Can being playful be unattractive - especially in relationships?

[orkie123]

One of the main takeaways from my previous relationship was that I need to improve my masculine energy. I thought that my leadership and ambition was good, but while I set up boundaries, I couldn't enforce them well and also at times felt weak in the relationship - sending long texts complaining about bad behaviour, getting insecure, not sounding confident in my conviction at life. Maybe it can be summarised as knowing what I want, making it clear what I want, trying to lead the way to it in a healthy manner, but having a weak frame to enforce it.

While the above is probably the bigger point I need to improve, I started wondering whether occasionally my playful or "silly" personality is also not ideal. I don't even know if the examples I'll share can be considered being playful etc but I've had a few times people tell me that they thought I was gay, and while that doesn't bother me, what would bother me is if it is negatively impacting my game or ability to maintain relationships.

I think a lot of these need context as to why I'm doing them. And the simple answer is I do enjoy being silly, social freedom, not caring what others think, and while I don't want to be seen as a clown, I love boosting the energy of the people I'm with as normal interactions tend to bore me quickly. Some people can do this naturally without being too silly, I can't. The only way is to make the mood ligher/more playful but I wonder if I'm not overdoing it so that even if people are enjoying it, they are losing respect for me etc. I guess I need reassurance whether these are normal things or I need to tone it down a little.


Some examples:
- Doing a wolf howl in the middle of busy city centre
- Challenged my gf to beat the overly exaggerated death we saw in a play, she did a terrible job so I completely exaggerated it, falling on the ground and pretend choking etc
- Singing cheesy songs in crowded public places (with others but I can initiate sometimes)
- I can't dance that well, but I don't care - I will shake hips and make up moves in clubs/parties
- Playing stupid "kid" games - e.g. can't step on black tiles in patterned pavements. "first person to touch X" "dare you to do something stupid/ I do stupid dares"
- Getting out of the shower and teasing her while she is on a video call (behind the laptop so only she can see me)
- Making stupid noises/ no filter jokes
- Creating silly scenarios questions
etc

To me, these are all positive things, but after hearing quite a few girls tell me they thought I was gay, and I dress and groom in a normal/masculine way (I've asked and also follow the style of manly influencers whose style matches my own), I do start to wonder.

With my ex, I also believe I balanced this out by doing more masculine stuff like leading, randomly "pushing" her to a wall and passionately making out. Being seductive in restaurants or in public where only us 2 can feel it, deciding what we are doing, and providing structure to our lives.

Do you think I need to cut some of this stuff out or am I'm good and I need to focus on other things like holding frames?

 

[metalbird]

My take on this is that all of these are all displays of comfort and self-expression which, if you ask a dozen women, probably 11 of them will say, "OMG, yes, why can't I find a guy who acts like that? That is the epitome of male attractiveness".

HOWEVER, in the same way, if you ask a dozen women, "Do you like men who buy you flowers, treat you with respect, and consistently act loyally and monogamously towards you?" Eleven out of twelve women will say, "OMG, yes, why can't I find a guy who acts like that? That is the epitome of male attractiveness". But we know that displaying those behaviors, outside of very measured contexts with women with whom you have a very strong frame and rapport, are absolute attraction-killers.

The reason is because, like the typical "nice guy" behaviors, all of the behaviors you describe are embodied, for most straight women, by the "end game male partner". (There's probably a better word for this, but I don't know it.)

I generally don't like to take a red-pill style "battle of the sexes" male-versus-female competitive view of dating, because behaviorally, I think the dating dance should be cooperative, not competitive. But the one place that the competitive model does seem to hold the most weight is when we boil down the the deep, archetypal models men and women have at the core of our mating drives.

For women, their biosocial drive is to take a powerful, aloof male, mate with him, and transform him into a loyal, playful puppy. Whether or not this idea is achievable, practical, realistic, etc., is irrelevant. It serves as a biological driver, not a true roadmap for behavior.

But ultimately, the behaviors you're describing are all those of the end-stage, loyal, playful puppy. Which is why women will say they're attracted to them -- they are! They love the idea of a man who acts like that. But they also love the idea of a man who gets what he wants in life; wants them; and takes what he wants from them by force, without asking for consent... My point is, ideas can be dangerous when they're unmoderated by reality...

 

[orkie123]

My take on this is that all of these are all displays of comfort and self-expression which, if you ask a dozen women, probably 11 of them will say, "OMG, yes, why can't I find a guy who acts like that? That is the epitome of male attractiveness".

