Marty-
Nice going here. You're making solid progress.
Still, some comments:
Marty said:
We spent about 75 minutes in the café; she's very intellectual and a little bit excitable, like a child—when this happens she becomes incredibly pretty. We connected very deeply on some pretty serious topics, but with a good measure of lightheartedness thrown in. I easily deflected her initial attempts to get me to qualify myself, and noticed her eyes light up as she realized she couldn't actually get me to do anything she wanted.
All this sounds great... her intrigue and excitement is building, and building... she wants satisfaction, but can't get none...
Marty said:
I ended the café visit on my terms
Excellent, excellent...
Marty said:
She did however shut down my attempts to bounce her anywhere at all, even walk her home
Whoa - red alert.
She's
intrigued, but does not sound
turned on. It also seems that while you've intrigued her, she still retains a fair amount of control of the interaction (probably not enough compliance built up for you yet, and I'd guess not much touch either - two things I'd probably suggest you work on - get a lot more small compliance and a lot more small touch going on throughout your interactions; you'll be amazed at how much these two sprinkled throughout an interaction really work to ramp up the vibe and turn her from your "equal" to someone willingly and excitedly following your lead and conceding to your every suggestion).
Anyway, at this point, I'd probably treat this as an
informational date, meet her for that 75 minutes, talk, chat, get her intrigued, build up some touch and some compliance, and then end things on your terms.
Keeping it going here reads like you aren't properly reading the vibe of the interaction and are trying to force things where they probably won't work. If you're leaving town or you blew it earlier and you know it's now or never, this can make sense, but in this situation and judging by your experience level I think you're much better served using
date compression until you're good enough at sleeping with girls on second and third dates and you're building enough of a sexual vibe and intrigue on the first date to start going for it.
Going for sex on first dates when you're still inexperienced at managing things is interesting. You will tend to lose more experienced women, but succeed more with inexperienced ones / ones that are very into you. So, kind of a mixed bag for learning. I'd still probably recommend going for first date sex for most guys early on, but maybe if it's a girl you really like and it doesn't feel like you have control of the interaction, try to draw things out a bit first and see if you can establish more control over the course of several dates before you go for it until you know what you're doing more with first date sex and don't run into the hesitation / uncertainty that you do when you're less experienced trying to run this with more experienced gals.
Good rule of thumb: if she's a girl you don't care about at all, try your experimental stuff out on her that you don't have down perfectly yet to get your training in. If she's a girl you're fond of though, use whatever pattern / material you've been using most successfully to-date. So if you're usually sleeping with girls on date #3 (I think your last LR was this, right?), I'd follow that pattern with girls you really like until you've got first date sex down well enough with girls you don't care too much about to move that up to your default even with girls who are your ideals.
Marty said:
Marty: (taking both her hands, staring deep into her eyes) Do you think we'll see each other again?
Unless you do this from an extremely dominant, powerful, sexual frame - that is, one where she's been following your lead like a little puppy and is at your beck-and-call and will do pretty much anything you ask of her - this communicates a lack of control and a need for reassurance on your part, and hurts your chances to see her again.
I'm actually unsure why you asked - if it was because you genuinely wanted to know, you're better off squelching that urge, and just waiting a few days to see for yourself - whatever answer she gives you here is going to be worthless anyway, because women say "yes" when they really want to say "no", and "no" when they want to say "yes", and so on and so forth, and they change their minds a mile a minute. You won't get a real answer until you actually ask her out again anyway, so asking here serves no purpose except to lessen the odds you do see her again.
Similarly, if this was to flirt, you're better off just smiling slyly and telling her, "Nice getting food with you," and then turn and walk off into the mist. WAY more romantic, seductive, and intriguing than asking her if she thinks you'll ever see each other again. If you're going for the "old movie flirtation" thing, ask yourself this:
Which person (guy or gal) asks the other, "Do you think we'll ever see each other again?"
Which person (guy or gal) says to the other, "Nice getting food with you," with a sexy smile, then turns and walks off?
(that latter could actually be either, but whoever says it is clearly the one in the driver's seat of the seduction)
Marty said:
BigSister: Yeah, I'm pretty sure we will. Why, do you think we'll see each other again?
This is pretty bad, because she's saying it very casually and reassuringly. At this point, she is now taking care of your emotions.
