FR++ conservative sweet girls

[girlsfollow]

I had a spate of very modern girls for the start of the year but seem to be meeting very reserved and conservative girls at the moment, I would appreciate any special input for these types of girls - here are my experiences with two of them - another one to follow:

This evening, the much less reserved of the two:
Person showing me around flat was a sort of "hired gun" (very blonde, well dressed, cute) - nice over text. Also during the viewing she was very fun and a bit flirty I took this as just standard sales banter (which she just confirmed to me was mostly the case) - but I kept the convo going quite a while, played/teased and managed to get her to elicit values to me, deep dive a little and we made a bit of a connection.

I didn't take the flat (it was really overpriced - she admitted today - said there were people stupid enough). I largely fell off the radar for a month or so. Then texted her out the blue: "hey hows the designer turned estate agent, you seemed too much of an oddball to really fit in there - you following your dream yet?" - she was responsive....

I set up a meet pronto - very little talk - gave her some crumbs of info when asked "writing, SA, buying place"

Met up for my standard date, 2 bars, 2.5 drinks each, good kino escalation throughout, getting closer was nice and gradual, then suggested we go back to my place for pool - get in taxi...maybe I should be doing more in the taxi - I think I let things cool too much - I generally just keep convo going....

(something different I tried was holding her and guiding her body from the very first move to the bar as soon as we met - although I got some physical non-compliance at first, she commented on it later and said it was sweet I cared about her getting run over)

Back at my place take shoes off - show her around, set up music, set up drink, set up shisha in front of bed, she is into it - maybe I waited too long to initiate - she was nervous and cute the whole night, started talking quickly - so I just pulled her in and kissed her - pushed her back on bed - smell her neck gentle biting - get lower - lift her top to initiate stomach to stomach - this is all clearly very fast for her. She comments on the biting - I challenge her to show me a good bite...

She bites my lip REALLY hard like proper pain - wow was worried it would bruise - rather than get angry I use this as a chance to escalate - say "you're a bad girl, wow you are getting it for that" - pull her top down and bite her nipples- she likes it but when I start to move my hand around back of trousers to stimulate - she pulls my hand away - makes very clear "I don't play around on first dates, I hadn't planned to come back with you, only met twice" - I pull back "I don't know what you're talking about" - continue smoking - we play around a little more - I say the hard bite shows what she REALLY wants - then give her a hard spank - she says she likes it - I say "I can tell you like it hard" - she smiles and says "no comment, this is very inappropriate", I make a another attempt at kissing but she is unresponsive, she smiles the whole way through - can tell she has her wall up - she keeps giving me short quick sweet kisses,I tell her to relax - she does a bit when I let her continue with me on back but she is closed- I take her to her bus. We agreed to go to a cool bar she knows and she wants to buy me the drink.......

 

[AFCnoob]

Wow, sounds like a pretty standard setup there, good work getting past "working gun" shields. Just given the progression of your interaction, I would estimate that you're fairly more advanced than I am, so I don't presume to give any pointers, but I'm curious about certain things: Your description of the interaction was interesting, but I felt like I was missing out on some details, like:

date, 2 bars, 2.5 drinks each, good kino escalation throughout, getting closer was nice and gradual, then suggested we go back to my place for pool

Kino escalation...I assume you were sexual/chase framing as well? I've fallen into the pit of platonicity even with high level kino. It seems that in the same way you can talk about sex without it being sexual, you can also touch a girl, maybe even in a sexual way without it being sexual at all (but friendly, or worse--silly) because it's not framed as sexual.

holding her and guiding her body from the very first move to the bar as soon as we met - although I got some physical non-compliance at first, she commented on it later and said it was sweet I cared about her getting run over

Again, she was "uncomfortable" with this new (possibly un-framed) physical contact, so she framed it in her own mind as "sweet and caring", rather than a prelude to physical escalation and intimacy. Again, I'm just guessing--I wasn't there.

she pulls my hand away - makes very clear "I don't play around on first dates, I hadn't planned to come back with you, only met twice"

So you got her back to your place, and you were escalating nicely, but again it seems like she still had some illusions about exactly why she was there, which may be why the "wall of resistance" went up when things started to get "real".