HOWEVER, in the same way, if you ask a dozen women, "Do you like men who buy you flowers, treat you with respect, and consistently act loyally and monogamously towards you?" Eleven out of twelve women will say, "OMG, yes, why can't I find a guy who acts like that? That is the epitome of male attractiveness". But we know that displaying those behaviors, outside of very measured contexts with women with whom you have a very strong frame and rapport, are absolute attraction-killers.

The reason is because, like the typical "nice guy" behaviors, all of the behaviors you describe are embodied, for most straight women, by the "end game male partner". (There's probably a better word for this, but I don't know it.)

I generally don't like to take a red-pill style "battle of the sexes" male-versus-female competitive view of dating, because behaviorally, I think the dating dance should be cooperative, not competitive. But the one place that the competitive model does seem to hold the most weight is when we boil down the the deep, archetypal models men and women have at the core of our mating drives.

For women, their biosocial drive is to take a powerful, aloof male, mate with him, and transform him into a loyal, playful puppy. Whether or not this idea is achievable, practical, realistic, etc., is irrelevant. It serves as a biological driver, not a true roadmap for behavior.

But ultimately, the behaviors you're describing are all those of the end-stage, loyal, playful puppy. Which is why women will say they're attracted to them -- they are! They love the idea of a man who acts like that. But they also love the idea of a man who gets what he wants in life; wants them; and takes what he wants from them by force, without asking for consent... My point is, ideas can be dangerous when they're unmoderated by reality...

You put words to my feelings on this extremely well. Girls like it but they are not attracted, so even if initially they show interest, the deep attraction can't take over. My problem is that when I'm in that mood, I really enjoy life - so much that I don't even care about results etc. Quite often, when I'm in this mood, I will approach a lot of girls but then more likely that my friends pull by not doing much themselves.

I think it is too engraved in my personality to completely remove this, but I need to be able to switch it off at times. I.e. use this energy to build up a positive vibe and then become a little cold and focus on slower but more seductive actions, like building tension, eye contact etc. I find it very hard to transition though. If I start of low energy, a little more mysterious then it's all good, but if I start off high energy, much harder for me to slow down.

 

[metalbird]

Yep I have similar issues: https://www.skilledseducer.com/thre...otions-hurt-you-with-women.27341/#post-159853

 

[ulrich]

All those things are not bad per se… but they do need to be restricted to the right places and times.

I think the main thing is how your girl feels with you and what she is looking in a relationship.

Too much play makes you look juvenile… but I think “too much” is largely a personal measure.

How much does she needs you to be a rock and the mature commanding non-emotional side of the relationship?
How much does she need you to be emotionally available for her?
How much does she need you to be silly and just be swept away by your funny irreverence?


Most girls certainly welcome some playfulness although not too much… I know some women that can’t take a joke even to save their lives… and I can imagine some of them love the funny dumb clown that does things because they amuse him.

I feel this is more of a calibration question.

How much silliness can the girl in front of you take?
And, are you willing to tone it down if needed?

 

[orkie123]

Yep I have similar issues: https://www.skilledseducer.com/thre...otions-hurt-you-with-women.27341/#post-159853

It's weird because I was thinking about asking about this for few days, finally did it today, then read the rest of the forum and saw your post and thought I was duplicating haha. I relate to quite a few of your points. Especially the "This feels good so I'm going to hold on to it rather than move ahead". I've gotten better at it, but quite a few times, girls have had to give me a overly obvious "kiss me" or "move things along you idiot" hints and then I usually get it, but if it had to get to that obvious, I laugh internally at how many hints I must have missed already.

All those things are not bad per se… but they do need to be restricted to the right places and times.

I think the main thing is how your girl feels with you and what she is looking in a relationship.

Too much play makes you look juvenile… but I think “too much” is largely a personal measure.

How much does she needs you to be a rock and the mature commanding non-emotional side of the relationship?
How much does she need you to be emotionally available for her?
How much does she need you to be silly and just be swept away by your funny irreverence?


Most girls certainly welcome some playfulness although not too much… I know some women that can’t take a joke even to save their lives… and I can imagine some of them love the funny dumb clown that does things because they amuse him.

I feel this is more of a calibration question.

How much silliness can the girl in front of you take?
And, are you willing to tone it down if needed?

