FR/OR: escalation sticking point

[Odysseus]

This is my first field report, on a series of dates I've had with a girl (named E), who I met at the end of term party for a music group I'm in.

Not the most conspicuous start: the group is full of women, mostly significantly older than I am, so I wasn't expecting anything at the party and didn't bring my a-game. E had been brought along by her Mum, who is a member of the same music group; at one point during the night, we were sat next to each other and talked a little about nothing much in particular. As I say though, I really wasn't in the right frame of mind so didn't act on a couple of clear indicators of interest: every so often, if I was talking to someone else I'd catch her looking across the room at me, and later on she asked me to dance (I politely declined, trying to retain my 'Mr Mysterious' aura). At the end of the night, however, sensing I may have missed the boat with something, I had a chat with the teacher of the group, mentioned my interest in this girl in passing, and lo and behold the next day she passed along E's number to me. As I say, not exactly the way it should be done, and I felt pretty damn amateurish - nevertheless, I gave it a day or two as I considered whether I cared enough to pursue it, thought 'fuck it' and texted her:

Me (Saturday 15:53):"Hey E, its O - good to meet you the other night!"
E (Sat. 16:17): "Hiya O, yeah was great fun the other night and it was good to meet you too!"
Me (Sat. 23:00): "What's your schedule like this week? Let's grab a bite to eat if you're around - hopefully you won't be dragging me to go dancing with you this time...!"

She said yes, we agreed the details etc. and met up the following Thursday. So that was fairly easy - I'd been deliberately practicing Chase's advice of minimising texting and skipping straight to the point, 'get the customer in the shop'. Also tried to shoehorn in some chase-framing at the end there - perhaps a little clumsy though?

We went out to lunch, I had her meet me near work and we travelled together to a nearby cafe; conversation was decent - I let her do a lot of the talking, and prompted her when I wanted to hear more about her motivations, aims, aspirations etc. We were getting on well but it wasn't electric - in fact it was pretty platonic. We split the bill, and on the walk back together I tried to escalate touching by leading her with my hand on the small of her back, arm round her shoulders etc. but getting nothing back from her I was getting the vibe that escalation wasn't really on the cards. And not even a kiss goodbye!

By about half an hour later I self-diagnosed the problem as one of attainability, thinking perhaps she'd gone into auto-rejection and/or had slotted me into 'nice guy/boyfriend' categories (thoughts on this?). I called her (something I almost never do) to say I'd had a good time, that I thought she was cool and different to most other girls I'd met, and we agreed to go for a drink the next night (Friday); I also wanted to get some investment from her, so I asked her to plan the date and text me the details later.

Overall I was feeling pretty good - although of course I hadn't got massive results, it was only a lunch date to allow us to get to know one another so I didn't go into it with massive expectations; nevertheless, she seemed interested. More to follow...!

 

[Odysseus]

Re: FR/OR - escalation sticking point

Date two was at a 'trendy bar' near her's - a bit of a trek for me, but given my house is out of bounds due to parents/distance, I was thinking logistically that if things went well I could try to push to get back to hers. It also showed investment from her - I'd said the day before that I prefer cocktail bars to clubs, and that was exactly what she came up with.

One of the problems I find with almost all bars/clubs though is the volume, making it difficult to hear and so sometimes I felt like I was having to shout; it did give me the opportunity to consciously practice leaning back and using facial expressions to communicate more, rather than leaning in to hear though. Conversation was a bit better this time - I deep dived on topics better, this time focussed not just on getting her to reveal information about herself, but then also to find commonality with her, which I found really enjoyable. One topic of note was what we look both for in boys/girls, and which ended with us both agreeing on a list of qualities we both find attractive in the opposite sex - more connection building.

One issue I wanted to raise: She suggested we buy alternate rounds (and similarly, on our previous date it was her initial idea that we split the bill) - from my point of view this was exactly what I wanted, as it levelled the financial investment and went some way to get me out of boyfriend territory. However, it also felt like a vaguely 'just friends' situation to be in - what are your thoughts on this?

