How to address wild cards?

[Calibration]

As I explained in the other post, I'm facing a lot of wild cards or curve balls which I don't know how to address and I'm getting the same results since I'm doing the same thing over and over again. Since there are different wild cards, with every girl and I've been facing a lot of different wild cards recently, I thought I'll make this blanket post with the wild cards that I'm facing. Else, I'll have to create a lot of posts which is not practical. So, this is going to be a long post but I'm hoping everyone is going to get help from this post. So, please bear with me.

In the other post, I mentioned that if I don't do sex talk, then the girl won't be stimulated to come home with me. But if I do sex talk and she doesn't want to come home with me for whatever reason (period, not shaved her pussy, she is tired, she has other plans that she can't cancel, she has to wake up early next morning etc) then I basically created "blue balls" like what @Will_V calls and I'm not going to see her again. Ironically, after I saw your reply @Will_V I did try exactly that today but I failed.

@Skills you made an excellent post (thanks again for sharing that) about why the girl would not want to come home, for ex: Having her periods but in your post, you didn't mention why she'd still want to meet you again, if you haven't stimulated her enough? I'll take an example of a girl that I met yesterday with whom I didn't do any sex talk but did everything else but she still ghosted me. Possible reason is that she didn't have enough time to meet me. She is leaving the city tomorrow. So, she just had today to meet me but she might've thought its not worth the investment to see me again. I'll give a gist of how the interaction went and please point out if I could've done anything better that might've made her meet me without sex talk:

I saw her sitting in front of the waterfront just having finished her takeaway lunch. Conversation goes like this:

ME: I like that ring that you're wearing.​

SHE: Thanks. (With a smile)​

ME: What does it mean?​

SHE: Nothing. Just for fashion.​

ME: Nice! You seem to love jewellery, you're wearing a lot of jewellery (She had a lot of rings, ear piercings etc)​

SHE: Ya, I love these.​

ME: So, you're married (with a smirk.. she was wearing it on ring-finger. Just to tease her. I knew she wasn't married)​

SHE: Hahaha.. No, I just like to wear it on that finger.​

ME: Come on, you shouldn't be doing that. What if guys think you're married and they don't come and talk to you? (with a smirk)​

SHE: Hahaha.. you're funny!​

ME: Anyway, what are you doing here? You seem to be lost in some deep thoughts, looking into the oblivion.​

SHE: Ya, I was just thinking what to do since I arrived only yesterday and I don't have any plans for the next couple of days here and I'm leaving the town after that.​

ME: Where are you going?​

SHE: I'm going to blah..blah.. blah.. Do you think I should go to this place? (Shows some place on google maps)​

ME: Yeah, its lovely. (Perhaps a mistake from me. Cos, this is why she couldn't meet me today but I didn't want to lie and say "No that place isn't good" so that she can meet me. BTW, it didn't strike me also not to do that).​

SHE: Ok, then I'll go there tomorrow.​

ME: When I saw you, I thought you looked like Julia Roberts.​

SHE: Hahaha.. why do you think so?​

ME: Not sure.. I got a feeling that you're like her from "Eat, Pray, Love" movie.​

SHE: Hahaha​

ME: Do you know that movie?​

SHE: Of course!​

ME: So, are you here for eating? praying? or looking for Love?​

SHE: Hahaha.. all 3.​

ME: Perfect! ​

ME: So, what do you do back home when you're not thinking of eating, praying and loving? (Qualification)​

SHE: I'm a graphic designer.​

ME: I wouldn't have guessed that you'd be a graphic designer.​

SHE: Oh! Why?​

ME: Cos you don't look like someone who sits in the office and work!​

SHE: Then?​

ME: You look like the adventurous type, maybe a bit crazy! (with a smirk)​

SHE: Hahaha! You're right.. I'm exactly like that. How did you guess?​

ME: I could sense that from your vibe. Your colourful clothes, carefree look etc.​

SHE: Yeah but I'm travelling. Otherwise, I won't be like this all the time.​

ME: I mean nobody can be like this all the time but there are somethings that you can guess from seeing/meeting someone.​

SHE: So, what do you do? (Hook)​

ME: I live here.. I mean there (pointing to my apartment) I work as a business analyst.​

SHE: Nice! You live right in the centre of the city. Its so convenient.​

ME: Yes!​

ME: Anyway, what do you do in your free time? (Second qualification)​

SHE: I like hiking, meeting friends and painting.​

ME: Painting? My ears just opened up when you said painting (gesturing my ears opening)​

SHE: Haha! Why is that?​

ME: Cos you're passionate about something outside of work and other things that everybody does like meeting friends, watching TV etc (Rewarding her for qualifying)​

ME: (continuing....) See when I looked at you, I thought ya she is definitely cute (She doesn't miss saying Thanks!) but what interests me about someone is whether they do something that they're passionate about.​

SHE: I'm not a great artist or anything.​

ME: Doesn't matter, as long as you keep your mind engaged and do something that stimulates you, you're alive and you're appreciating your life.​

SHE: Thanks! (Eyes open widely and she is attracted)​

SHE: What do you do in your free time?​

ME: I do a number of things but it just depends on how I'm feeling at a given point in time​

SHE: Like?​

ME: I dance and I'm very passionate about dancing, roller skating, Yoga, drawing etc​

SHE: That's awesome! that you do Yoga​

ME: Ya, I used to teach yoga before covid but now things are hard to coordinate blah..blah..blah about yoga​

SHE: Asks a lot of things about Yoga and meditation (Blah..Blah..Blah..)​

ME: I like Yoga but I'm very passionate about dancing..​

ME: In fact I do everything passionately (deep eye contact. She knew what I was talking about)​

SHE: What are you doing now?​

ME: I work from home. Just came out for lunch and I have a meeting soon that I need to get back to.​

SHE: Ok, we should catchup sometime before we leave (Shit test?)​

ME: (Pushing it asap) Yes, what are you doing today evening? (Shit test failed!)​

SHE: I travelled today and I need sleep so much. I just need to sleep a lot.​

ME: Ya but you'd be sleeping at night. I asked about evening​

SHE: Ya but I want to sleep early since the time difference is affecting me.​

Some ppl come and sit next to us.​

SHE: Do you want to give your number and we can see?​

ME: Ya, lets go for a quick walk. I'll show you something nice. (Just to create a time-bridge scenario and also to change the topic from non-compliance)​

SHE: Sure! lets go​

ME: I don't have a lot of time since I have this meeting in 20 mins. So, lets briefly go there.​

SHE: Yep! Lets go​

ME: Walked another 5 mins and took her to another place.​

SHE: Wow! this is beautiful​

ME: So, how long are you here you said?​

SHE: I'm going to leave the day after tomorrow.​

ME: (With some drama...keeping hand on my heart) Oh I'll miss you Kira.. We should meet tonight. (Second attempt)​

SHE: Hmm..no, I'm so tired and I don't think I have the energy to do anything (She implied sex)​

ME: (I didn't want to plough anymore..,) Ya, I think you're right, we should meet when you have slept well and are fully energetic (Pacing)​

ME: Lets meet tomorrow evening.​

SHE: Ok​

ME: (Just creating a false scenario to see her reaction to meet today) Oh, tomorrow I have to meet someone.​

SHE: (Doesn't react)​

ME: Anyway lets keep in touch and see how we go over text​

SHE: Ya, that sounds good (we exchange contact)​

ME: I'm getting late to the meeting, lets go​

SHE: (She walks with me..)​

ME: I just noticed you have long eye-lashes (I've defaulted this to every girl I meet LOL) (Said this to reaffirm that I'm not her best friend here)​

SHE: Oh no.. I wish it was longer​

ME: I thought they are nice but if you say so, I must agree (Tease)​

SHE: Hahaha... (punches my arm)​

ME: Ya, I think you're right... maybe you're a bit ugly?​

SHE: Hahaha... I actually liked to stick fake eye lashes but then I don't like anything unnatural​

