Long-Term Girlfriend of 5 years wants marriage/babies/a house; parents fear she's pressuring me

[Borderlais]

Hello,


I love my partner very much. And yet we've just had our worst summer together.


For the sake of simplicity, let's call her Anne. We're 30 years old, we've been together for over 5 years and since it's just the two of us, everything's fine. However, there is some peripheral interference that can cause us problems. So much so that at the moment, we're on the brink of a precipice, and that saddens us.


To better understand, let's talk about Anne's parents. My parents. And Anne.

Let's start with Anne's parents. I have no problem with them. Let's just say that they are diametrically opposed to the education I was given (and the opposite of what Anne has become). Where I lived within a strict, rigid framework, they are more 'borderline', profuse, abusive, excessive and irrational. They tend to be in debt, to live beyond their means, and to call their daughter to the rescue when things go wrong, draining an enormous amount of energy from her. Here, we're in the opposite situation, where it's the child who is, in a way, the parent of his or her own parents. Anne has made a huge effort to detach herself from them, but it's still a sword hanging over her head. They're not going to interfere in her life, leaving her to deal with it and make her own mistakes, but there's no telling what might happen. For example, when we first started out, her parents had a job transfer where they didn't have a car, so they couldn't think of anything better than to get their daughter's car back, thus depriving her of her vehicle. This is just one of many examples. All that to say that, in my eyes, it's a real risk in my future plans with Anne, because I'm obliged to keep in the back of my mind that with them anything is possible, and at any moment, she has to make up for their stupidity by endangering our home, and inevitably, this will fall on me and I'll have to take responsibility.


Then there are my parents. I've always had a very close relationship with them. They're there for me whenever I need them and for Anne, I let them be too present and haven't cut the cord. This is how our crisis began: Anne and I were looking to buy a house to live in, which was obviously a huge step for me and I needed my parents' opinion (and validation). We found a property that met our criteria. After studying it, my parents advised me not to buy it and not to rush into anything, and I listened to them. I listened to them. And not Anne. Add to that the fact that they're not fans of my relationship with Anne. They're worried about me (see the previous paragraph), they don't like the way she does things (for them, she talks "a lot": "I want to get married", "I want to have children" etc.) where she clearly displays her plans, but are they our plans? (They see it as the fact that the more she talks about it, the more pressure she puts on to make it happen). From the outside looking in, they're afraid she'll crush me and that my feelings will blind me.

Finally, there's Anne. Anne who feels that I haven't put her first, that I'm choosing my parents (see the example above), that they're interfering in our relationship and that they've programmed me to have no plans. So that instead of moving forward, we're moving backwards. That I'm too selfish and that she makes all kinds of compromises for us on a daily basis, whereas I don't make any compromises at all and I decide and have the last word. She talks to me about plans like marriage and so on. I tell her that it's not necessarily in my head and that I'm not ready. She then tells me that if after more than 5 years I'm not ready, I'll never be ready (that counts for her, and according to her, once again, I don't compromise). That what I value is the comfortable nature of our relationship and not her, otherwise I'd always choose her. There's a diametrically opposed view between that of my parents who think I'm crushing myself, where Anne thinks she's being wronged.

And in all this, I'm on the fence, not knowing what to do or how to act. I love Anne. And I love my parents, and inevitably, in the back of my mind, I have to listen to what they're telling me, what they're feeling, and I tell myself that it's not trivial. It's difficult to communicate with one of the two parties without fuelling hatred towards the other. And it's also possible, even though I'm over 30, that at the moment I can't see beyond my navel and don't project myself as far as Anne, wallowing in my relationship. Is that a bad thing?


All that to say that there's love, but there's also sadness, and given the configuration we're wondering. Should we keep going because we love each other, or given all these obstacles, whatever happens, sooner or later it's going to blow up and that's just putting it off?

I'm terribly lost. I've tried to be as transparent as possible to get feedback, testimonials and opinions. After that, of course, only we can control the situation.


Thank you for your time,

 

[Chase]

@Borderlais,

Welcome to the Boards.

It's a tough situation.

You're facing the fourth unresolvable conflict I discussed in this article:

High Strategy: The 7 Unresolvable Romantic Conflicts of Interest

Since my last article on the rebellious mind dealt with the concepts of uncertainty and unknowableness – topics which are always uncomfortable for us since human beings tend to be “truth seekers” who want a final answer (hence: science, religion, philosophy, etc.) – I figured I’d delve into a...

www.girlschase.com

Anne and your parents may both be right. Anne wants commitment, and is pressuring you to get it. If she cannot get it, she is almost certainly going to exit the relationships sooner or later:

The 2 Year Drop

Ever notice how fairytales and about ninety-nine out of a hundred romance tales you see or read are about how two people first got together? Cinderella meets her prince, against all odds, and he manages to find her again after he's lost her, against all odds, and the two of them ride off...

www.girlschase.com

Your parents are aware of the potential risks Anne presents, via her liability parents + her obvious decisiveness (in relationships, the decisive partner is going to tend to override the indecisive one. Most parents would generally prefer their child be the decisive one... that way they know their child is pushing for what he or she most wants, rather than being pulled along by someone else more decisive than he or she is).

