Drama from long-ago mistress -- help please

[ray_zorse]

This girl I have called Sam #1 in my reports (to distinguish her from my stalker who we call Sam #2)... we have had a lot of "firsts" together, she was very good for me in the early stages of my journey when I was grinding it out, the sex was not so frequent as to unmotivate me, but it was comforting to know at least one girl thought I was the bees knees. She's unhappily married with 2 kids, and hasn't shown any inclination to change that (occasionally has a go at resurrecting things with her husband for a while before giving up again), so I would have thought she'd understand it can't be more than FWB, but of course she fell in love with me, which as usual seems to be the root cause of the issues.

When I moved house last year, things just kinda fizzled out, she has been to my apartment several times for kinky sex play during the day, but it's logistically difficult and I also reached a point where I did not want to take time off work. I've always been totally down to hang out with her if logistics were favourable, but she may have thought I was ignoring?

Anyway, long and short of it is, I have moved on, had several relationships(for want of a better word) since then, and she knows it since I have publicly turned up at school etc with my gf(again, for want of a better word)... and this seems reasonable to me since she is actually married to someone else and I'm not... but of course she is angry, jealous, frustrated... making matters worse is that I have never actually called it off with her, in fact on our last hangout a month or two back we made out a little, I can see that this was a mistake in retrospect, but my feeling was basically there's enough of me to go round, I don't mind making her happy if it doesn't put me out to do so. What I had not anticipated was I didn't have the heart to push to sex, because I'm simply not attracted anymore. So I think this left her horny, angry and frustrated. At the same time, had she said something like "let's go and play around in the car after the movie" I probably would've said sure, and at least made an effort to fuck her. But as I wasn't feeling it, I didn't push.

So I would still like to be friends with her, we had a pretty tight knit group of Sam #1, my former neighbour who is a stay at home dad, and myself... all our kids play together and we hang out regularly and drink coffee and talk about our terrible relationships and so on... but the group has basically splintered due to my move and all of our differing schedules in 2015. Wednesdays are particularly useless for playdates, yet that's the only real day I can do it, the others could potentially hang out on weekends but it's difficult for us all.

I've compromised by meeting Sam #1 semi regularly at different parks or her house on a Wednesday afternoon and then having her drive us to school, but it's always really rushed, public transport sucks hours out of our day and I also want my one-on-one time with my son. Sam #1 feels like an afterthought and I can see why, since the hangouts are brief, not private, and I typically call only 1hr beforehand. I'm also not very timely at returning her calls and texts.

Confounding all this is her fuckin propensity for drama, which REALLY pisses me off, she is prone to sending walls of text and then doing childish stuff like ignoring me or whatnot. I used to just ignore and not engage and have at times used a soft NEXT, but lately, because I feel guilty I have been trying to logically address the issues with her, though this only seems to make it worse. Typically nowadays when I get drama I'll call her up to see if I can defuse the issue, but I know I shouldn't be doing this.

What I want to tell her is that I have moved on from our relationship, but I still care about her a lot, and it's okay to be vulnerable, like if she texts me saying "I feel lonely, I need to talk -- please call me ASAP" then I will do my utmost to oblige, but if she's basically just fishing for conversation and/or using covert contracts to get her needs met without appearing vulnerable and to try to maintain some bullshit power balance that we both know will never be in her favour, then it's just not going to be a priority for me to engage in.

All of this bullshit basically stems from her massive insecurity and codependence it seems. Even while we were seeing each other, no amount of affirmation from me would ever be enough, she'd get some outside validation from me and then implode a few days later when it wasn't there. I have discussed this with her many times, and encouraged her to get help in trying to learn to value herself more and to deal with her codependency issues, she researched latter and admitted to me that she was probably codependent, but of course has done nothing to address it. I told her about the Codependents Anonymous group that I attend, no interest.

Should I try to mend fences and gently encourage her to improve... should I be tough but honest, that I'm not attracted anymore... should I just NEXT and ignore. Lately there has been another blowup, more text, more childish behaviour, more of me acknowledging what I did wrong and defending what I did right... calm and detached... so over it.

Ray

 

[Drck]

It always depends on what you want... You are no longer interested in being a lover, having sex with her, so you are losing by keeping the drama in your life... On the other hand, she's a friend, she's a person, nobody likes 'dumping' friends...