ME: That's good.. You must own yourself. I really like that quality. I like confident people.​

SHE: Ya, that's true.​

ME: Anyway, don't ever use fake eyelashes, they're already good (Just to avoid her from going into auto-rejection of what I said earlier)​

SHE: Thanks...​

ME: Anyway, I have to go this way... See you again​

SHE: Ok, it was great meeting you. I loved talking to you. You're the first person I spoke to here and it was very nice.​

ME: (Being Stoic) Yes, it was nice (I knew she's not going to see me again, if she's said the above). Bye! Just remember not to wear fake eyelashes (Just to create a sense of mystery of whether or not I'll meet her cos I had already pushed quite hard to meet the same evening)​

​

After 30 mins... Over text...​

​

Me: Shawn ​

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***Radio Silence***​

​

I'm sure I've missed many things from the interaction but this is how it went overall that lasted for nearly 30mins. Typically my non-sex-talk conversations are like this.​

Note: One thing I did miss doing was, a lot of physical escalation. I just shook hands and tickled her once for saying something cheeky. Doing verbal escalation these days, I think I'm forgetting physical escalation.​

​

@Will_V you made a very good point about sending that Leopard text which came across as BF vibe but I was trying to banter for sometime before I went for the close and was testing waters. @Skills in this scenario where there is very limited time for back and forth with the girl, do you still recommend Open > Banter > Soft Close > Hard Close format? IMO, its tricky to do that. What do you think?​

​

With a lot of ghosts and flakes these days, I didn't have much hope in this girl. So, it was all good. However, I'm doing the same over and over again and failing. So, I posted an update yesterday on the other post. Anyway, from the post you shared, what could I have done better over text or even in person to make it work? After I read your's and @Will_V 's responses, I was a bit confused whether to do sex talk or not and thought I'll calibrate according to the situation and went out today. Was feeling a bit off since things are again not going smoothly but just did my best and approached 2 girls in the park. They outright rejected and was a bit pissed off. I saw this other 3rd girl once in the park but she wasn't as good as the other two. So, I had passed her, although she walked right in front of me.​

As I was licking my wounds from those 2 rejections and walking outside the park, I saw this 3rd girl at the park entrance and just opened her thinking I already got rejected twice. So, nothing to lose if I get another one but she was super receptive. Interaction went like this:​

​

Me: Hey!​

She: Hello!​

Me: You look cute!​

She: haha! Thanks!​

Me: I saw you were wandering around like you're new here.​

She: Yes I am. How did you guess?​

Me: I saw that you were exploring and guessed you must be new​

She: haha.. Ya, I like this park. Its so beautiful.​

Me: Yes, it is but isn't it as beautiful like this in France?​

She: Hahaha.. how do you know I'm French?​

Me: From your accent​

She: Damn! Is it so bad? (Common question from French girls)​

Me: When did I say its bad? Its actually very cute. I tried learning French accent from Youtube sometime and gave up since I can never talk like you guys.​

She: Oh! You're the first person to say this since French ppl are conscious of their accent, they avoid speaking in English but nice that you like it.​

Me: Yes, its very cute. I have a lot of French friends and we laugh together about some of the words that you guys say...the ones without 'H'​

She: Hahaha.. like ello? instead of Hello?​

Me: haha.. and also Otel instead of Hotel​

She: Hahaha..​

Me: If you didn't speak with French accent, I'd have guessed that you're Italian or Greek.​

She: Hahaha.. you guessed it right.​

(Moves her closer to the fence since we were talking standing right in the middle of the footpath)​

Me: So, are you greek?​

She: No​

Me: Italian?​

She: Yes.. I have Italian descend. ​

Me: Ya, I could guess that from your olive colour skin​

She: Ya, exactly.​

Me: I really love that skin colour. Like Monica Bellucci.​

She: (Flattered) Thaaaanks!!! Hahaha​

Me: Oh, she is so beautiful. Has that angelic vibe...​

She: Totally..​

Me: So, anyway, what plans for today?​

She: I'm going to the museum now.​

Me: Ah, I think they have an exhibition​

She: yes, I'm going there.​

Me: Ok...BTW, I like your ear piercings (Deep eye contact)​

She: Thanks​

Me: They actually look.. Hmmm.. nevermind​

She: Tell me what..​

Me: They look very sexy!​

She: (Blushes) Thanks...​

Me: Anyway, how long have you been here?​

She: I arrived only yesterday​

Me: Oh must've been a long flight​

She: Oh ya, it was..but I'm glad to be here. I love this place​

Me: Ya, you seem to be quite adventurous to travel and explore ​

She: Ya, finally far from everything and its so peaceful​

Me: (Flipping what she said...) Ya, more than external peace, its internal peace I guess​

She: True. I know what you're trying to say.​

Me: Ya, its good to be away from the ppl who judge you and push you to confinement of living your life a certain way​

She: Hahaha.. you're saying exactly how I'm feeling​

Me: Ya, cos I'm someone who is non-conforming myself and I hate when ppl want you to confirm to their way of living and I think its unfair.​

She: Totally! That's why I'm here to stay away from all that.​

Me: Perfect!​

Me: BTW, do you like coffee?​

She: I'm not a coffee person. I don't drink coffee.​

Me: So, what do you drink?​

She: Anything except coffee: Wine, Tea, beer etc​

Me: I mean coffee is an excuse but we can have tea. I don't drink coffee myself since I can't sleep if I drink coffee after 2 PM.​

She: Same​

Me: Lets get a tea then​

She: Ok, lets go​

Me: (We walk around 100 mtrs and there was a hotel and guessed they must have a bar and we went there)​

She: This is a beautiful place​

Me: Ya, its a nice place. So, shall we start with some tequila shots? haha​

She: haha..no..Lets look at the menu. I'll probably take a beer. you?​

Me: I don't like beer. I feel acidic drinking beer. Let me see.. I like hard liquor like Gin is my favourite or even tequila.​

*We talk a bit about alcohol and food while at the counter and then I ordered an espresso Martini*​

Me: Lets look for a good place to sit​

She: We can sit here​

Me: Nah.. it looks too formal, lets sit on the stools.​

She: Ya, perfect!​

Me: (I walk towards the stools)​

She: Do you mind if we sit outside? Lets take advantage of the sun​

Me: Sure, that'd be perfect (for seduction )​

*We walk outside and I sit and she sits across me*​

Me: I get up and sit perpendiclarly next to her saying, I rather like this view. (So that I can physically escalate)​

She: Ya, that view is good​

Me: Ya, that house looks so Vintage.​

She: Ya, that plants on the house are so beautiful​

​

I remembered @Will_V 's suggestion of better to sex-talk than to not. So, I went ahead this time.​

​

*I slowly segue into sex-talk: social > sexual > social > sexual > social > sexual....."​

​

Me: So, when you told me earlier about how society imposes a certain way of living, its exactly what I think​

She: Totally. I hate that. My friends say that I'm a bit rebellious but I don't care.​

Me: Exactly! That's how you have to live your life. True to yourself. I'm the same. I'm kind of rebellious myself and I don't like conforming to most things in society. Its hard to live that kind of life when you belong to society but there comes a time in life when you realise, "ah fuck it!" and you will do what you want to do and that feels very liberating.​

She: Yes, I'm the same but its actually hard to live like that in France cos most ppl are judgemental.​

Me: Really? It kinda surprises me that we're living in a modern age where we can do everything from our phones like shopping, banking, ordering food, taxi etc but certain things are still the same​

She: True.​

Me: (This is my easiest transition that I've been using quite effectively when I have to transition to sex-talk) Are you open-minded?​

She: It depends but I think I'm why?​

Me: (I don't care whether she says yes or no, I still continue with sex-talk always) Like there are double standards in society. Men have certain rules and women have different rules. Like if Men sleeps around a lot, it doesn't matter but if women sleep around, they are seen as slutty.​

