained this to her. In response she told me she wasn't asking for a lifetime commitment, just to give it a chance. In the heat of the moment I agreed and we kissed. Then, my mind started to freak out. I had just slept with another cool girl the previous Friday night/Saturday morning. I was due to see her again. Agreeing to his meant cutting that experience for good. I explained how I wasn't sure, and told her if she was happy to accept that my mind would need time to adjust then I would be willing to give it a chance. She told me that that was me putting the decision onto her, that she wanted me to make a decision that I was sure of. She gave me more time, but foolishly I then agreed, saying I would cancel my plans with the other girl and wanted to make this work. I said it with such conviction. And we kissed. It seemed done.

We then went to get something to eat. HBTall was all smiles, telling me how relieved she was, how she was stressing so much and that how now she would be able to delete all her dating apps which she hated. She was so excited. We ate, we got drinks. But as she was gone getting the drinks, I started doubting myself again. She came back, we finished and left, I was distant, she asked me what was wrong, I wasn't honest with her and said I was tired. We went home, slept together. I wanted to see if sleeping with her would erase the doubts in my mind. It didn't. I couldn't stay hard. My mind was wandering. After the fact, I said she could stay but she sensed that I wanted space and said she would leave. When leaving, she said I looked sad. At this point, I told her it was still on my mind.

This is where things went even more south. I told her I couldn't do it. There were tears on both sides, frustration, she told me how unfair it was that I had seen her so much the last four months, that I had given her mixed signals. That it was shitty to sleep with her and lie about saying how I was tired when something else was on my mind. That she had come today prepared for me to end it, but I had then agreed and backpedalled on being exclusive multiple times which was a mindfuck. I couldn't blame her at all. I cried. She cried and walked out. I told her I was sorry. She simply said she was sorry too. And left,. My last memory was of her walking away slowly. I have never felt so devastated in my life.

The next day (today)

Today, I have been doing what I should have done after Saturday. Journalled my thoughts on why I felt this way. While wanting to experience more women was a part of it, I realized that that was only a small part. First, I'll focus on her positives. But then, I'll focus on the aspects of her that I realized made me hesitant to pursue a relationship with her (and please tell me if I'm being unreasonable, or close minded)


Positives:

• She is beautiful. Extremely so. Tall, brunette, amazing swimmers body, gorgeous face, great sense of fashion. She gets stares every time we are out in public, even had a guy randomly offer her a ride on his jetski the other day.
• She is extremely attracted to me. Wants to just build a connection with me.
• We are sexually compatible. We were having sex every time we met, every 3-4 days. We had the same interests sexually – more sensual. Lots of kissing.
• She is patient. Everytime I had problems in the bedroom, she was completely fine and understanding, and meant it.
• She is a clear communicator. She tells it how it is straight.
• When we are in a bubble, just the two of us, it’s fun enjoying lifes little funny moments.
• She has a low partner count - 1 previous partner who she was with for 11 years.
• She is loyal. I know she wouldn't stray.

But then, the negatives that sprung to mind that brought up my flight response.

Negatives:

• She is cynical. She admitted she felt her best days were behind her. Sometimes it is tiring being around her when she’s like this and I fear it rubbing off on me.
• She is 30. I am 29. I do have a desire to experience dating other women, especially younger ones...
• She got insecure about jewellery on my desk (even though I explained later it was actually mine)
• She told me she is open to kids but I’m not sure how enthusiastic she was really. I want kids.
• She is not adventurous. I went to a dance class once and wanted to practice with her after. She said she didn’t want to and just wanted to have sex. I wasn’t expecting her to jump for joy, but perhaps seeing how excited I was to try it and showing a little enthusiasm. This made me wonder what else she wouldn’t want to do.
• She takes a while to get comfortable with people. This was fine with us in our bubble, but I was thinking of what would happen if she met my friends and family. I felt she wouldn’t fit and that I would be constantly stressing about how she is feeling with others. I want someone who can hold their own socially.
• It didn’t feel she was supportive of my goals. Seeing my vision board, her first reaction was getting insecure because of the pictures of other women there and what that meant for her. She didn’t ask about any of the other pictures. When I explained that being with other women is something I had to do since I hadn’t experienced it when I was younger, she told me it felt like I was overcompensating. This made me concerned that she wouldn’t be supportive of my other goals, regarding fitness, music etc. But here I may be projecting – she told me that I would be able to grow still, that just because we were together wouldn’t mean I couldn’t grow. But I just didn’t feel the enthusiasm.
• It feels like my life has two parts – sharing the little things but also the grand goals. I need both in my life and so I want a partner who is similar – someone who I can enjoy lifes boring moments with (which I could with her) but who also wants more out of life and understands me when I want to achieve more, not telling me it’s perfectly fine not to achieve those things.