Marty said:
Marty: (looking off into distance) Not sure...
Transparent attempt to regain control of the interaction here, Marty. This actually makes you look less in control to her, because it seems like you're flailing about for a way to take back command.
Marty said:
BigSister: Why on Earth not?
Marty: Well, I'd like to see you, obviously... but you don't want to spend more time together right now, and if only it was as simple as just scheduling... life happens in the interim, things get in the way. That must have happened to you before.
BigSister: Well, I want to see you again.
Marty: That's good.
Okay, I *think* I see where you're going with this... you're trying to communicate the fact that if you don't do something now, it may never happen?
When you use this one, you only want to use it from a position of power / command, when you are instructing her to come with you, demanding compliance, and you're confident you're not going to contact her again if it doesn't work out (i.e., it literally is "now or never").
You do NOT tell her about this in a "just so you know" kind of way.
You will also NOT use this with girls you are going to call again and ask out later. You're confusing too different types of game - one's now-or-never, do-or-die game where you've got one life and if your guy falls down the pit it's "Game Over"; the other's go it slow, build up intrigue, and take your time - time is still of the essence, but you're still going to try and get her out on subsequent dates so it isn't like now's the only chance you have to do anything.
Here's an example of what mixing these up does: let's say you go to a gym to inquire about membership. They take you for the tour, show you everything, it looks good. You like the place. You say, "Cool; well, let me take off now and I will follow up with you in a few days."
They then go into a long sales pitch where they tell you that 92% of the people who walk out that door without signing up NEVER sign up, and if you don't do it now you probably never will. You say well, thanks, I like the gym, I *think* I will, I just need time to think about it.
Finally, you get out of there.
Then, a few days later, they call you and ask you if you want to come back to check out the gym again and see if you're still interested.
What are you most likely to do?
Essentially, there's two ways the end of the date goes: hard push for the close NOW, or ending it on your terms with intrigue and control still in your favor to follow up later. You can do one, but not both; the two are mutually exclusive.
Marty said:
I kiss her on the mouth, she opens up, no silly resistance, no cheek-turn or anything...
- BigSister: Wow, that was very nice! Thank you!! You kiss well...
Marty: Really? I think we can do better than that.
This time I pull her whole body in for a sexual kiss, arm fully encompassing waist, her groin pressed up against mine very tight, a deep kiss where I wait for her to commence tongue action, which she does. This lasts for several seconds: it's a good makeout, but not a full-on session which might risk sending her into "buyer's remorse" mode. I pull away.
- BigSister: Yes! That was better. That was so nice, thank you!
Marty: That's probably enough while we're out here in public.
BigSister: Yeah, any more would be inappropriate I guess.
We kiss on the mouth one more time and part.
There's zero sexual intrigue here - the compliment she gives you (taking care of your emotions), delivering the kiss at the end of a power struggle that went in her favor, etc. - she's just declined to sleep with you, so you've kissed her. Reads like some combination of "Hey! Thanks for not sleeping with me!" and "Okay, well, let me try this anyway as my last-ditch effort to re-interest you."
Marty said:
Who knows, it might actually happen. Girls have a nasty habit of vanishing on me, but this one allegedly promised the contrary, so we'll see if she's true to her word.
I think how you're ending these dates may be the reason why. You're confusing two different forms of close - the hard push, and a soft cliffhanger / leave her wanting more ending - and it's just leaving bad tastes in their mouths, Marty.
The thing IS, it sounds like you were in good shape until the end - had you legitimately ending things on your terms and left her intrigued and wondering if she's going to hear from you again and whether you really enjoyed seeing her or not, instead of you fishing around for her coming with you and getting turned down and trying to walk her home and getting turned down and floating some idea about people who don't have sex never see each other again kind of randomly outside the context of leading her strongly toward that objective and then throwing a random kiss in there at the end (rewarding bad behavior).
Shape up your date end game and I think you will start doing a LOT better with these girls, especially if this is a remotely common pattern.
I'd suggest you pick ONE (1) of these formats:
And follow it to a "T".
That means, if you're doing first date sex, you are pushing hard and leading and staying on top of the ball constantly - no yielding to her, no following along with her, no more "floating" ideas that you should be TELLING to her, then commanding her to take action and follow your lead, etc.