Anne has been clear about what she wants. She wants marriage; she wants a house; she wants babies.

What do YOU want?

It sounds like what you want, at least right now, is to maintain this relationship in a kind of stasis indefinitely.

The unfortunate thing for Anne is that while "relationship status: paused" might be good for you, "age status: continuing to age" is very bad for her.

Men do not have a biological clock. Men can still have babies in their 80s.

Women cannot do that. Fertility drops precipitously in a woman's 30s, and many women are totally done with babies by 40 (some sooner).

The longer you keep things as they are, the older she is going to get, and the closer she will get to having to watch her dreams slip away.

The main problem here is you have not gone through the satisficing process:

Satisficing and Seduction; or, Why You Probably Won't be a Bachelor Forever

I’m going to wade back into theory on this one, a la “Picking Up Girls and the Game of Asymmetric Returns.” Only this time, we’ll be looking at the end game of picking up, instead of the middle game. Worth noting that some of the examples in this article are as well inspired by Nassim Taleb’s...

www.girlschase.com

You haven't dated enough different girls to where you reach the point where you are going, "All right, I know what kind of girl I want, and exactly what relationship I want," and then are able to go and get it.

So you are stuck in stasis with this girl you don't want to let go of but don't want to go any deeper with, too. You've been there for 5 years (which is a really long time for a stasis relationship!).

This chick is 30 years old now. Her fertility has already begun the increasingly rapid decline it will experience over her next decade:

Her looks are already in decline. Peak "find a husband" age is probably 25-28 for a Western woman. She spent those years with you.

Hanging onto her while you linger in indecision does a lot of harm to the life she will have after you.

Personally, for HER sake, I'd toss her back in the pond ASAP so she doesn't lose too much more time.

Remember:

• It will take time for her to cry and get over you.
• It will take time for her to hit the dating scene and go through her rebound guys.
• It will take time for her to decide to start dating seriously again.
• It will take time for her to settle on a guy she really, really likes.
• Then it it going to take time for him to propose to her, marry her, etc.

Unless she does one of those super fast "break up with the guy then married to someone else 6 months later" rebounds (which do happen sometimes), she is probably looking at not having Kid #1 until 33 or 34. That is pretty darn old already. She'll be at half the fertility she was at when you first met her.

I guess the other way you could go is to just say, "You know what? Let's do marriage/house/babies. Let's get on it, Anne -- the clock's a-tickin'!"

She'll be thrilled but you'll probably always have a big "What if?" rattling around your head... because it is clear you are not certain you want it.

Basically, your options are:

1. Hold onto Anne as long as you can without giving her what she wants, before she finally has enough and bails. This is the needy/scarcity/cruel option, where you never give her what she wants, and also make it harder for her to get what she wants with someone else, because she will be older, less beautiful, and less fertile, and facing a marriage market where "all the good men are gone" -- literally; most of them will already be married to "Not Anne."
   
   
2. Give Anne what she wants. She'll be ecstatic. You'll probably be stuck with plenty of "What if"s though, because you are not ready.
   
   
3. Set Anne free. She'll be hurt, you'll be hurt, but she'll be able to find a man who can give her what she wants before she's too much older. You, meanwhile, will get to continue the satisficing process, date more women, and once you've experienced enough, then you will know what it is you want.

The choice is yours. I know it's a hard choice.

Just keep in mind: "status quo" relationship is going to be harmful to Anne. She knows INSTINCTIVELY that it is harmful, and is trying to get you off the fence. If she fails at that, she will start looking to make her exit so she can limit any further damage to her marriage/reproductive prospects.

Men don't have a biological clock.

Women do.

If you love a woman who is older than 25 or so, always keep that top of mind. For her sake.

(there's a reason Leonardo DiCaprio always breaks up with his girlfriends when they turn 25. Since dude is obviously not looking for the settled life right now, he is just being responsible. Many of his exes went on to have happy lives and babies with other great dudes! Look at Blake Lively, etc. Meanwhile, DiCaprio gets to keep dating cuties)

Cheers man,
Chase

 

[gameboy]

I'm wondering, are Anne's parents the only "negative" about her? What are your feelings about the relationship with your girl herself. Parents aside, are you happy to be with Anne?

 

[Borderlais]

@Borderlais,

Welcome to the Boards.

It's a tough situation.

You're facing the fourth unresolvable conflict I discussed in this article:

High Strategy: The 7 Unresolvable Romantic Conflicts of Interest

Since my last article on the rebellious mind dealt with the concepts of uncertainty and unknowableness – topics which are always uncomfortable for us since human beings tend to be “truth seekers” who want a final answer (hence: science, religion, philosophy, etc.) – I figured I’d delve into a...

www.girlschase.com

Anne and your parents may both be right. Anne wants commitment, and is pressuring you to get it. If she cannot get it, she is almost certainly going to exit the relationships sooner or later:

The 2 Year Drop

Ever notice how fairytales and about ninety-nine out of a hundred romance tales you see or read are about how two people first got together? Cinderella meets her prince, against all odds, and he manages to find her again after he's lost her, against all odds, and the two of them ride off...

www.girlschase.com

Your parents are aware of the potential risks Anne presents, via her liability parents + her obvious decisiveness (in relationships, the decisive partner is going to tend to override the indecisive one. Most parents would generally prefer their child be the decisive one... that way they know their child is pushing for what he or she most wants, rather than being pulled along by someone else more decisive than he or she is).