On these last three points, I realized that I want someone who isn’t just there to listen to me, I want someone who will be a fierce supporter of my goals and be there with me as I achieve them. I couldn’t see her in that position.

Then I ask myself, what do I know? I haven’t had a serious relationship before. Are my concerns even valid or am I being naïve? Should I have compromised, and gotten some relationship experience under my belt with this woman? Should I have given her a chance and worked with her though her issues with people and being jaded? Did her positives outweigh her negatives? I honestly can’t answer that because I don’t know. Part of me feels like I am being unreasonable, that I should have just tried. I feel like a jerk.

I don’t know if I made the right call. I’m curious to know what everyone here thinks, especially if you’ve been in a relationship with a woman like this. I’d be curious to hear how it played out…

Your negatives are a bit too much and kind of reaching in my opinion this is a cool, girl do what you want... the test is this date her kind of exclusively for a bit,keep others as orbiters to test the waters if it feels like work, burden, obligation, you are missing out, that is your answer

 

[Fuck This]

So your frame should be:

Here is my path....Career, Family, fitness ....Whatever. You are welcome to join me on this but it is the direction I'm going. I would love for you to be a part of it. If you can't sign on for that , I'm still gonna do it. you can still do what you want as long as it doesn't interfere with my path and I want you to get what you want out of life and do what you need to do to achieve that.

 

[Beam]

Thanks for the in-depth response @Chase. It looks like I have another chance to do this properly. I sent her a text soon after this explaining how I should have journalled my thoughts beforehand, that in the moment due to the intense emotions I was feeling I wasn't able to fully verbalise my thoughts, with the end result being confusion. I told her that I didn't want my last memory of her to be her walking away like that, and that I wanted to meet up again to discuss everything that I was feeling that day.

She responded quickly, and wanted a call. She told me that she still wants me, but did not want to meet up again if it was going to be a repeat of the other night which was "devastating and confusing". I made it clear it wasn't going to be black and white. That I was not going to jump into agreeing to anything. That we were going to go through our concerns and work through them but that I could not make any guarantees. I am not giving in to her ultimatum this time around. She sounded hesitant - she doesn't want to get hurt again. I am seeing her tomorrow at her new place. Since then she has been sending me texts again about things going on in her day, which is her getting hopeful again...

@Beam,

This is a normal thing to go through when you're just starting to get really girlfriend-quality girls and they are pushing for / expecting monogamy but that isn't what you need yet.

You will have the fear of loss there ("She's so great... man, I don't want to lose her!") but you also have everything else you desire to do ("I'm really just getting rolling with girls... can I really abandon it now?").

There are basically three choices here... the first two, set by her: 1.) let her go and keep playing the field or 2.) go monogamous with her and keep the girl but give up the field... or the third, 3.) set your own frame (more on that below). You made choice #1, which is fine. You'll almost certainly not have gone wrong with it. You will get more girls like her sooner or later, doubtless some you even like more. But it is going to suck for a while, until you replace her, as you think back on her with a mixture of doubt and regret over losing her and the way things went.