Before I went to buy my round of drinks, there was a slight pause in the conversation, which felt to me like an escalation window - there still hadn't been much touch escalation though, so when I went in for the kiss it got rebuffed with the explanation that she 'doesn't really do PDA'. Unfortunately, looking back, I didn't handle this at all well: I did the right thing in then persisting as much as was reasonable, but for some insane reason decided to frame my persistence along the lines of 'I'm very competitive and you've just given me a challenge that I now want to win', to which her response was 'Well I'm not normally competitive, but now I feel I'll have to make an exception'. It's clear to me now that not only could I not 'win' like this, but that even by mentioning competition I'd made myself into a chaser. What are your opinions on how I should have responded? (although it was avoidable in the first place...)

I slinked off to buy the drinks, and when I got back tried to act a little more aloof as damage limitation, trying to avoid looking like I was chasing - again, though, I got into a bit of a head to head with her: trying to practice compliance chaining, I started by asking her to move some of the empty glasses out of the way as they were cluttering up the table, at which she half did what I said, but was resisting complying on my terms by only moving them about an inch at a time . Cue 'bored/disinterested face' when she started playing silly games to try to get my attention - again, I felt I handled what was thrown at me quite well, but it was still only damage limitation...

I was saved by 'Purple Haze' coming on in the bar, which allowed us to share a love of Hendrix and go back to finding commonalities to draw us together. With things back on a more even keel, I started to escalate with touching a bit more, nothing more than hand holding, touching her arm etc. but given her earlier response to the kiss I didn't feel much else was feasible there and then. We agreed to meet again for a trip to the park/picnicy thing, in my mind somewhere we could go that had more potential for intimacy... Talked for probably another half hour or so before calling it a night - walked with her to the tube station, went to kiss her goodnight, she resisted again, I pulled her closer and we kissed for maybe a second or two and then she broke off and headed off into the station. Finished the date with me looking like I'm chasing again... damn

Overall a mixed bag of a second date: on the one hand, aspects of the interaction were much better - I felt like we were much closer after I focussed on finding commonalities as part of my deep diving; I felt I handled some of the shit that was thrown at me pretty well, and that her attraction for me at the night (based purely off gut-instinct/a general feeling that we were closer) had increased.

At the same time, there were also some serious flaws - I should have escalated more before trying to kiss (in future, generating sexual conversation is something I need to get a real handle on) or, having recently read one of Chase's articles on it, not gone for the kiss at all without the possibility of further escalation after that, since it made the kiss into too much of a big thing; and of course, the 'competition' and 'moving the glasses' issues which I already raised above. Essentially, the problems here I think boil down to my previous existence as an AFC coming back to haunt me, but as a first step at least I'm recognising what I'm doing wrong. Anything you guys think I'm missing?

 

[Odysseus]

Re: FR/OR - escalation sticking point

This post should now bring things up to date with where I am at the moment with E:

Having last seen E on Friday night, I had a busy weekend so didn't get round to texting her until Sunday afternoon:
Me (Sunday 14:51): "Looks like the next few days will be sweet for our trip to the park - when are you working?"
E (Sun. 15:04): "Yeah man! Just Wednesday i think!"
Me (Sun. 15:12): "Ok let's go for tuesday, say 1 o'clock - cba with a full on picnic but if you bring some bits and bobs, and I'll bring the car. Plan?" [trying to get a bit of investment from her, while also reducing/playing down the investment I'm putting in by planning it out and driving her there in my car]
E (Sun 19:10): "Cool 1 it is! Yeah ok nothing to much. However a rug is a necessity! You can bring the car and a rug !?! Plan?"

As you can probably see, she's quite a bit more high energy than me - I think that's ok though, I don't really feel comfortable bouncing around with energy all the time, as long as I err on the side of 'mysterious' and to the point, rather than boring. Opinions?

Given my hopes/expectations for this date (see previous post) I took the comment about the rug to be a good sign...! Over-optimistic perhaps...

Overall not a great date - for a start, it was impossible to find anywhere of any real privacy, meaning that although I knew it was vitally important I seriously escalate on this, our third time out together, her whole problem with PDA became too much of an obstacle. Secondly, just lying around in the sunshine was seriously bad for my state, and I wasn't on the ball conversationally as I was just too relaxed. Finally, and this was a logistic I really hadn't considered - after about 45 minutes, she was complaining she needed the loo and, being in the middle of the park, there was really no opportunity to go - she insisted that she could wait, but she wasn't exactly comfortable and up for rolling around on the grass... I'll have to remember that one for next time!

