Compliments

[Higher]

Small breakthrough in female psychology for me. Maybe "water is wet" for some, maybe helpful for some others. Could also be that I read this stuff here already before but it just resurfaced in my consciousness now.

I fucked up with a girl a couple days ago. I think I have other chances with her because she really likes me, but this could have been avoided.

This girl's got a long-distance bf and she's not happy, and she'd love a roll in the hay with yours truly -- maybe even a relationship. Problem is, she's very conservative in terms of relationships and consequently she's got strong ASD.

So we were out camping. We had just pitched our tent and were drinking wine. I was flirting a bit and made her a few compliments, something really low-key and playful as my usual. She thanked me, smiled and shyly asked me to stop. She didn't seem super comfortable, but I attributed it to her shyness.

After a few minutes I got her close to me, we took a few selfies and I made her another compliment. However her reaction this time surprised me a fair bit: she angrily said "stop it! you make me feel uncomfortable!".

This didn't compile at all in my brain, but I recovered immediately by diffusing the situation and getting her to agree with me that it was cool how we met each other (courtesy daygame). After that we were good again, but I stopped trying to move things forward. In my dumb mind it was a rejection. This led to a disappointing night for both of us.

Now, the post-mortem took me some time. I spent that night + following morning thinking about it. Maybe she had changed her mind about me. Or maybe I had too strong of a boyfriend vibe. Or maybe she just wanted to keep me on the back-burner, ready to give me a chance had her situation with the bf gotten irreparable.

However when I got home I finally got it: my compliments triggered her ASD.

Compliments can be part of the escalation process. Complimenting her put pressure on her to accept the escalation, thus triggering her defenses. This only happened because:

- she's got strong ASD given her conservative background;
- she is taken, and
- she likes me and therefore was in rapport-building mode.

Had she not been sexually/romantically interested, she would have thanked me in a very friendly or dismissive way.

Now, what this girl really needed was me forcing her hand. She didn't wanna take responsibility for the seduction by validating the escalation. She wanted me to take charge.

The best first step would have been to steal a kiss. In general I'm still not assertive enough to steal kisses or take full responsibility for the escalation, but this surely gives me motivation to push myself in this direction.

Stealing a kiss would have shifted the responsibility of the escalation from off her shoulders and put it completely on me. It would have been fairly straightforward then to seal the deal with her and give her what she wanted.

So if you're dealing with taken girls who like you but have strong ASD, you might wanna dial down the compliments and just take full charge.

Thoughts welcome.

-en

 

[Will_V]

You're basically right but the right solution was frame control. She didn't have a frame in which she felt excited enough to move forward with you, you needed to give wings to her desires so to speak, take her by the hand to a place where she can have whatever she wants and be whoever she wants.

Frame control is also not only about stimulating her desires but also telling her how you are thinking of things, which makes her secure in what your reaction to her behavior will be.

Getting physical might work or it might backfire as it would be very easy to trigger ASD again.

 

[HoofHearted]

???

This to me reads like there was a girl who had a boyfriend. And she saw your agenda (advances) and felt uncomfortable with them. Yet you continued for some reason to press on another person's communicated boundaries.

I may be interpreting it incorrectly. And I hope I am.

The water is wet moment is... when other people are telling you that something you're doing to them is making them uncomfortable to the point they start asking you to stop, *then you stop*.

 

[Higher]

@Will_V --

You're basically right but the right solution was frame control. She didn't have a frame in which she felt excited enough to move forward with you, you needed to give wings to her desires so to speak

Good point. Exactly what I had in mind when I thought about it, just not sure how to do it in the moment.

Thought about kiss-stealing just as an entry point to set the right frames and see if she would allow me to move forward. However this would have probably come too late and be seen as a reaction to her resistance more than a product of what you describe.

Thanks!

 

[Higher]

Yet you continued for some reason to press on another person's communicated boundaries.