That's emotions for you though. It'll be instructive for you in better handling future relationships like this.

Definitely has been a huge learning experience.

One lesser point I'd make here is there are obvious holes in your frame in how you handle certain things:

• All the waffling on "yes exclusive" "no exclusive" -- too much indecision here, man. That said, it's natural for where you're at... this is new territory for you
  
  
• Letting her think she had you exclusive then taking her home under that assumption... not good. Again, though, understandable -- your first time here, emotions are going haywire, you're getting pulled in different directions. Need to try to avoid leading chicks on though, especially ones you care about

Agreed, I handled it badly. And inviting her home and seeing her happy was cruel.. I hated hurting her so much.

The kids thing -- the way you handle this is "I'm having 10 kids" and when she says "Well I'm open to it but I don't know about 10, that's a little much, lol" you say "Cool. I'm having 10 kids though. Could be with you, could be with someone else. We can always get started though and see how far we get together." That's the basic framing of it -- you will have what you want, whether with her or someone else; she needs to decide if she can fit within your life. If she has a strong frame in opposition to yours it'll come out then ("I'm only having one kid because kids are polluters!") and you'll know it before it can become a big problem. If not, you'll find out how compliant or not she'll be based on how she reacts

I like it.

• A woman seeing pictures of women on your vision board -- the only girl who's not going to care about that is one who's very sexually open-minded. It'd be like if you walked into her place and she had a vision board filled with hunky dudes (or maybe you wouldn't care? I dunno). Regardless, a girl who wants monogamy with you is going to care about that. Either learn not to care that girls care or don't go shoving tit-filled vision boards in the faces of women who want you all for themselves
  
  
• Fearing that she "won't be supportive" of your other goals when she's been blasted in the face with a bunch of tits and your goal of burying yourself in pussy is perhaps a might on the tone-deaf side. Try telling her about your non-playboy goals sometime when her head's not spinning from staring down a dozen bikini model cutouts and see how supportive or not she is then

In my defense the board only has a couple of pictures of women (only one without clothes but you can't see anything). The others have clothes but are in quite provocative positions (with handcuffs, blindfolded etc). I purposely made them smaller compared to the other pics precisely for that reason but obviously it wasn't enough. This girl is very observant and reads into things. Given how polarizing it is I'm probably going to update it without those pics. If a girls already in my bedroom, I don't need another reason for her to get cold feet...

• As for the cynicism thing, the best thing you can do there is simply tell her look, I like you, you're really amazing, but this cynicism, I can't have that around me. I like to keep stuff positive. That doesn't mean unrealistic, but there's both a hopeful and a cynical side to every picture, and I want to err on the hopeful side. Think you can do that? Then just reinforce it with her over time and see if she can change

Noted.

One MAJOR note here, also on frame:


NEXT TIME, DON'T ACCEPT THE WOMAN'S FRAMES

She gave you a choice to make: keep me but become monogamous, or lose me and keep living your life.

The reason it SUCKED and sent your mind for such a tizzy is because you fell into her frame and could not decide between the two choices she gave you. You didn't want either of them. But rather than reject her ultimatum, you accepted the frame, waffling between the two choices she constructed for you.

In your next relationship, you should be the one defining the frame, not her.

This was where you started to take control of the frame... only to yield it up again.

Her telling you you were "putting the decision onto her" was her telling you you were imposing your frame on her instead of accepting her frame (in her frame, there are only two choices, and it is your decision which of them to choose). However, she accepted your frame! And then somehow you immediately fell back into hers... I guess in gratitude for her accepting your frame?

Any time a woman wants you to make some decision where you don't agree with either/any of the choices, the way around that is to simply tell her what you're going to do with your life, independent of her artificially constructed choices, and let HER decide if she will continue to be a part of that / can handle continuing to be a part of that or not.

Tell her what you'll do with her ("I'll still be X" "I'll still continue to Y" "You'll always be my Z"), tell her what she can have with you, but also make clear what things you are doing / will continue to do that she does not want to do, then make her decide whether she can take the bad with the good or not.