Anne has been clear about what she wants. She wants marriage; she wants a house; she wants babies.

What do YOU want?

It sounds like what you want, at least right now, is to maintain this relationship in a kind of stasis indefinitely.

The unfortunate thing for Anne is that while "relationship status: paused" might be good for you, "age status: continuing to age" is very bad for her.

Men do not have a biological clock. Men can still have babies in their 80s.

Women cannot do that. Fertility drops precipitously in a woman's 30s, and many women are totally done with babies by 40 (some sooner).

The longer you keep things as they are, the older she is going to get, and the closer she will get to having to watch her dreams slip away.

The main problem here is you have not gone through the satisficing process:

Satisficing and Seduction; or, Why You Probably Won't be a Bachelor Forever

I’m going to wade back into theory on this one, a la “Picking Up Girls and the Game of Asymmetric Returns.” Only this time, we’ll be looking at the end game of picking up, instead of the middle game. Worth noting that some of the examples in this article are as well inspired by Nassim Taleb’s...

www.girlschase.com

You haven't dated enough different girls to where you reach the point where you are going, "All right, I know what kind of girl I want, and exactly what relationship I want," and then are able to go and get it.

So you are stuck in stasis with this girl you don't want to let go of but don't want to go any deeper with, too. You've been there for 5 years (which is a really long time for a stasis relationship!).

This chick is 30 years old now. Her fertility has already begun the increasingly rapid decline it will experience over her next decade:

Her looks are already in decline. Peak "find a husband" age is probably 25-28 for a Western woman. She spent those years with you.

Hanging onto her while you linger in indecision does a lot of harm to the life she will have after you.

Personally, for HER sake, I'd toss her back in the pond ASAP so she doesn't lose too much more time.

Remember:

• It will take time for her to cry and get over you.
• It will take time for her to hit the dating scene and go through her rebound guys.
• It will take time for her to decide to start dating seriously again.
• It will take time for her to settle on a guy she really, really likes.
• Then it it going to take time for him to propose to her, marry her, etc.

Unless she does one of those super fast "break up with the guy then married to someone else 6 months later" rebounds (which do happen sometimes), she is probably looking at not having Kid #1 until 33 or 34. That is pretty darn old already. She'll be at half the fertility she was at when you first met her.

I guess the other way you could go is to just say, "You know what? Let's do marriage/house/babies. Let's get on it, Anne -- the clock's a-tickin'!"

She'll be thrilled but you'll probably always have a big "What if?" rattling around your head... because it is clear you are not certain you want it.

Basically, your options are:

1. Hold onto Anne as long as you can without giving her what she wants, before she finally has enough and bails. This is the needy/scarcity/cruel option, where you never give her what she wants, and also make it harder for her to get what she wants with someone else, because she will be older, less beautiful, and less fertile, and facing a marriage market where "all the good men are gone" -- literally; most of them will already be married to "Not Anne."
   
   
2. Give Anne what she wants. She'll be ecstatic. You'll probably be stuck with plenty of "What if"s though, because you are not ready.
   
   
3. Set Anne free. She'll be hurt, you'll be hurt, but she'll be able to find a man who can give her what she wants before she's too much older. You, meanwhile, will get to continue the satisficing process, date more women, and once you've experienced enough, then you will know what it is you want.

The choice is yours. I know it's a hard choice.

Just keep in mind: "status quo" relationship is going to be harmful to Anne. She knows INSTINCTIVELY that it is harmful, and is trying to get you off the fence. If she fails at that, she will start looking to make her exit so she can limit any further damage to her marriage/reproductive prospects.

Men don't have a biological clock.

Women do.

If you love a woman who is older than 25 or so, always keep that top of mind. For her sake.

(there's a reason Leonardo DiCaprio always breaks up with his girlfriends when they turn 25. Since dude is obviously not looking for the settled life right now, he is just being responsible. Many of his exes went on to have happy lives and babies with other great dudes! Look at Blake Lively, etc. Meanwhile, DiCaprio gets to keep dating cuties)

Cheers man,
Chase

Thank you for your comprehensive feedback. From a pragmatic point of view, is one of us right or wrong?

I was brought up in a cocoon, so they were always there if I fell. Which means that I've never really learnt how to get back up on my own and discover the experience.

Are my parents right to warn me about this, and to take a dim view of Anne?

Is Anne right because my life is with her and not with my parents and so it's normal for me to put her first and not the others?

Should I question myself? Should I challenge Anne?

I must be too Cartesian. To tell you the truth, apart from the house, where I think it's nicer to have my own place, I don't really have any plans (and yet I love Anne with all my heart). It's just that I like the rhythm we have at the moment, I don't mind it, so I'm not doing anything to change it. Where Anne tells me: ‘It's normal that you love this rhythm, you decide, I make concessions, and that's it’. It's amazing how Anne and my parents talk to each other. My parents think that Anne crushes me and decides. Anne feels wronged because she waits and follows my choices.