I may be interpreting it incorrectly. And I hope I am.

Not only you misinterpreted it. You also didn't read it.

 

[Gladiator]

The best first step would have been to steal a kiss. In general I'm still not assertive enough to steal kisses or take full responsibility for the escalation, but this surely gives me motivation to push myself in this direction.

Stealing a kiss would have shifted the responsibility of the escalation from off her shoulders and put it completely on me. It would have been fairly straightforward then to seal the deal with her and give her what she wanted.

IMO, kiss is asking too much when she's already resistant.. escalation needn't have to be physical. You could escalate the vibe to test waters with eye-contact, proximity and asking for compliance..

Based on what you described, I'd have gone compliance > proximity > eye-contact > light touch and then based on the reaction, take the next step.. btw, compliments have to be earned imo..(one or two contextually is fine) otherwise you let the cat out completely

Anyway, I'd have done something like, asked her to come see something where you are.. like a view or whatever (asking compliance), if she complied then I'd get closer to her but not looking at her but at what I'm showing and breathe closer.. notice if she's comfy with proximity then accidental touches.. Then based on that.. make eye contact and based on that.. I'd brush her hair over her ear etc.. You don't need so many steps ideally but since she has a BF, by doing this you're communicating that you know what you're doing

P.S: I'd take a step back between all those steps fractionating to see her response

 

[Will_V]

@Will_V --


Good point. Exactly what I had in mind when I thought about it, just not sure how to do it in the moment.

Thought about kiss-stealing just as an entry point to set the right frames and see if she would allow me to move forward. However this would have probably come too late and be seen as a reaction to her resistance more than a product of what you describe.

If she won't accept a compliment it's very probable she'll resist a kiss since a kiss is way more of an escalation than a compliment. Only if she's very horny would it work in the moment, but it doesn't really sound like she was - more up in her head.

What did you talk to her about to increase sexual tension? When a girl is up in her head often talking is a good way to release things - talk about her dreams and what happened to them, her frustrations with her current situation, her past relationships and sexual escapades, etc. You're the one she can be open with and let it all out. And that puts her in a different frame of mind, one where she'll start to want you to touch her and turn her on. But if you dive in for a kiss while she's still confused about what she's doing, she'll probably bolt.

???

This to me reads like there was a girl who had a boyfriend. And she saw your agenda (advances) and felt uncomfortable with them. Yet you continued for some reason to press on another person's communicated boundaries.

I may be interpreting it incorrectly. And I hope I am.

The water is wet moment is... when other people are telling you that something you're doing to them is making them uncomfortable to the point they start asking you to stop, *then you stop*.

Girls who are committed to their boyfriends don't go camping and drinking wine with guys they've just met.

 

[HoofHearted]

Girls who are committed to their boyfriends don't go camping and drinking wine with guys they've just met.

I would actually like to know more about that.

A woman followed a man out into the woods that she a) wasn't sleeping with and b) hadn't even kissed yet and c) had difficulty receiving compliments from. My assumption was that there were other people there. Not a great assumption to make, but it's the sanest one I had (also, it occurs to me that OP may be a from a different country than me, so maybe something cultural going on).

But let's roll with the 1 on 1 camping trip assumption. Two non-lovers nestled tenderly in a tent in the middle of nowhere, no description of this moment in the OP. How did this situation obtain and what is the context?

 

[Skills]

Causation correlation and mental masturbation.... Something you did may have been uncalibrated and made her uncomfortable... then you got intimidated and backed off but didn't cont. The seduction.... a bunch of erroneous conclusions...she also has a boyfriend she may consider you a friend and thought you were hitting on her so she stop you cold when women reject sometimes they have to be over the top harsh so guys don't keep trying...

 

[Higher]

Thanks guys, this stuff helps a lot.

Clearly I either did something to make her uncomfortable or I didn't do enough to make her comfortable. Glad I didn't go for the kiss as I originally thought.

