Concluding Thoughts on Direct/Indirect Game

[Velasco]

Original Post / reference guide for this post

Posted September 16, 2020 (updated with some corrections):

For me, what's going through these chicks mind as you talk to them, is they're wondering, "why is he asking/saying THIS to me?"

When you open a chick by asking for directions/entrance to X. She's gonna respond with the directions to X (or say, "idk sorry")...cause that's what she thinks is why you asked her that question. Anything else BEYOND what an average joe looking for directions / making basic small talk would say to her, will be interpreted as flirting. And once she knows you're flirting (telling her what game you're playing...credit: @Dreamer for recommending this post in the chat), she can either choose to play along or not.

So when you give her a direct compliment ("your gorgeous/cute")...again.... She's immediately thinking, "WHY is he saying THIS to me?" Oh it's because he's interested in me. Which causes her to reveal (indirectly or directly) both her availability (single or taken) and interest level in you based on your looks+vibe (varying from being mildly interested in you (yellows) to highly interested in you (green)). She'll either be:

1a. Single and (highly) interested
1b. Single and (mildly) interested
2. Single but uninterested
3a. Taken but (highly) interested
3b. Taken but (mildly) interested
4. Taken and uninterested

The girls that respond well to any openers (....as long as you have an ounce of social intelligence) besides direct openers...which might only hook Category 1a and 3a girls)...cold reads, situational openers,etc...are girls that are interested (girls in categories 1a, 1b, 3a, 3b and 4).

After getting a conversation started with a receptive set, you'd want to (indirectly) find out her availability (ideally sooner rather than later to save yourself from wasting time with a sneaky category 4 girl). Does she have a man? And how into her man is she? If it's not that strong ("he's such a nice guy"), then know...that an SNL is possible...game on (might have to set some Anti-ASD frames tho).
_________________________________________

Alek's Compliance Game Premise: Show the girl interest AFTER she has shown YOU interest.

Keywords in this thread:

• A1 - Compliance Generating Tactics/Flirting (teasing/cold reads/intrigue/pacing/authority frame on topic).
• A2 - Female To Male Interest (Indicators Of Interest/Approach Invitations/Investing/Compliance).
• A3 - Male To Female Interest (Non-Verbal (eye contact, touch, body language) or Verbal (compliment and statement of interest).
• Fundamentals - Face, Height, Frame, Eye Contact, Facial Expressions, Body Language, Fashion.

• Direct Game - Unambiguous A3 (BOTH your Non-Verbals and Verbals tells her your interested)
• Indirect Game - Ambiguous A3 (ONLY your Non-Verbals tells her your interested) + A1

• Direct Game - relies solely on your Fundamentals for A2 (assumes it on a true cold approach (no Indicators Of Interest before opening). Meaning if she thinks your Fundamentals are just OK (mildly interested) then she’ll pass on you *
• Indirect Game - buys you time (because your Verbals haven’t revealed your interest level in her yet) to use A1 techs to make an mildly interested girl compliant.

The mere fact that you are using A1 tactics on her, indicates to her that your flirting with her. Meaning she needs to be at least somewhat interested in you first to want to see if your charming personality can make up for your ok fundamentals.

* A higher percentage Direct Game opener is (because it buys you a few more seconds for her to really check out your fundamentals), the delayed Direct opener A.K.A. The Indirect-Direct Game opener.

 

[Skills]

i read all these direct and indirect articles and discussions..

if someone is knew and going through the cold approaching stages, after opening indirect to kill approach anxiety for a few days, direct is good to show intent and balls...

if someone has very little time to engage in an interaction direct is good too(rush)...

indirect and situational it is a way to buy time to gather intelligence on the situation, angles, calibrations, framings and body language reads from both parties, the hunter and target.... simple (which is why most people eventually will favor indirect/situational)...

if we go by the forum and you read the journals the direct guys are getting laid a lot even more than the indirect... all things being equal (level/outings etc...)

It comes down to preference at the end of the day what is going to get you out of the house and interacting with women...

but as you can see when it comes to odds indirect will give you higher odds, i will give another of my silly sports analogy....

lets say you have a quaterback that have 5 seconds to throw the ball or a basket ball player that is open = higher % of success (situational indirect)

lets say you have a quaterback with 2 seconds to get rid of the ball and a basketball player guarded = direct...= less %success

^ but if is at the end of the game the clock running out is the other way around...

