How does the concept of "fun" fit into your view of masculinity?

[metalbird]

@West_Indian_Archie had this to say in a previous discussion:

The prime markets - 18-25 - don't really care about money, they care about fun, which is why same aged rich guys often lose out to so-called bad boys at the very same venue. The typical FAANG programmer pulling down 250-350k a year doesn't hit those primal instincts, despite his 6 figures and 6 pack or IG with 6 continents of travel. The Rust expert ends up outplaying the jock by being more emotionally interesting. Not necessarily funnier (typically laughter breaks tension, when we want to build tension), but the more interesting to the girl on an emotional level.

This got me thinking about the role that "fun" plays in a man's life, and how that ties into seduction and dating.

I remember a conversation I had with a close guy friend a couple years ago. We played in a band together -- had a lot of fun playing small shows and such. On this occasion, we were discussing a third mutual friend and bandmember and the topic of work ethic. At the time, this guy was working at Starbucks. My friend said to me,

"When I ask him how his shift went, he'll usually reply with something like 'It was fun" or 'It wasn't very fun today.' That's his problem. 'Real men' don't care about fun. That's not what a job is about."

For my friend and I, playing in the band was something we did on the side. But for our mutual friend, he never matured past wanting life to be fun, and that, my friend argued, was why he was still working at Starbucks at 30 years old.

------

Within the various internet channels directed at men, I've seen several different camps. There's a whole camp of essentially "modern stoics" who advocate making life as challenging and unfun as possible in order to achieve greatness (which presumably includes being attractive to women). There's the broad mainstream channel of "work/life balance, treat yourself, self-care, etc.". Then there are various "don't try" camps which might fall under minimalism, hedonism, Zen, or something else.

In real life on the other hand, most men I know seem to fall into one of two camps:

1. They try to work as little as possible and maximize "fun". Some of them are successful with women, some aren't.
2. They are achievement oriented and work a lot. They are generally not very successful with women, but they may have a family at home already.

From my own personal experience and what I've seen, the more "fun" oriented a man is, the better he'll do with women, but the less he'll achieve in other areas of life. The most successful guys seem to be the ones who have fun and get high quality women when they're young, lock down a good one, and then shift into achievement mode.

In my case, I did not lock down a high quality girl when I was in "fun" mode, and now it feels pretty hard to both get what I want from life, and find a good partner. Funny how many women say the same thing from their perspective at this age.

How do you all include (or exclude) fun from your lives as men and seducers?

- metalbird

 

[ulrich]

I went through a phase back when I was younger when I was enamored with stoicism and tried to remove all sentimentality from my life.

While I can say that I became much more effective in work and my life became calmer, it was a terrible tool for connecting with people.

“Fun” is a form of pleasure… is a nice feeling we all like to feel and that we can use to connect with almost all people (unlike for example lust or schadenfreude).

Stoicism is a extreme point of view… feelings is a part of what makes us humans.
You can go all serious no play with your life. That may as well take you to greatness.
But make no mistakes, that is not a pleasurable nor a wholesome ride.

A balance between work and fun is best… how much balance? Well, that’s for each one to decide.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

You're looking at this in a wayyyyyyy to binary fashion @metalbird

I have a friend who's 26, looks and acts like a bartender but he recently bought a 2-bedroom property in London *SOLO*. He's a lawyer by trade but he is one of the most loose and fun guys you'll ever meet. You can definitely do both (it's obviously difficult) but the question is how?

Most Common Routes

1. Focus on fun until mid-late 20's then buckle down on achievement
2. Focus on achievement until early-mid 30's then you shift to fun

Both these guys reach the same point by about ~40

Society encourages 1 but I personally think 2 is the route to go. Especially because men are consistently seen as most attractive 30-50.

Think people find the transition from fun to work harder vs vice versa because of years sometimes decades of bad habits.

Realistic Options

GoodLookingLoser - used to recommend 2 years of fuckry to get it out your system then buckle down on work.

Iman Gadzhi - works like a monk for 6 months, then parties like a socialite for the rest of the year

Wallstreetplayboys - had a great point that the way you achieve great things and stay fun is develop an "on and off" switch.

I.E Work 60 hours a week and go out x1-x2 a week. When you stop working, you stop being logical, you listen to music, watch some comedy, crack jokes with a friend, do a cool hobby (even when you don't feel like it) and that keeps the "balance".

If your FAANG programmer example, looked, dressed and acted like a fun fuckboy then suddenly he's gone from "boring" to the "golden ticket"

Problem is guys tend to want girls to like them for what they're good at vs what girls actually want (fun and a wide range of emotions, then as they get older someone who can give some form of security) *shrugs*

Fun unsuccessful guys get annoyed that their mum's basement doesn't cut it anymore and rich guys get annoyed that their romantic EQ doesn't cut it even if they have money in the bank. *Long term* you need both.

 

[Rakehell]

The concept of ditching fun for greater advancement is rooted in red pill ideology. In my opinion it’s ridiculous, it’s entirely possible to achieve without having any fun (seems like a shit way to live but hey). It’s also possible to only have fun and not achieve anything. It’s also possible to have fun and achieve at the same time.