Ciao,
-en

 

[Chase]

@Enki,

You say she'd "love a roll in the hay" with you. Did she tell you this?

Just to lay out the details as you have them here:

1. Shy, conservative, presumably young and inexperienced girl. In other words, clueless and naïve.
2. Has a boyfriend long distance, albeit she's unhappy (probably unhappy that he's so far away).
3. You took said girl out into the woods, where she was (presumably) isolated alone with a man (you).
4. Was uncomfortable when you complimented her once.
5. Got even LESS comfortable when you complimented her a second time.
6. Angrily ordered you to stop and declared you made her feel uncomfortable.
7. You felt rejected in the moment and backed off.
8. However, on reflecting, you think what she REALLY needed was for you to "take full charge" and "force her hand."

I want to make a Sumerian mythology joke here about changing your username from Enki to Shukaletuda , but I know you don't actually mean that and you're just trying to troubleshoot situations like this.

What I will say here is that unless there are some MAJOR missing details, your first conclusion was CORRECT, and your second one way, WAY off.

This is seduction, man. It's not "take relentless charge until she gives up the puss!"

I know as a man it feels obvious to you that of course women must know you mean to bang them. Even if you aren't telling them to their faces, "Hey. I wanna bang you." So you assume if she's coming out someplace secluded she must "know what the deal is" and "wants it for sure." Sure, by the time she's 30 or so she'll have figured out men enough to know going alone in the woods with a guy who likes to flirt with her means that dude's planning to try to bang her... and if she agrees to that, then she either wants it too, or at least is curious about it but also knows she can handle herself / trusts the guy to not proceed if she doesn't want to.

Girls figure men out at different ages -- depends what their experiences with men are like. There are chicks in their late teens who know men better than other chicks in their late 20s. Girls you describe as "conservative" and "shy" typically have NOT figured men out at a young age... it takes them much longer.

I have known women who were in their middle 20s, had had several boyfriends, and still ended up in situations where some guy that, to ME, it was very obvious the guy wanted to bang them, but he didn't say it, and the girl had no idea until he suddenly made a move, and the girl was freaked out and couldn't believe he'd done that.

I'd just be like, "Well what did you expect?"

They'd be like, "I thought he was my FRIEND!"

I'd be like, "Friends don't do blah blah whatever the guy was doing. Do any of your girlfriends do that with you?"

They'd be like, "But he never tried to XYZ me before!"

Sexually inexperienced women in general tend to be extremely dumb about men and sex. Until a girl has had enough sex with enough men, or has had some bad encounters with guys who were overly aggressive, she will continue to be naïve.

The solution is that if you want to take a girl out into someplace very secluded, you first make sure she knows what the deal is.

Either grab a chick who's a lot more experienced, or one you've been dating and fooling around with already (making out, fingering, etc.).

I would also warn about "destination seductions." If the big plan is "once I get her to this secluded place on this special day, then she'll be mine!" I would reconsider that. I have seen plenty of guys plan these destination seductions only to be very disappointed to reach the destination with the girl and have her not put out. The best way to ensure the adventure is as fun as you hope is to shag her BEFORE you leave for the destination. Second best is to get a lot of making out, strong sexual chemistry, fingering/oral if you can manage it, etc., going on so it is just ON when you get there.

There is WAY more pressure on girls when you are escalating and they are in the middle of nowhere with you, too. If there is not a lot of trust there, and they are not already ready for it, the fear of wondering what you might do if they try to slow things down or back out can be enough to cripple the escalation.

Lastly dude... if a girl isn't even cool with a COMPLIMENT from you, she is DEFINITELY not going to be cool with physical escalation.

Unless she has some kind of really weird disposition with super low self-esteem or something... I don't know... but I have never had a girl reject compliments but be open to physical escalation.

Your original read was right. This was a rejection.

It isn't necessarily a rejection forever. Maybe if she breaks up with the long-distance boyfriend you'll be the first one she comes to.