She's got some issues like you mentioned, drama, co-dependency... You can play White Knight, Savior, Therapist to help her while keeping your own life, and it is actually a good practice to help other people while not expecting much back. It is a good practice to use your knowledge to solve other people's issues, she's just a human...

So, NEXT her is an easy and fast solution, while being a Therapist/Friend or whatever is probably more difficult as it requires extra effort, with not many rewards involved... IMO keeping emotional distance while remaining a friend who gives occasional advice may not be a bad solution... Add some assertiveness to it and it will all solve itself...

 

[ray_zorse]

Solid advice, you're right that I wasn't being assertive enough, and yes I am going to stick around and support her as much as possible. I think I may need to have the overdue breakup talk with her though, and then refuse further makeout etc. This may lead to me being persona non grata from her life for a time, but I'm confident it will blow over.
Cheers mate. Ray

 

[ray_zorse]

Reporting back here -- dropped out of contact somewhat as I went on holiday and then didn't re-engage... so last week (Wed) I was hanging out in the shopping centre with my boys at about 8am, before school... we used to have a regular playdate there although this year she doesn't come that often, and I also don't see her at school so much, due to a change in her schedule. But this time she turned up with her girls, and then did this retarded thing she does, which is to order her coffee and then sit there with her earbuds in, pretending she hasn't noticed me (wtf, her kids are playing with my kids lol)... and wait for me to engage. Well normally I do, because I consider myself above that kind of game-playing, it just makes her look pathetic anyway... but that day I figured, something different... so I just let her sit for a bit and then gathered up the kids, and went (figured I was leaving anyway)... though we got to school a bit early, oops, lol. So anyway today she's at school and I figured okay, enough game playing... after talking to another mum for a bit I've gone over with a friendly smile and voice tone "hi there! ... we don't see much of you at school these days, how are you?"... turns her back, stone cold ignoring... I lock in and give a little yawn, wondering what to do next, she walks off... haha I get that she's protecting her ego but it's all so pathetic. Wouldn't be surprised if I get a wall of text later on.
Ray

 

[ray_zorse]

So, it happened again. This morning she was waiting for me in my usual hangout spot (the food court of a small shopping centre) when I arrived with my kids... which isn't normal, so I guess she wanted to hang out. But, she didn't do anything to attract my attention. So I just went into the supermarket, bought stuff for my kids lunches, made the lunches at a table in the food court and then eventually the kids wanted to go, so we went to school. Half an hour later she came to school as well. I walked past her once or twice but didn't make eye contact. I feel this whole thing is very childish. I want to break the impasse by engaging her, but at the same time I'm conscious that my tolerating this kind of behaviour and pandering to it in the past has only encouraged it. So I think basically I'm just gonna NEXT her. It's a real shame that she has to behave this way.
Ray

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

Ray,

Her problem really stems from the lack of attention from her husband. You are her surrogate husband. There really is nothing you can do to fix the situation, except marry her. You will continue to go in a circle with her because she needs a man to be her protector. Her husband is not fulfilling his role. On a part time basis you can not fulfill her needs. This will never end until you cut ties with her. You can't be the therapist or savior because you are already in the protector roll. Unless you are willing to tell her to leave her husband for you, you cannot be part of the solution.

When I was in college I worked in a factory were most of the workers were women. I was having a fling with one of them who was married. One day on of the other women came over to me and said "If she leaves her husband she will want you to be her husband. I know because that is what I did." This shocked me because she was a hot cutie that all the guys wanted to bed. No matter what a woman looks like they have a deep seated need for a protector.

Good luck.

BDSC

P.S. If I am reading this right, you are also codependent on her.

