FR+ Great 1st Date BUT frame needs fixing

[Kaida]

Just had a great first date with this beautiful girl. She’s already agreed to a movie (assumedly at her suite) but when sex was brought up on the date my frame control may have not been the best.

Shes a very busy girl as well - she runs a hair business thats very famous in my area. Makes about 6 figures at 19 but shes working her ass off. We planned like 3 weeks in advance because her schedule was so packed. Probably why she was so invested

We went bowling at my local movie theater / bowling joint. She drove 50 minutes to see me (she was driving from her suite) to a place 8 minutes from me so I didnt mind paying for everything. Total was like $45 but I didn’t let her see the bill.

We snuck into the movie after we were done bowling, she was scared but I led her through it so that was a nice rule break. We also went to a VIP area.

It was pretty awkward in the beginning but she definitely warmed up by the end.

I’m getting better at deep diving and conversation. I’m asking deeper questions and getting more self-disclosure.



Sex: (The one I may have fucked up)

Conversation somehow got to religion

Me: So you’re a Christian?

Her: Yes! Are you?

Me: Yeah

Her: Are you serious

Me: Well I’m a Christian, just been questioning a lot of things recently. I’d say I’m pretty religious as both my parents are pastors.

Me: How about you?

Her: Yeah so one thing I’ve been working through with God the most is resisting my flesh.

Me: What do you mean? (Knew what she meant but wanted to draw it out)

Her: (Very long thinking pause) Well I don’t have sex for example so I try to avoid putting myself into situations where that could happen.

---

Me: Hmm. Are you a virgin?

Her: No, sorry. I have 1 body

Me: No need to say sorry lol, we’re human.

Her: *Smiles* Yeah. How about you?

Me: Nah I’m not

Her: Ahh

Me: *Thread Cut*

---

I feel like I should have reframed sex as natural or something. I also think I may have inadvertently bought into her frame by saying I’m a Christian as well (it’s true, but I still may have bought into the frame) I don’t have much experience reframing sex like that - I’ve tried to before and the girls bring up arguments I don’t have answers to - so I just thread cut this one.

---

By the end of the date she was very complaint and attracted. I carried her around like a little girl. We kissed twice. She was auto-investing and holding my stuff etc.

We were talking during the date and she agreed to watch a movie with me soon - likely at her place. I’m 90% sure I can plan another one for tomorrow (July 4th) since she’s off even though she’s normally extremely busy.

I get that I’m likely in a mix of the boyfriend / lover zone, so I want to be prepared for the objections to sex if I end up staying in and watching a movie with her

Possible Objections I’ve gotten in the past:

“I don’t have sex”

“You’re leaving for college in August”
(Implying she doesn’t want to waste sex on a man whos not always there - I’m back in the city every few weeks though)

“We just met”

“I gotta be in love with you”

Etc Etc.


Any help with getting past these objections / general advice on escalating with this girl given the frame would be greatly appreciated


IMPORTANT UPDATE:

She texted me back saying a movie is fine but hard NO coming to my place or her place because “we’re not that far yet”…I’m in the boyfriend zone lol. (still havent replied to this yet)

Is there hope or am I just gonna be slow gamed until the spark gradually dies like with AFCs lol

 

[Kaida]

(still havent replied to this yet)

I was thinking of replying with (in a VM because we’ve been sending voice messages):

“Lol you have suitemates right? If you don’t trust me we can leave the door open. We can take it one step further and we facetime ur parents and hang the phone on the wall!

Haha just kidding. But I would much rather hang with you one on one. People vibe much better without prying eyes watching. And trust, I have no expectations of sex or anything like that. We’re not gonna do anything we’re both not comfortable with”



Main benefit is that even if she disagrees its now become a negotiation. Theres a chance I can pivot the frame so it doesn’t look like she just swatted my suggestion out of the air and controlled the interaction.

Downside is it might be a bit pushy

 

[StrayDog]

Downside is it might be a bit pushy

too pushy.

"Obviously wouldn't want to do anything you're not comfortable with. Well hey. We can collab on some other fun ways to get to know each other"

then you yes ladder from there, get her to invest in the interaction, and move things towards a good date spot that is flexible.

Trouble with your first date was that it lacked flexibility and structure.

It sounded like a fun date, to be certain. Bowling and sneaking into a movie with a girl is a good time, for sure. But a lot of time and energy gets wrapped up in those activities, and it is tricky to build momentum both in the sense of intimacy (since the activity can distract from the raw power of man to women interaction), and in the logistics as well.