Women do these ultimatum things because they're bad at making decisions, and because evolutionarily they aren't programmed to leave men unless/until those men show them they cannot be the men for them. You kept treating her like a girlfriend and doing a great enough job of it that she couldn't get herself out of it or get herself to want another man... so she had to create an ultimatum for you: to either give her what she wanted or showcase yourself as "not the right man."

Next time, don't play the ultimatum game.

Set your own frame and let her decide whether she can fit within it or not instead.

Chase

Two of the major things on my mind right now are -

1. The other cool girl I am seeing, but which I don't see anything long term. She offers a totally different experience - is more sexually adventurous, gets along really well with my friends, but is less beautiful (I would say she's hot rather than beautiful)
2. A program I signed up for, which involves 5 weeks of daily accountability exercises to push through uncomfortable sticking points. This is centered around approaching and pushing boundaries with women. I paid a grand for this. Was supposed to do it last year but because of lockdowns and restrictions it kept being pushed back.

The two main things right now that are holding me back are that I would like to complete this program and also I would like to see this other girl. HBTall is concerned because she told me she couldn't keep building the connection if I was building the connection with others. To date I have been vague about "wanting to open myself up to different experiences with different people". I am sure she knows what that means, but I haven't given her details.

My current approach is - I am open to the possibility of a relationship with her (which I am) but it won't be a quick decision. That we need to try different things with each other to make sure that this is what we truly want. I want to tell her that to date, when we have hung out, we have talked, made cocktails, played games, and had sex. That has been the majority of our meetups. I would like to convey to her that there are other qualities I look for in a girlfriend, and that I can't realistically commit until I have a bit of an idea about these qualities too.

She will push back and say that we can try being exclusive for a time, so that I can get an idea about how she is in this capacity. Which is fair. But then I will explain to her how I have other investments that can't be so easily picked up again if dropped for this exclusivity trial...

Are there any holes with this approach...

 

[Beam]

Your negatives are a bit too much and kind of reaching in my opinion this is a cool, girl do what you want... the test is this date her kind of exclusively for a bit,keep others as orbiters to test the waters if it feels like work, burden, obligation, you are missing out, that is your answer

It would have been an easy decision to trial this for a bit if I hadn't just started sleeping with another hot, cool girl a week ago .. who offers a different experience sexually...

 

[topcat]

My current approach is - I am open to the possibility of a relationship with her (which I am) but it won't be a quick decision. That we need to try different things with each other to make sure that this is what we truly want. I want to tell her that to date, when we have hung out, we have talked, made cocktails, played games, and had sex. That has been the majority of our meetups. I would like to convey to her that there are other qualities I look for in a girlfriend, and that I can't realistically commit until I have a bit of an idea about these qualities too.

Hmmm… I’m tentative about this approach.

You’re still telling her “I want you to stick around for more of the same, while I figure out if you’re good enough. I may or may not select another chick over you, but if you’re good probably not, but wait around and see..”

If she has any sense she won’t go for that.

If you’re going to reel her back in she needs a decisive action. One that severely counters the clusterfuck you put her through earlier. One where she feels you’ve selected her and are willing to move things forward, despite keeping other options.

Look into Queen Theory.

My gut feel is if you’re going to turn this around, she needs to “feel” like she has your emotional exclusivity. You’d have to make her your main essentially, and act accordingly..

As it stands you’re decisively telling her you’ll be indecisive which won’t cut it, If you ask me..

If she goes for what you propose currently, don’t be surprised if she finds another man to fill the role she needs and drops out suddenly. She WILL be searching on the side.

 

[trashKENNUT]

If she goes for what you propose currently, don’t be surprised if she finds another man to fill the role she needs and drops out suddenly. She WILL be searching on the side

Right...

The next variable of causality, for a female is the Tribe.
I called this 'VALUE ASS-EESING'.