 

[ray_zorse]

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, those issues have come up in the past, exactly as you described -- I did caution her that if she were to leave her husband, do it for her own reasons b/c I wouldn't be able to commit to her, I was fine with seeing her casually... she wasn't too happy saying she doesn't want to be "just a fuck" and she "feels used"... I ignored this b/c I felt she got plenty out of the r/ship and that I'd been honest with her and not led her to expect anything. If anything I should have been the one who felt used since she was "having her cake and eating it too" i.e. expecting commitment and a proper r/ship when she wasn't free to give the same. Well, I didn't care b/c I wasn't super attracted, she's okay but basically was a stopgap whilst I got my seduction up to speed (I met her pre GC which is another big factor here). I wouldn't have thought of our r/ship as co-dependent b/c I was never sexually dependent on her, but in hindsight you are probably right, b/c where I went wrong was to fuck my best friend and allow roles to become confused -- quite a codependent move when I think about it. Still, live and learn. I don't really have regrets, I made her extremely happy, she just did not have the maturity to handle the situation in a sustainable way and that's not my fault.
Ray

 

[Chase]

Ray-

She's creating tension in an attempt to compel you to do what she wants (chase after her, apologize to her, make up to her, etc.). Works the same way as building sexual tension, or tension during the close of a sale - you create the tension, and then whoever doesn't crack, wins.

Takes a little while to get used to, but being able to shrug off tension is extremely handy in relationships. Once you know what the girl is doing this makes it easier too. Just look at it as a challenge: she's creating all this tension, and she's designed it to be zero-sum. One of you will crack, and lose. It's a competition; she's made it thus. Can YOU ignore the tension she's creating until SHE cracks?

You may not like playing this game, but in her world there are only two outcomes to it: she wins and you lose, or she loses and you win. Anything you do will be interpreted in that paradigm. Doesn't matter if the world isn't black and white to you; to her it is. Whatever actions you take, make sure you're aware of how they'll be perceived in her world, either as reinforcement for her actions (if you fold) or rebuffing bad behavior (if you hold firm).

It actually takes more work for her to keep it up than it does for you to ignore it; she has to actively seek you out, figure out how to catch your eye, and then make sure you feel like she just happens to be there yet is ignoring you as much as possible. That's a lot of mental investment on her part. All you have to do is say, "Oh, she's trying to get me to talk to her, while being disrespectful in a power play? Nah, I'll just ignore that."

She's also doing the monkey-branch thing; the monkey doesn't let go of one branch until it's got a firm hold on the next.

In a way, you losing interest and pulling away damages her sense of self-worth and power; she sounds like she's swimming in cluster B land, and likely doesn't feel good about herself / feel secure unless she has several men loyal and devoted to her. If she's borderline (the desperate attempts to avoid abandonment, and idealization/devaluation swings, make her sound it), she likely had an inflated ego while she had you ("Hahaha... I have this loyal husband, AND this man on the side who's great. Am I not the queen of the world?"), that popped and crashed hard when you pulled away ("What??? He's dating some OTHER woman? All he needs is ME!!! Now he doesn't even want to see me at ALL?? What IS this? Am I stuck with this dull husband, and no other man wants me because I'm another man's property? Is that all I am? Just some washed-up has-been?").

I wouldn't stay involved in this. You cannot "save" women like this, nor can you reason with them. Might as well be trying to shout a message to Mars; because of how this type of personality views the world, everything is ultimately interpreted as a power play, sadly. One of you wins, one of you loses. No joint victories.

Chase

 

[ray_zorse]

Thanks for taking an interest Chase. Yes, your post basically xrystallizes my own feelings on the matter, I was wondering if I was being too harsh and PUAey, and/or if there might be a more socially graceful way to handle this, but I suppose that was wishful thinking, haha. This is quite a good experience to have, because although I have been getting better I haven't been good at nipping this sort of situation in the bud, you know the kind of magical thinking "I KNOW I am breaking the rules here BUT MY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT because XXX/YYY (insert sentimental, emotional reason)".

Yeah, it's good to have a nice simple mental model of things. Very timely too b/c I have a situation with this girl. Last time she did it (creating temsion / ignoring) I cracked after a while and wrote her an email. That was because (a) I had an air ticket invested in seeing her on her birthday and (b) attainability / auto rejection was involved or might have been involved. She's been a very good girl since then and I've been paying her regular attention, but hit a slight bump cos very busy lately and b/c concerned about response times of >2hrs so introduced some delay myself, now she's creating tension (thanks for pointing this out)... I acted swiftly with a message and a phone call (when tension was only starting to build so I could just do it casually without it looking like a reaction) but nogo. Thanks to your advice I see now that I cannot crack here, there's no excuse for this (attainability or otherwise). I just have to be willing to cut the cord. It's tough.

Thanks again.