She: (With eyes wide open) Exactly! How old are you btw?​

Me: (With a straight face) I'm 65.​

She: What? (I can't believe girls don't get sarcasm). I don't believe you.​

Me: No really​

She: Really?​

Me: Hahaha.. ​

She: I knew you were not 65. You're probably 27 or 28.​

Me: Hmmm.. close​

She: 29 or 30?​

Me: Ya, 30.​

She: But I was close​

Me: Ya, you were​

Me: BTW, I liked your eyes when you removed your glasses.​

She: Really?​

Me: Yeah, you have doe eyes.​

She: Thanks! What does that mean?​

Me: Like deer eyes, very big.​

She: Oh ok... I wear these glasses...blah..blah..blah...​

Me: So, have you always been this open-minded? (Qualification)​

She: Yes! I'm like an odd man out in the group of my friends. I like to live life the way I want and even if it means I have to be alone.​

Me: Perfect! I totally agree with that. Its all about finding the right kind of ppl. Yesterday my colleague said "Alcohol and your kind of ppl is heaven" and that is so true. You just need to find your kind of ppl. I'm lucky that I have such ppl in my life. I have a lot of acquaintances but I'm very selective about friends​

She: Ya, that's good.​

Me: So, when I spoke to you earlier at the park, I thought you were cute (She blushes) but when you talk about being free and open-minded, then I decided to invite you for a drink​

She: Hahaha... I'm like that... blah..blah..blah..blah​

Me: Look someone can be cute but if they're not open-minded, I just don't like such interactions. I want to associate myself with people who are open-minded and not judgemental (to reinforce that I'm not judgemental)​

She: Ya, that's good.​

Me: Its whether a girl or friends or colleagues or any kind of relationship, I want 3 things: Open-minded, non-judgemental and not approval seeking. Its a major red flag for me. I have left a lot of ppl who are like this. I think judgemental ppl are insecure cos they want to live life a certain way but they are too scared to do that and they are stuck in a dilemma all their life and waste their lives. You only live once.​

She: True but I believe in reincarnation​

Me: Interesting. Did you have any such experiences?​

She: Yes, a few times I have faced near death experiences and I survived...blah...blah...blah...blah​

Me: Show me your hand (physical escalation)​

She: Do you know pal-reading?​

Me: No, I just wanted to look at your fingers.​

She: What do you see?​

Me: I wanted to see if you're rebellious​

She: What do you think?​

Me: Yes, you are slightly. See this ring finger which is taller than fore-finger? It means you're rebellious.​

She: I think you're right. Show me your hand.​

*I show mine*​

She: Hahaha...that's crazy. You're like next level rebellious.​

Me: Haha... You know if fore-finger is longer than ring-finger then it means they are very confirmative of rules. People who think they have to conform to rules and society.​

Me: BTW, you know what fascinates about women?​

She: What?​

Me: Like they can become horny by just talking​

She: hahaha.. what do you mean?​

Me: Like for a man, you have to be physical to be horny but for a woman you trigger the right switches in her brain and she gets aroused. Its actually fascinating. I don't want to be too graphic but you have a lot of erogeneous zones but they all get activated only through brain.​

She: So true... hahaha​

Me: It fascinates me how they can control their arousal based on what goes into their mind.​

She: True..most guys don't understand and they just don't know how to talk to women. Unable to have a good conversation and switch on those switches in the brain.​

Me: Ya, I sometimes wonder how some guys don't get this at all. I have a few friends who think money, going to gym etc will get them girls, its so wrong.​

She: Ya they are a bonus​

Me: Exactly! you can have all that if you want it for yourself but not to get girls.​

She: Exactly! I have had a lot of one night stands and the sex is horrible. They don't know what they are doing and still I will be hungry after that. So, I'm like I'll be with myself, no worries... hahaha​

Me: I totally understand your situation. It must be very frustrating. ​

She: Ya, I find it so hard to orgasm?​

Me: What?​

She: Yes. I've been working on that​

Me: I don't think you are totally responsible for you unable to orgasm. Sex is like a partnership. You need to have both of them helping each other enjoy it. That's how it needs to be.​

She: Exactly!​

Me: In anything in life, you need to have cooperation in a project. For ex: Last year I started a business with a friend and he is very experienced in business and I'm a newbie. He would always tell me to do things and never tell me why. I used to get frustrated and always have arguments with him saying that you having experience doesn't mean anything. You need to let me know why we're doing something. Otherwise, I'll never learn about business and finally we ended the partnership cos I don't like to do things if there is no equal partnership in anything.​

She: That's good. You need to have a balance.​

Me: Ya, we always have things that don't go our way but we have to see how the other person is feeling. Like I was saying earlier, if a girl has to orgasm, you have to help her achieve it. Its a lot of mental thing when it comes to orgasming. She might be conscious of her body or she might be insecure etc and its the responsibility of the guy to understand her take it slowly in a step by step way and see if she is ready at every stage. I like to have sex more for passion and the sexual-tension than sex itself. Its not like "Bam Bam Thank you maam"​

She: Hahaha... Ya, most guys are like that. I'd be so disappointed but they'd have got what they wanted.​

Me: I find that very selfish and also I don't understand what pleasure guys get in having such sex​

She: No, for them its just another tick in their diary.​

Me: It amazes me sometimes.. don't want to be too descriptive but a girls body is so amazing. If a guy doesn't enjoy every part of her body, then what is the point of having sex? I ask the same to my friends who have sex when they're drunk. They don't remember anything the next day and what is the point of such sex?​

She: Maybe guys don't care but for a girl its different.​

Me: No, even for guys what is the point in having sex if they don't remember? If I have sex and look back, I should feel "Wow! that was awesome!"​

She: *Blushing*​

Me: I think guys just bulldoze without empathising how the girl feels​

She: Exactly. In French also we say Bulldozer and they do exactly like that.​

Me: BTW, why did you choose to do paragliding?​

She: As a kid I always wanted to fly but as an adult also, I think I couldn't overcome that desire. So, I got this opportunity blah...blah...blah...blah​

Me: Nice! BTW, I think if you like a person in every aspect, then it helps sex also cos if you know the girl more then you can be very communicative while having sex and its so important to know what she wants​

She: Yes btw, what are your hobbies..​

Me: I do quite a few things.. Dancing, drawing, yoga etc​

She: Wow! what kind of drawing?​

Me: I do abstract pencil sketching. Just depends on my mood. It's mostly a reflection of how I'm feeling.​

She: I also draw and I like art and went to art school and it was very stressful blah...blah...blah... So, I ended up studying publications which is also art.​

Me: Ya, that's good. You have to do what you like. Specially as a girl, you have so much emotions and if you have an artistic mind, you can express it very well. Its all because of your hormones that you have so many emotions. Its amazing that you can orgasm in 8 different ways. Do you know this?​

She: Yes but its hard for me​

Me: But men can only orgasm 3 ways​

She: I thought only 2​

Me: No, if they are gay, its 3. (I didn't know jack-shit about this but somehow made up something)​

She: Ok, that's interesting to know. I thought its 2.​

Me: BTW, although I like drawing, I like dancing a lot. I'm very passionate about that.​

She: Hahaha... I'm so bad at dancing​

Me: Like I was telling you earlier, everything comes down to a good company. If you're having a good partner to dance, its not really hard to dance. Its all about passion. Let's go to my place and we can dance. ​

She: Hahaha... no, I'm very conscious when it comes to dancing and I'm working on that to be not conscious what ppl think about me​

Me: There is a thin line between opportunities and boring life and that line is fear. On one side you have opportunities and on the other you have a life without any stimulation. If you're able to overcome that fear, you can enjoy a lot.​

She: I have always struggled when it comes to doing things that I'm uncomfortable to do and I'm working on that.​

Me: Its all about passion like I said earlier. I have never performed on the stage and I don't like to perform on the stage cos I'll lose the essence of dancing and it becomes very mechanical. I don't like to do things mechanically. I want to enjoy every bit of whatever I do. If you have a dance partner who can teach you slowly and not be judgemental of how you feel, then actually dancing is so enjoyable. You just have to submit. I like submissive (laughing). I mean you have to submit to your desires and then you'll know the other side of fear. Let's go and you'll love it.​

