Education Status Debate/Discussion

[Richard]

After registering for college to my pre-reqs out of the way, and get my Bachelor's out of the way before moving on to a better university for an advanced degree. Most of you who have read anything I've written known I'm going in for psychology, and due to AP credit I'll have my Bachelor after 2 semesters
Anyway, I've read quite a few articles on education. Chase suggests that pushing through social ladders only offers momentary notice and prestige. Chase's exact words were:

That's right, you can improve your intrinsic value to women, primarily by improving your fundamentals. I say don't climb the social ladder because it's incredibly inefficient, not to mention petty - all ladder climbing does for you is maybe get you a temporary marginal status boost within a certain circle.

Improve your fundamentals dramatically though, and you get an automatic status boost wherever you go.

For instance, take one guy who's not very cool and kind of a douche but he's constantly trying to throw people under the bus to ladder climb up over them socially. Now take another man who's worked hard on his fundamentals to become attractive, powerful, sexual, cool, and suave, and doesn't need to go around using other people as rungs, and introduce him to the former guy's social circle. After a month in that circle together, who do you think is regarded by everyone in the circle as higher status - Mr. Uncool Ladder Climber, or the powerful guy everybody likes? Focus on ladder climbing and you've focused your attentions on the wrong arena.

Also, several psychology professors with their pHDs and Masters suggest that having a bachelors degree in psych offers a lot of flexibility, and actually offers a lot of reasonable job offers. Now, I'm pressing through for my masters/ pHD eventually. I just wanted to know what you guys think on education, and how important it really is for your status.

 

[mkivtt]

I will be blunt.

I think you are wasting your time in college with anything except an engineering/math/science/medical degree.

Psychology and most degrees in fields other than the ones above teach you very few useful skills thet are useful to employers, or the job market for those degrees is a fraction of the amountofgraduates coming out of colleges.

Over the past few decades, thanks to democrats, the notion that "everyone should go to college" has become so pervasive that it's more or less accepted as a truth. While the truth is, most kids would be better off in a trade school learning real skills than some useless, esoteric drivel that no employer cares about. Those same democrats, and their union buddies, while denouncing the "evils" or capitalism and the private market, have raised tuition fees by hundreds of percents over the same time.

So what we ended up with are degrees which had little real-world value to begin with, further dumbed down because "everyone should go to college," at a cost that will put most students in debt for decades.

A masters or PHD is even more useless. A masters was originally nothing but a prep for PhD, but now it's become "common" to get a masters as well. Even in engineering or science a master's has little extra value to employers. At PHD level, you waste 4 more years and end up with a highly specific degree that is intended for research at universities... not the real world. So I think you're wasting your time and money. But that's just me. I may not know women that well, but after 15 years in the private sector I sure know what employers want.

 

[Richard]

I see your point, and I must disagree with you.

What do jobs consist of in any case? People.

Psychology in essence is understanding people.

See what I'm getting at?

Psychology teaches you how to motivate people, how to interact with people, which thus allows for maximum efficiency in the work area, meaning businesses look out for good psychologists

However, I agree that college tuition increases every year, and most people buy in to the argument that going to college will help you in the future, when, in reality it won't. But, depending on what job you get in to, it will benefit your future.

Trade schools are fine and dandy, but are not all they're cracked up to be either. Friends of mine have graduated in fields ranging from mechanics to electricians and have a hard time finding jobs, while, people who pursue a psychology degree up to or beyond their bachelors generally do very well in their field.

 

[Desert Eagle]

It means as much as people make it out to be.

I'm studying natural sciences - mostly, a respected degree. My plan is to go into a hydrology specialist program in order to further understand and maximize efficiency in relation to water sources. If a PhD finds out that I received a Master's in Hydrology, it won't mean that much to them. If someone who never even touched school found out about the Master's, and they think schooling is hard and respected, then they are going to respect me for my work.

It even pops up in relation to your Psychology degree; mkvitt says you are wasting your time with it, and I'd have to agree. Therefore, my respect in relation to someone who thinks psychology is the backbone of society isn't very high. I thought about doing Psychology or Philosophy, but those can easily be learned on your own. Hell, look at Chase; he's got a better understanding of people than most Psychologists have. Pretty sure he didn't get that from a degree.