Even when i make phone calls to clients a lot of them go "i don't understand what he saying" at the end of the phone call they are asking me all type of personal questions, flirting, etc...


women complain to me all the time THAT MEN ARE NOT APPROACHING(other than black men to be fair,no racist), anyways, and they are getting the same from the female friends...

 

[terminator92]

Why does it feel that the guys who swear by direct, need to discredit and disprove what @Teevster is saying in order to continue believing in direct? If the direct guys are so damn sure that they can accomplish everything that old school indirect game can accomplish by being direct then forget about it and go be direct.

I understand why Alek is posting and presenting the other side of the argument. To people who became aware of the community post 2010 like me, we were made to believe that indirect was flawed/weird/being a pussy etc. and that direct was the only way to go. There is hardly any guys out there who are even presenting indirect game as an option much less teaching guys how to run indirect game. I really appreciate Alek's efforts here as I was brainwashed since day 1 that direct was the only way to Game and only recently have I become open to the idea of indirect and trying to explore it and seeing it as an option. Apart from the old school stuff, there is really nothing to go by when it comes to indirect and Alek is one of the few guys trying to fight against the tide of direct/natural game that has spread like a tsunami across the community.

 

[Skills]

Why does it feel that the guys who swear by direct, need to discredit and disprove what @Teevster is saying in order to continue believing in direct? If the direct guys are so damn sure that they can accomplish everything that old school indirect game can accomplish by being direct then forget about it and go be direct.

I understand why Alek is posting and presenting the other side of the argument. To people who became aware of the community post 2010 like me, we were made to believe that indirect was flawed/weird/being a pussy etc. and that direct was the only way to go. There is hardly any guys out there who are even presenting indirect game as an option much less teaching guys how to run indirect game. I really appreciate Alek's efforts here as I was brainwashed since day 1 that direct was the only way to Game and only recently have I become open to the idea of indirect and trying to explore it and seeing it as an option. Apart from the old school stuff, there is really nothing to go by when it comes to indirect and Alek is one of the few guys trying to fight against the tide of direct/natural game that has spread like a tsunami across the community.

yeah and a lot of people think indirect is mm opinion openers..(most people associate indirect with mystery method) which by the way in itself got a lot of people laid as well..

 

[terminator92]

yeah and a lot of people think indirect is mm opinion openers..(most people associate indirect with mystery method) which by the way in itself got a lot of people laid as well..

Yeah if you google around for indirect Game you get nothing except the old stuff. MM and Discovery (aka Shaun Micheal) and Beckster both wings of Mystery apart from Mystery himself are the only ones who still seem to be teaching indirect and routines etc. There is no one else. On Youtube you only find videos of guys dissing on Mystery. Its like the entire community has been brainwashed and wants to stomp out any argument that is made for indirect in order for them to continue believing in direct. @Velasco for some reason seems to be leading this charge. And Alek and Razorjack among others who were making a case for it even in a earlier thread were being ridiculed in what seemed to be an overenthusiastic attempt to disprove their method.

 

[DarkKnight]

I too am really happy with the technical indirect posts of Alek.. I am a very direct kind of guy.. but I know that is not true seduction. Its just playing the numbers

 

[Skills]

Yeah if you google around for indirect Game you get nothing except the old stuff. MM and Discovery (aka Shaun Micheal) and Beckster both wings of Mystery apart from Mystery himself are the only ones who still seem to be teaching indirect and routines etc. There is no one else. On Youtube you only find videos of guys dissing on Mystery. Its like the entire community has been brainwashed and wants to stomp out any argument that is made for indirect in order for them to continue believing in direct. @Velasco for some reason seems to be leading this charge. And Alek and Razorjack among others who were making a case for it even in a earlier thread were being ridiculed in what seemed to be an overenthusiastic attempt to disprove their method.

I don't think velasco is really doing that though with malice, he is putting out what a lot of other people believe (different point of view), by the way chase did the same...

 

[Skills]

I too am really happy with the technical indirect posts of Alek.. I am a very direct kind of guy.. but I know that is not true seduction. Its just playing the numbers

opening the girl has nothing to do with "true seduction" it comes down to preference and situation... Read chase article:

On Pick Up Artist "What Works Better?" Debates

What's the best way to pick up girls? Is it tactic A or tactic B? Is Method M superior to Methods S and C? Here's the true exposé on what works best and why. Wanna know one thing that will definitely never help you do better with girls? Boasting about how your way to get girls is better than...

www.girlschase.com

Everything works! - PUA Forum

 

[Velasco]

Its like the entire community has been brainwashed and wants to stomp out any argument that is made for indirect in order for them to continue believing in direct. @Velasco for some reason seems to be leading this charge. And Alek and Razorjack among others who were making a case for it even in a earlier thread were being ridiculed in what seemed to be an overenthusiastic attempt to disprove their method.