She: Hahaha.. not today. I want to get back.​

Me: Hmm ok.. what plans for the rest of the day?​

She: I want to go back and sleep. I need some rest.​

Me: You can rest at my place for sometime. Of course, I don't want you to be sleeping at my place (laughing) but you can just chill​

She: No, I have my place and I'll go sleep there but we can meet another time. Just write me and we can meet. I'm here until next Friday. I'll give you my WhatsApp or even number. (Offers her phone and gathers her things to leave)​

Me: Hmmm..ok. Anything will do, that is contactable.​

She: Yes, just write to me and we'll meet again.​

*We exchange contacts*​

Me: What's your name again?​

She: Coline.​

Me: Like this?​

She: You got my name perfectly​

Me: Ya, I know a couple of Colins​

She: that's so cool that you got my name correctly right away​

Me: Do you know my name?​

She: I told you I'm so bad with remembering some things and I forget names​

Me: Ah! come on..​

She: Ok, is it? blah...blah... blah...​

Me: No, give me your phone, will write my name.​

She: (Gives her phone)​

Me: (I write my name and then open WhatsApp quickly and type "You are very handsome " and sent it to me and she didn't notice that. She was busy talking about something)​

She: (Gets ready to leave)​

Me: Ya, I'll walk with you​

She: So, where do you live?​

Me: Come I'll show. (I walk around 50 mtrs). Do you see that red building?​

She: Yes​

Me: That's where I live.​

She: So, where are you going now?​

Me: To my car. I have to gather some things from the car.​

She: So, you drive around in the city?​

Me: No. I told you earlier that I went to meet a friend. I had left a few things in my car that I want to take home.​

*We walk another 5 mins talking about shit*​

She: Its so quiet here​

Me: Ya, cos its weekend and most ppl have gone out of town. BTW, we can go from here and you can take that street.​

She: Oh! no I will take this route. So, we're going to see each other right?​

Me: Yes.​

*Offers to hug her and kiss her and I do*​

​

*After 1 hr, I send 'Thanks' for the message that I had sent to her phone earlier*​

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*** Radio Silence ***​

​

Notes: This is the best sex-talk interaction I've ever had. I also physically escalated. I don't think I could've persisted anymore than I did. I remembered @Skills 's post and thought there is no way I could do anything anymore and gave up. I would've come across very needy. Since I persisted 3 times and she didn't oblige. I had a feeling of loss when walking her but her utter confidence in how she wanted to see me more than me seeing her made me have hopes but yet another failure. I just didn't know what else to do. I'm amazed when I read GC articles about being persistent and how you guys reiterate over and over again to persist and I don't get how you do it. I really want to know. If I persist anymore, it'll as good as begging. I'd be curious to know if there was any other way, I could've persisted. Tired of going through the same. I've had at least 5 of these in different forms after the last lay.​

I have left out a lot of things that I thought was not important and have forgotten also.​

​

One more wild card is when you approach a girl and have a short conversation. She is blushing, attracted and all that but she is waiting to leave. So, you can't do much in such situations.​

​

Another wild card, sometimes you'll not know how much time you have with a girl. Although I ask her what she is doing later and she says no, she'll come up with something nearing the end of the date.​

​

I may add more wild cards, that I've come across recently if I remember.​

​

I'm caught in a catch-22 situation. Don't know how to get out of this.​

​

tl;dr: It took me 3+ hrs to write this and you may take 10mins to read it. So, please read the whole thing and there is no tl;dr ​

​

 

[Will_V]

@Shawn well done on getting some fun spontaneous interactions going, your banter is generally good and the first part of your interactions solid, but I think you have some issues with the escalation and pulling, and frame control at the end of dates, that are tripping you up.

I'll reiterate that I think sex talk and escalation on any date is necessary and almost always a good thing. It's hard as hell to turn around a woman who has categorized you as platonic or 'nice guy'. But with that comes the risk of having the bubble burst afterward.

I still think it's almost impossible to go too far with sexualization if you have very good frame control and calibration, but if you don't, you can definitely mess things up.

ME: I like Yoga but I'm very passionate about dancing..

ME: In fact I do everything passionately (deep eye contact. She knew what I was talking about)​

SHE: What are you doing now?​

This is a sign of interest based on your very good, simple and straightforward use of sexualization here.

ME: I work from home. Just came out for lunch and I have a meeting soon that I need to get back to.​

SHE: Ok, we should catchup sometime before we leave (Shit test?)​

Absolutely NOT a shit test. She's interested.

ME: (Pushing it asap) Yes, what are you doing today evening? (Shit test failed!)​

SHE: I travelled today and I need sleep so much. I just need to sleep a lot.​

OK so she raised an objection, but again, it's NOT a shit test. An objection is just that, an objection. In this case you did not handle it very well.

ME: Ya but you'd be sleeping at night. I asked about evening​

SHE: Ya but I want to sleep early since the time difference is affecting me.​

Not a good way to handle an objection. You countered immediately with a logical argument (about when exactly she would sleep) without actually selling the idea of what you would be doing together, creating anticipation, and getting her to agree conceptually first.

When she said "I travelled today and I need sleep so much. I just need to sleep a lot." personally I would say something like:

"Yeah I know the feeling .. we should hang out sometime though, I have a great place with a good view etc etc"

First do a soft close - get her to agree to the idea of going to your place and hanging out, then switch gears and keep seducing/escalating, and then later you can come back with a good frame of why she'd enjoy coming back today and still get rest.

Some ppl come and sit next to us.

I'm guessing there was a bit of awkward silence or something here and you probably felt self conscious getting 'rejected', which probably accelerated the downward spiral. Don't let that happen, just pull back and go back to the stuff that's working.

SHE: Do you want to give your number and we can see?​

ME: Ya, lets go for a quick walk. I'll show you something nice. (Just to create a time-bridge scenario and also to change the topic from non-compliance)​

Very good move.

SHE: Sure! lets go​

ME: I don't have a lot of time since I have this meeting in 20 mins. So, lets briefly go there.​

SHE: Yep! Lets go​

ME: Walked another 5 mins and took her to another place.​

SHE: Wow! this is beautiful​

ME: So, how long are you here you said?​

SHE: I'm going to leave the day after tomorrow.​

ME: (With some drama...keeping hand on my heart) Oh I'll miss you Kira.. We should meet tonight. (Second attempt)​

SHE: Hmm..no, I'm so tired and I don't think I have the energy to do anything (She implied sex)​

Again, not good. Too dramatic, slightly needy, blunt. Allowing her to get the idea that all you want was sex, but without actually turning her on.

Better would have been something like "OK I understand, I want to show you something blah blah, I live over there, let's go real quick and then I'll let you sleep off your travels"

Plausible deniability, an offer of something fun/interesting, giving her a way to agree without having to change her mind about being tired etc.

ME: (I didn't want to plough anymore..,) Ya, I think you're right, we should meet when you have slept well and are fully energetic (Pacing)​

ME: Lets meet tomorrow evening.​

SHE: Ok​

ME: (Just creating a false scenario to see her reaction to meet today) Oh, tomorrow I have to meet someone.​

SHE: (Doesn't react)​

This is not good, you can see she's dog-tired and has already given some friction, she probably saw through this as a lame attempt to apply pressure. It probably cemented the ghosting.

Now a very big thing you failed to do here was to set up the next date (which you cockblocked yourself from doing with the lame attempt to apply pressure and be ambiguous).

At this point you should have been nailing the exact time, place and circumstance of the next date, keeping a playful and sexual vibe, and starting to give her the impression that she was on a one-way street to seeing you again and having fun times, creating anticipation about the future. Instead she walked away with the whole thing busted and no clear way forward, which translates to ghosting.

After 30 mins... Over text...​

​

Me: Shawn ​

​

***Radio Silence***​

Texting just your name at this point is not good, again at the very least you should have reiterated that you enjoyed the time you spent and again, focused on the next date, which should have been planned out completely by now.