But I wouldn't be placing too many chips on her square of the roulette table.

Keep meeting other gals.

On the positives: hey, this girl liked you and trusted you enough to go camping with you, a stranger she met via day game, in the woods. So clearly you are a cool, trustworthy guy.

Just got to work on making it a lot clearer what your intentions are, especially if the girls are conservative and naïve and you do not want to deal with a lot of resistance.

And also, stay away from pulling girls into secluded spots far from anywhere when they are dumb and clueless and are liable to get spooked once they realize just what kind of situation they got themselves into.

Chase

 

[Will_V]

Thanks guys, this stuff helps a lot.

Clearly I either did something to make her uncomfortable or I didn't do enough to make her comfortable. Glad I didn't go for the kiss as I originally thought.

Ciao,
-en

Was there any kind of sexual tension in your interactions since you first met her out in daygame?

I assume there was, since I can't imagine any daygame scenario I could run where she'd think I just wanted to be friends - I mean would a girl really think a guy would come up, compliment her, tease her etc and take her number just to be friends?

What was the frame leading up to going camping together? Again, I would assume a girl who has a guy come up and take her number and then invite her out camping and drinking wine would have some idea what's up.

Hard for me to believe that this could be a case of her not knowing you wanted her unless you dialled the sexual tension to -100.

Overall I think, like I said originally, that frame is exactly what was missing here. Somehow she was in a completely different headspace than you - and it's your job to make things clear enough to her that she can make the choices she wants to make for herself without any surprises.

And I would add that camping alone together (if that's what it was) probably isn't the best choice of date for a girl with a boyfriend, since it makes it easier for her to concoct something if she panics later and has buyers remorse.

 

[HoofHearted]

And I would add that camping alone together (if that's what it was) probably isn't the best choice of date for a girl with a boyfriend, since it makes it easier for her to concoct something if she panics later and has buyers remorse.

You're saying that the biggest concern in this situation is that the girl may do something consensually, reflect upon it/reinterpret it later, not like the memory and make an accusation?

The stated concern isn't about hygiene (camp sex is really dirty and really intimate, particularly on a multi-day trip/dicks smell bad in the woods), or emotional consideration (how much harder is it to tell a man 'no' in this context? Which we still don't know why the woman was in it in the first place).

The stated concern seems to be about a false accusation of sexual assault/a pre-eminent defense of the man. But if you read the OP, at that moment in time, who is actually the vulnerable person?

I think the reflex that presents this arisen attitude is just no good. Yes, a man should screen for the *small* percent of women who would be capable of filing a false allegation against him-- I bet we could find a lot of them if we played 'guess who's a big crazy.' I wish the emphasis for men would shift from 'consensual sex at all costs' to a seeking of 'positive sexual experiences.' And I wish men could understand the elements of OP's post that failed to build toward a 'positive sexual experience' and put him and the girl in a dicey situation at best.

 

[Will_V]

You're saying that the biggest concern in this situation is that the girl may do something consensually, reflect upon it/reinterpret it later, not like the memory and make an accusation?

The stated concern isn't about hygiene (camp sex is really dirty and really intimate, particularly on a multi-day trip/dicks smell bad in the woods), or emotional consideration (how much harder is it to tell a man 'no' in this context? Which we still don't know why the woman was in it in the first place).

The stated concern seems to be about a false accusation of sexual assault/a pre-eminent defense of the man. But if you read the OP, at that moment in time, who is actually the vulnerable person?

I think the reflex that presents this arisen attitude is just no good. Yes, a man should screen for the *small* percent of women who would be capable of filing a false allegation against him-- I bet we could find a lot of them if we played 'guess who's a big crazy.' I wish the emphasis for men would shift from 'consensual sex at all costs' to a seeking of 'positive sexual experiences.' And I wish men could understand the elements of OP's post that failed to build toward a 'positive sexual experience' and put him and the girl in a dicey situation at best.