And it's complicated to discuss plans like marriage. For me, it's not a condition of love. But for Anne, it's important, she's been dreaming of it since she was a little girl. So there's a vicious circle: ‘What, you're not ready to get married after 5 years? Does that mean you're not sure? But what are we doing together?’ or “Well, if it makes no difference to you, it's important to me, so you can make that concession”. And then you go round in circles and it becomes impossible to make yourself listen to reason.

It's selfish of me to let myself be carried along and to continue to want this rhythm without asking myself what's next. I just don't know.

 

[Borderlais]

I'm wondering, are Anne's parents the only "negative" about her? What are your feelings about the relationship with your girl herself. Parents aside, are you happy to be with Anne?

I love the relationship we both have. I think if we were both on a desert island, without everything else, we'd both enjoy it.

After that, she points out that our relationship is comfortable (because she does everything I want) and that's why I'm happy in it without trying to make plans or anything. It's not that easy. Yes, I'm letting myself be carried along. It's probably selfish of me?

Really, it's not easy. This is the first relationship I've been in where I just enjoy spending time with her, we have this very fusional side where we love being together. As soon as we get out of our nest and see the outside world, that's when things can get more complicated (cf parents).

 

[Chase]

@Borderlais,

It is the normal dynamic for men to resist commitment and prefer to stretch things out as long as possible, and for women to pursue commitment and try to shorten the curve to marriage as much as possible. (the roles can reverse, but those are the usual dynamics)

So what is happening between you and Anne is extremely typical.

All the feelings are typical as well:

• It is typical for women to put off commitment if they think the guy is a good catch and likely to commit in the future.
  
  
• It is typical for women to reach a "breaking point" where they begin to realize the man may NOT commit or may want to stretch things out indefinitely.
  
  
• It is typical for the man to feel pressured any time the woman pushes for commitment and seek to delay things more and stretch things out.

The easiest way to think about it is "time is on men's side and works against women." The longer you stretch things out, the more favorable to the man, the less favorable to the woman.

The only thing that is not totally typical here is your parents interfering to stop the marriage with Anne. The much more typical thing for parents of a man who is 30 is to be saying, "So when are you going to get married?" "Are you ever going to make it official with Anne?" "When are you two giving us some grandchildren?"

That they aren't doing that either could mean they don't like Anne SPECIFICALLY or they don't want to see you married GENERALLY.

I don't have enough info to know which it is.

Or it (perhaps most likely) they can just sense your own indecision and they realize that the way things are going, with Anne running out of patience, sooner or later you are going to end up forced to make a hasty decision to either marry her or cut her loose, and they don't trust you are going to make a clear-headed decision when that time comes.

If I was you, I would sit down and have a LENGTHY conversation with my parents and figure out what their feeling is on Anne and what they want for you. I would bring up the fact that Anne is 30 years old now, which is very old to still be unmarried (I know there are a lot of unmarried women in their 30s... but no changing the fact that they are both old AND unmarried!), and she is getting antsy and will probably need to pull the rip-cord soon if you can't give her the life she is looking for (marriage, children). Then you need to tell your parents what it is YOU want. Right now it sounds like you'd just like to have a girlfriend, but not marriage or children.

I think your parents are going to tell you the same thing I am telling you: that you should be responsible, tell this to Anne gently, so she can make an exit NOW before she gets any older, and find a man who can give her what she wants. Then that you should continue dating other women, probably YOUNGER women, who are not looking for marriage or children right now, because you obviously are not in a position where marriage and children are something you want at this point (I would suggest women under 25 or 26. If you get a 25/26 y/o GF, by the time she is 28 or 29 and thinking about babies you will probably know clearly by then "yes, I think I am ready for that" or "no, I think that is never going to be for me").

Anyway... have you ever been honest with Anne?

Have you ever said to her, "I really like being with you but I don't have a desire for marriage or children right now and don't know when or if I ever will"? I'm guessing you haven't.

Anne is starting to wonder if she's being strung along here.

Your parents recognize she is feeling like she is being strung along here, and is pushing more aggressively for what she wants now. They know at some point the fireworks are going to start going off, and at that point what happens is anyone's guess.

When the drama starts -- when Anne says she needs a break, or you discover she's installed Tinder on her phone and is "talking to guys", then she breaks down and cries because she is 30 and she doesn't think this is really going anywhere anymore -- are you going to get honest with her and tell her, "You're right, Anne. The truth is, I don't want what you want," or are you going to crack and tell her, "Don't leave me, baby, I love you. Let's get married & I'll put a baby in your right now."

I don't think even you know how you will react when you reach that situation.

But that is where it's headed right now.

You can either sit down and have the tough conversations with your parents and Anne and get all your cards on the table, or you can just let it keep drifting along until Anne can't wait any longer and it comes to a head with her pressuring you to choose, and you make the sort of rash decision your parents fear you making.

Chase

 

[Chase]

One addendum:

It seems like for you the whole marriage/children thing is some sort of annoying outside thing intruding on the relationship.

For Anne, this is her DREAM. It is her raison d'être. It is what she wants, and WILL get. She HOPES she can have it with you. But if she cannot, then she will have to REPLACE you.