That's the thing, I find it difficult to control when I'm in the zone. Say I'm in the club and Im having a good time and there was a girl who seems interested. I can get lost in having a good time/dancing rather than isolating her and building up some connection/rapport with the girl. It's not fear that it won't work or anything, just enjoying the moment.

Recently, I met some Ukrainian girls via mutual friend. Knowing the stereotype, I forced myself to be more masculine than usual and resist the silliness. Nothing happened first time we went out as a group but I bumped into one of them at a bar once. She was with a guy but I'm 99% sure they were just friends. Anyway, while saying hi etc, she told me they are going to another bar and literally grabbed his arm and said "We are going". I looked her into the eyes and just said "You are so rude wow". The few seconds of her processing what I said were hilarious. I don't think she expected it from me. Since then, I've bumped into her a few more times and she's always excited to see me but I've kind of chickened out of making a move.

While I think the above is proof I'm correct in needing to express my masculine side more, I don't feel like it's me. I don't think I could be long-term with a girl like that where I have to be tough most of the time. While I get attracted by how feminine she is, it also kind of tires me out. This is where I don't know if I'm just being weak/lazy or if I should accept I'm never going to be on the extreme end of masculinity which may mean certain girls are not going to be attracted to me.

 

[ulrich]

That's the thing, I find it difficult to control when I'm in the zone.

This is where I don't know if I'm just being weak/lazy or if I should accept I'm never going to be on the extreme end of masculinity which may mean certain girls are not going to be attracted to me.

That’s the thing that you need to work on and the part that is not masculine… letting yourself off control.

Being happy and playful is OK.

Letting your emotions take a hold of you and call the shots is not. That’s the “non-masculine” thing.

I am all for choosing the best girl that matches the best with your personality.

But girls will need you to be confident, controlled and commanding at times.
And you need to have the ability to switch on/off your inertial tendencies in order to lead.

Think of it not as “I need to change who I am 90% of the time” instead think of “If I need to switch to leadership, I will do it at moment’s notice”.

 

[Skills]

One of the main takeaways from my previous relationship was that I need to improve my masculine energy. I thought that my leadership and ambition was good, but while I set up boundaries, I couldn't enforce them well and also at times felt weak in the relationship - sending long texts complaining about bad behaviour, getting insecure, not sounding confident in my conviction at life. Maybe it can be summarised as knowing what I want, making it clear what I want, trying to lead the way to it in a healthy manner, but having a weak frame to enforce it.

While the above is probably the bigger point I need to improve, I started wondering whether occasionally my playful or "silly" personality is also not ideal. I don't even know if the examples I'll share can be considered being playful etc but I've had a few times people tell me that they thought I was gay, and while that doesn't bother me, what would bother me is if it is negatively impacting my game or ability to maintain relationships.

I think a lot of these need context as to why I'm doing them. And the simple answer is I do enjoy being silly, social freedom, not caring what others think, and while I don't want to be seen as a clown, I love boosting the energy of the people I'm with as normal interactions tend to bore me quickly. Some people can do this naturally without being too silly, I can't. The only way is to make the mood ligher/more playful but I wonder if I'm not overdoing it so that even if people are enjoying it, they are losing respect for me etc. I guess I need reassurance whether these are normal things or I need to tone it down a little.


Some examples:
- Doing a wolf howl in the middle of busy city centre
- Challenged my gf to beat the overly exaggerated death we saw in a play, she did a terrible job so I completely exaggerated it, falling on the ground and pretend choking etc
- Singing cheesy songs in crowded public places (with others but I can initiate sometimes)
- I can't dance that well, but I don't care - I will shake hips and make up moves in clubs/parties
- Playing stupid "kid" games - e.g. can't step on black tiles in patterned pavements. "first person to touch X" "dare you to do something stupid/ I do stupid dares"
- Getting out of the shower and teasing her while she is on a video call (behind the laptop so only she can see me)
- Making stupid noises/ no filter jokes
- Creating silly scenarios questions
etc

To me, these are all positive things, but after hearing quite a few girls tell me they thought I was gay, and I dress and groom in a normal/masculine way (I've asked and also follow the style of manly influencers whose style matches my own), I do start to wonder.

With my ex, I also believe I balanced this out by doing more masculine stuff like leading, randomly "pushing" her to a wall and passionately making out. Being seductive in restaurants or in public where only us 2 can feel it, deciding what we are doing, and providing structure to our lives.