Conversation was ok again, although I was back to doing the hard work in deep diving the right kinds of things, finding out her plans for the future, her likes and dislikes etc. etc. and then failing to actually make much of a connection off the back of it - thereby wasting the work I was putting in. It had also got to the stage where I couldn't maintain my air of mystery much longer - it must have been the sun, but I was answering lots of her questions directly, giving myself away quite easily, despite being acutely aware that it was still a chore to kiss this girl, let alone actually fuck her...

Some of my frustration was starting to show as well - I'd been starting to escalate physically, testing the waters by tracing circles with my fingers in the small of her back and on her leg (a favoured technique of mine, as it's both quite intimate and quite discreet), reached a pause in the conversation which felt like an opportunity to escalate further, but when I pulled her in to kiss she turned her head to the side and I got a mouthful of hair. To my eternal shame, my next words were: "come on...!" Not exactly the smooth, strong man that's phased by nothing...!

That kind of thing happened a couple of times, despite my attempts at a manhandle kiss. Eventually, I made the correct move (I think?) of facing the issue head on, saying:
"Look, E, this isn't going to work if we're just going to be completely platonic. That's just not for me."

She didn't know what platonic meant, so I had to search for a tactful way of explaining it and, finding none, settled on 'asexual' (which immediately felt a very clinical description... oh well). At this point the interaction took a more interesting turn, which I would like some thoughts on how to analyse please!:
She got a little bit awkward about discussing it, presumably because we were then starting to reach a more personal level of intimacy discussing her feelings etc., but I tried to be as non-judgemental as possible and to coach her through it... she said (paraphrasing here) she "doesn't like to confuse friends with sex" and so she's tried to go for casual-sex type arrangements in the past over relationships, to save getting emotionally involved etc. I'm thinking 'shit, I've hit boyfriend territory here', but went for a GC line I picked up from one of the articles: "who said anything about a relationship?" (with a wry smile), which seemed to get a bit of a response from her. I probed a bit deeper, found out she'd had a bf for about 5 or 6 months a year or two ago, since then she's fairly recently ended a casual thing with a guy that had been running for a few months. We talked about the whole issue a bit more, and in my mind I was trying to manage her emotions while also disqualifying myself for the time being as a BF - focussing on the fact that frankly, although I do like her as a person to hang out with etc., I basically consider sex a pre-requisite to anything else. I say 'in my mind', because I can't quite remember the exact conversation and I've got half a feeling I wasn't clear enough about that.

Nevertheless, having talked that all through, she suddenly opened up to kissing a whole lot more and was yanking on my arm to pull me closer to her (escalation window recognised, and then missed because she was then bursting for the loo...!) - it probably seems from all the above that kissings a big deal for me - with previous girls it certainly hasn't been, but with E it was a fairly big hurdle, and a fairly annoying one at that. That said, I suppose the fact that every girl has their own idiosyncrasies is what makes it interesting really...

Having talked a bit about tv etc. she revealed she's a big Game of Thrones fan - I've never watched it, so when we were discussing what to do next time we see one another, she suggested we just chill out somewhere, which I built on saying we could hang out at hers (she had a free house next Tuesday) and she could get me hooked on it. Next date arranged, we chatted some more, and then called it a day.

Overall, a frustrating afternoon - despite having the mantra 'move fast' in my mind, things had obviously moved pretty slowly, and as I invested more and more time, I'd begun to chase; nevertheless, I felt things were at least progressing, and the next date we had arranged was pretty much guaranteed sex. Only problem was, it was a week away...

I texted her the next afternoon (Wednesday), just out of courtesy to say I'd enjoyed the afternoon [trying to cement the good feelings from the afternoon's chat] and to remind her of our plans for the next week. I was away on holiday for the next couple of days so then teased her/tried to push her away a little bit (and so stop chasing) with a text to say how good it was, but after that didn't text her for the rest of my stay.