You seem to be focused on the connection you have with her, and think there is some kind of mutual satisfaction with that connection. The connection is only satisfying to Anne so long as she believes it is going to lead to a brood of mini Borderlais, Jr.s and Anne IIs running around playing with colorful blocks and learning their ABCs.

At some level I know you know this. Otherwise you'd tell her, "I don't want that with you, Anne," and she would be OUTTA THERE.

At some point, if you continue to act indecisive with her, she will be forced to conclude that you really have no intention of giving her what she wants, what she has been CLEAR she wants, and that your indecision is a ruse to continue stringing her along as long as possible.

At that point, the wonderful mutual connection you have with her is going to crumble, because she is going to start to see you as increasingly manipulative and deceitful. You will not understand why she is behaving this way, how she can be so cruel, how she can so coldly throw away your amazing connection... but it will all tie back into the fact that you have been playing dumb while ignoring her wants and needs for far too long, all to milk as much time out of her as possible without letting things progress into what she has been telling you consistently she wants.

You've gotta rip the Band-Aid off and be honest with this girl, man.

Otherwise, just like her parents have harmed her, you are going to harm her, in a different way, but probably equally traumatic.

(I mean, it is probably impossible to avoid harming her at this point... 5 years of waiting for a guy to marry you only to have him tell you "You know what, I don't know if I ever want to get married" is pretty traumatic... but it is a lot better than 6 years, 7 years, 8 years, or more)

Chase

 

[gameboy]

I agree with everything Chase wrote.

In fact, I've been in a similar situation as you just a little over 10 years ago. I was with this girl that I loved to death, she was great, but the relationship was also problematic. The thing is, even though she was attractive and super fun to be with most of the time, the sex with her honestly never was great. She was on some sort of anticontraceptive (sp?) which may have been a factor. Also, she was prone to drama outbursts once a week on average. The rest of the time with her was great though.

Back then I was in my late 30s and my girl was in her early 30s.

After 3 years together, during one particular fight, I remember very well that she threw at me the following line: "Once we have a baby together you can't be doing that any more!"

Context was that I loved to go out dancing, getting drunk and partying until 6am in the morning at the time. I did check out other girls visually, but I never physically cheated on my girl. I know she was aware that I was attracted to other girls and sometimes she would get jealousy fits.

So, when she said "Once we have a baby" I suddenly realized that that was what she wanted. In that moment, I realized our relationhip was over. Honestly I broke down crying like a little kid.

I wasn't able to tell her in the moment, so the relationship dragged on for another 6 months until I finally plucked up the courage to tell her I didn't want kids. (At least that was what I felt back then. Also, I had a very strong desire to fuck other girls, but I didn't tell her that).

We broke up, I moved out of the flat where we were living together and relocated to another city. I spent the next year in pain missing the ex, and wasn't able to get with any other girl because of that. I managed to pull one (1) girl home from social circle during that lonely year, but we only made out and while she did spend the night in my bed, she resisted any escalation to sex. (side note: I still have that girl on IG, she evolved to be a real hottie which I'm kinda proud to have pulled )

After about a year I met my would-be-next-girlfriend. With this girl, the sex was awesome. But I sensed right from the beginning that something was off. She just behaved in weird ways. My plan was to have her as FB while meeting other chicks, except that I was never able to meet other chicks, partly because I was feeling I shouldn't betray her.

Long story short I ended up with that girl in a 7 year relationship that was dysfunctional because we had fights pretty much all the time. If with the previous girl we had drama once a week, with this girl it was almost every day. In retrospect I'd call it an abusive relationship, and I wasn't the one doing the abusing.

Anyway, I'm telling you all this because while I can't make the decision for you, I thought it might help you in some way to make up your mind.

In retrospect I think I did the right thing to break up with the girl that wanted a baby, but I should've started to learn cold approaching right after we broke up. I was 39 at the time and I assume it would have been much easier than starting at 49 like I did. Unfortunately I was far too emotional back then, breakups REALLY fucked me up.

That's not to say you should break up with Anne. If you love her and think the relationship is good, I think you might want to consider giving her what she wants. It's your call.

 

[Borderlais]

One addendum:

It seems like for you the whole marriage/children thing is some sort of annoying outside thing intruding on the relationship.

For Anne, this is her DREAM. It is her raison d'être. It is what she wants, and WILL get. She HOPES she can have it with you. But if she cannot, then she will have to REPLACE you.

You seem to be focused on the connection you have with her, and think there is some kind of mutual satisfaction with that connection. The connection is only satisfying to Anne so long as she believes it is going to lead to a brood of mini Borderlais, Jr.s and Anne IIs running around playing with colorful blocks and learning their ABCs.

At some level I know you know this. Otherwise you'd tell her, "I don't want that with you, Anne," and she would be OUTTA THERE.

At some point, if you continue to act indecisive with her, she will be forced to conclude that you really have no intention of giving her what she wants, what she has been CLEAR she wants, and that your indecision is a ruse to continue stringing her along as long as possible.

At that point, the wonderful mutual connection you have with her is going to crumble, because she is going to start to see you as increasingly manipulative and deceitful. You will not understand why she is behaving this way, how she can be so cruel, how she can so coldly throw away your amazing connection... but it will all tie back into the fact that you have been playing dumb while ignoring her wants and needs for far too long, all to milk as much time out of her as possible without letting things progress into what she has been telling you consistently she wants.