Then, you look at employers, where the holy grail of respect and value comes from holding a degree. Nevermind if you self-taught and know more than every other man in a laboratory; without that degree, employers won't respect your job application. A bachelor's is steadily falling as more and more push to be in college education, and a new standard is being created. Federal aid is provided to people so they can get an Associates Degree? Guess what; everyone with the money is going to get a Bachelor's. Aid provided for Bachelor's? Master's is the new Bachelor's. The solution isn't to throw money at the problem. It's to understand that money needs to be taken out of the equation in order to make the cost of degrees not about the money, and rather about the curriculum and learning. I don't see employers forsaking things such as necessary degrees and work experience anytime soon, however. So right now, a degree is where I am headed.

Friends of mine have graduated in fields ranging from mechanics to electricians and have a hard time finding jobs, while, people who pursue a psychology degree up to or beyond their bachelors generally do very well in their field.

Just a little note; as a psychologist, this is a very invalid argument .

 

[Richard]

Not true, people who get their bachelor's in psychology actually have a pretty decent number of jobs available in personal relations and things like that. Not the most ideal job, certainly not something I'd spend my time committing to.

But, on to your point, I have an inner locus of control, and sadly enough, most people don't. I as a person don't automatically respect or give credibility to someone who has a degree, or who graduated from a prestigious school, I value someone who can support their argument.

Also, I agree with you, that money should be taken out of the equation, because, like my point above, money doesn't constitute knowledge nor intelligence. Graduating with a degree doesn't mean you know what you're talking about, and on that same token, not having a degree doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about.

I guess at the end of the day, I'm pursuing psychology for the learning and knowledge, and I'm specializing in therapy, which most people don't choose to go in to.

 

[Knight]

It means as much as people make it out to be.

I'm studying natural sciences - mostly, a respected degree. My plan is to go into a hydrology specialist program in order to further understand and maximize efficiency in relation to water sources.

What made you get involved in that area? That sounds pretty interesting.

 

[mkivtt]

I guess at the end of the day, I'm pursuing psychology for the learning and knowledge, and I'm specializing in therapy, which most people don't choose to go in to.

This is part of the problem in the US and Europe. The politically correct notion that "you should do as you like." Everything that is hard or perceived as "unfair" is removed from school. Dodge ball is mean. Playing catch is dangerous. Everyone gets a trophy. Kids need to lean to feel good about themselves, that's all that matters! What we end up with are fragile little adults who think they are entitled to everything without ever having had to deal with the real world. They've been completely sheltered by this socialist world they grew up in.

The extension of that is that they go to college and pursue degrees they "like." The job prospects don't matter to them, or the socialist universities hide it from them and cheer them on with the usual "feel good about yourself! Do what you want!" So they all end up going to a liberal arts school... journalism... psychology... any number of other "interesting" but ultimately low value or useless degrees. And then they wonder why they can't find a job, and end up waiting tables for $7 an hour and moving back in with their parents until their 30s.

Science, engineering, math and technology are not easy fields. Very few people go into them because they "like" them. But they realize those are real fields, where a bachelor's degree holds value than a PhD in any of the other useless fields. And they are right.

Almost everyone I work with is Indian and Asian. Many of them are women. How many American women do you know that go into STEM? Very, very few no doubt. Do you think the Chinese and Indians like those fields? Heck no... most of my friends and colleagues didn't do it because it was what they wanted. But they did it because their parents understood the value, and pushed their kids to have real discipline and to be strong, unlike the PC pussification parents in the west push on their kids. In the end, the US and Europe are doomed because of the incredible laziness, entitlement and complacency that is everywhere now. Political correctness and socialism are really a cancer.

TL;DR: get an technical degree, earn $$$.

 

[Richard]

Again, I have to agree with you. I'm rather ashamed with what society both is and is turning into in the West, more specifically in the United States. I hate the "trap," that the media and parents push onto their kids, where, you are taught to pursue what you love, pursue what you enjoy. I've seen many friends falter under this idea, many friends have lost the lives they should have because of this.

Math, science, technical things, I'm great and excel at all of them, but I take no pleasure in them anymore. Sure, you can make the money in a hard field, but in return, you don't have a life of happiness. Money doesn't dictate happiness, material wealth doesn't dictate happiness. It is rather sad that a person is valued for their socioeconomic standing, and because of this, people are now blind to what truly matters in life. People kill themselves working jobs they hate for money that doesn't buy them what they really need.