Plus those are very boyfriend girlfriend type activities. Sets an unhelpful frame.

Better to follow a 3 bounce structure and choose activities that are flexible, so you can strike while the iron is hot.

Also dude, you tend to just push when a girl throws up objections. you gotta listen to what she is telling you. Be flexible. Use what she gives you and move from there.

“Lol you have suitemates right? If you don’t trust me we can leave the door open. We can take it one step further and we facetime ur parents and hang the phone on the wall!

Haha just kidding. But I would much rather hang with you one on one. People vibe much better without prying eyes watching. And trust, I have no expectations of sex or anything like that. We’re not gonna do anything we’re both not comfortable with”

This has some many bad frames in it. All she expressed was that she thought that you two are not at that point of intimacy, and you come in implying that she doesn't trust you (which she never said). Then you make a mokery of her concerns by joking that you can get her parents on the phone. Then you go on explaining your self and how you wanna hang one on one (chasing). By the time you get to not having to do anything she is not comfortable with it feels disingenuous, like you are just using lines to get her to do something she already objected to. Like " no expectations of sex". who said anything about sex homie? Y'all were just gonna watch a movie, remember.

Just gotta be chill and understanding, while still nudging things forward.

 

[Kaida]

This has some many bad frames in it.

Yeah, I felt that. I ended up just saying that’s fine, we could watch the scary movie at a local theater instead.

The theater is very intimacy focused with private “screened off” double seats we can get in. They even give us a big blanket to share. May not be the best for sex with this girl (though it very much could happen) but I can definitely escalate and increase sexual tension.

I just don’t want to feel like I’m wasting my time here and my odds are low, but I guess it comes with the territory of getting boyfriend-zoned.

 

[Will_V]

Just had a great first date with this beautiful girl. She’s already agreed to a movie (assumedly at her suite) but when sex was brought up on the date my frame control may have not been the best.

Shes a very busy girl as well - she runs a hair business thats very famous in my area. Makes about 6 figures at 19 but shes working her ass off. We planned like 3 weeks in advance because her schedule was so packed. Probably why she was so invested

We went bowling at my local movie theater / bowling joint. She drove 50 minutes to see me (she was driving from her suite) to a place 8 minutes from me so I didnt mind paying for everything. Total was like $45 but I didn’t let her see the bill.

We snuck into the movie after we were done bowling, she was scared but I led her through it so that was a nice rule break. We also went to a VIP area.

It was pretty awkward in the beginning but she definitely warmed up by the end.

I’m getting better at deep diving and conversation. I’m asking deeper questions and getting more self-disclosure.



Sex: (The one I may have fucked up)

Conversation somehow got to religion

Me: So you’re a Christian?

Her: Yes! Are you?

Me: Yeah

Her: Are you serious

Me: Well I’m a Christian, just been questioning a lot of things recently. I’d say I’m pretty religious as both my parents are pastors.

Me: How about you?

Her: Yeah so one thing I’ve been working through with God the most is resisting my flesh.

Me: What do you mean? (Knew what she meant but wanted to draw it out)

Her: (Very long thinking pause) Well I don’t have sex for example so I try to avoid putting myself into situations where that could happen.

---

Me: Hmm. Are you a virgin?

Her: No, sorry. I have 1 body

Me: No need to say sorry lol, we’re human.

Her: *Smiles* Yeah. How about you?

Me: Nah I’m not

Her: Ahh

Me: *Thread Cut*

---

I feel like I should have reframed sex as natural or something. I also think I may have inadvertently bought into her frame by saying I’m a Christian as well (it’s true, but I still may have bought into the frame) I don’t have much experience reframing sex like that - I’ve tried to before and the girls bring up arguments I don’t have answers to - so I just thread cut this one.

---

By the end of the date she was very complaint and attracted. I carried her around like a little girl. We kissed twice. She was auto-investing and holding my stuff etc.

We were talking during the date and she agreed to watch a movie with me soon - likely at her place. I’m 90% sure I can plan another one for tomorrow (July 4th) since she’s off even though she’s normally extremely busy.

I get that I’m likely in a mix of the boyfriend / lover zone, so I want to be prepared for the objections to sex if I end up staying in and watching a movie with her

Possible Objections I’ve gotten in the past:

“I don’t have sex”

“You’re leaving for college in August”
(Implying she doesn’t want to waste sex on a man whos not always there - I’m back in the city every few weeks though)

“We just met”

“I gotta be in love with you”

Etc Etc.