Who cares about adhering to masculinity when it has nothing to do with what you’re trying to accomplish in life. Unless your goal is to be the ultimate “masculine man” according to societies standards, you could live your life having fun and accomplishing your goals, they aren’t mutually exclusive. You aren’t either having fun or getting shit done.

 

[Skills]

You're looking at this in a wayyyyyyy to binary fashion @metalbird

I have a friend who's 26, looks and acts like a bartender but he recently bought a 2-bedroom property in London *SOLO*. He's a lawyer by trade but he is one of the most loose and fun guys you'll ever meet. You can definitely do both (it's obviously difficult) but the question is how?

Most Common Routes

1. Focus on fun until mid-late 20's then buckle down on achievement
2. Focus on achievement until early-mid 30's then you shift to fun

Both these guys reach the same point by about ~40

Society encourages 1 but I personally think 2 is the route to go. Especially because men are consistently seen as most attractive 30-50.

Think people find the transition from fun to work harder vs vice versa because of years sometimes decades of bad habits.

Realistic Options

GoodLookingLoser - used to recommend 2 years of fuckry to get it out your system then buckle down on work.

Iman Gadzhi - works like a monk for 6 months, then parties like a socialite for the rest of the year

Wallstreetplayboys - had a great point that the way you achieve great things and stay fun is develop an "on and off" switch.

I.E Work 60 hours a week and go out x1-x2 a week. When you stop working, you stop being logical, you listen to music, watch some comedy, crack jokes with a friend, do a cool hobby (even when you don't feel like it) and that keeps the "balance".

If your FAANG programmer example, looked, dressed and acted like a fun fuckboy then suddenly he's gone from "boring" to the "golden ticket"

Problem is guys tend to want girls to like them for what they're good at vs what girls actually want (fun and a wide range of emotions, then as they get older someone who can give some form of security) *shrugs*

Fun unsuccessful guys get annoyed that their mum's basement doesn't cut it anymore and rich guys get annoyed that their romantic EQ doesn't cut it even if they have millions in the bank. *Long term* you need both.

The wallstreet dudes have it right with the on and off switch....

 

[Alpha13SC]

You're looking at this in a wayyyyyyy to binary fashion @metalbird

I have a friend who's 26, looks and acts like a bartender but he recently bought a 2-bedroom property in London *SOLO*. He's a lawyer by trade but he is one of the most loose and fun guys you'll ever meet. You can definitely do both (it's obviously difficult) but the question is how?

Most Common Routes

1. Focus on fun until mid-late 20's then buckle down on achievement
2. Focus on achievement until early-mid 30's then you shift to fun

Both these guys reach the same point by about ~40

Society encourages 1 but I personally think 2 is the route to go. Especially because men are consistently seen as most attractive 30-50.

Think people find the transition from fun to work harder vs vice versa because of years sometimes decades of bad habits.

Realistic Options

GoodLookingLoser - used to recommend 2 years of fuckry to get it out your system then buckle down on work.

Iman Gadzhi - works like a monk for 6 months, then parties like a socialite for the rest of the year

Wallstreetplayboys - had a great point that the way you achieve great things and stay fun is develop an "on and off" switch.

I.E Work 60 hours a week and go out x1-x2 a week. When you stop working, you stop being logical, you listen to music, watch some comedy, crack jokes with a friend, do a cool hobby (even when you don't feel like it) and that keeps the "balance".

If your FAANG programmer example, looked, dressed and acted like a fun fuckboy then suddenly he's gone from "boring" to the "golden ticket"

Problem is guys tend to want girls to like them for what they're good at vs what girls actually want (fun and a wide range of emotions, then as they get older someone who can give some form of security) *shrugs*

Fun unsuccessful guys get annoyed that their mum's basement doesn't cut it anymore and rich guys get annoyed that their romantic EQ doesn't cut it even if they have millions in the bank. *Long term* you need both.

I m mid Twenties, went to the 1st route, but I m quite disciplined due to my healthy lifestyle(if almost obsession can be labeled as healthy).

Anyway, there s another variable in this way of thinking, and that s the brain plasticity. Your rate of learning.

Learning how to deal with people, learn game, have a lot of social activities when you re young you re training yourself the right way, without the need to deconstruct wrong beliefs later in life, and also maybe picking up clues faster)

Spend most of your time working when you re young, and then when it s the time to have fun, the activities would be different. How many early 30's would put themselves in danger, doing illegal activities, driving drunk and high and so on? Or how many of them did they had a fight or something?

My point is that what you re choosing when you re young it can define what you ll become.

Best one? It depends. I see people my age doing start ups, having nice cars and so on. But also, I m quite sure those guys didn t get a blowjob between classes at university.

My view on the original matter?

Whatever you re doing, seek adventure, adrenaline and risk. And you can incorporate that while working( throwing yourself in a big project, lots of demands, lots of rewarding and pushing yourself can be very beneficial as a social frame, risk related, like applying for leader roles and so on), or if you re having fun, as I said, risk it. Do something unusual.