Note: One thing I did miss doing was, a lot of physical escalation. I just shook hands and tickled her once for saying something cheeky. Doing verbal escalation these days, I think I'm forgetting physical escalation.

Very much so. Physical escalation is more important than verbal escalation. This was another thing that reinforced her lack of connection with you after the fact which resulted in ghosting.

...

So the next date is great most of the way through, moving her, getting the insta-date, sex talk etc. But the pull was not good.

​

Me: Like I was telling you earlier, everything comes down to a good company. If you're having a good partner to dance, its not really hard to dance. Its all about passion. Let's go to my place and we can dance. ​

She: Hahaha... no, I'm very conscious when it comes to dancing and I'm working on that to be not conscious what ppl think about me​

Waaay too dramatic way of pulling, now you've combined two pressurized situations for her: coming back to a strangers place, and demonstrating her lack of dancing skills. Not a good combination.

Inviting a girl over is simply a question of suggesting she come over for some basic non-sexual reason when you can tell she's interested and turned on, you're trying to sell the goods and close the deal at the same time.

In this case, what I think would have been a better idea is to go from sex talk --> physical escalation --> "let's go and have drinks at mine, I've got a great place with a good view blah blah". Something simple, easy to agree to, and not fancy, dramatic and confusing.

Instead, you used a lot of sex talk, didn't use it to transition to physically escalate but instead tried to tie it directly, in a dramatic way, with her coming over and learning how to be passionate. That's way too dramatic and over the top.

Me: There is a thin line between opportunities and boring life and that line is fear. On one side you have opportunities and on the other you have a life without any stimulation. If you're able to overcome that fear, you can enjoy a lot.​

She: I have always struggled when it comes to doing things that I'm uncomfortable to do and I'm working on that.​

Me: Its all about passion like I said earlier. I have never performed on the stage and I don't like to perform on the stage cos I'll lose the essence of dancing and it becomes very mechanical. I don't like to do things mechanically. I want to enjoy every bit of whatever I do. If you have a dance partner who can teach you slowly and not be judgemental of how you feel, then actually dancing is so enjoyable. You just have to submit. I like submissive (laughing). I mean you have to submit to your desires and then you'll know the other side of fear. Let's go and you'll love it.​

She: Hahaha.. not today. I want to get back.​

Bulldozing here. Again too dramatic, too overtly sexual, too much selling the idea. You basically framed coming over to your place as being her being submissive and letting her desires take over which is a pretty overwhelming way to frame things.

You want it to be as simple and straightforward for her to come over - see my painting, watch a movie, have a drink etc. The sex talk and physical escalation is to arouse her and make her desire intimacy, but the pull itself is as small a deal as possible, like an afterthought. It's not some kind of premiere of your new 'dancing with the stars' show with fireworks.

A bit of fractionation, physical escalation, and saying casually "hey let's have a drink at mine, I've got a selection of blah blah" would have been a much easier thing for her to agree to.

Me: Hmm ok.. what plans for the rest of the day?​

She: I want to go back and sleep. I need some rest.​

Me: You can rest at my place for sometime. Of course, I don't want you to be sleeping at my place (laughing) but you can just chill​

She: No, I have my place and I'll go sleep there but we can meet another time. Just write me and we can meet. I'm here until next Friday. I'll give you my WhatsApp or even number. (Offers her phone and gathers her things to leave)​

Pushy, appealing to logic and not emotions, not sensing danger and pulling back and building things up again. This forces her to leave and end the interaction to release the pressure, even though it's clear she likes you.

​

She: So, where do you live?​

Me: Come I'll show. (I walk around 50 mtrs). Do you see that red building?​

She: Yes​

Me: That's where I live.​

She: So, where are you going now?​

Should have found some way to get her to come over, some lame excuse like the view, since she probably didn't realize you lived so close and it was so easy for her to come over.

That's why it's important to soft close early in the date and warm her to the idea slowly, so she can turn it over in her mind and you can handle her objections while continuing to seduce and escalate.

But still, when you see an opportunity that's easy for her to agree to, give it a shot.

She: Oh! no I will take this route. So, we're going to see each other right?​

Me: Yes.​

*Offers to hug her and kiss her and I do*​

​

*After 1 hr, I send 'Thanks' for the message that I had sent to her phone earlier*​

​

*** Radio Silence ***​

Again, you did not set up the next date! The bubble is burst, no way forward, and texting is not a good medium to start trying to close something from scratch. Dudo at this point.

I will reiterate the main points I have made:

• Don't immediately push or try to logically argue when you get non compliance, instead pull back and show understanding, rebuild rapport, and find something she can agree to
• Soft close at a high point on the date, in a very simple, easy-to-agree-to and non specific frame like "we should hang at mine sometime, I've got blah blah" - see how she reacts and begin to handle her objections without boxing yourself into a yes/no corner.
• Don't go for the pull in a dramatic way, just bring it up in a simple, casual way with plausible deniability (see view, have drinks, watch movie, it doesn't matter), it's really just a logistical thing at that point, you aren't selling her on it (you already did that with escalation)
• If you can't pull, set up the second date in detail, create anticipation for it, keep things lighthearted and playful and show her how much you like spending time with her. Don't leave her with the feeling she opened up and got intimate with a stranger and then things weirdly fizzled out.

Things to remember:

• Physically escalate, get her used to your touch, sex talk is just a way to segue into physicality, only very very good guys can seduce with verbals only
• Tease her and make jokes when you feel like you've lost frame
• Own the date and her, don't act like you're selling something, act like she's your girl and you're having fun with her the whole way through

 

[Will_V]

Btw I went on a date today, my logistics are at 0 right now (been living on my boat and it's had to be moved out the middle of nowhere) and I'm apartment hunting, so the chances of pulling were low, but this is what I did.

(I met this girl a few days ago doing daygame, organized a date and didn't do any fancy bs like I sometimes feel compelled to do).

So I met her and took her to Nandos, the date started off a bit lame (she was shy and still learning english) but I quickly sexualized things a lot, talked about having adventures, good and bad sex, starting touching her as I talked and physically escalating, started ran my hands up and down her back, even played around with the top of her panties lol, talked about how I liked her long hair while gently pulling it. I basically went two steps forward and one back from the get go, many times she gently pulled away, I'd laugh, rebuild rapport, and then later go back to what I was doing.

At one point I suggested we go for a walk, I tried to pull to her place but turns out she lives in a dorm (she said 'there's an italian under my bed' which cracked me up, he was on the bottom bunk). Anyway I could tell I wasn't going to pull but I told her "I'll invite you over when I get my apartment, we'll celebrate ok" which she agrees enthusiastically. So a soft close here.

I continued being physical, tickled the back of her neck and asked her where she likes it when guys touch her. She tells me something about her hair and then asks me where I like it. I say "I like it when a girl caresses me here" pointing to my midsection so she puts her hand there (fortunately I go to the gym) and I go "also down there" and we both laugh. So I'm just playing around with her like she's silly and cute and I don't care.

So we sit in a nice park, she talks about getting away from a lifestyle she didn't really like in Korea (that's where she's from) and I talk about how everyone needs a time in their life where they do whatever they want, I told her I spent a year in brazil doing random shit and banging a lot of brazilian girls, how I live life the way I want to now and don't do the typical 9-5 bs. She starts calling me a 'badass' lol and how I'm very confident and I tell her "I've earned my confidence" which she liked. She won't turn her head to kiss but leans in when I kiss her neck and I grab her hair a little bit and stuff like that, just treating her like she's already mine and I'm enjoying her.

Toward the end as we walked back to the city center I grabbed her round the waist, pulled her in and told her again that "I will invite you over to my new apartment to celebrate ok" and she agrees again and starts asking me all about that, when it's going to happen, I just tell her 'very soon'.