Ray

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

Chase,

I appreciate your response because I was concerned I was being to hard on Ray.

Ray,

As Chase said and NEXT. Quit worrying about her feelings. You're in the right and can't fix her.

BDSC

 

[ray_zorse]

Ehhhh well she did it again yesterday, was waiting for me in my usual spot, I just did my thing and ignored, same deal at school, chuckling to myself a little thinking of Chase's comment "it's harder for her to keep this up than for you to ignore it" and feeling quite relaxed, no real tension on my side, haha. But it appears she finally cracked, got a missed call from her yesterday afternoon/evening. No text, she might have left a voicemail, will check.

But honestly not too sure how to proceed from here, her behaviour's been unacceptable, on the one hand I don't really want drama or to make an enemy so I should just be nice to her and not refer to the drama, on the other hand she's been a dick and I don't really think I should let her off the hook that easily, tempted to just ignore for a bit longer. Calling her back seems too high effort. Might just wait till next Wednesday and see if she engages me in person. Must say dealing with drama is 10x higher effort by phone/text, if she has something to say/ask I'd rather she did it in person. Still unsure what to do if she tries to bring up/analyze the drama? Just change subject and pretend I didn't notice any drama?

Ray

 

[Drck]

Not sure what you are keep asking about Ray, you seem that you have it pretty much figured out.

She is unhappily married with children. Ok. Is it your fault, is it your responsibility? It's her life, she's got to deal with it. You may feel sorry for her and take the role of a White Knight, Savior or Therapist to give her some support, but she is codependent and will misread the support for your interest in her... She will start looking at you as you are the solution to her problems, most likely she will want to leave her husband and move in with you... Well, it is only your choice what you want, live with her or not...

You are still thinking about her, so it is obvious that it bothers you. Why don't you take a charge of the situation, have a nice rational talk with her in stead of playing phone games and avoidance? Find out what she wants, what she's looking for in you, and tell her your situation and what you want... set boundaries... Tell her you want to be just friends and you don't want any drama (if that's what you want), don't worry, she will understand. After all, that's what girls do all the time, shifting guys into a friend zone... She should know right away what "just friends" means...

Why drama? Drama is too difficult to manage... you get too much involved emotionally, once you start it is like a rolling snow ball, you don't know where to stop... I would avoid any drama, find out what she wants, give her rational explanation of what I want, offer a friendship, and remain unreactive to any emotions, cool...

 

[ray_zorse]

Yes, that's good advice. But the reason I'm confused is the conflict with Chase's advice: That she's building tension and that in her mind the person who breaks the tension "loses". So, to recap, she's always done this thing on-and-off, where she puts herself into my vicinity, but then she'll just sit there sullenly with her headphones in, as if she hasn't noticed me, and wait for me to engage. This brings me to your question/advice,

Why don't you take a charge of the situation, have a nice rational talk with her in stead of playing phone games and avoidance?

Well, that's what I've always done, and this has made me the "loser" in her game. As I pointed out a few posts ago, I would normally just break the tension myself, because I feel it is stupid to be playing games like this, someone has to be the better person and I was willing to be that person, for the sake of our friendship / relationship. So why I'm in uncharted territory, is I decided to stop being a loser and apply more GC principles, as a high value man if she engages in game playing I just ignore. I still think this is the right approach, because I feel like I'm doing my best for her and getting disrespected in return. So it is better to demand a higher standard of behaviour (by ignoring and other GC principles), and let her either meet my standards or get angry, implode and remove herself, I don't mind.

About the nice rational talk, well it comes off defensive. Example (I will roughly recap this in brief, a conversation from a month or two back):

Her: you never call me these days
Me: yes I do, I called you last week to hang out
Her: you hardly gave me any notice and then you had to rush off to school soon after
Me: sure, but I took an initiative to see you, because I wanted to spend time with you, isn't that what's important?
Her: I feel like an afterthought
Me: on the other hand, if you wanted to hang out then you could always get in touch
Her: you never respond to my text messages
Me: yes, because I don't have time for chitchat during the working day, if there's something important I will get back to you of course
Her: I feel like you don't care anymore, it's so hard to get a conversation going
Me: that's a bit unreasonable, I am available if you want to hangout, but it seems what you're upset about is that I'm not being the driving force as much as before. That's because I've got a lot going on at the moment, I have extra time with kids, pressure at work, a relationship...
Her: I feel angry when you talk about your relationship problems
Me: yes, I understand you were upset when I brought that up at the park last time, I shouldn't have done that... it's just because we've always been best friends, I thought we could talk about any life issues we were going through
Her: well I just feel really used
...etc