Any help with getting past these objections / general advice on escalating with this girl given the frame would be greatly appreciated


IMPORTANT UPDATE:

She texted me back saying a movie is fine but hard NO coming to my place or her place because “we’re not that far yet”…I’m in the boyfriend zone lol. (still havent replied to this yet)

Is there hope or am I just gonna be slow gamed until the spark gradually dies like with AFCs lol

@Kaida this is exactly what sexual framing is for.

The problem is that while you might not need sexual framing for any given date, if you end up running up against an objection like this, or LMR, or some other kind of resistance to escalation that is rooted in a negative sexual frame, then it's basically too late to start, you end up being a last minute salesman who is trying to pitch sex to a cold audience with 60 seconds on the clock. Very unlikely to work.

The crucial point was where she went "how about you?" and you simply went "nah I'm not". That was your opportunity to create a positive sexual frame that was about you and not about her, which makes her a lot more open to it.

IME, when the frame has gone off in the wrong direction, the best way to deal with it is to get her out with you 1 on 1 and basically re-seduce with the right frame. Doing anything over text to try and change sexual frames is virtually destined to fail.

 

[Kaida]

The crucial point was where she went "how about you?" and you simply went "nah I'm not". That was your opportunity to create a positive sexual frame that was about you and not about her, which makes her a lot more open to it.

Yeah, I think the problem was I just didn’t have a strong frame on the subject. Hadn't really used reframing like this since back in college I was used to dealing with chicks that already had a positive sexual frame. I was in my head a bit and just panic skipped by it instead of taking the opportunity

IME, when the frame has gone off in the wrong direction, the best way to deal with it is to get her out with you 1 on 1 and basically re-seduce with the right frame. Doing anything over text to try and change sexual frames is virtually destined to fail.

We had a second date yesterday (snuck into the movies again). Very chill date. Not much talking, just us being comfortable with each other. I would've tried to reframe it there but the topic of sex didn't really come up.

She's still very compliant. I just do a come hither motion with my fingers and she'll walk across the room to come sit with me. I'm also very physical and sexual with her in person.

Do you think an extended seduction could work? I think I do want her as a girlfriend. And it's not oneitis talking either: she has a lot of good qualities.

 

[Will_V]

She's still very compliant. I just do a come hither motion with my fingers and she'll walk across the room to come sit with me. I'm also very physical and sexual with her in person.

You want to be careful with frame control here. To some extent, her compliance and sexual expression around you is based on the frame (which she created) of her being a good girl who isn't ready to have sex until she's committed/in love/married/whatever and who is trying to avoid temptation. Basically, she's free to sniff and lick because there'll be no eating.

This is a very unstable position, because while she might end up overwhelmed by temptation and take a bite, if she does, it will cause internal friction with the frame she already set for herself. That's why it's best to make sure you have control of the frame, and that she's looking to you for the lead on how things should progress.

Do you think an extended seduction could work? I think I do want her as a girlfriend. And it's not oneitis talking either: she has a lot of good qualities.

Extended seductions can work, but not if they are led by her. That's the crucial factor here.

If she's leading the frame, not only is her attraction unstable, but she might be consolidating all sorts of notions about the relationship, herself, and you, that aren't good for where you want things to go. And she might not verbalize half of them until you run into them headfirst.

This is the problem with letting women take the lead. Her enthusiasm and emotions are unstable, and she will tend to be very risk averse when faced with decision making. So while it might feel to you like things are going swimmingly, things might get difficult when you want to make a move.

What you want to do here is take back the frame by talking about sex and relationships in a way that clarifies a path she can take that you want her to take. And then it's up to her to decide whether she wants to take it.

 

[Kaida]

What you want to do here is take back the frame by talking about sex and relationships in a way that clarifies a path she can take that you want her to take. And then it's up to her to decide whether she wants to take it.

Ahh I understand.

What would you say though in my situation to take back the frame in a way she can digest?

I understand our frames may be slightly different but I think an example would help me develop my personal frame on the subject

 

[Will_V]

Ahh I understand.

What would you say though in my situation to take back the frame in a way she can digest?

I understand our frames may be slightly different but I think an example would help me develop my personal frame on the subject

Take her to the point where raises an objection - whether that's by escalating, or, if she's letting you kiss and touch, invite her home - and handle it then.

E.g.