After she's gone I text:

Me: Had fun hanging out with u
Her: Yeah, you too

Now I won't guarantee that she'll come over when I sort the apartment, but there's no pressure and weird vibes, I just played with her the whole time, gave her a good positive experience with me that included a lot of physicality, and seeded the idea of her coming over in a low-pressure way.

I think that's the way to play these things, never make it a big deal, just focus on having a good fun shared experience - the way I think of it is spending time with her the way I would if I had just banged her. Then focus on logistics and don't do anything too strange or dramatic.

 

[Skills]

I agree with will_v diagnosis, i do everything possible to get the lay, i do sex talk, physical escalation... pull back and try multiple times... if is not there instead of plowing, i follow up.... simple and have high conversion rate, but i am pretty good at texting.... big but i need to address in that post if on isolation i plow no matter if is a million times and i pyco, so if at closing location all the way and plowing, persistance all the way... however, as i got older i dont consider car, bathroom etc, closing locations as i used to when younger, i want comfortable sex in a bed, but this is older skills...again, my disagreement with wii_v on that post, he said if you do second gen and you do not have sex odds go down, i have a strong conversion rate that disagree with that statement and my now main..

 

[Calibration]

@Shawn well done on getting some fun spontaneous interactions going, your banter is generally good and the first part of your interactions solid, but I think you have some issues with the escalation and pulling, and frame control at the end of dates, that are tripping you up.

I'll reiterate that I think sex talk and escalation on any date is necessary and almost always a good thing. It's hard as hell to turn around a woman who has categorized you as platonic or 'nice guy'. But with that comes the risk of having the bubble burst afterward.

I still think it's almost impossible to go too far with sexualization if you have very good frame control and calibration, but if you don't, you can definitely mess things up.



This is a sign of interest based on your very good, simple and straightforward use of sexualization here.



Absolutely NOT a shit test. She's interested.



OK so she raised an objection, but again, it's NOT a shit test. An objection is just that, an objection. In this case you did not handle it very well.



Not a good way to handle an objection. You countered immediately with a logical argument (about when exactly she would sleep) without actually selling the idea of what you would be doing together, creating anticipation, and getting her to agree conceptually first.

When she said "I travelled today and I need sleep so much. I just need to sleep a lot." personally I would say something like:

"Yeah I know the feeling .. we should hang out sometime though, I have a great place with a good view etc etc"

First do a soft close - get her to agree to the idea of going to your place and hanging out, then switch gears and keep seducing/escalating, and then later you can come back with a good frame of why she'd enjoy coming back today and still get rest.



I'm guessing there was a bit of awkward silence or something here and you probably felt self conscious getting 'rejected', which probably accelerated the downward spiral. Don't let that happen, just pull back and go back to the stuff that's working.



Very good move.



Again, not good. Too dramatic, slightly needy, blunt. Allowing her to get the idea that all you want was sex, but without actually turning her on.

Better would have been something like "OK I understand, I want to show you something blah blah, I live over there, let's go real quick and then I'll let you sleep off your travels"

Plausible deniability, an offer of something fun/interesting, giving her a way to agree without having to change her mind about being tired etc.



This is not good, you can see she's dog-tired and has already given some friction, she probably saw through this as a lame attempt to apply pressure. It probably cemented the ghosting.

Now a very big thing you failed to do here was to set up the next date (which you cockblocked yourself from doing with the lame attempt to apply pressure and be ambiguous).

At this point you should have been nailing the exact time, place and circumstance of the next date, keeping a playful and sexual vibe, and starting to give her the impression that she was on a one-way street to seeing you again and having fun times, creating anticipation about the future. Instead she walked away with the whole thing busted and no clear way forward, which translates to ghosting.



Texting just your name at this point is not good, again at the very least you should have reiterated that you enjoyed the time you spent and again, focused on the next date, which should have been planned out completely by now.



Very much so. Physical escalation is more important than verbal escalation. This was another thing that reinforced her lack of connection with you after the fact which resulted in ghosting.

...

So the next date is great most of the way through, moving her, getting the insta-date, sex talk etc. But the pull was not good.



Waaay too dramatic way of pulling, now you've combined two pressurized situations for her: coming back to a strangers place, and demonstrating her lack of dancing skills. Not a good combination.

Inviting a girl over is simply a question of suggesting she come over for some basic non-sexual reason when you can tell she's interested and turned on, you're trying to sell the goods and close the deal at the same time.

In this case, what I think would have been a better idea is to go from sex talk --> physical escalation --> "let's go and have drinks at mine, I've got a great place with a good view blah blah". Something simple, easy to agree to, and not fancy, dramatic and confusing.

Instead, you used a lot of sex talk, didn't use it to transition to physically escalate but instead tried to tie it directly, in a dramatic way, with her coming over and learning how to be passionate. That's way too dramatic and over the top.



Bulldozing here. Again too dramatic, too overtly sexual, too much selling the idea. You basically framed coming over to your place as being her being submissive and letting her desires take over which is a pretty overwhelming way to frame things.

You want it to be as simple and straightforward for her to come over - see my painting, watch a movie, have a drink etc. The sex talk and physical escalation is to arouse her and make her desire intimacy, but the pull itself is as small a deal as possible, like an afterthought. It's not some kind of premiere of your new 'dancing with the stars' show with fireworks.

A bit of fractionation, physical escalation, and saying casually "hey let's have a drink at mine, I've got a selection of blah blah" would have been a much easier thing for her to agree to.



Pushy, appealing to logic and not emotions, not sensing danger and pulling back and building things up again. This forces her to leave and end the interaction to release the pressure, even though it's clear she likes you.



Should have found some way to get her to come over, some lame excuse like the view, since she probably didn't realize you lived so close and it was so easy for her to come over.

That's why it's important to soft close early in the date and warm her to the idea slowly, so she can turn it over in her mind and you can handle her objections while continuing to seduce and escalate.

But still, when you see an opportunity that's easy for her to agree to, give it a shot.



Again, you did not set up the next date! The bubble is burst, no way forward, and texting is not a good medium to start trying to close something from scratch. Dudo at this point.

I will reiterate the main points I have made:

• Don't immediately push or try to logically argue when you get non compliance, instead pull back and show understanding, rebuild rapport, and find something she can agree to
• Soft close at a high point on the date, in a very simple, easy-to-agree-to and non specific frame like "we should hang at mine sometime, I've got blah blah" - see how she reacts and begin to handle her objections without boxing yourself into a yes/no corner.
• Don't go for the pull in a dramatic way, just bring it up in a simple, casual way with plausible deniability (see view, have drinks, watch movie, it doesn't matter), it's really just a logistical thing at that point, you aren't selling her on it (you already did that with escalation)
• If you can't pull, set up the second date in detail, create anticipation for it, keep things lighthearted and playful and show her how much you like spending time with her. Don't leave her with the feeling she opened up and got intimate with a stranger and then things weirdly fizzled out.

Things to remember:

• Physically escalate, get her used to your touch, sex talk is just a way to segue into physicality, only very very good guys can seduce with verbals only
• Tease her and make jokes when you feel like you've lost frame
• Own the date and her, don't act like you're selling something, act like she's your girl and you're having fun with her the whole way through

Ok, one thing I'm failing to understand is, why'd she disagree to come over if all her objections are clear. I recalled that I mentally ran a checklist of things before I tried pulling home:
* Is she attracted to me? - YES
* Does she think I'm judgemental? - NO
* Is she horny? -YES
* Does she have ASD? -NO
* Does she care about her friends or others hooking up with me? -NO. I met her through cold approach
* Is she aware why I'm inviting her home? -YES. We discussed about sex at length
* Is it good enough plausible deniability? -YES

So, if all the above are answered, IMO "any" plausible deniability should be fine. Doesn't she really know that I'm not inviting her over only to dance? If she's attracted, will she not make it easy for me to lead?