You've gotta rip the Band-Aid off and be honest with this girl, man.

Otherwise, just like her parents have harmed her, you are going to harm her, in a different way, but probably equally traumatic.

(I mean, it is probably impossible to avoid harming her at this point... 5 years of waiting for a guy to marry you only to have him tell you "You know what, I don't know if I ever want to get married" is pretty traumatic... but it is a lot better than 6 years, 7 years, 8 years, or more)

Chase

Thanks for your feedback. We have a very close relationship. And when it's just the two of us, without all those peripheral things, we're on fire.

However, it's true that the relationship and the dynamic suits me perfectly, and I don't necessarily think about ‘marriage, the baby etc.’. It's not a priority for me at the moment. But for Anne, it's important, and above all it's the next logical step and a guarantee that the two of us are together for life.

In my opinion, I see it as a lot of paperwork, a lot of money to be spent for the sake of... I'd rather see us use our money for incredible experiences (travel etc.) than that. But then again, I'm probably too pragmatic and Cartesian.

My parents don't look favourably on our relationship. Why would they? Firstly, because they see Anne's parents as a sword hanging over our heads (at all times, Anne has to help them, deal with their problems, and the repercussions are that I have to help Anne). They make it clear that when you choose a woman, you're choosing a package and its entirety (family included). And they don't like the fact that they have the impression that it's Anne who decides and I who blindly follow (which is the opposite of Anne's view of our relationship, as I listen to my parents/decide). And all that put together means that there's a lot of reluctance. They see it as a risk, and my parents, being risk-averse, prefer to take that line.

And of course, we discuss it, and she says ‘If you don't marry me by such and such a date, I'll go and find another one’ and here again, my Cartesian view of things makes me say ‘It's only the act that counts, isn't it? There are feelings, but you need the fucking act to affirm anything? It's a shame’.

 

[Borderlais]

I agree with everything Chase wrote.

In fact, I've been in a similar situation as you just a little over 10 years ago. I was with this girl that I loved to death, she was great, but the relationship was also problematic. The thing is, even though she was attractive and super fun to be with most of the time, the sex with her honestly never was great. She was on some sort of anticontraceptive (sp?) which may have been a factor. Also, she was prone to drama outbursts once a week on average. The rest of the time with her was great though.

Back then I was in my late 30s and my girl was in her early 30s.

After 3 years together, during one particular fight, I remember very well that she threw at me the following line: "Once we have a baby together you can't be doing that any more!"

Context was that I loved to go out dancing, getting drunk and partying until 6am in the morning at the time. I did check out other girls visually, but I never physically cheated on my girl. I know she was aware that I was attracted to other girls and sometimes she would get jealousy fits.

So, when she said "Once we have a baby" I suddenly realized that that was what she wanted. In that moment, I realized our relationhip was over. Honestly I broke down crying like a little kid.

I wasn't able to tell her in the moment, so the relationship dragged on for another 6 months until I finally plucked up the courage to tell her I didn't want kids. (At least that was what I felt back then. Also, I had a very strong desire to fuck other girls, but I didn't tell her that).

We broke up, I moved out of the flat where we were living together and relocated to another city. I spent the next year in pain missing the ex, and wasn't able to get with any other girl because of that. I managed to pull one (1) girl home from social circle during that lonely year, but we only made out and while she did spend the night in my bed, she resisted any escalation to sex. (side note: I still have that girl on IG, she evolved to be a real hottie which I'm kinda proud to have pulled )

After about a year I met my would-be-next-girlfriend. With this girl, the sex was awesome. But I sensed right from the beginning that something was off. She just behaved in weird ways. My plan was to have her as FB while meeting other chicks, except that I was never able to meet other chicks, partly because I was feeling I shouldn't betray her.

Long story short I ended up with that girl in a 6 year relationship that was dysfunctional because we had fights pretty much all the time. If with the previous girl we had drama once a week, with this girl it was almost every day. In retrospect I'd call it an abusive relationship, and I wasn't the one doing the abusing.

Anyway, I'm telling you all this because while I can't make the decision for you, I thought it might help you in some way to make up your mind.

In retrospect I think I did the right thing to break up with the girl that wanted a baby, but I should've started to learn cold approaching right after we broke up. I was 39 at the time and I assume it would have been much easier than starting at 49 like I did. Unfortunately I was far too emotional back then, breakups REALLY fucked me up.

That's not to say you should break up with Anne. If you love her and think the relationship is good, I think you might want to consider giving her what she wants. It's your call.

Thanks for your feedback. Always appreciated. As it happens, we have a similar way of working and seeing things. Really, in my previous relationships, it used to annoy me to spend time in bed with my girlfriend doing nothing, but now we do everything we can to spend as much time together as possible. People don't understand us, but we love it. We have our cocoon of ‘little old men’ with our habits. And I'm really enjoying it, not trying to get out of it or do anything different. Which means that sometimes she gets frustrated when I get too complacent and don't try to move forward or create movement, and that I'm too set in my ways, without necessarily making concessions/compromises.

The problem here is twofold: there are her expectations, but also the family/parents aspect. Because when you choose a woman, you also take into account her family and any problems that may arise.