I am not leading any charge. This post was on why direct game works (because you are showing interest AFTER she has shown YOU interest (Alek's Compliance Game Premise) (and the girls you can expect to get from direct game) and why indirect game works (and the girls you can expect to get from indirect game).

I'm an Indirect (only my Non-Verbals tell the girl I'm interested, my Verbals are A1 techs) screener (go for Down To Fuck (logistics is a factor in this. See Teevster's comments below) sexually attractive girls). (see any of my field reports for evidence).

As far as I'm concerned, so are Teevster and RazorJack.

Teevster:

I will respond to this briefly since my hand is already hurting.

It can be split into three phases:
- Spot approach invitations - eye contact, girl standing next to you (without facing you), girls bumping into you. The approach invitations are usually subtle - very subtle and sometimes hard to spot. This used to be called "AI" (approach invitation)
- Induce approach invitation - bump into her accidentally, and see how she responds. You can also do a "hover" (cred Gunwitch) by standing next to her without facing her until she notices you (and then approach). You may also just get her attention by doing something next to her and see how she responds or walk by and high five, see how she reacts and so on....This is usually done if she approach invitation is too unclear or simply absent. This used to be called "pAImAI" (pre-approach invitation, male-approach invitation)
- Screening - is she alone, in a corner, with tons of friends, is she attention whoring? is she with dudes? and so on. This can give me info about how hard things will be.

Here is my system:

• I do not approach a girl based on whether or not she has given me an approach invitation. I frankly don’t care. I believe in my skills, and I think a lot of the fun lies in actually seducing a girl. I also know from experience that some women don’t even give approach invitations – and I surely do not want to miss out on those. That being said, if I do get an approach invitation, I of course capitalize on it.
• I do not look for girls who are obviously ovulating or super horny. I screen out intoxicated girls for both practical and moral reasons. However, the horny girl is a go unless she is too annoying and attention seeking (a turn-off for me). I usually don’t mind going for them, but I surely don’t rely on it – I don’t screen for it.
• However, I do screen out girls based on their logistical situations. I find it annoying and not fun at all dealing with shitty logistics. Dealing with bad logistics during the initial approach is not only difficult (really difficult) but super annoying and has a low success rate. For example, if a girl is surrounded by a lot of dudes, I will screen her out; if she is in a really big “intern” group, I will screen her out. If she is sitting in a very closed off area, I might screen her out – although she remains an option for reconsiderations.

How Screening Game (Sniper Game) Compares to Traditional Game

Screening game or sniper game is targeting your approach to girls who seem open to you. It has pros over traditional game – but also cons. Content 1. Definition of Screening Game 2. Which is More Efficient? 3. Screening Game & Social Momentum 4. Which is More Exciting? 5. Which is Harder? 6...

www.girlschase.com

RazorJack:

I approach in a way that creates sexual tension and that is by touching her and letting her know that I’m interested in her right from the beginning. I want her to know why I’m talking to her.

Razorjack: Putting it all together

Now that I’ve given you the basic knowledge, it’s time to put it all together into your very own style. Now I don’t care how you go about im...

pufinest.blogspot.com

Lost money you can always get back and make more, lost time you can never get back. So purely focused on time efficiency, if I was doing pick up in Scandinavia I would go for the "easy 8" (or "easy 10") all day everyday over the "time consuming 10", simply because of the time it takes to close.

 

[DarkKnight]

@Skills I didn't write just opening.

 

[terminator92]

I am not leading any charge. This post was on why direct game works (because you are showing interest AFTER she has shown YOU interest (Alek's Compliance Game Premise) (and the girls you can expect to get from direct game) and why indirect game works (and the girls you can expect to get from indirect game).

I am a indirect (only my Non-Verbals tell the girl I'm interested, my verbals are A1 techs) screener (go for Down To Fuck (logistics is a factor in this. See Teevster's comments below) sexually attractive girls). (see any of my field reports for evidence).

As far as I'm concerned, so are Teevster and RazorJack.