After I thought about these things, I thought if she still doesn't want to come with me, it means she's really not ready or have some other objections which is not me or I can't address them. So, she's genuinely unable to come with me and then I let it go. Could you explain me a rationale behind why she'd still be hesitant?
One thing I can think of is, she's doubting my value. She maybe thinking, is he someone I'm sleeping with without thinking enough? Am I giving into the temptation? But why'd she think about this, if she's sufficiently seduced? Also, if she has anymore objections, she'll get those addressed over text if she doesn't ghost me. All the girls I've been with have made it easy for me once they're sufficiently convinced. If I understand the rationale behind this, I think it's easy for me to persist. How can I continue to persist with whatever reason without coming across needy? I somehow have this high resistance and fear of coming across needy and I take the safe route.

Btw, should I still double text her? What? And when?

I agree with will_v diagnosis, i do everything possible to get the lay, i do sex talk, physical escalation... pull back and try multiple times... if is not there instead of plowing, i follow up.... simple and have high conversion rate, but i am pretty good at texting.... big but i need to address in that post if on isolation i plow no matter if is a million times and i pyco, so if at closing location all the way and plowing, persistance all the way... however, as i got older i dont consider car, bathroom etc, closing locations as i used to when younger, i want comfortable sex in a bed, but this is older skills...again, my disagreement with wii_v on that post, he said if you do second gen and you do not have sex odds go down, i have a strong conversion rate that disagree with that statement and my now main..

You mentioned in your other post also that with good text game, you can still pull. I sent the same text that you suggest. Sending a text from her phone and responding to that later. If you advocate taking this approach, what else could've I done for her not to ghost?

Same question again: Should I double text? When? And what?

Thanks @Will_V and @Skills for taking the time to review. I really appreciate your help.

 

[Skills]

Ok, one thing I'm failing to understand is, why'd she disagree to come over if all her objections are clear. I recalled that I mentally ran a checklist of things before I tried pulling home:
* Is she attracted to me? - YES
* Does she think I'm judgemental? - NO
* Is she horny? -YES
* Does she have ASD? -NO
* Does she care about her friends or others hooking up with me? -NO. I met her through cold approach
* Is she aware why I'm inviting her home? -YES. We discussed about sex at length
* Is it good enough plausible deniability? -YES

So, if all the above are answered, IMO "any" plausible deniability should be fine. Doesn't she really know that I'm not inviting her over only to dance? If she's attracted, will she not make it easy for me to lead?

After I thought about these things, I thought if she still doesn't want to come with me, it means she's really not ready or have some other objections which is not me or I can't address them. So, she's genuinely unable to come with me and then I let it go. Could you explain me a rationale behind why she'd still be hesitant?
One thing I can think of is, she's doubting my value. She maybe thinking, is he someone I'm sleeping with without thinking enough? Am I giving into the temptation? But why'd she think about this, if she's sufficiently seduced? Also, if she has anymore objections, she'll get those addressed over text if she doesn't ghost me. All the girls I've been with have made it easy for me once they're sufficiently convinced. If I understand the rationale behind this, I think it's easy for me to persist. How can I continue to persist with whatever reason without coming across needy? I somehow have this high resistance and fear of coming across needy and I take the safe route.

Btw, should I still double text her? What? And when?


You mentioned in your other post also that with good text game, you can still pull. I sent the same text that you suggest. Sending a text from her phone and responding to that later. If you advocate taking this approach, what else could've I done for her not to ghost?

Same question again: Should I double text? When? And what?

Thanks @Will_V and @Skills for taking the time to review. I really appreciate your help.

Dude girl number 2 wanted to be pulled and you miss your window, just read that...you dance around too much instead of pulling so my post does not apply in these cases

 

[Calibration]

Same question again: Should I double text? When? And what?

Hmm.. What about this?

 

[Skills]

Hmm.. What about this?

Also shawn no more block of text create a journal and try to get to the point.. . Go into a convo thread related to the meet if you want to text her...


Ps. Pay attention to your intuation. "I play it safe and i am scare to come across needy"...

 

[Will_V]

Ok, one thing I'm failing to understand is, why'd she disagree to come over if all her objections are clear. I recalled that I mentally ran a checklist of things before I tried pulling home:
* Is she attracted to me? - YES
* Does she think I'm judgemental? - NO
* Is she horny? -YES
* Does she have ASD? -NO
* Does she care about her friends or others hooking up with me? -NO. I met her through cold approach
* Is she aware why I'm inviting her home? -YES. We discussed about sex at length
* Is it good enough plausible deniability? -YES

So, if all the above are answered, IMO "any" plausible deniability should be fine. Doesn't she really know that I'm not inviting her over only to dance? If she's attracted, will she not make it easy for me to lead?

After I thought about these things, I thought if she still doesn't want to come with me, it means she's really not ready or have some other objections which is not me or I can't address them. So, she's genuinely unable to come with me and then I let it go. Could you explain me a rationale behind why she'd still be hesitant?
One thing I can think of is, she's doubting my value. She maybe thinking, is he someone I'm sleeping with without thinking enough? Am I giving into the temptation? But why'd she think about this, if she's sufficiently seduced? Also, if she has anymore objections, she'll get those addressed over text if she doesn't ghost me. All the girls I've been with have made it easy for me once they're sufficiently convinced. If I understand the rationale behind this, I think it's easy for me to persist. How can I continue to persist with whatever reason without coming across needy? I somehow have this high resistance and fear of coming across needy and I take the safe route.

Btw, should I still double text her? What? And when?


You mentioned in your other post also that with good text game, you can still pull. I sent the same text that you suggest. Sending a text from her phone and responding to that later. If you advocate taking this approach, what else could've I done for her not to ghost?

Same question again: Should I double text? When? And what?

Thanks @Will_V and @Skills for taking the time to review. I really appreciate your help.

This checklist you mentioned, it's logical thinking. That's not how women think.

You will almost always get some kind of objection, that's why the early soft close is so important, so you can uncover them and handle them while continuing to escalate.

How you handle objections is very important for a woman, it demonstrates the extent to which she can trust your frame and leadership. Guys will often get uncomfortable, panicky, needy, aggressive or too agreeable when presented with an objection, showing that they aren't confident in their frame, and signalling that the frame might change later, which puts her at risk.

Countering objections is often just a question of verbally showing understanding, continuing to escalate, and trying again shortly after with an adjustment on frame based on what she said the first time.

Think of it the same way as physical escalation: you might touch her back and she pulls away and looks at you with alarm, you just laugh, pull your hand back but don't move away, keep talking, later you touch her arm, ok she's cool with that, you mention something about her hair and touch her hair, she tenses up a bit, you just keep touching until she leans away a bit, laugh, keep talking, then do it again .. over time she just gets used to the idea and lets you touch her back. Why did she not accept it the first time? Who knows, who cares, you figured it out anyway.

Don't get stuck in a mental model of how you expect her to behave, just move things along and deal with stuff as they appear.

 

[Calibration]

This checklist you mentioned, it's logical thinking. That's not how women think.

You will almost always get some kind of objection, that's why the early soft close is so important, so you can uncover them and handle them while continuing to escalate.

How you handle objections is very important for a woman, it demonstrates the extent to which she can trust your frame and leadership. Guys will often get uncomfortable, panicky, needy, aggressive or too agreeable when presented with an objection, showing that they aren't confident in their frame, and signalling that the frame might change later, which puts her at risk.

Countering objections is often just a question of verbally showing understanding, continuing to escalate, and trying again shortly after with an adjustment on frame based on what she said the first time.

Think of it the same way as physical escalation: you might touch her back and she pulls away and looks at you with alarm, you just laugh, pull your hand back but don't move away, keep talking, later you touch her arm, ok she's cool with that, you mention something about her hair and touch her hair, she tenses up a bit, you just keep touching until she leans away a bit, laugh, keep talking, then do it again .. over time she just gets used to the idea and lets you touch her back. Why did she not accept it the first time? Who knows, who cares, you figured it out anyway.

Don't get stuck in a mental model of how you expect her to behave, just move things along and deal with stuff as they appear.