You: "Let's go home and watch a movie"
Her: "I can't, we aren't together together"
You: "Haha are you afraid I'm going to throw you on the bed as soon as we walk in the door?"
Her: "No but I know what will happen"
You: "The only thing that's gonna happen is what you want to happen"
Her: "Yeah but .."
You: "You can be yourself with me, you don't have to hide what you want or feel like you have to do something you don't want to"
Her "..."

Just be sure to stay completely chill and focus on the frame not on getting laid right away.

 

[Will_V]

Yeah, I think the problem was I just didn’t have a strong frame on the subject. Hadn't really used reframing like this since back in college I was used to dealing with chicks that already had a positive sexual frame. I was in my head a bit and just panic skipped by it instead of taking the opportunity



We had a second date yesterday (snuck into the movies again). Very chill date. Not much talking, just us being comfortable with each other. I would've tried to reframe it there but the topic of sex didn't really come up.

She's still very compliant. I just do a come hither motion with my fingers and she'll walk across the room to come sit with me. I'm also very physical and sexual with her in person.

Do you think an extended seduction could work? I think I do want her as a girlfriend. And it's not oneitis talking either: she has a lot of good qualities.

By the way, if you want to start building a relationship with a girl, regardless of whether you want to have sex with her fast (recommended) or not, the main thing is to build up the frame that she is proving herself to you as relationship material, not vice versa.

Ideally she always feels like she is the one that wants the relationship more than you do. This is why it's harder when you're not having sex with her, because it's difficult for her to feel like she's investing more than you if you aren't getting her most valuable offering which is sex. And if you aren't looking to get sex what are you trying to get - a relationship? Now who wants it the most?

The way I start relationships is - the same way do anything with women - by setting frames. I start talking about things like:

- What I like and want in a woman (or don't)
- Where I expect to be in the near future (e.g. a few years), and implying all the ways she can assist
- Asking for help/favors without giving too much reward (ideally I don't even ask, she looks for opportunities)
- Asking about her past relationships and life choices, giving a little bit of feedback or perspective, and seeing how she takes it (is she accepting of my frame?)

What I want to do is to start adding myself as a reference point in terms of her perspectives, goals, behaviors, and projections, and I'm also looking to make sure that she is submissive and adapting to my frames in general.

The more she experiences herself thinking about my point of view and adapting to it, the more she feels like she's investing in the relationship.

This is all much easier to do when you're having sex with her, since your dick magnifies and reinforces everything in her mind. In fact I've never really started a relationship without sex or tried to slow down the onset of intimacy for some reason, I don't see why it's necessary or desirable.

I think a lot of guys are so much controlled by their reward systems that once they have sex with a girl they can't muster up the motivation to start leading the progress of the relationship. You really have to know what you want, have a clear vision of how you want things to be, and act on it.

 

[Kaida]

By the way, if you want to start building a relationship with a girl, regardless of whether you want to have sex with her fast (recommended) or not, the main thing is to build up the frame that she is proving herself to you as relationship material, not vice versa.

I think I did a decent job of that for sure. I can tell shes qualifying to me a bit more then I’m qualifying to her. I’ll expand on that more with her.

Ideally she always feels like she is the one that wants the relationship more than you do. This is why it's harder when you're not having sex with her, because it's difficult for her to feel like she's investing more than you if you aren't getting her most valuable offering which is sex. And if you aren't looking to get sex what are you trying to get - a relationship? Now who wants it the most?

I understand. I definitely want to have sex as fast as possible, but with how the frame is right now and the fact that our logistics are also terrible (we both live with our parents. Only real chance is the suite she has which is 30 minutes away downtown) it may take some time.

Speed is also of the essence since I’m leaving to college in a different city mid August, so if I don’t have sex with her before then it’s probably cooked and I’ll have learned a few things.

The way I start relationships is - the same way do anything with women - by setting frames. I start talking about things like:

- What I like and want in a woman (or don't)
- Where I expect to be in the near future (e.g. a few years), and implying all the ways she can assist
- Asking for help/favors without giving too much reward (ideally I don't even ask, she looks for opportunities)
- Asking about her past relationships and life choices, giving a little bit of feedback or perspective, and seeing how she takes it (is she accepting of my frame?)

Yeah, definitely need to set more frames. Particularly around sex and relationships to undo what she said about “I don’t have sex”.

Asking about her past relationships is probably the best most natural way to do that, she did say she has 1 body.

Asking for help/favors without giving too much reward (ideally I don't even ask, she looks for opportunities)

Don’t you need to reward her compliance so she doesn’t get discouraged?