I dunno man, I don't know how to get past LMR myself. Good job dialing it back and then continuing with what you were doing, also--you didn't debate her on her objections, great, but I wonder if you might have given up too easily:

but she is closed- I take her to her bus

You took her, she didn't ask to leave. Then again, it takes surgical precision to know where the "line" between "being persistent about escalation" and "overriding/making a girl uncomfortable" is.

It also sounds like you may have shown a bit too much "quality/long term relationship potential", or accidentally accepted these frames earlier on in the interaction (although from your description it doesn't really sound like you did).

As a side note, it's interesting to note again how different girls have different ideas in their minds about when intimacy "commences"--this one girl had no problem lying on top of me and grinding up and down, or having me put my knee right up against her crotch, but refused to let me even touch her breasts. You were biting on this one's nipples but she wouldn't let you de-pants her. Strange.

Anyway, good reading. Look forward to more in the future.

notes:

2 bars, 2.5 drinks each

You...share the third one?

set up shisha in front of bed

Don't know what this is.

 

[Chase]

Howdy GF,

Well played right up until the end. You lost there, but almost had her.

My notes:

Back at my place take shoes off - show her around, set up music, set up drink, set up shisha in front of bed, she is into it - maybe I waited too long to initiate - she was nervous and cute the whole night, started talking quickly - so I just pulled her in and kissed her - pushed her back on bed - smell her neck gentle biting - get lower - lift her top to initiate stomach to stomach - this is all clearly very fast for her. She comments on the biting - I challenge her to show me a good bite...

Solid escalation sequence here.

She bites my lip REALLY hard like proper pain - wow was worried it would bruise - rather than get angry I use this as a chance to escalate - say "you're a bad girl, wow you are getting it for that" - pull her top down and bite her nipples- she likes it but when I start to move my hand around back of trousers to stimulate - she pulls my hand away - makes very clear "I don't play around on first dates, I hadn't planned to come back with you, only met twice"

The lip-biting and the stating about what she does and doesn't do on first dates implies that she actually isn't all that conservative, but she wants you to think she is. Essentially the major hurdle here is making sure she understands you're not going to judge her, and then you should be problem-free.

On words - you'll do better with just "You are GETTING it for that!" than telling her she's a bad girl first. Unless she's in a really heightened emotional state where she's just accepting everything you tell her about herself at face value (and doesn't sound like she is here, at least not yet), she's going to take every label you throw at her and run it through her filter to see if she agrees with it or rejects it, and then counter it if she rejects it. Telling a girl she's a bad girl will excite her if she wants to be seen that way, but if she doesn't fully trust you won't judge her, it'll have the opposite effect, and put a damper on as she seeks to convince you that no, she's actually not a bad girl at all.

On actions - going for her breasts is a "trigger" that lets her know it's time to slow things down and cool them off, because she's been through the escalation process before with other men and that's been the process she follows. Most women who aren't virgins are MORE resistant to you moving down to their groins AFTER you go for their breasts. It's often better to skip breasts altogether until you've hand your hands down her pants and finger (or more) inside her. Girls will usually remove their shirts and bras for you themselves at that point.

I pull back "I don't know what you're talking about"

Instead, try questioning her assumptions, and then making it not about sex but about rules or what normal people do or something similar:

• Her: I don't play around on first dates.
  
  You: Why's that?
  
  Her: It's a rule I have.
  
  You: Oh, I see. Are you someone with a lot of rules?
  
  Her: I have a few!
  
  You: They usually keep you straight and all?
  
  Her: They do!
  
  You: You know what I think about rules?
  
  Her: What?
  
  You: They're for boring people leading unexciting lives filled with boring ordinary people. [stare, half-smile]
  
  Her: I guess I'm just a boring person then!
  
  You: Are you?
  
  Her: Well I must be!
  
  You: I'll tell you what; come here and I'm going to take a look and I'll tell you if you are or not.
  
  Her: No way! I know what you're going to do.
  
  You: You have no IDEA what I'm going to do. Come here and I'll show you...
  
  Her: No, I'm staying over here!
  