 

[Chase]

However, it's true that the relationship and the dynamic suits me perfectly, and I don't necessarily think about ‘marriage, the baby etc.’. It's not a priority for me at the moment. But for Anne, it's important, and above all it's the next logical step and a guarantee that the two of us are together for life.

In my opinion, I see it as a lot of paperwork, a lot of money to be spent for the sake of... I'd rather see us use our money for incredible experiences (travel etc.) than that. But then again, I'm probably too pragmatic and Cartesian.

There's a disconnect here, between what she wants and what you are able to understand she wants.

I'll put it in as logical terms as I can:

• The reason romantic love evolved biologically is to enable sexual reproduction. Functionally, love exists in service to this, and is at best a vestigial adaptation in non-reproducing organisms.
  
  
• Most human beings possess some degree of drive to reproduce themselves. This drive can be subtle or it can be strong. When it is strong, love takes on its biological purpose, and exists in service to reproduction, rather than as a standalone thing to exist simply for its own sake. Romantic love that does not lead to reproduction, for individuals motivated to reproduce, is a "dead end love" that ultimately must be cut off and abandoned, lest it lead into a genetic dead-end (i.e., failure of one's germ line).
  
  
• Anne is a human being with a strong drive to reproduce. Her love exists in service to this drive. If the drive cannot be fulfilled, the love must sadly be set aside, so that she can seek another mate who can fulfill her biological imperative.
  
  
• You appear to not have a drive to reproduce; or, if you have one, it has not emerged yet (sometimes it does not emerge in men until their late 30s, their 40s, later... or it may never emerge). However, you still have a romantic drive. So you see things like Anne pushing to marry and reproduce, and reinterpret that from your perspective, as a means to secure lasting love. It perplexes you why she needs these things to secure lasting love, and you wonder if outside influences make her feel less sure of the lastingness of your love for her, and perhaps that's why she needs these additional signs.
  
  
• The reality is, Anne is not seeking signs of lasting love from you. Anne is seeking a reproductive partner (albeit a committed one). She is beginning to realize that may not be you. If it cannot be you, she will sadly be forced to abandon her love with you, and seek another mate to love -- one who will be able to father her children. This will be sad for her, but to stay with you would be genetic death, a deep and lasting personal failure for one driven to reproduce herself.

Hope that makes sense.

Chase

 

[Skills]

All i am going to say to op is when you marry a woman you are also marrying her family.... Unfortunately, you need to break up unless the family changes which is unlikely....

 

[Borderlais]

There's a disconnect here, between what she wants and what you are able to understand she wants.

I'll put it in as logical terms as I can:

• The reason romantic love evolved biologically is to enable sexual reproduction. Functionally, love exists in service to this, and is at best a vestigial adaptation in non-reproducing organisms.
  
  
• Most human beings possess some degree of drive to reproduce themselves. This drive can be subtle or it can be strong. When it is strong, love takes on its biological purpose, and exists in service to reproduction, rather than as a standalone thing to exist simply for its own sake. Romantic love that does not lead to reproduction, for individuals motivated to reproduce, is a "dead end love" that ultimately must be cut off and abandoned, lest it lead into a genetic dead-end (i.e., failure of one's germ line).
  
  
• Anne is a human being with a strong drive to reproduce. Her love exists in service to this drive. If the drive cannot be fulfilled, the love must sadly be set aside, so that she can seek another mate who can fulfill her biological imperative.
  
  
• You appear to not have a drive to reproduce; or, if you have one, it has not emerged yet (sometimes it does not emerge in men until their late 30s, their 40s, later... or it may never emerge). However, you still have a romantic drive. So you see things like Anne pushing to marry and reproduce, and reinterpret that from your perspective, as a means to secure lasting love. It perplexes you why she needs these things to secure lasting love, and you wonder if outside influences make her feel less sure of the lastingness of your love for her, and perhaps that's why she needs these additional signs.
  
  
• The reality is, Anne is not seeking signs of lasting love from you. Anne is seeking a reproductive partner (albeit a committed one). She is beginning to realize that may not be you. If it cannot be you, she will sadly be forced to abandon her love with you, and seek another mate to love -- one who will be able to father her children. This will be sad for her, but to stay with you would be genetic death, a deep and lasting personal failure for one driven to reproduce herself.

Hope that makes sense.

Chase

It's a vision that makes sense and goes beyond love. Where, in the end, she would prefer to ensure this reproduction even if it means sacrificing the love/feelings aspect. It's sad, but it's very materialistic, isn't it? I understand the reasoning, but it's a bit too much, putting aside the central thing in a loving relationship to satisfy other needs that aren't really part of the thing.

 

[Borderlais]

All i am going to say to op is when you marry a woman you are also marrying her family.... Unfortunately, you need to break up unless the family changes which is unlikely....

That's what my parents warned me about. Is it impossible for this to be ‘masked’ or ‘toned down’ in our relationship as a couple?

 

[Skills]

That's what my parents warned me about. Is it impossible for this to be ‘masked’ or ‘toned down’ in our relationship as a couple?

No! No way around this, unless she totally cuts off the family and do you want your grandkids to never meet her family.... Brah! Rip your relationship.... Stay with her if you want but don't get her pregnant and do not marry and please don't buy a house together.... Or any finances together...