And to signal to her tribe
- Husband (Power source) (before causality)
- Tribe (causality after)
- Act (Virtue Signalling)

She will always be looking for something to reference. Men are puzzled by why females always try to see if her ex boyfriend girlfriends are better than her.

It's because females next variable of causality is the tribe.

It's not so much her. It's the public.
"The public sucks" - George Carlin

z@c+

 

[Chase]

@Beam,

My current approach is - I am open to the possibility of a relationship with her (which I am) but it won't be a quick decision. That we need to try different things with each other to make sure that this is what we truly want. I want to tell her that to date, when we have hung out, we have talked, made cocktails, played games, and had sex. That has been the majority of our meetups. I would like to convey to her that there are other qualities I look for in a girlfriend, and that I can't realistically commit until I have a bit of an idea about these qualities too.

She will push back and say that we can try being exclusive for a time, so that I can get an idea about how she is in this capacity. Which is fair. But then I will explain to her how I have other investments that can't be so easily picked up again if dropped for this exclusivity trial...

Are there any holes with this approach...

@topcat's on it.

I'm not terribly clear on how your current approach is much different from your previous approach. Wasn't "I need more time" the same answer you gave her before, which she rejected, which you surrendered on, had sex with her, then decided you made the wrong call and took it back?

Her frame: Two choices: "Time's up: give me up to play the field, or give the field up to have me. You must decide."

Your strategy: "I accept your choices, and will choose one of them, but I need more time before a decision is ready."

Who's still imposing the decision here? HER. Who's still following the other person's frame here and deciding amongst the choices presented to him? YOU.

No different; you are still in her frame.

You need to figure out what YOU want and what relationship terms YOU will set, then deliver those to her, and let HER decide if she can accept them or not. If she can, great, you can keep seeing her. If she can't, too bad, but you've got a life to lead.

That means you need to be telling her:

1. What she will get to have with you
   
   
2. What she can expect emotionally with you (i.e., how secure her position of prominence is with you)
   
   
3. An allusion to what YOUR MISSION or YOUR NATURE is (i.e., not a 'lifestyle' you are choosing but a sacred mission you are on to level your social and relationship skills up OR a nature you have that simply blocks you from exclusivity) that is neither overly evasive nor dangles it in her face so much it's insulting to her

And then you need to be prepared that if she cannot accept the frame you set for her, and she chooses to walk, so be it.

No matter what she says, so long as you are totally honest with her, you should still be slaying that poon post-discussion to communicate to her she is YOURS.

Right now you are too deep into her frame, trying to figure out whether to give up stuff to give her what she wants, or give her up to get what you want, trying to push off the decision into the future because you don't want to make the decision.

Until you figure out what you want and can set a clear frame for the relationship for HER to either accept or reject, you are going to keep falling back into her frame.

Chase

 

[Beam]

I'm still so confused about what I want. I have realised after a lot of thinking that I am open to a relationship with the right woman. I'm not explicitly looking for one, but I am open to one. To be honest if the right woman came along right now, I would go monogamous and stop playing the field. The desire to level up my social and romantic skills is strong, but only in the context of getting to the point where I can get a woman that I want. The thing is, this woman could be it but I haven't found out enough about her and I don't know if she is it.

So the frame of "These are the relationship terms. I want to still keep seeing you, but I also want to still sleep with other women because I committed myself to it." is not necessarily true for me, I don't think. But yet I can't have more time to determine if she is right because that's falling into her frame?

I know this is an oversimplication. I am in a bit of a rush at the moment. I am seeing her in an hour and can't put it off since I had to slightly delay a call we had yesterday and she freaked out.

This is such a clusterfuck.

 

[Skills]

I'm still so confused about what I want. I have realised after a lot of thinking that I am open to a relationship with the right woman. I'm not explicitly looking for one, but I am open to one. To be honest if the right woman came along right now, I would go monogamous and stop playing the field. The desire to level up my social and romantic skills is strong, but only in the context of getting to the point where I can get a woman that I want. The thing is, this woman could be it but I haven't found out enough about her and I don't know if she is it.