  You: Will you just come here? Come over here, lay down with me [pat right next to you]
  
  Her: Okay... but you have to play nice...
  
  You: [mock shock] You wound me. [start escalating again]

The major thing here that most men mess up is handing over control of the seduction to the girl. You always want her to feel like she has options, but at the same time you've got to continue leading it and not treat it like the two of you are going to be equals. Women don't want to mate with equals, they want to mate with powerful, dominating men who can outfox the logic they set up for lesser men and go on to lead them to satisfaction.

I say the hard bite shows what she REALLY wants - then give her a hard spank - she says she likes it

She's in control.

I say "I can tell you like it hard" - she smiles and says "no comment, this is very inappropriate",

Joking around because she's in control. She's probably deciding if she wants to give it to you or not. Where you WANT her is being so overcome with desire that it's an automatic "YES!"

I make a another attempt at kissing but she is unresponsive, she smiles the whole way through - can tell she has her wall up

Rather than a wall - it's that she knows she's "safe" and calling the shots.

she keeps giving me short quick sweet kisses,I tell her to relax - she does a bit when I let her continue with me on back but she is closed- I take her to her bus. We agreed to go to a cool bar she knows and she wants to buy me the drink.......

Sounds like she's steering you toward boyfriend-land. She LIKES you. You just lost control of the seduction toward the end and it became a courtship, is all.

You're pretty close, and sound like you've got your escalation sequence down pretty pat. Just a few things to tighten up - skipping breasts, not triggering label assessments, dealing with resistance and objections - and you're there.

Chase

 

[girlsfollow]

That was very insightful and helpful. I wish I had posted one of my big FR's now not just one that I wasn't super focused during and just happened to happen last night. I didn't see this as loosing it at all really, I had a fun night and didn't need sex - I have other options, I should have taken it more seriously, I wasn't really putting 100% into this one, so outcome independent I didn't really push as much as I could - from a technical viewpoint you're right to say that I did drop it at the end. - my attitude was wrong, I should have put effort in for the close to get her addicted to me to make next time easier.....

The lip-biting and the stating about what she does and doesn't do on first dates implies that she actually isn't all that conservative, but she wants you to think she is. Essentially the major hurdle here is making sure she understands you're not going to judge her, and then you should be problem-free.

Agreed exactly, she wasn't very conservative actually - I think I made it quite clear I wouldn't judge, but she cared about what I think about her because she started seeing me as bf material - therefore started to care about how I saw her....- not sure how to deal with this - maybe my place is a little too nice, and I spent too much (I bought all the drinks - very unusual for me - but I thought I'd get her to pay for them next time)? maybe I seem too available - but short of lying I'm about to leave for a year not sure how I can reduce that?

On words - you'll do better with just "You are GETTING it for that!" than telling her she's a bad girl first. Unless she's in a really heightened emotional state where she's just accepting everything you tell her about herself at face value (and doesn't sound like she is here, at least not yet), she's going to take every label you throw at her and run it through her filter to see if she agrees with it or rejects it, and then counter it if she rejects it. Telling a girl she's a bad girl will excite her if she wants to be seen that way, but if she doesn't fully trust you won't judge her, it'll have the opposite effect, and put a damper on as she seeks to convince you that no, she's actually not a bad girl at all.

This is solid I hadn't noticed but she even commented on the bad girl frame - she said "but you're a bad boy too" - I shouldn't have called her out on it - I thought she would take the frame and get even more bad- but she didn't you are right.

On actions - going for her breasts is a "trigger" that lets her know it's time to slow things down and cool them off, because she's been through the escalation process before with other men and that's been the process she follows. Most women who aren't virgins are MORE resistant to you moving down to their groins AFTER you go for their breasts. It's often better to skip breasts altogether until you've hand your hands down her pants and finger (or more) inside her. Girls will usually remove their shirts and bras for you themselves at that point.

Yes - so how do you escalate ?- you just kiss/bite her neck (not even mouth) and feel her non-erogenous zones - with all her clothes still on then move down her pants? I often find it can be really difficult/awkward to get to the crotch round the back if she is wearing tight jeans- feels like I'm stretching/damaging them (belt makes it even more difficult but even without) - do you use a particular position to make this easier - her ontop seems to work well - otherwise you need to push underneath her!