I'm not clear on what you're trying to say here, from what we know @Enki invited her out camping, she agreed, and he committed the egregious crime of complimenting her too much. Or is there something I'm missing?

My assumption here is that @Enki has good intentions but maybe hasn't learned a whole lot of calibration. So that's where my frame comes from.

If the girl chose to come out with him, that was her choice, and she considered it safe enough. As long as he respects her boundaries (and she apparently thanked him for the compliment right before the one where she got pissed, so it might have been a surprise for him - and also didn't pursue things after he saw she was uncomfortable) I don't see what the setting has to do with a non-positive experience for her. For him though it seems a bit risky.

Overall this sounds like the dude just didn't read things right and set a very poor frame for what he wanted to do, and ended up putting himself and her in an uncomfortable position. Which is why setting a clear sexual frame is very important, especially in situations where she's attached to someone else.

Again, if you think there's something I'm missing, let me know.

 

[Higher]

@Chase --

Thanks for chiming in.

I see now how bad my OP was.

As you said, I just tried to understand what went wrong. You guys pointed me to the right direction -- that in fact a kiss or any other escalation would have been the worst step to take. No bad intentions here and not at all interested in what you refer to with the username change.

I noticed her nervousness while being alone with me, but I still underestimated her emotional state during my follow-up thinking. Glad I didn't make things worse.

I suspect she was at least considering the idea of being seen naked, since she had black lace underwear (saw it when she changed quickly in the tent). Although who knows, maybe she always wears it when hiking/camping. I'll probably never know.

Definitely not gonna fixate on this one. I sent her a "thank you for the trip" text as kind of an olive branch, but it's up to her now. If she's not interested, she's not interested.

--

@Will_V, @HoofHearted --

It's fully clear now based on you guys' feedback that a full field report with all the details would have been way better than my confusing OP.

My bad.

When we first met, we were at the train station. She stared at me and I stared at her. I posted myself at a wall, and she positioned herself in front of me. I kept ignoring her, then the train arrived and we hopped in. I sat in an empty area, and she sat right in front of me while looking at me. I went on ignoring her for like 10 minutes as she started texting, then she looked at me again. At that point I opened and we made conversation. We were both going on separate hikes, and I suggested we went together. She agreed.

During the hike I complimented her a few times and did some light touching. She never showed signs of discomfort, otherwise I would have backed off immediately. At some point she suggested we take a selfie, and we did. I kept on with some compliments ("i really love your energy", "damn, your eyes are pretty") and light touching. Again, I didn't pick up any bad reaction. When walking, I increased the distance between us multiple times, and she always got closer to me.

On the train back home, we exchanged numbers and I said "alright then...". She said "we'll see us again" and we hugged.

I ignored her for a while, then she sent me a video of one of her new hikes. We did some chit-chat and I lightly teased her on becoming a famous and rich scientist (she's a PhD student). She kept texting and asking me questions even after my minimal answers.

After that, we ignored each other for another month or so. She then texted me all of a sudden suggesting a spontaneous hike. I told her I couldn't that day, and I suggested the two of us go camping alone instead on another day. She agreed and said it "sounds good to me!!". She displayed high energy in the follow-up texts, with smile emojis and exclamation marks.

After all this, I definitely had the impression that she didn't see me as a friend. That's why Will's "missing frame" pointer made the most sense to me. And that's exactly what I wanted to get at with my OP. I realize I didn't do a good job while writing it.

I also see now how camping was probably not the best choice in this case. Should have suggested a drink in my city or hers instead.

EDIT: the follow-up camping trip was basically in the same vein as the first hike -- i.e., light flirting, touching and deep-diving. I don't recall any faux-pas on my side apart from not setting the right frame, although maybe I'm just overseeing some huge mistakes.

--

Thanks again all for taking the time and bearing with the confusion!