So the frame of "These are the relationship terms. I want to still keep seeing you, but I also want to still sleep with other women because I committed myself to it." is not necessarily true for me, I don't think. But yet I can't have more time to determine if she is right because that's falling into her frame?

I know this is an oversimplication. I am in a bit of a rush at the moment. I am seeing her in an hour and can't put it off since I had to slightly delay a call we had yesterday and she freaked out.

This is such a clusterfuck.

^ i kind of knew this was going to happen, beam read very slowly and carefully my post here in advance: https://www.skilledseducer.com/thre...uction-community-comparative-advantage.24604/

 

[Chase]

@Beam,

To be honest if the right woman came along right now, I would go monogamous and stop playing the field.

The problem you have is you lack the experience to recognize her.

It might be this girl. It might not be. If you had the experience, you could confidently say, "Yes, this girl. I commit to her. I've dated broadly enough and she is a superior option and one I'd be happy to wife up," or, "No, this girl is good, but I know I can do a lot better than her."

But yet I can't have more time to determine if she is right because that's falling into her frame?

More time to do what?

Was it anything you felt you had to do before she started telling you you had to do it?

I'm not trying to be a hard case about this. I just want you to be able to grasp the element of frame control running under the surface here, and how it determines which party is the one stuck in the discombobulated clusterfuck zone wracking his or her brain trying to figure out what the right thing to do is.

The frame accepter is the one forced to analyze the choices and choose from among them. The frame setter is the one who establishes the choices and parameters and allows the frame accepter to choose from among them.

Once you grasp this simple concept, it will help you think a lot more clearly about how you want to approach any kind of relationship decision point like this.

Anyway, it's all moot for now -- you've already met the girl, had the emotional encounter, and chosen one of the options she presented (or perhaps persuaded her to permit you a bit more time to evaluate other options).

Hope it went well. Regardless the outcome, I'm confident you'll be fine, Beam

Chase

 

[Alpha13SC]

@Beam would this be your first relationship?

 

[Beam]

@Beam,

The problem you have is you lack the experience to recognize her.

It might be this girl. It might not be. If you had the experience, you could confidently say, "Yes, this girl. I commit to her. I've dated broadly enough and she is a superior option and one I'd be happy to wife up," or, "No, this girl is good, but I know I can do a lot better than her."

More time to do what?

Was it anything you felt you had to do before she started telling you you had to do it?

It wasn't. She never explicitly told me I had to make a choice or she would walk. She essentially told me that she couldn't keep doing this anymore, that she wanted to give herself to me more but felt restricted. After talking to her yesterday and addressing all my concerns, it has started shifting in the direction of "a decision I have to make" to "this is something I see a lot of value in, something that would be worth pursuing, even though I may lose some experiences in the process". I have not rushed into any decision this time, however.

I'm not trying to be a hard case about this. I just want you to be able to grasp the element of frame control running under the surface here, and how it determines which party is the one stuck in the discombobulated clusterfuck zone wracking his or her brain trying to figure out what the right thing to do is.

The frame accepter is the one forced to analyze the choices and choose from among them. The frame setter is the one who establishes the choices and parameters and allows the frame accepter to choose from among them.

Once you grasp this simple concept, it will help you think a lot more clearly about how you want to approach any kind of relationship decision point like this.

I understand what you are saying. It is a lot harder to put it into action due to inexperience but I understand.

Anyway, it's all moot for now -- you've already met the girl, had the emotional encounter, and chosen one of the options she presented (or perhaps persuaded her to permit you a bit more time to evaluate other options).

Hope it went well. Regardless the outcome, I'm confident you'll be fine, Beam

Chase

We met again yesterday and it went well, however I still fell into her frame. This time, one of the decisions (to try exclusivity) has shifted from the camp of "an option I don't want" to "something that might be very valuable to me" . To summarize:

I told her in advance that I would not under any circumstances let a repeat of Tuesday happen. I told her that this would just be a discussion, that I would not agree to anything on the spot, that no matter what was discussed, we would both go away and think on it for short amount of time before agreeing to anything.