This is brilliant:

Instead, try questioning her assumptions, and then making it not about sex but about rules or what normal people do or something similar:

• Her: I don't play around on first dates.
  
  You: Why's that?
  
  Her: It's a rule I have.
  
  You: Oh, I see. Are you someone with a lot of rules?
  
  Her: I have a few!
  
  You: They usually keep you straight and all?
  
  Her: They do!
  
  You: You know what I think about rules?
  
  Her: What?
  
  You: They're for boring people leading unexciting lives filled with boring ordinary people. [stare, half-smile]
  
  Her: I guess I'm just a boring person then!
  
  You: Are you?
  
  Her: Well I must be!
  
  You: I'll tell you what; come here and I'm going to take a look and I'll tell you if you are or not.
  
  Her: No way! I know what you're going to do.
  
  You: You have no IDEA what I'm going to do. Come here and I'll show you...
  
  Her: No, I'm staying over here!
  
  You: Will you just come here? Come over here, lay down with me [pat right next to you]
  
  Her: Okay... but you have to play nice...
  
  You: [mock shock] You wound me. [start escalating again]

I say the hard bite shows what she REALLY wants - then give her a hard spank - she says she likes it

She's in control.

I say "I can tell you like it hard" - she smiles and says "no comment, this is very inappropriate",

- I see what you mean now she took control here - not sure how I could have stopped it though - I thought spanking her is pretty dominant and when she admits to liking being spanked its a good start no? - you say I should have her "so overcome with desire its automatic "YES"" - How could I do that other than by escalating like I did?

I make a another attempt at kissing but she is unresponsive, she smiles the whole way through - can tell she has her wall up

Rather than a wall - it's that she knows she's "safe" and calling the shots.

YES - I got the feeling - she was too happy she was treating it like a game at the end - not sure what I should have done differently to avoid this, she was a little older and tried to take dominance that way once I noticed .....

 

[Chase]

GF,

maybe I seem too available - but short of lying I'm about to leave for a year not sure how I can reduce that?

Part of it's vibe. Part of it's your availability - if you're not always around when girls call / text, or you can even tell them how you have your phone off a lot or switch it on silent often. Little hints like that that intimate you're not around all that much and they'll have a pretty uphill battle turning you into a boyfriend.

Yes - so how do you escalate ?- you just kiss/bite her neck (not even mouth) and feel her non-erogenous zones - with all her clothes still on then move down her pants? I often find it can be really difficult/awkward to get to the crotch round the back if she is wearing tight jeans- feels like I'm stretching/damaging them (belt makes it even more difficult but even without) - do you use a particular position to make this easier - her ontop seems to work well - otherwise you need to push underneath her!

I don't like woman on top for escalation, it never seems to go quite as well as when the girl's underneath me. I like escalating on a couches a lot; the feeling of she's got the back of the couch on one side and the arms above her head and below her feet and me above her and just the one side that's open makes it feel a lot more intimate to me. Girls seem to be a lot more excited by it too.

You can get your knee between her legs rubbing her groin that way while kissing her neck, or making out with her if you're going to kiss her on the mouth. That way she's getting vaginal stimulation by a part of your body, and when you go for it later she's more open. Let her get used to your touch by sweeping hands up and down her first, just glancing over her vagina quickly as you run them up and down her legs and abdomen. You can also play with her inner thighs and tease her and excite her, rubbing them, and don't move onto her vagina until she's dying for it.

I see what you mean now she took control here - not sure how I could have stopped it though - I thought spanking her is pretty dominant and when she admits to liking being spanked its a good start no?

Spanking shows ownership. It's a boyfriend move and a display of affection / endearment / closeness. Just imagine James Bond slapping a girl's ass... looks kind of funny, doesn't it?

Now imagine some husband smacking his wife's ass while he shags her. Much more realistic.

If you really like spanking, you can do it once you're already inside of her, but I wouldn't do it before. It just feels a little "off."

you say I should have her "so overcome with desire its automatic "YES"" - How could I do that other than by escalating like I did?