I got back on the Monday, and this is where issues started coming up:
Me (Monday 11:02): "Yo, good weekend? (think the British weather caught up with us in Portugal, so good time to leave now...) When are you free tomorrow, is lunchtime any good?"
Her (Mon. 14:00): "Hey, yeah was lovely and relaxed! Hope yours was good too! Yeah i'm free around lunchtime tomorrow, what you thinking?" (this raised some alarms in my head, given we'd theoretically already arranged it...)
Me (Mon. 14:18): "I'm probably still going to be pretty tired tomorrow, so I'm feeling just go with last week's plan and chill in front of the tv. What's your cooking like...?"
Me (Mon. 19:46): "Sound like a plan...? Let me know your thoughts!" (didn't like having to chase her, but also needed to know what was going on tomorrow)"
Her (Mon. 21:48): "Hey, I'm soooooooo sorry! Just watching Jamaica Inn!! [a tv programme]" (I noted she completely avoided answering either of my questions here, so thought best policy was to be persistent and push for the original plan, rather than backtrack and pander to her)
Me (Mon. 22:45) "No worries! How are you fixed for half 12/1ish tomorrow? Have the game of thrones dvd at the ready!"

Not long after that she called me, and confessed she was now going to have to "flake", as her Mum had fallen down the stairs at lunchtime that day, had hurt herself and was now asking her to take on more responsibilities at home; we'd rearrange it for another time. I was a tad annoyed at this, although it had obviously been coming from the noncommittal texts she had been sending. My reading of the whole situation is that she's now had time to thing logically think through/discuss with friends the implications of having me round to hers, and has realised it's a basically just a pretext to sex. Also, having not texted her in 4 or 5 days to then ask her to cook for me may have been too big a leap in compliance and investment. Over the phone I left the ball in her court - I suggested we meet up on Wednesday evening instead, her to arrange and text me later. So far - no response!

I'm at the stage now where I'm fairly happy to leave it hanging - with my logistics as bad as they currently are, I accept I'm not always going to be able to move as fast as I like. I've only really known her for 1.5 - 2 weeks - seeing her 3 times in a week presumably had her in a bit of a whirlwind which I ought to have capitalised on, but as it is, she's started thinking logically and it's become a combination of anti-slut defence and slotting me into 'boyfriend/orbiter' category.

Lots to learn from here:
- I feel like I have a problem with consistency, i.e. when things are in my favour I know, reasonably, what I'm doing. But in more challenging situations, managing the unexpected, I drop back to AFC again. Hopefully this is just a matter of experience, and having more experience under my belt.
- Probably won't be doing another date at the park again - just too relaxed.
- I can take a fair amount of confidence from the run of interactions - I feel like I recognise what I'm doing wrong, which is the first step towards doing it right.
- Escalating, and fast, seems to have been the main sticking point - firstly, physically I need to get more touching into normal conversation, so that it's not such a big leap to kissing and beyond. Secondly, I need to get into sexual talking much earlier on - apart from anything else, it helps you get to know someone much quicker than if you only address it later on. Also, the clear benefit is that it would normalise sex in the interaction, rather than making it into a big issue around which to tread lightly.

That's all (at least for now!). Very long set of posts... Nevertheless, it's been very useful to go back and analyse the interactions fairly closely. Comments more than welcome!

Arriverderci,
Odysseus

 

[Intimidator]

Re: FR/OR - escalation sticking point

Before I went to buy my round of drinks, there was a slight pause in the conversation, which felt to me like an escalation window - there still hadn't been much touch escalation though, so when I went in for the kiss it got rebuffed with the explanation that she 'doesn't really do PDA'. Unfortunately, looking back, I didn't handle this at all well: I did the right thing in then persisting as much as was reasonable, but for some insane reason decided to frame my persistence along the lines of 'I'm very competitive and you've just given me a challenge that I now want to win', to which her response was 'Well I'm not normally competitive, but now I feel I'll have to make an exception'. It's clear to me now that not only could I not 'win' like this, but that even by mentioning competition I'd made myself into a chaser. What are your opinions on how I should have responded? (although it was avoidable in the first place...)

I would have responded by laughing and saying something like this: "I feel you - I'm not a huge fan of PDA either but I guess I couldn't resist (sexy eye contact and a bit of a grin). You're right, though, there are kind of a lot of people around right now"

At that point, you have planted the seed for later when you suggest going somewhere with fewer people around / more private. In some cases, I would go for that immediately and suggest going somewhere more private in response. However, it sounds like it was too early for that in your situation.

All of this is assuming you've already gone in for the kiss at the bar and been rejected - I agree with Chase's advice and almost never kiss anywhere public. If I do, it is very brief and I use it as a tease of what's to come. I'll pull away and say "I'm not a big fan of PDA...let's go somewhere quieter".