 

[Josef]

This is a tough situation and i think Chase - As always - hit the nail on the head.
My girlfriend is approaching 26. I myself am 24. But just looking at the fertility chart and knowing that she is in her prime years and i'm not having any plans to have children the next 4-5 years.... Let's just say i have to have an extra conversation with her.

Because as men we do have a responsibility to run our relationships well. We have to make sure we don't drag out a relationship unneccersarily, depriving a great girl of her best age.

Remember there is many good women out there that is a better fit for u than your current girlfriend.

 

[Chase]

@Borderlais,

It's a vision that makes sense and goes beyond love. Where, in the end, she would prefer to ensure this reproduction even if it means sacrificing the love/feelings aspect. It's sad, but it's very materialistic, isn't it? I understand the reasoning, but it's a bit too much, putting aside the central thing in a loving relationship to satisfy other needs that aren't really part of the thing.

Think of it this way:

ROMANTIC LOVE FOR ROMANTIC LOVE'S SAKE, IN AN INDIVIDUAL WITH NO REPRODUCTIVE DRIVE

• The beauty of an everlasting mutual connection, two people who exist solely for their union
  
  
• An incredible, intertwined connection where two souls bind to one another and exclude the outside world

ROMANTIC LOVE FOR REPRODUCTION'S SAKE, IN AN INDIVIDUAL WITH A STRONG REPRODUCTIVE DRIVE

• The beauty of fusing together with a beloved mate to produce children -- a joint product of oneself and one's great beloved -- the ultimate creation and expression of the deepest imaginable love
  
  
• An incredible, intertwined joint project where two souls create and nurture life together that will continue on in the outside world after death claims both parents and their mortal bodies rot away

To Anne, your rejection of reproduction with her is not just a materialistic concern.

It is the greatest possible rejection she could face from a beloved. She hears you saying, "Anne, I have spent five years with you, gotten to know you as deeply as anyone, you have invested in me deeply... but no; I have zero interest in committing the ultimate act of love and putting my seed in you."

It is the tragedy of misaligned objectives in a romantic relationship:

• Anne feels deeply spurned and rejected as it dawns on her that the man she has opened herself up to completely and invested deeply in for five years is saying, "I love you -- but not so much I'd ever put a baby in you."
  
  
• Meanwhile, you are going to feel rejected as you realize that the woman you have loved as completely as you are able to for five years and thought you had forever is eventually going to decide, "I must set this love aside and find another who can love me the way I need to be loved."

The healthiest thing would be to sit down with her and get to total understanding of your two opposed romantic natures so that the relationship can end on amicable terms without either partner getting hurt.

She needs to understand that you believed she was like you, that lasting love was the most important thing, and that marriage and children were just some superfluous signal people only use to try to buoy up lasting love, one that for you, you thought would be unnecessary if Anne only felt the love was strong enough.

Meanwhile, you need to understand that she believed you were like her, that true love was destined to lead to romantic love's ultimate expression, the joining together of two people in new life, and that her repeatedly talking about it was not her seeking reassurance of your love, but actually trying to move to the next "phase" of love, as she sees it.

If the two of you are able to have empathy for each other, it will make the split far less traumatic for you both.

It will also enable you both to better seek more compatible mates:

1. Anne will be much more exacting about ensuring any future men she enters into LTRs with DEFINITELY want children;
   
   
2. You will be much more exacting about ensuring any future women you enter into LTRs with definitely do NOT want children.

The two of you are pursuing different romantic end goals here. It needs to be addressed clearly, with mutual empathy, so you can both seek more compatible partners elsewhere before this one implodes in mutual misunderstanding, bitterness, and blaming.

Chase

 

[Borderlais]

Thank you for all your answers, they make sense and give legitimacy to your comments. Once again, I think I've been too selfish or self-centred: that's fine with me. Full stop. I can't see any further than the end of my nose. Add to that my doubts about my parents, and the concerns of my parents, and you've got quite a mess.

I'm 30, and it's true that an act like marriage I see more towards the age of 30-32, and a child more towards the age of 34-35 where, once again, I adopt a pragmatic stance: It costs money, you can only do it when your financial situation is stable or even quite good. After that, as she keeps telling me, we can be engaged for 2 years. Engagement doesn't mean marriage. I'm projecting myself with her, but let's just say that all these disruptive elements are more conducive to negative thoughts than to happy projections.

 

[Marcellus]

Thank you for all your answers, they make sense and give legitimacy to your comments. Once again, I think I've been too selfish or self-centred: that's fine with me. Full stop. I can't see any further than the end of my nose. Add to that my doubts about my parents, and the concerns of my parents, and you've got quite a mess.

I'm 30, and it's true that an act like marriage I see more towards the age of 30-32, and a child more towards the age of 34-35 where, once again, I adopt a pragmatic stance: It costs money, you can only do it when your financial situation is stable or even quite good. After that, as she keeps telling me, we can be engaged for 2 years. Engagement doesn't mean marriage. I'm projecting myself with her, but let's just say that all these disruptive elements are more conducive to negative thoughts than to happy projections.

So it's been a couple of weeks, would love an update on this whole situation