Tempting, teasing - see above where I mentioned about running hands up and down, rubbing the insides of her thighs, etc. There's teasing things like putting your lips just above her mouth but not kissing her, sucking on parts of her body then blowing on it, etc. Little sexy things that get her really turned on. Getting her rubbing your groin or fondling you. Pulling her hair is another one - grab a handful and just give it a good hard tug.

YES - I got the feeling - she was too happy she was treating it like a game at the end - not sure what I should have done differently to avoid this, she was a little older and tried to take dominance that way once I noticed .....

If you do the things mentioned in this reply and the last one, this shouldn't be a problem and you should be firmly in control.

A woman just wants to feel like you know her body, mind, wants, and needs better than she does herself - and at that point, she can stop looking out for herself, and just trust you to give her what she needs.

Chase

 

[girlsfollow]

Chase, great hearing your thoughts on everything, great input:

Part of it's vibe. Part of it's your availability - if you're not always around when girls call / text, or you can even tell them how you have your phone off a lot or switch it on silent often. Little hints like that that intimate you're not around all that much and they'll have a pretty uphill battle turning you into a boyfriend.

Yes of course, I do this as standard but its good to remind me to keep that balance closer to the edge than I might have been till now. For instance I just left it quite a while to text her back after I got back from my getaway.

I don't like woman on top for escalation, it never seems to go quite as well as when the girl's underneath me. I like escalating on a couches a lot; the feeling of she's got the back of the couch on one side and the arms above her head and below her feet and me above her and just the one side that's open makes it feel a lot more intimate to me. Girls seem to be a lot more excited by it too.

You can get your knee between her legs rubbing her groin that way while kissing her neck, or making out with her if you're going to kiss her on the mouth. That way she's getting vaginal stimulation by a part of your body, and when you go for it later she's more open. Let her get used to your touch by sweeping hands up and down her first, just glancing over her vagina quickly as you run them up and down her legs and abdomen. You can also play with her inner thighs and tease her and excite her, rubbing them, and don't move onto her vagina until she's dying for it.

Very similar to what I do - I always get "incidental" vagina stim with the knee in - actually I sometimes even use it later on - after I escalate everything else I put my hand in front of my knee while rubbing it so I can basically prime her through her jeans that way before i move to the back. Interesting idea with the sofa - its great cause it also gives some plausible deniability as well - I don't have a fully private sofa though (in shared space) so not ideal.

Spanking shows ownership. It's a boyfriend move and a display of affection / endearment / closeness. Just imagine James Bond slapping a girl's ass... looks kind of funny, doesn't it?

Now imagine some husband smacking his wife's ass while he shags her. Much more realistic.

If you really like spanking, you can do it once you're already inside of her, but I wouldn't do it before. It just feels a little "off."

Interesting take on things - I've generally just seen spanking as showing you are comfortable and dominant (imagine a rock musician (bad boy stereotype) with a girl he knows where they have a fun rapport, teasing each other and he gives her a spank now and then as if to say "watch it!" in a playful way - it can be seen as a playful move with a sexual dominant edge,of course not to be overused. Not only that, its showing you are not affected by her/in awe of her at all. I think you could imagine an unconfident guy never in a million years spanking angelina jolie because he's too scared even after a while of knowing her- whereas brad pitt would probably feel comfortable doing it quite soon and she'd laugh and therefore accept his frame of being the girl thats so into him that he can so what he wants. I'm not sure, but I would suggest framing it in the negative way you have as only being used when a husband is shagging is only one side of the coin.

 

[girlsfollow]

Hey An, I'd be happy to provide some more detail, glad you asked:

Kino escalation...I assume you were sexual/chase framing as well? I've fallen into the pit of platonicity even with high level kino. It seems that in the same way you can talk about sex without it being sexual, you can also touch a girl, maybe even in a sexual way without it being sexual at all (but friendly, or worse--silly) because it's not framed as sexual.