-en

 

[HoofHearted]

I'm not clear on what you're trying to say here, from what we know @Enki invited her out camping, she agreed, and he committed the egregious crime of complimenting her too much. Or is there something I'm missing?

My assumption here is that @Enki has good intentions but maybe hasn't learned a whole lot of calibration. So that's where my frame comes from.

Interpreting the OP in this way is a pro-social move. 'He's not a bad guy,' you seem to want to say. That's a nice trait to have, and good on you the world needs more of it, but it doesn't need to come at the expense of critical analysis of our situations or what may or may not be uncomfortably true.

I don't know the moral worth of OP as a person. He may very well be a 'good guy.' He seems fine. This interaction, in my opinion, lacked wisdom-- seemingly because he was so focused in one perspective and in one thing. This is also a human experience, and everyone has been chock full of bad ideas and made mistakes before. Were his intentions good? Or were they... average, and producing average results? Were they, to some degree, unconscious? I really don't know. After reading his explanation, I am even more confused, though less convinced that he murders people (hyperbole, no offense).

At the heart of this is really just an idea. The notion that a man is 'running game' and a women is essentially 'doing nothing really' but responding to 'his game.' I feel it is why I see so much posted that is so one-sided in perspective. I like much better the model of rather than something person A is doing to person B ('seducing' them), that something is happening that two people are 'doing together.' Not unlike a dance, or a leather flogging. You would probably agree with this. Well, maybe not the flogging...

Re-humanize the woman is the ask, I guess, in these pictures. The way men describe things, its like their brain is stuck in input-output mode, "If I do X she does Y" and "I am running my game" and this inherently a form of objectification.

One could say the man is 'leading' (but the truth about these things, at higher levels, the distinction fades away between 'leading' and 'following.' For conceptual purposes, let's just say 'leading.') We are then left at the notion that OP *led* this. He therefore 'owns' a significant piece of its quality and outcome. And a piece of what she experiences (and vice versa, obviously).

He's still learning, as are all of us, and mistakes were made. For example, generally when creating/leading these experiences, you would want an easier exit available for her, if she'd like it. Generally, before you share such deeply trustful and intimate moments together as sleeping side by side or spending days (?) together you have some level of developed and emotional understanding of each other. Rather than say, wondering what 'it is' while 'it' is happening ("Are we just friends? What's our status? Do I 'go for it'?"). Less invested experiences, like grabbing a drink and then having sex or whatever, often precede these activities of out of town trips or other commitments for good reason-- the cards, to some level, have already been shown and played and there is context now. No big surprises "I thought we were just friends, why are you touching me?!" etc etc.

(But this fails to consider outside circumstances where people just want the rush of getting their rocks off with strangers in the woods. That level of play always involves a level of risk. But unless you're intentionally playing that way, why stumble into any of this and take that kind of risk? Anyways...)

 

[Skills]

@Chase --

Thanks for chiming in.

I see now how bad my OP was.

As you said, I just tried to understand what went wrong. You guys pointed me to the right direction -- that in fact a kiss or any other escalation would have been the worst step to take. No bad intentions here and not at all interested in what you refer to with the username change.

I noticed her nervousness while being alone with me, but I still underestimated her emotional state during my follow-up thinking. Glad I didn't make things worse.

I suspect she was at least considering the idea of being seen naked, since she had black lace underwear (saw it when she changed quickly in the tent). Although who knows, maybe she always wears it when hiking/camping. I'll probably never know.

Definitely not gonna fixate on this one. I sent her a "thank you for the trip" text as kind of an olive branch, but it's up to her now. If she's not interested, she's not interested.

--

@Will_V, @HoofHearted --

It's fully clear now based on you guys' feedback that a full field report with all the details would have been way better than my confusing OP.

My bad.

