Friend zone, but not quite

[Lithuanian]

Hey,

A lot of girls during my life friendzoned me. Several didn't but I messed up in different ways. Friend zone is nothing new to me, but often when it happens, these girls just don't spend much time with me, we just meet from time to time (several times a year, every two months at best).

But two months ago I met this girl. She was sitting in a cafe with her earplugs. I walked to her, but she didn't see me, so I knocked on the table several times and she raised her eyes. She said that I was looking for an empty seat to sit, but I said that I wanted to talk to her, because she was cute. We talked for 20 minutes and exchanged contacts.

But at the beggining of our first date I saw that she doesn't view me as sexual partner at all and was quite surprised when I asked her what guys does she like. Because she is a student from a foreign country and it was really interesting talking to her, I didn't mind about that much (I have no foreigner friends).

Now every time I write her and invite her somewhere, she always agrees (except when she has to prepare for her exam, she's very seriuos about her studies). We already met about 6 or 7 times. One thing is, she is very curiuos girl - she is curious about me, about surroundings etc. Maybe this explains. But still, eventually I saw that she has quite a lot of friends (she meets them in public places, photos in Facebook, she tells that she is hanging with her friends). So I was wondering, why she still wants to meet me? Recently I'm trying to be more and more flirty and she reacts most often with a smile and a little flirt. I always gauge if the girl is interested in me by inviting her, but this one always agrees, yet I'm still feeling in a friend zone. I don't want to start escalating, because I'm afraid of losing really good friend (it's really better than nothing), but at the same time wonder maybe she sees me at least a little bit in a romantic sexual light.

What do you, guys, think? Maybe have some tips how I could find out?

 

[Smith]

Escalate. You're shooting yourself in the foot by not being clear about what you want. Are you really afraid of losing her as a friend? or are you just afraid of rejection and the awkwardness that ensues? Be honest. If it's the former, then treat her as a friend and stop thinking about her. If it's the later, you need to be honest with your feelings and be honest with her.

 

[HellAtlantic]

While I'm not sure what you should do, I can tell you what I did.

I work with an attractive girl. She has told me on more than one occasion that I'm her type. She's also married (but is in a very iffy marriage). We talk very openly about sex and my interest in banging her (although I say it half-jokingly but she understands full well). I have sent her many dick pics. I was tired of dicking around so I invited her to hang out for afterwork drinks on cinco de mayo. She accepted. She even checked in day-of to make sure plans were still on. Mid-day she texts me another female coworker requested to come too and asked if I minded. I replied "well, three's a crowd but it's up to you. I know I felt we were interrupted when [insert another female coworker's name here] stopped by last time just when it was starting to get good between you and me." The 3rd coworker never wound up coming. I interpreted her interest to play along and disinvite the 3rd girl was a sign that she too wanted to be alone with me. I've learned this from reading many of Seppuku's reports how girls will test you by asking if they can bring a friend. He plays it cool by casually declining (only when there is a major language barrier does he text back "no this is a date").

So we're out together, I'm way into her personal space. Heavy eye contact. She had closed body language which I pointed out to her. She touched me incidentally throughout and i reciprocated in kind. She wound up showing me a pic of her tits. However I never felt that buzz in the air, that "shut up and kiss me" vibe from her that girls give when they're ready to be kissed. We went outside and sat on a bench, she talked a lot about this other guy she hooked up with outside her marriage recently. Did a lot of talking about him. Again, never felt that vibe from her that she wanted to be kissed. Being alone with her outside the bar on the bench is what I felt was an appropriate situation that two adults find themselves in when they want to hookup. The lack of vibe was playing major tricks with me, making me get too far into my head where I was analyzing everything and trying to read into every little thing to see if this was something she wanted. We go inside.