Teevster:



Here is my system:

• I do not approach a girl based on whether or not she has given me an approach invitation. I frankly don’t care. I believe in my skills, and I think a lot of the fun lies in actually seducing a girl. I also know from experience that some women don’t even give approach invitations – and I surely do not want to miss out on those. That being said, if I do get an approach invitation, I of course capitalize on it.
• I do not look for girls who are obviously ovulating or super horny. I screen out intoxicated girls for both practical and moral reasons. However, the horny girl is a go unless she is too annoying and attention seeking (a turn-off for me). I usually don’t mind going for them, but I surely don’t rely on it – I don’t screen for it.
• However, I do screen out girls based on their logistical situations. I find it annoying and not fun at all dealing with shitty logistics. Dealing with bad logistics during the initial approach is not only difficult (really difficult) but super annoying and has a low success rate. For example, if a girl is surrounded by a lot of dudes, I will screen her out; if she is in a really big “intern” group, I will screen her out. If she is sitting in a very closed off area, I might screen her out – although she remains an option for reconsiderations.

How Screening Game (Sniper Game) Compares to Traditional Game

Screening game or sniper game is targeting your approach to girls who seem open to you. It has pros over traditional game – but also cons. Content 1. Definition of Screening Game 2. Which is More Efficient? 3. Screening Game & Social Momentum 4. Which is More Exciting? 5. Which is Harder? 6...

www.girlschase.com

RazorJack:

I approach in a way that creates sexual tension and that is by touching her and letting her know that I’m interested in her right from the beginning. I want her to know why I’m talking to her.

Razorjack: Putting it all together

Now that I’ve given you the basic knowledge, it’s time to put it all together into your very own style. Now I don’t care how you go about im...

pufinest.blogspot.com

Well, there isn't really anyone out there claiming that direct does not work. That would be stupid! Everyone who is in the community knows it works (or should know it works). There are literally hundreds of videos out there to show that it does. In that thread, neither Alek nor Razorjack deny that direct work. They both agree that if you want to get laid asap go direct and screen for greens. But later on in the thread @Velasco starts becoming a bit sarcastic, and there are quite a few snide remarks by him trying to ridicule what Alek and Razorjack are saying which was a shame to see on such a great thread. There is literally no place on the internet where this discussion is being had and it is eye opening for anyone into pickup.

 

[Velasco]

First you accuse me of leading a direct game charge, now I'm ridiculing some of the guys I've learned from?

Just lol....I really don't know what to say.

 

[terminator92]

First you accuse me of leading a direct game charge, now I'm ridiculing some of the guys I've learned from?

Just lol....I really don't know what to say.

Attraction - Can it be Generated? - An Introduction to Compliance-Based Game

It's just 2020 and you guys are still having the same dumb discussion as 2002. I disagree here. Yes newbies where rationalizing back then. This has always been the case. But what seems to be the new trend is that newbies tend to be "VERY SURE OF THEMSELVES". And of course, they never ask...

www.skilledseducer.com

This was Razorjack replying to what seemed like sarcasm from you. But anyways not important and don't want to derail this thread. Btw I have learnt a lot from you as well. So I have no vendetta against you dude. Don't mistake me! I love the discussions on this forum.

 

[Skjöldr]

Direct (as vebal opener) is low level game let's be honest here. It doesn't require alot of thought. It isn't calibrated, for the single reason you open the same way no matter the circumstances (uncalibrated). You can calibrate on your delivery, but that's only a little bit (Like waiting for her to stop, waiting for her to pause her music and take earphones out, talking slowly, talking loudly etc.) But by and large it isn't calibrated.

That said i do only direct opening (except few cases out of hundreds i can count on my hands) and in the gym (Hey, i haven't seen you here before/Hey i've seen you here before, what's your name?..." I'm only 3.5 months into game and still getting grip on the basics. I have gotten laid 5 times from it, so it does work. However i fully agree it is low-level game. Direct was easy to boil down and mass market to the masses and make big cash. Even i can still not wrap my head around all the reality-pacing, gambits, routines etc. shit, though having read about it, i realize i do some of it naturally (i think). Still haven't put it into system yet.