The discussion (main points)

I had written down everything that I felt on Tuesday and why I acted the way I did. I read from this to make sure every point was clear. I made it clear that the thoughts and concerns I had at the time were a result of my emotions at the time due to a lack of information, and not necessarily reflective of what I truly thought of her
.
These concerns included wanting someone who was positive about the future, someone who was growth oriented, someone who saw a better future. I told her that in that moment when I had my doubts I was unsure if she had shown those values. She understood completely and told me that while she did have a hard time being positive at times, she wanted the future to be better for herself. She also told me that she believed in personal growth, and admired the fact that I was committed to personal growth and that it was one of the reasons she was so drawn to me. Because it challenged her. She told me all the plans I had were so interesting.

I told her my concerns about if she would feel comfortable around my friends and family. She told me that that is who she is - someone who takes a long time to build up connections with others but once they are built, the connections are extremely strong. She told me that I would have to be patient with her, that that is who she was and she wasn't going to apologize for it. That she was who she was and she didn't want to feel like I had a list of requirements that she needed to be to be my girlfriend. That she accepted herself and she needed me to accept that. She teared up as she told me it had taken her a long time to reach this point of self acceptance and she finally had.

She admitted that many times she felt like she wanted to text me, and do things for me - such as driving something I had left in another city back to it since she was driving to that city to visit family, and giving me COVID tests which were hard to come by when I was sick. But that she held back because we weren't partners. She told me that's in her nature, to want to give more. But she felt held back.

This made me fall for her more I'll admit. It started shifting me from the "doubt" camp to "this is a woman who knows her worth, who knows what she wants. This is very attractive and this is something that could be worth pursuing"

On imposing my frame:

I attempted to convince her of an arrangement where she was my "Queen".

I told her that she was the number one woman in my life, and that if I was to sleep with others, my emotions would be with her first. She rejected this outright. Telling me that she would never be able to trust the connection if there were more. Telling me that if I met friends, family, it felt just wrong that I was sleeping with others, that she would never be able to reconcile that with herself.

I understand that I didn't fully impose a frame of "this is what I am doing, take it or leave it" because based on our discussion I was starting to see the value of trying for an exclusive arrangement with her and so I wasn't fully prepared to deliver that. Based on what she had said, her experience, values and everything else, being in a LTR with this woman would teach me a lot about healthy relationships. I have realized that having not been in a serious relationship before at 29, I cannot conceive of what a normal, healthy relationship looks like and that having that experience may be a nice thing, even if it is for a short time.

I walked away with my gut feeling like I wanted to try.

That night, Saturday, there was a festival which I had no idea about right near my house which a lot of hot 19 year olds running around. That was a huge contrast. That tested me again.

My fundamentals right now are not as good as they were last year - I felt like chasing hot 19 yo ass may be a time sink because of it. My current thinking is to try the exclusive route, level up myself in every other way (fitness, music, DJing, writing comedy etc) while still going out and talking to girls, guys to brush up on my social skills. Still be on my path. If we start feeling dissatisfied or the incompatibilities start rearing their ugly head, then we may have to rethink.

 

[Beam]

@Beam would this be your first relationship?

It would. I'm a late bloomer.

 

[Alpha13SC]

It would. I'm a late bloomer.

My mentor adviced me to try a relationship since it could made me better. 2 year ltr and after it I was on a streak. It improved my game and also learned about relationships game.
I member @Lofty said that @Bacchus also recommend it to him to try one and he s still running it as far as I know.

For sure it can be a tough decision to make since it can impact your life in more ways than you can imagine(good or bad), but sometimes why not just going with the gut feeling?