That's more my kind of fun. New challenges and unknown.

 

[TomInHo]

Most playboys I personally know tend to work to live, rather than live to work. I'm in my mid 30's and pretty successful with women and business and both parts of my life helped the other.

For example, in my twenties I focused mostly on improving my social skills and banging chicks with little to no money. Then when I started working in business, my social skills helped immensely in attracting new clients, but I lacked the logical sense to keep things going

But as I developed systems for my business it also made me realize I could use those same analytical skills when it came to women, in terms of acquisition and retention

So I think it pays to be balanced, the best way to achieve that would be to go "on and off" like Wallstreetplayboys suggest

 

[DonGately]

One of the reasons to live in a place like Manhattan or Miami or Vegas is you can work your ass off to be successful in your 20s/30s but head out at ...9pm...midnite...or 2am and meet hot chicks somewhere any night of the week. You can grind 12 days in a row 16 hrs and then go out Fri/Sat or whatever and easily get laid if you have game. I grinded from 21 to 32 almost non-stop but I lived in NYC so I could have both achievements and date lots of women.

WIA is dead-on about hot, young girls wanting 'fun.' I've been in my 40s for a while now and I can assure you that no very hot college girl is sleeping with me because she thinks I have money [which I obviously do, but so do millions of other dudes who can't get girls!] It's not about telling jokes it's about living a truly fun lifestyle.

You bring a great smile and fun attitude and a solid fashion sense, know where the good bars, restaurants and clubs are, live nearby and you are 75% of the way there. They will also assume older men are good at sex so if you are they keep coming back. Offer them something different than the young boys they see every day in class. Almost every girl today if not into kink/bondage/ D/s will be very curious about it. Getting off is fun, but the rest of a sexual experience should be so as well.

WIA also said something like 'Choices defines the player.' There's a great quote that says something like: When you decide to be a beer or wine drinker at ~21, you are making a choice that helps to determine your friends, activities, travel plans, social circle in a meaningful way.
It's not that beer> wine or vice versa, but the people you meet will be very very different, all other things being equal. The girls you game at those venues, or who look at you order an IPA or rose cava, will be totally different.

That choice will open some doors and close some others. You can't be in Napa while you're at Oktoberfest. Good wine generally costs more than good beer but it goes much deeper than that.

 

[StrayDog]

@metalbird If unfun experiences are what truly define the development of masculinity, how about your buddy just goes ahead and chops his dick off. He'll be the manliest one among us.

And anyway, I'd postulate your friend still working at Starbucks is due less to him wanting to have fun, and more so wanting to eschew certain responsibilities. Being responsible can actually be rather fun, as it comes with many pleasing rewards. Challenging ones self and growing can be fun, though not always easy, and indeed sometimes uncomfortable. Overcoming that discomfort is part of what makes it fun. Conversely, many activities that can feel "fun" upfront, can be pretty miserable when the other shoe drops. Punishing oneself in the name of growth, or some ephemeral masculine virtue is hardly fun, true, but I would argue that it also offers less growth and virtue than some may argue it does. Should it offer any sort of growth or virtue, it is hardly in a well-rounded way, and one can count on a good deal of suffering (that a man would otherwise not have to suffer). This ain't black and white. Thank god. Imagine that life wasn't so dynamic. Yikes.

 

[Rakehell]

It’s deeper than fun, a loser with money or awards or achievement, is still a loser interpersonally. You can’t buy character.

I was fortunate enough to be introduced to a boatload of money at a young age. My dad came across millions without getting too much into detail, he lost it.

During that time I could have anything I wanted, but when you’re in that situation you’ll realize things are just things. They lose their shine overtime and quickly.

It’ll get you attention, but that attention will be just attention if the person doesn’t match the grandeur. A castle with no king is just a castle.

 

[Zoro]

I don’t think having fun is the problem. It’s avoiding the harder parts of life that’s a problem.

If you’re having fun to escape from responsibilities and avoid anything that is “not fun” then you’re going to stagnate.

And conversely, if you’re all work and no play, you’re probably also going to suffer unnecessarily.

I can agree with you’re assessment of your friend’s attitude about work. Fun or not fun is not the info from “how was work” I’m interested in knowing. “Was it productive? Meaningful? What’s your next step after Starbucks? What are you building?”

 

[Beck Bass]

During that time I could have anything I wanted, but when you’re in that situation you’ll realize things are just things. They lose their shine overtime and quickly.

It's that thing about "borrowed power" and "real power". Human being weren't "made" to have money, we were made to evolve, to become as good as we can be. Some people mistake that for money, since lots of people wanna push other to do the dirty work for them, while they enjoy their lifes (and our obsession with numbers drives us to want more and more, hence the power of money, it's the most tangible number in life, a least on appearance).

I don’t think having fun is the problem. It’s avoiding the harder parts of life that’s a problem.

If you’re having fun to escape from responsibilities and avoid anything that is “not fun” then you’re going to stagnate.

Yeah, we need to feel like we are going somewhere, becoming better somehow. People that just do the same things over and over (and don't improve) lose the joy for life