I remember when I managed to crack this on, I think David Deangelo's sexual communication stuff and of course some of Chase's work can be some help here - most importantly you need to get out on lots of dates and just dial it up. How? Well you can intentionally misinterpret things she says as sexual (doesn't have to be too seriously) or you can say things which have double meaning - as chase describes in his stuff on subtlety. So yes there is more too it than kino - the kino needs to be done in the right way aswell - make it sensual touch - when you touch her necklace - do it slowly - don't be in a rush and if your quite late in the ladder let the back of your hand linger touching her chest gently and only just - for some reason VERY gentle touch can feel more sensitive than hard touch....then you need to get the eye contact right for this - don't look at your hand etc. Also get the strong eye contact down for the rest of the interaction. If you get all this down its difficult for it to feel friendly!

It can also help to have a few standard things to talk about and a few games - just so you dont really need to worry about the talk and can focus on the above. Of course logistics should be totally sorted before you even go out - that way it leaves you to focus on whats important.

So you got her back to your place, and you were escalating nicely, but again it seems like she still had some illusions about exactly why she was there, which may be why the "wall of resistance" went up when things started to get "real".

I wasn't really on top motivational form for this one so yes I didn't really set the frames perfectly, as chase said I was too available and might have given over a little control of the frame - I didn't keep things sexual enough though to the end - there was a point in the bar at which if we'd walked straight into my bedroom and gone to sex it would have happened - although I live close by this wasn't possible and it took a while to get back good 25 mins - this is when I lost the intense sexual frame/tension and the momentum for things to just go.... so I think this might be one of my main problems at the moment - keeping that high till we're on my bed....or at least rebuilding it fast.

I dunno man, I don't know how to get past LMR myself. Good job dialing it back and then continuing with what you were doing, also--you didn't debate her on her objections, great, but I wonder if you might have given up too easily:

LMR is easy! - its the buildup to it which is the thing you need to get down, keeping that sexual tension vibe high into the bedroom, once you start that way to sex its usually pretty plain sailing as long as you know how to react to tests like "we should stop" etc - never accept the frame and try and logic it and you know how to come across passionately (congruent with sexual frame) and progress well.

You took her, she didn't ask to leave. Then again, it takes surgical precision to know where the "line" between "being persistent about escalation" and "overriding/making a girl uncomfortable" is.

Yeh, it was late, I was tired and didn't have the motivation to rebuild the tone from scratch - so I'd rather be the first one to mention bringing her home rather than have her suggest it.

As a side note, it's interesting to note again how different girls have different ideas in their minds about when intimacy "commences"--this one girl had no problem lying on top of me and grinding up and down, or having me put my knee right up against her crotch, but refused to let me even touch her breasts. You were biting on this one's nipples but she wouldn't let you de-pants her. Strange.

yes every girl has a point at which things get out of control - I think it can change by a few steps for the same girl depending on how turned on she is though. Its good to get her as turned on for that point as possible - push it then when she pushes away - stop and then resume to get more turned on and go back to it after a while...

Anyway, good reading. Look forward to more in the future.

You...share the third one?

Yep, actually I think we had a little more, I think 2/3 drinks is a good balance. - I usually get the girl to buy me the second one or third one.

set up shisha in front of bed

Don't know what this is.

its a water pipe - hookah you might know it as?

 

[AFCnoob]

Hey GF,

Thanks for clearing those points up with me. I discovered early on that I was avoiding sexual/chase framing because I was still nervous about scaring off a girl and "hiding my banana"--I don't do that no more.

...there was a point in the bar at which if we'd walked straight into my bedroom and gone to sex it would have happened...

It seems almost unfair how this can happen. My plan remains the same throughout an interaction, but a girl's emotions can flare and then cool again on a dime, it's quite frustrating sometimes.

never accept the frame and try and logic it

I still do have this crazy idea that I can "argue" my way into a girls pants. Hasn't worked yet! I'm changing tactics next time.

Just kidding about the drink there.One huge surprise about PU is how much less I spend on alcohol, and how often girls buy me drinks or get me free drinks, or just let me drink theirs. But then--I guess that's how it should be if a girl is just as into you as you are into her, hehe.

"Hookah" I know, yep, just didn't know it by the name "shisha". Thanks again for the clarification and the suggestions. Don't get me wrong--I really think you did a spectacular job with this interaction, I was picking over it much like I would one of my own (although you played it quite a bit cooler than I would have). Cheers, look forward to reading more.