When we first met, we were at the train station. She stared at me and I stared at her. I posted myself at a wall, and she positioned herself in front of me. I kept ignoring her, then the train arrived and we hopped in. I sat in an empty area, and she sat right in front of me while looking at me. I went on ignoring her for like 10 minutes as she started texting, then she looked at me again. At that point I opened and we made conversation. We were both going on separate hikes, and I suggested we went together. She agreed.

During the hike I complimented her a few times and did some light touching. She never showed signs of discomfort, otherwise I would have backed off immediately. At some point she suggested we take a selfie, and we did. I kept on with some compliments ("i really love your energy", "damn, your eyes are pretty") and light touching. Again, I didn't pick up any bad reaction. When walking, I increased the distance between us multiple times, and she always got closer to me.

On the train back home, we exchanged numbers and I said "alright then...". She said "we'll see us again" and we hugged.

I ignored her for a while, then she sent me a video of one of her new hikes. We did some chit-chat and I lightly teased her on becoming a famous and rich scientist (she's a PhD student). She kept texting and asking me questions even after my minimal answers.

After that, we ignored each other for another month or so. She then texted me all of a sudden suggesting a spontaneous hike. I told her I couldn't that day, and I suggested the two of us go camping alone instead on another day. She agreed and said it "sounds good to me!!". She displayed high energy in the follow-up texts, with smile emojis and exclamation marks.

After all this, I definitely had the impression that she didn't see me as a friend. That's why Will's "missing frame" pointer made the most sense to me. And that's exactly what I wanted to get at with my OP. I realize I didn't do a good job while writing it.

I also see now how camping was probably not the best choice in this case. Should have suggested a drink in my city or hers instead.

EDIT: the follow-up camping trip was basically in the same vein as the first hike -- i.e., light flirting, touching and deep-diving. I don't recall any faux-pas on my side apart from not setting the right frame, although maybe I'm just overseeing some huge mistakes.

--

Thanks again all for taking the time and bearing with the confusion!

-en

yeah so will is right, it seems there was some interest on her part and you were gauging her reactions correctly..... It seems she probably at some point had a state change, or something made her uncomfortable or buyers remorse.... girls that just broke up or going through those final break up stages have to be dealt with a delicate balance at times they are conflicted, they go hot and cold fast, get sudden depression at sadness at times during the seduction is a delicate balance.... (actually i was about to write a post on this), seduction is a tiny bit different.......

 

[Will_V]

@Chase --

Thanks for chiming in.

I see now how bad my OP was.

As you said, I just tried to understand what went wrong. You guys pointed me to the right direction -- that in fact a kiss or any other escalation would have been the worst step to take. No bad intentions here and not at all interested in what you refer to with the username change.

I noticed her nervousness while being alone with me, but I still underestimated her emotional state during my follow-up thinking. Glad I didn't make things worse.

I suspect she was at least considering the idea of being seen naked, since she had black lace underwear (saw it when she changed quickly in the tent). Although who knows, maybe she always wears it when hiking/camping. I'll probably never know.

Definitely not gonna fixate on this one. I sent her a "thank you for the trip" text as kind of an olive branch, but it's up to her now. If she's not interested, she's not interested.

--

@Will_V, @HoofHearted --

It's fully clear now based on you guys' feedback that a full field report with all the details would have been way better than my confusing OP.

My bad.

When we first met, we were at the train station. She stared at me and I stared at her. I posted myself at a wall, and she positioned herself in front of me. I kept ignoring her, then the train arrived and we hopped in. I sat in an empty area, and she sat right in front of me while looking at me. I went on ignoring her for like 10 minutes as she started texting, then she looked at me again. At that point I opened and we made conversation. We were both going on separate hikes, and I suggested we went together. She agreed.

During the hike I complimented her a few times and did some light touching. She never showed signs of discomfort, otherwise I would have backed off immediately. At some point she suggested we take a selfie, and we did. I kept on with some compliments ("i really love your energy", "damn, your eyes are pretty") and light touching. Again, I didn't pick up any bad reaction. When walking, I increased the distance between us multiple times, and she always got closer to me.