Do you think I need to cut some of this stuff out or am I'm good and I need to focus on other things like holding frames?

this is what we call in the community self amusement, it is attractive, but as all things need calibration and fine tuning, to see when the timing is right, when to do it, based on experience how people react etc..... It seems your stuff is not coming across right and is turning off women..... let me give you an analogy stand up comedians practice what acts they prepare land and which ones to discard, it seems a lot of your act is not coming across as cool, funny or amusing... Take a look at this video for some pointers...

 

[orkie123]

That’s the thing that you need to work on and the part that is not masculine… letting yourself off control.

Being happy and playful is OK.

Letting your emotions take a hold of you and call the shots is not. That’s the “non-masculine” thing.

I am all for choosing the best girl that matches the best with your personality.

But girls will need you to be confident, controlled and commanding at times.
And you need to have the ability to switch on/off your inertial tendencies in order to lead.

Think of it not as “I need to change who I am 90% of the time” instead think of “If I need to switch to leadership, I will do it at moment’s notice”.

this is what we call in the community self amusement, it is attractive, but as all things need calibration and fine tuning, to see when the timing is right, when to do it, based on experience how people react etc..... It seems your stuff is not coming across right and is turning off women..... let me give you an analogy stand up comedians practice what acts they prepare land and which ones to discard, it seems a lot of your act is not coming across as cool, funny or amusing... Take a look at this video for some pointers...

I think combined and with metalbird's responses you guys have hit the nail on the coffin.

My main problem is controlling and knowing when to use self-amusement humour and not overdoing it. I think when I use it in little bits, I don't do it too bad as I do see positive responses. Quite a few times I think I do what you mentioned in that YT video: I plow the humour so it goes like this:

- Good use of humour = she's interested. Plow plow plow - she gets bored or thinks I'm a one trick pony that doesn't know how to seduce/lead a girl.

 

[ulrich]

Good @orkie123, I’m glad to see you’re getting the point.

Another way to see it is from the girl perspective:

- You do random shit #1: “Oh, this guys is interesting. How confident!! What is his deal”

- You do random shit #2: “Yeah, I’m liking him… let me throw some signals and see what he does”

- You do random shit #5: “Does this guy even notices me?! Nevermind, I’m done trying”


At some point you need to be “affected” by the girl’s signals and show more interest/get compliance… otherwise she thinks you don’t care for her and she moves to auto-rejection.

 

[orkie123]

Good @orkie123, I’m glad to see you’re getting the point.

Another way to see it is from the girl perspective:

- You do random shit #1: “Oh, this guys is interesting. How confident!! What is his deal”

- You do random shit #2: “Yeah, I’m liking him… let me throw some signals and see what he does”

- You do random shit #5: “Does this guy even notices me?! Nevermind, I’m done trying”


At some point you need to be “affected” by the girl’s signals and show more interest/get compliance… otherwise she thinks you don’t care for her and she moves to auto-rejection.

Makes sense, thanks for the help.

I don't know why I find it so hard to do this. Just today I had another interaction where I overdid it a little in a social group setting. I approached a group of 4 (3 girls and 1 guy) that I didn't know and was leading the convo well. The hottest girl was really intrigued by me - (she was asking me personal questions and I we really deep dived to the point where we both disagreed with the other 2 in the grp while "seeing exactly what we mean" kind of us against the world vibe. Also when her friend tried to drag her to get a drink, she resisted a lot as I was sharing a story etc). But then a guy I know joined the convo and he brings out this "clown mode" in me because he just always says the same inside jokes that should have died after the first time we said them. It's almost scary how quickly the hot girl started losing interest. Combine that with a few other things that went wrong, and a really great interaction went to shit.

I think my short term fix, at least for social settings rather than 1-1s where I have a little better control, is to just get out or change topic when it comes up. If I had kept quite, this guy's "joke" would have dried up and made him look a bit silly. I don't have anything against him, but he's cockblocked me in this way a few times. Not sure if he is doing it on purpose, but either way, it's not so much that I feel compelled to play along, it's that I kind of enjoy these silly convos that ruin it. If I had kept my mouth shut when he came until that "banter" died or went to get a drink and then spoke directly with the hot girl, it would have made all the difference.

 

[ulrich]

Sounds like a very ingrained habit.
As long as you are aware of it and strive to break it, over time you will be able to control it.