Important: if you're going exclusive with her, I strongly recommend the relationship posts and articles from GS. @Skills has on his site, @Chase and Ricardus have some good words written on GS, @Warped Mindless has also a posts somewhere here(+dread game), in no authors' particular order.

 

[topcat]

She admitted that many times she felt like she wanted to text me, and do things for me - such as driving something I had left in another city back to it since she was driving to that city to visit family, and giving me COVID tests which were hard to come by when I was sick. But that she held back because we weren't partners. She told me that's in her nature, to want to give more. But she felt held back.

This made me fall for her more I'll admit. It started shifting me from the "doubt" camp to "this is a woman who knows her worth, who knows what she wants. This is very attractive and this is something that could be worth pursuing"

Damn. She just gamed you.

I told her that she was the number one woman in my life, and that if I was to sleep with others, my emotions would be with her first. She rejected this outright. Telling me that she would never be able to trust the connection if there were more. Telling me that if I met friends, family, it felt just wrong that I was sleeping with others, that she would never be able to reconcile that with herself.

Listen, you made your decision, but you lack the experience to see your folly. It’s okay, that’s how you learn, but my prediction is that the confusion will only increase, in this relationship of yours. For your sake I hope that when it ends, you have greater insight into your true wants and needs and a clearer idea of your frame going into your next relationships.

 

[Alpha13SC]

We met again yesterday and it went well, however I still fell into her frame. This time, one of the decisions (to try exclusivity) has shifted from the camp of "an option I don't want" to "something that might be very valuable to me" . To summarize:

Falling into her frame, if it ever happens like now, it happens. Focus on doing better decisions.

I had written down everything that I felt on Tuesday and why I acted the way I did. I read from this to make sure every point was clear. I made it clear that the thoughts and concerns I had at the time were a result of my emotions at the time due to a lack of information, and not necessarily reflective of what I truly thought of her

You're being emotional here. It's not necessary a bad thing if it happens 1st time, and you can take it as a learning experience. But still, you want to be more decisive in the future, stronger.

I told her my concerns about if she would feel comfortable around my friends and family. She told me that that is who she is - someone who takes a long time to build up connections with others but once they are built, the connections are extremely strong. She told me that I would have to be patient with her, that that is who she was and she wasn't going to apologize for it. That she was who she was and she didn't want to feel like I had a list of requirements that she needed to be to be my girlfriend. That she accepted herself and she needed me to accept that. She teared up as she told me it had taken her a long time to reach this point of self acceptance and she finally had.

She admitted that many times she felt like she wanted to text me, and do things for me - such as driving something I had left in another city back to it since she was driving to that city to visit family, and giving me COVID tests which were hard to come by when I was sick. But that she held back because we weren't partners. She told me that's in her nature, to want to give more. But she felt held back.

This made me fall for her more I'll admit. It started shifting me from the "doubt" camp to "this is a woman who knows her worth, who knows what she wants. This is very attractive and this is something that could be worth pursuing"

Damn. She just gamed you.

@topcat is right. With all of this "love bombing", to name it like that it somehow wrapped your mind. Be aware of it. Girls did, are doing and will do all kind of things for their man, as long as he is still behaving like a man. Another thing is that women treats badboys better. Them chasing after commitment is making them doing a lot of stuff to prove themselves to you. That's just how it is. She's still the same girl as before. This should not actually alter your view of her because it can lead to a place where you're doing things because of what she did, or as something in return. You want to do things because you want, not as a reaction to her. I did this mistake in the past and somehow lead to doing some things from my part which weren't fully congruent with my persona just because "well, she did this thing for me".

 

[Skills]

Jesus Christ not everything is a constant frame battle most women want to be exclusive, most of us delay and get other women during the delay 6 months to a year they start falling and falling harder at that point, you can continue the delay sometimes work, a few time doesn't and they want to walk and .over on regardless of so call frame at that point you either let them go or they stay.... I don't care how good your frame or game is not all women will do open, hate to break it to you guys.. beam do what you want brother...