At this point I decide enough was enough. I ask "so what are we doing? What is this?". She responds "we're hanging out as friends. I like hanging out with you, I don't have many guy friends like you." I withdraw from her personal space and turn my body so that it isn't facing her anymore, replying with "if there's even a little bit of attraction between a guy and a girl I don't think they can be friends. I don't really need girls to be friends with. I'm married so I don't need a girl for female companionship, if I'm gonna spend time with another girl she has to be able to offer me something I don't already get." She said I was being a dick for thinking that way. I continued "if you just want to be friends I'm cool with that, but then I have to consider if hanging out with you alone at a bar at night is the best use of my time. We can talk a walk to get coffee and talk if you want, that's something I connect with being friends. Alone at a bar with a girl to me implies the girl is into something more than just being friends. I'm not sure if I'm gonna put myself in this situation with you again if that's the case." She came back with "you know, you have balls for telling me that, no guy friend has ever told me what you just said - God knows they probably were all thinking it." While that was a compliment to me it was also a clear indication that she just wanted me as an orbiter, a pretty guy she had access to with no plans on ever doing something sexual with. I'm glad I said it. I haven't spoken to her since cinco de mayo, and deleted her number from my phone. It's for the best.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Lithuanian,

If you have been out with her 6 or 7 times and nothing more happened, you now sit confidently in her friend zone. You have to ask yourself, what is it in your body language, in your behavior, or in your verbal communication, that makes her write you in the "friends" column. It is something that you do.

Maybe you feel "too safe"? It's not aggressive enough. You need to literally "penetrate" her personal space.
Or maybe your conversation stays at the conscious, logical level? Most of the seduction happens with the unsaid, at the semiconscious, physical level.
Or maybe you speak about "friendly" topics?

Remember, with girls, you get back what you seed. If you behave like a friend, she will treat you as such.

A few comments.

She was sitting in a cafe with her earplugs. I walked to her, but she didn't see me, so I knocked on the table several times and she raised her eyes. She said that I was looking for an empty seat to sit, but I said that I wanted to talk to her, because she was cute. We talked for 20 minutes and exchanged contacts.

Very good so far.

But at the beggining of our first date I saw that she doesn't view me as sexual partner at all and was quite surprised when I asked her what guys does she like.

Now you already did something wrong. I recommend you touch her a lot from the very first minutes into the date. The logical conversation that happens between you and her, is only here to make her comfortable with you emotionally. It's her doing most of the talking, you just make her talk. And in the meantime, touch her gradually, arms, shoulders... Playful touch on her belly to check her body fat. Later on, caress her cheeks, her hair, have a hand on her legs. All this in the background, while having a casual conversation.

Now every time I write her and invite her somewhere, she always agrees (except when she has to prepare for her exam, she's very seriuos about her studies). We already met about 6 or 7 times.

She should have been in your bed at the end of the first, or second date. She knows that it's what sexual men do. You're off the "lover" column in her mind. So much for the sexual light. Likely now she still sees you as a chance to practice the language, or the culture, etc...

Recently I'm trying to be more and more flirty and she reacts most often with a smile and a little flirt.

You should have been flirty on date one. If you didn't, no wonder she views you as a friend. It's going to be very hard to reverse the trend.

I always gauge if the girl is interested in me by inviting her, but this one always agrees, yet I'm still feeling in a friend zone.

Reactions, not results. If the girl accepts to see you on a first date, it means she likes you and you don't need to gauge interest further. You assume attraction and act on first date.

Overall I think it's too late for this girl, just take the lesson for the next girl. You act too slow, and not aggressively enough.

Hey man, we're all here to learn. I hope this is helpful to you! I'll be reading your reports.

@HellAtlantic: Happy to see that you're learning something from my reports! And didn't know you were married. I've been there. Just a few comments.

So we're out together, I'm way into her personal space. Heavy eye contact. She had closed body language which I pointed out to her.

The closed body language when you have been too much into her personal space can happen. In this case I go out of her personal space and adopt a neutral-to-negative body language, and see if she comes back into me. Positive, negative, positive. Push pull.

About if she wants to bring a friend in, it's on a case by case basis, as I feel it. If I feel it's a test, then I keep a strong frame. "No, this is a date. You and me only". But if it's because she's afraid of going on a first date alone (here in Qatar it's a lot of serious weirdos out there, doing online dating) then I let her bring a friend. I ask her "is she pretty ;-)" and take the chance to propose bolder things, like first date dinner in my home. They're two girls after all. Doing this I prepare the ground for date 2 (she will have already seen my place, so easier to take her home).

Cheers guys,
Seppuku