On the train back home, we exchanged numbers and I said "alright then...". She said "we'll see us again" and we hugged.

I ignored her for a while, then she sent me a video of one of her new hikes. We did some chit-chat and I lightly teased her on becoming a famous and rich scientist (she's a PhD student). She kept texting and asking me questions even after my minimal answers.

After that, we ignored each other for another month or so. She then texted me all of a sudden suggesting a spontaneous hike. I told her I couldn't that day, and I suggested the two of us go camping alone instead on another day. She agreed and said it "sounds good to me!!". She displayed high energy in the follow-up texts, with smile emojis and exclamation marks.

After all this, I definitely had the impression that she didn't see me as a friend. That's why Will's "missing frame" pointer made the most sense to me. And that's exactly what I wanted to get at with my OP. I realize I didn't do a good job while writing it.

I also see now how camping was probably not the best choice in this case. Should have suggested a drink in my city or hers instead.

EDIT: the follow-up camping trip was basically in the same vein as the first hike -- i.e., light flirting, touching and deep-diving. I don't recall any faux-pas on my side apart from not setting the right frame, although maybe I'm just overseeing some huge mistakes.

--

Thanks again all for taking the time and bearing with the confusion!

-en

Don't sweat it brother, these things happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong but seems to me like she might have been slightly autistic or something, or just had some issues reading cues and putting out the right signals. You never know with these PhD girls.

According to what you've said, she certainly did enough to make a man think she was interested at some level. And then to suddenly react angrily to a compliment, that's not the way a typical girl would behave. But regardless, you did right to pull back after that, as you have realized now.
..

One time I met a woman in daygame (early thirties probably) who turned out was a neuroscientist and a psychologist. We had an interesting conversation but although I turned up the eye contact and cheeky smiles, I couldn't seem to escalate the vibe much. She knew what was up though and teased me for going out and talking to girls, that's why I liked her. I got the number but it fizzled out as I knew something wasn't quite right.

We ran into eachother a couple of times while I was out gaming and used to go walking together and talk about all sorts of stuff - she was the one that asked me the question that brought out the answer to one of my biggest questions in life - but that's another story.

Anyway, we'd walk near my place and a couple of times I tried to pull, and she balked - I mean really balked, something made her very uncomfortable. Her reaction wasn't to me, it was to something else going on in her psyche. It didn't surprise me, I've dealt with a number of psychologists on other people's behalf, and as they say they usually go into the profession to fix themselves first of all. But when I saw her reaction I knew right away that she had stuff to deal with and didn't push. But she was always very happy to go walking with me, and since she was a smart and curious woman with good conversation, I enjoyed it.

Later on she told me stuff like how she'd always felt like a boy or something like that, not sure I believed her .. but point is that she had stuff going on under the surface. And me pulling triggered it. Who knows? Maybe she had some bad experiences, there's certainly enough desperate guys out there to give a woman a bad time. Or maybe she just had trouble socially and that spilled over into her sexual life. The reality is that the same way not every guy is ready to be a seducer, not every woman is ready to be seduced.
..

Anyway, I think the key lesson here is: don't go taking girls camping alone with you as a second date. It's not the most comfortable place for her to navigate the courtship. And if it was this easy for experienced seducers to get their wires crossed about it, imagine trying to convince someone who has never heard of the term 'daygame' before. Protect yourself at all times, as the ref says.

Looking forward to your future reports!

 

[Higher]

Correct me if I'm wrong but seems to me like she might have been slightly autistic or something, or just had some issues reading cues and putting out the right signals.

Hmm not sure, could be. For sure she's quite a bit excitable and maybe not a great communicator. Or I might be a bad reader/listener.

she was the one that asked me the question that brought out the answer to one of my biggest questions in life - but that's another story.

Curious to read about this someday.

-en