Again, I agree with you mk, about the future of children who grow up sheltered. I'm thankful that I didn't have that as a child, when I messed up, I got the worst of it, I learned very young to learn from my mistakes, and I had to learn alone. My parents weren't there to help me out, I raised myself just about. However, my sister who messed up was sheltered, was protected by my parents, and is now exactly what you said, a fragile little adult.

As a closing thought though, you won't convince me that psychology is a useless degree because it focuses on people. When you understand people, the world is your oyster. The most successful people through history have been the one's who knew how to interact with people, not the one's who tirelessly pursued a trade. Rockefeller, Morgan, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, hell even Hitler, they knew how to motivate people, they knew how to get through to people, and because of that, they are remembered in history. Psychology teaches people the skills that Rockefeller and the rest of his peers acquired on their own.

It is my understanding that one of the best ways to make money is not to work yourself, but to get people to work for you. History has taught me that.

 

[steff]

Interesting thoughts...

I guess at the end of the day, I'm pursuing psychology for the learning and knowledge, and I'm specializing in therapy, which most people don't choose to go in to.

This is part of the problem in the US and Europe. The politically correct notion that "you should do as you like." Everything that is hard or perceived as "unfair" is removed from school. Dodge ball is mean. Playing catch is dangerous. Everyone gets a trophy. Kids need to lean to feel good about themselves, that's all that matters! What we end up with are fragile little adults who think they are entitled to everything without ever having had to deal with the real world. They've been completely sheltered by this socialist world they grew up in.

I can totally agree with that. For instance, I live in Eastern-Europe, where communism still has a huge mark on our society. My father told me that back in those days, when you went to another town to meet someone, the police stopped you and started asking questions from you. He was actually beaten up once by the policemen, for not having his ID in his pocket. Or one of his colleagues who started cursing once for standing 3 hours in the line just to get bread and butter. He was taken to prison for 3 years "for showing off his penis in public to young girls". And these things did happen.

Today we have the option to CHOOSE what we want to study (if we want), where do we want to live, etc. And yet we still complain that life is hard.
It is what it is. You have the option to be in control of your life. I was also taught to go to college, learn as much as possible, and get a "fair" job at an office. I went to two different universities in 3 years. The first one (Modern and applied languages) was not my decision. Everyone told me that I should do that, so i did. I left it after 6 months. The second one (International Relations and European Studies) was something I liked a bit more, but after a year I realized, that the best job I could get with that is to work in somekind of government institution for a "fair" amount of money.

So I started not taking it seriously, and after the bad results I got on my exams, I was forced to leave that too. That was the point when I felt more miserable then ever. After a few months I started working as a bartender, just to stand up to my parents. I left that after 2 months and started a Google AdSense project together with a friend of mine (this was in 2011). In the first 3 months we made a total of $21 from working 14-16 hours/day, but I did save some money from the bar which was just enough for these tougher days. But as we progressed, we learnt some other little tricks, like search engine optimizing and other online marketing strategies to improve our websites. Today we run our own online marketing company, and we run our own online shops as well. Life is NOT easier this way. We still work 10-14 hours/day because you always find something bigger to pursue, and you have to keep things running. But I have the freedom of not listening to anyone who is telling me I am miserable for not learning something I am not interested in. I have the freedom of not giving a fuck about bills, taxes, and fines. I have the freedom of controlling my own life, driving my own car, and soon living in my own apartment. In the first years my parents did complain that I should finish my studies, today they don't even question it. They see that I am happy with what I am doing and that is all that matters.

So if you ask me, education is important as long as you are intereseted in what you are learning. You can say that when you do research on your own to learn something and not because your professor tells you so. But what I see today is that everyone is going to college, and pursuing a higher degree, just to have the comfort of being a student. Most of my friends are the same age as me (24 years) and they are still fed by their parents. And I think that is kind of sad.

As for status, I think YES, you do need it if you don't want to embarass your parents, or your girlfriend, or your wife that you are just a shop assistant (who is maybe just trying to make some money, to start something on his own someday). But if you are looking for people who truly respect you for who you are, you don't need it. All you need is to believe in yourself and do what you want to do, and don't be afraid of being defeated several times. Stick more to the people who support you, support others, and be sure that this is what you want to do (whether it is psycology, engineering, architecture or whatever), that's all.