I belive you gotta keep it simple starting out. Do mass-approaching with direct opening and work on your fundamentals to kill AA and get the basics under your skin. I believe advanced game is indirect-direct. That is, opening indirect and being verbally indirect, but projecting sexual intent (direct) non-verbally or indirectly (story-telling etc.) until you got her seduced. To beginners, get AA killed and do direct-opening based cold approach (if daygame) and then improve one thing at a time. At the moment i'm focusing on improving my ability to get girls to hook. My sticking point was direct opening and then moving straight into social guy comfort and hooking girls solely on my opener and fundamentals (delivery, voice-projection, body language, looks, fashion etc.)(ineffecient). I think this is a good process, learning things one thing at a time and not overloading on theory. Everytime i go out i have 1-3 things i tell myself i'm gonna focus on today. Keep it that way.

 

[Skills]

is no low level game, what you do after the opener is what is important, is not like you guys open and the girls say "shit that is a good opener let me fuck him"

Style's point was that you could not ever pick up a girl who was an "8 or better" with direct game. You could only use indirect for this.

Dimitri's point was that he had the most luck picking up girls who were "8s or better" with direct game.

I've never rolled with Style, but I spent a fair bit of time rolling with Dimitri, and I watched him pick up some of the most beautiful women I've witnessed any guy I've rolled with pick up, in the single fastest pickups I've seen guys I've rolled with pull off. A stunning young French stewardess he same-day laid off the beach right after we'd swum the Mediterranean (turned out we'd accidentally switched hotel keys, so he shagged her in my room and used my condoms. I had to call the cleaning service after, my room was so destroyed...). A pair of beautiful, flashy, and shapely Japanese girls we picked up off the street outside an L.A. club. Many others. All with direct openers.

I was a pure indirect guy at the beginning (more because I lacked the balls to go direct then, than that I didn't know how to do it). Dimitri urged me to try direct, so I did. And I found it worked very well for me.

I also found it worked better in some situations than in others. Some of the most beautiful, incredible girls I've been with I picked up I picked up with direct. Others of them I picked up with indirect.

I say all this to preface this post, which is not about direct vs. indirect, but instead something else: getting into stupid debates where you tell other guys that stuff they do that is working for them DOESN'T work is stupid.

as you can see you got laid 5 times, it was not cause your opener, trust me...

I went on a trip to brazil for example and in brazil good luck doing indirect.... Certain african american (hip hop type demographic) same thing good luck doing indirect...

Anyways guys all of this direct indirect for me is extremely silly.... The dude i learn from street game back in the days was a black natural here was the game: sooo what sup? with low sexy voice...


Are you here waiting/shopping/fill in the blank for or with your boyfriend??

Oh you don't have a boyfriend??? dammm

There are night game situations were you need to be extremely direct and escalate super fast....

There are type of game styles that require tons of physical calibration and you need to be extremely direct such as foam parties, rave festivals etc...


Eventually everybody will end up indirect cause it gives way higher odds that we can all agree on...

 

[Chrance]

This post was on why direct game works (because you are showing interest AFTER she has shown YOU interest (Alek's Compliance Game Premise) (and the girls you can expect to get from direct game) and why indirect game works (and the girls you can expect to get from indirect game).

I'm an Indirect (only my Non-Verbals tell the girl I'm interested, my Verbals are A1 techs) screener (go for Down To Fuck (logistics is a factor in this. See Teevster's comments below) sexually attractive girls). (see any of my field reports for evidence).

nested-parentheses-game

 

[Sub-Zero]

women complain to me all the time THAT MEN ARE NOT APPROACHING(other than black men to be fair,no racist), anyways, and they are getting the same from the female friends...

Well that’s encouraging lmao

 

[Sub-Zero]

is no low level game, what you do after the opener is what is important, is not like you guys open and the girls say "shit that is a good opener let me fuck him"








as you can see you got laid 5 times, it was not cause your opener, trust me...

I went on a trip to brazil for example and in brazil good luck doing indirect.... Certain african american (hip hop type demographic) same thing good luck doing indirect...

Anyways guys all of this direct indirect for me is extremely silly.... The dude i learn from street game back in the days was a black natural here was the game: sooo what sup? with low sexy voice...


Are you here waiting/shopping/fill in the blank for or with your boyfriend??

Oh you don't have a boyfriend??? dammm

There are night game situations were you need to be extremely direct and escalate super fast....

There are type of game styles that require tons of physical calibration and you need to be extremely direct such as foam parties, rave festivals etc...


Eventually everybody will end up indirect cause it gives way higher odds that we can all agree on...

That actually sounds like a good approach to use during day game, you get to know if she’s there by herself right off the bat.