Or, if you're following date compression, you are ending your dates with intrigue and curiosity, with her feeling excited and sexy and like you are very flirty at the close but do not give her satisfaction about what your intentions are or what you want or what you are going for or when or even IF you will contact her again.
Pick just one of these, and stick to it. Once you've got that one down, you can branch out and learn the other.
Marty said:
Okay so here's what happened.
I pinged this girl today, and in response I got a couple texts filling more than an entire iPhone screen, giving me the spiel about being "just now out of a big relationship" and "dating doesn't feel like the right thing" and needing "to do a little regrouping".
Bullshit.
So what I think I'll do is not to reply at all, cut contact for 6 months, then come back in December or so (if I'm still in town) asking whether she's ready to subject herself to the horrors and ravages of the opposite sex yet.
Anybody have a better idea, I'm all ears
Interesting that she wrote you a giant response. That tells you a few things:
1. She's conflicted.
2. She likes you enough that she isn't going to just brush you off.
3. She's working pretty hard to convince herself that this is the right course.
Your best chance at a turnaround is NOT radio silence here, because that's only going to give her time to cement this idea of you as long-term only material in her mind, and then she'll only be open to meeting you later if she finds herself husband-hunting and you're one of her better options. She's much more likely to just find some attractive-enough guy to start dating and be off the market if she's as cute / interesting / peppy as you say.
I'd do this: call her up, and take a, "Hey, thanks for that really long message, but you're making this way too big of a deal. Let's just get a bite. I promise I'll behave
" frame.
That is:
she is long, conflicted, and verbose. YOU are short, playful, relaxed, and commanding.
IF you can do this, you will probably get her out. I've had lots of success with girls giving me long speeches calling them and saying, in a very playful/sexy tone of voice with a smile on my face, what amounts to, "Hey kiddo, knock it off! Let's just grab a beer - we're not deciding the fates of nations here."
Keep it short, keep it playful - girls are silly and cute; you almost need to be laughing to yourself about how big a deal she's making this, because it's NOT a big deal.
And then give her instructions, because she is confused and uncertain and she needs a commanding man who can tell her what to do and how to live her life (and, later, to fill her up with manly goodness).
If you do get her out, I strongly, STRONGLY recommend you play it cool this date, keep it short but electric, do NOT kiss, do NOT invite her home, and just focus on building as much intrigue and making her wonder as much as possible.
She's feeling out of control. You need to play up the angle that you are FIRMLY in control. Your lowest-risk way of doing that is by not asking for any crazy compliance or decision making on her part, but just sit there and make her go crazy trying to figure you out... then end the date, leaving her still wondering more.
@ Ocantu-
ocantu1987 said:
Great man! let us know how it goes. I took a girl home, made out, pushed for sex but failed her LMR, well the next day she had buyers remorse and she kept making excuses on going the second date with me. I have been curious to try just going for the kiss/make out on the first date, and maybe by date 3 go for the F-close, thats if you are seeking a relationship like me. Girls chase preaches fast sex, but i am somewhat skeptical and think you may push great girls away...what do you think marty?
When you're still a beginner at getting to sex from dates, unless you have great natural instincts with women (some guys do, and can come in and make it work right out of the gates; but most guys need to work up to it), I recommend you start with
date compression and work your way down from there.
Kissing not followed immediately by sex is
usually bad, for most guys, because the girl has to end it first and it feels like the guy wants more but can't get it, thus making him look impotent and not in control of the interaction. The exception is if you are very sexy and clearly very in control of the interaction - in that case, you can get away with this: "
How to Kiss Girls in Public and Have It Go Great" so long as you are ending things first and doing it in a very teasing, flirty, "I am SERIOUSLY in control - you are my plaything" way.
First date sex will help you close out more great girls, not less, once you know what you're doing; however, if you're not at a point yet where you are consistently in firm command of your dates, clearly the leader, building lots of sexual tension, and using lots of compliance and/or touch to get her very comfortable with you and firmly following your lead, you will tend to bumble through things, hesitate and be unsure, and slip into asking or not persisting rather than commanding in gentle, sexual, but firm ways that lead her from the date to your bedroom. You'll still usually get more girls in bed
overall than by trying to wait and pace things, but many of the really sexy, more experienced girls will deny you here if you're not smooth until you get your act together - you're better off breaking things up across multiple dates with women who more easily retain control of the date scenario with you.
Chase