So today I received the following text to follow up her phone call which I hadn't returned:

Her: Was just ringing to say that (for my emotional and mental health) that I forgive you for the hurt you have caused me. Wether you meant to or not. I can't keep walking around feeling resentment toward you as it's not in my nature. I don't think you had any idea how much I cared for you and still do. Anyway that's it in a nutshell. Take care x

I think this is a bit rich, because I haven't actually done anything to hurt her. The thing she is upset about, apart from what I recapped in that conversation from a few months ago, is that I don't anymore engage her when she sits there playing with her phone. And if she doesn't engage either, then it's hard to see who is hurting whom. So I really don't want to get sucked into this bottomless pit of trying to justify myself and further feeding the drama. Fuck it.

Ray

 

[Drck]

Yea, she is looking for attention from you, she wants you to chase her.... She comes close to you and put her headsets on, so now you have to not only approach her but also disrupt her. Double work for you, more investing into her... You can't take the tension so you come closer to her and start talking to her... She wins, she got what she wanted - you invested, she is the one who has higher value...

Psycho games? No problems. Next time come closer to her, sit down and do nothing. Call somebody, then leave without talking to her. Lets see how long it takes her before she breaks the silence and texts you...

Normal game: Simply ignore, don't break the tension, don't come and don't talk to her... You win, she is investing while you are ignoring... Eventually she'll get tired by being ignored...

---------------------
Texts:

Yea, it looks like you are defensive, you are little bit appologetic, too much justifying and explaining yourself...

She: you never call me these days
You: yea, I'm sort of busy these days, lots of work, but we can def continue our friendship
>> Take your time with responses. She writes 2x times, you reply 1x. She sends 3x messages, you reply 1x. Take more and more time to reply, cool it off... keep repeating "friends"...

She: you hardly gave me any notice and then you rushed to the school
You: sorry babe, extremely busy, lots of important stuff to finish (implying she is less important to you)

She: I feel like afterthought
You: you know you are not
She: you never respond to my messages
You: really busy, but if there is something important I would def get back to you (again, implying that her texts are not important)

Her: I feel like you don't care anymore
You: Sorry about how you are feeling

Anyway, just shooting off the top of my head, but basically keep short and colder responses, don't explain yourself, don't justify yourself, take lots of time to reply...
---------------

She: "Was just ringinig to say that I forgive you for the hurt you have caused me"

Oh, fuck no. Now she is blaming you, now she is telling you that you are hurting her, now she wants you to feel sorry for her. Poor little princess, she is so innocent, she is so loving - and you are the bad one causing all the distress in the relationship... She is probably depressed too, and now she has to take lots of pills - all because of YOU! She will tell everybody what kind of bad person you are... Eh, don't get me going, fucking drama...

I wouldn't probably respond at all, or just something brief and cold(er)

----------
There was this girl, I swear she was sending me 2-3 emails every single week, week after week, month after month, for like one year. At first it was fun, just normal messages. Then when she offered that she can come wisit me (read move in to my place, so I can take care of her, princess), I figured that she's heavily codependent, and that it is time to cool it off... so I was responding less and less, with the usual "sorry, I'm really busy, lots of work, have a good weekend", while hoping that she will "get it".

She didn't, she kept writing and writing. When are you going to see me? Yea, I'll see if I can see you next week. Next week comes so I write: sorry, didn't get a chance. So she basically didn't "get it" the normal way, and eventually she got all hysterical: I am wasting time on you, you don't want to see me, if I were important to you you would come and see me, I though there is more, tell me the truth, blah blah. Well, DUH! It took her the whole year to figure it out, then she became all dramatic about it...

I mean, what was I suppossed to do? She created some romantic relationship in her head, and I am suppose to be responsible for that? What was I suppossed to do, tell her directly that I don't want her, so she can feel more miserable about herself? Next her, never reply to her again? I guess, who knows, just trying to be nice... Some girls are weird, they create lots of fucking drama for no reason...