This is all much easier to do when you're having sex with her, since your dick magnifies and reinforces everything in her mind. In fact I've never really started a relationship without sex or tried to slow down the onset of intimacy for some reason, I don't see why it's necessary or desirable.

Yeah, I definitely don’t want to delay it. I just need to find the best way to get her open to it since her views on sex are very conservative.

I know nothing is guaranteed so I’m trying my best to learn as many lessons from this. If it doesn’t end up working out then I know how to frame myself better next time.

And I have to get her open to it to the point where we’re going to her suite alone and she already knows whats up. Don’t know how I’ma do that.

 

[Mr.SocialAcceptableHarem]

Just had a great first date with this beautiful girl. She’s already agreed to a movie (assumedly at her suite) but when sex was brought up on the date my frame control may have not been the best.

Shes a very busy girl as well - she runs a hair business thats very famous in my area. Makes about 6 figures at 19 but shes working her ass off. We planned like 3 weeks in advance because her schedule was so packed. Probably why she was so invested

We went bowling at my local movie theater / bowling joint. She drove 50 minutes to see me (she was driving from her suite) to a place 8 minutes from me so I didnt mind paying for everything. Total was like $45 but I didn’t let her see the bill.

We snuck into the movie after we were done bowling, she was scared but I led her through it so that was a nice rule break. We also went to a VIP area.

It was pretty awkward in the beginning but she definitely warmed up by the end.

I’m getting better at deep diving and conversation. I’m asking deeper questions and getting more self-disclosure.



Sex: (The one I may have fucked up)

Conversation somehow got to religion

Me: So you’re a Christian?

Her: Yes! Are you?

Me: Yeah

Her: Are you serious

Me: Well I’m a Christian, just been questioning a lot of things recently. I’d say I’m pretty religious as both my parents are pastors.

Me: How about you?

Her: Yeah so one thing I’ve been working through with God the most is resisting my flesh.

Me: What do you mean? (Knew what she meant but wanted to draw it out)

Her: (Very long thinking pause) Well I don’t have sex for example so I try to avoid putting myself into situations where that could happen.

---

Me: Hmm. Are you a virgin?

Her: No, sorry. I have 1 body

Me: No need to say sorry lol, we’re human.

Her: *Smiles* Yeah. How about you?

Me: Nah I’m not

Her: Ahh

Me: *Thread Cut*

---

I feel like I should have reframed sex as natural or something. I also think I may have inadvertently bought into her frame by saying I’m a Christian as well (it’s true, but I still may have bought into the frame) I don’t have much experience reframing sex like that - I’ve tried to before and the girls bring up arguments I don’t have answers to - so I just thread cut this one.

---

By the end of the date she was very complaint and attracted. I carried her around like a little girl. We kissed twice. She was auto-investing and holding my stuff etc.

We were talking during the date and she agreed to watch a movie with me soon - likely at her place. I’m 90% sure I can plan another one for tomorrow (July 4th) since she’s off even though she’s normally extremely busy.

I get that I’m likely in a mix of the boyfriend / lover zone, so I want to be prepared for the objections to sex if I end up staying in and watching a movie with her

Possible Objections I’ve gotten in the past:

“I don’t have sex”

“You’re leaving for college in August”
(Implying she doesn’t want to waste sex on a man whos not always there - I’m back in the city every few weeks though)

“We just met”

“I gotta be in love with you”

Etc Etc.


Any help with getting past these objections / general advice on escalating with this girl given the frame would be greatly appreciated


IMPORTANT UPDATE:

She texted me back saying a movie is fine but hard NO coming to my place or her place because “we’re not that far yet”…I’m in the boyfriend zone lol. (still havent replied to this yet)

Is there hope or am I just gonna be slow gamed until the spark gradually dies like with AFCs lol

If she’s born again Christian type (resisting flesh = resisting sex)

if i were you

dont fuck her

It will put her in a moral quandary

even if she’s one of those “I just look religious on the outside, it’s really a front” type of Christians

you still don’t want them conflicted over their religion in order to pursue a hidden desire of theirs

because now you’ve just made themselves look like a hypocrite to themselves

and usually people feel bad about themselves when they fold on their own values

if u care about the person

u should just leave them to find someone who plays by their rules

someone who also likes sex but is ashamed by it

you probably want someone who is shameless about sex and loves it and is good at it

don’t turn someone into someone their not and feel bad about being EVEN if their reasons are stupid

agh ik it’s annoying to run into these types

if only all of the super religious girls were ugly (sigh)

my first time back on the forum in a while, good to hear from you,

biggus