Thanks. That was very insightful, it now makes sense to me. Its some kind of subconscious shit-test I think. She is perhaps seeing how I manoeuvre through her objections and get what I want without coming across needy and being suave displaying social finesse. However, I still am not sure how to be persistent. Looking back, I have lost a lot of girls without being persistent and not sure what I could've done. If a girl is getting ready to leave, there is not much I can do. This is the most common scenario I've come across. She'd say, I'll meet you another time and gets up and starts leaving. I remember I got pissed off with a girl when she did that and told her that she was being rude. I said, you can leave but you're leaving before I've finished talking. Anyway, this makes me wonder if all guys face so many shit tests? The guy Alex from Playing with Fire channel on Youtube, he addresses all the objections logically, asking the girl "What really is your concern? etc" and most girls give a logical answer and he addresses them. I thought that's how it works.

On one hand, there are guys who hook up a lot through apps without any drama and then there are others like us doing cold-approach who have to go through a series of shit-tests just for the pussy. In fact it must be easier for cold-approaching guys since they display massive confidence instead of swiping on the screen sitting on the toilet seat. Seems unfair. If girls like sex and if they shit-test every guy like this, who'd they fuck? Assuming she doesn't shit-test chads, how many chads are there on this planet to fuck all the girls? I understand some level of shit-test is evolutionary but if guys have to jump through a lot of hooves to get to her pussy, makes me wonder if its even worth it? The last couple of girls I laid did shit-test in the beginning but they made it easier as things went ahead but some girls are just too much IMO and makes me lose attraction by the time I get to her pussy and she was not even a 8, 9 or 10. Ironically the last couple of girls were way hotter than this girl. I don't generally like to complain but sometimes it gets to everyone at some point, I think.

Anyway, these are some of the objections I've faced when I've tried to bounce and some girls have left after coming home. How'd you approach these scenarios?
1. Says she is tired and wants to go back and sleep (This is the most common scenario I've had. You just can't address this rationally at all)
2. She has to wake up early in the morning for work or to go somewhere
3. She just doesn't "feel it"
4. She thinks its too early for sex
5. She has had bad experiences with guys (One girl even started crying remembering some guy who had abused her and I was shit-scared and sent her off safely)
6. There was one girl who listed me what she wants if I have to fuck her (I just thought she was crazy and sent her off without saying a word)
7. Sometimes they don't leave but they won't comply. For ex: they won't allow you to escalate, they'll just want to talk. (This has happened a few times and one girl told me that I was pissing her off by not listening to what she is saying. I got pissed off and sent her away)
8. Remember a girl who said I was mistaken to think that she was easy. She said, just cos I'm being funny and friendly doesn't mean I'll have sex with you. She said it with a straight face and I didn't know what to say.

 

[Will_V]

Thanks. That was very insightful, it now makes sense to me. Its some kind of subconscious shit-test I think. She is perhaps seeing how I manoeuvre through her objections and get what I want without coming across needy and being suave displaying social finesse.

Not exactly. It's not really about her trying to make you 'perform' for her, but simply trying to transfer the agency of choice onto you, so that she is less responsible for anything that happens.

It is also simply about inertia and uncertainty. You are getting insta-dates and trying to pull quite fast, for most girls (except maybe in clubs) they are not in this situation very often at all, that means that the prospect of going back raises all kinds of anxieties and questions that she is unable to answer quickly for herself, hence she starts verbalising anything and everything that could be an issue.

It's the same as if you are a lazy bum who lies in bed all day, then someone comes and invites you to the gym. You might really want to get jacked, but you are going to start bringing out all sorts of random reasons why it can't happen because you cannot shift your internal frame fast enough (or at all) to a point where you feel secure enough to face the uncertainty of what you will encounter, and the prospect of facing some negative outcome such as being judged as weak.

Especially now that I see how you try to look at things from the woman's perspective as a logical list of checkboxes, it seems likely that you are failing to provide enough comfort, and this is perhaps why you are able to sexualize but find it hard to pull. Does she see you as being on the 'same team' or as someone wanting something from her? Do you sometimes show softness and vulnerability or just intensity and rigid focus? Do you sometimes make jokes and moves that are spontaneous and for your own self-expression and not designed to elicit a specific reaction?

However, I still am not sure how to be persistent. Looking back, I have lost a lot of girls without being persistent and not sure what I could've done. If a girl is getting ready to leave, there is not much I can do. This is the most common scenario I've come across. She'd say, I'll meet you another time and gets up and starts leaving.

This sounds like she feels a disconnect or uncertainty that she cannot pinpoint, and needs to 'regroup' alone to figure it out.

Persistence is about showing her enough consideration to buy yourself time to properly analyze the problem, being perceptive enough to deduce what is really bothering her, and then dealing with it in as casual and easygoing way as possible.

I remember I got pissed off with a girl when she did that and told her that she was being rude. I said, you can leave but you're leaving before I've finished talking. Anyway, this makes me wonder if all guys face so many shit tests? The guy Alex from Playing with Fire channel on Youtube, he addresses all the objections logically, asking the girl "What really is your concern? etc" and most girls give a logical answer and he addresses them. I thought that's how it works.

I don't do online stuff (which I believe is Alex's main thing) but the way I do it in person is a bit different, I try to understand the logical basis for her non-compliance while finding a way to re-frame that's not direct. I like to soothe her with agreement and then re-frame later on. The reason being that often you will not know immediately the true reason why she is objecting, but it will become more obvious as it is brought to the forefront of her mind. If you just immediately counter or try to put her on the spot you could end up aiming at the wrong target. And as cheesy as it sounds, the words 'I understand' even if you haven't got a clue is truly the most soothing thing a woman can hear.

On one hand, there are guys who hook up a lot through apps without any drama and then there are others like us doing cold-approach who have to go through a series of shit-tests just for the pussy.

I don't look at it like that at all. I don't do apps so I don't compare it whatsoever. If a guy can pull right away from daygame with no objections that's one thing, but getting dtf girls on tinder is a different story.

I've been watching a lot of stuff from John Anthony (and using his opener to good effect lol) and one thing I've taken to heart is to stop thinking of resistance as 'shit-tests'. It is simply non-compliance. The term 'shit test' has a negative, bitter, competitive connotation but it is really a defensive move on her part, a failure on your part to properly pull her into your frame and handle objections, resulting in her not complying with what you want her to do.

In fact it must be easier for cold-approaching guys since they display massive confidence instead of swiping on the screen sitting on the toilet seat. Seems unfair. If girls like sex and if they shit-test every guy like this, who'd they fuck? Assuming she doesn't shit-test chads, how many chads are there on this planet to fuck all the girls? I understand some level of shit-test is evolutionary but if guys have to jump through a lot of hooves to get to her pussy, makes me wonder if its even worth it? The last couple of girls I laid did shit-test in the beginning but they made it easier as things went ahead but some girls are just too much IMO and makes me lose attraction by the time I get to her pussy and she was not even a 8, 9 or 10. Ironically the last couple of girls were way hotter than this girl. I don't generally like to complain but sometimes it gets to everyone at some point, I think.

Perhaps your impatience and lack of immersion and enjoyment is causing a lack of comfort for her?

Anyway, these are some of the objections I've faced when I've tried to bounce and some girls have left after coming home. How'd you approach these scenarios?
1. Says she is tired and wants to go back and sleep (This is the most common scenario I've had. You just can't address this rationally at all)
2. She has to wake up early in the morning for work or to go somewhere
3. She just doesn't "feel it"
4. She thinks its too early for sex
5. She has had bad experiences with guys (One girl even started crying remembering some guy who had abused her and I was shit-scared and sent her off safely)
6. There was one girl who listed me what she wants if I have to fuck her (I just thought she was crazy and sent her off without saying a word)
7. Sometimes they don't leave but they won't comply. For ex: they won't allow you to escalate, they'll just want to talk. (This has happened a few times and one girl told me that I was pissing her off by not listening to what she is saying. I got pissed off and sent her away)
8. Remember a girl who said I was mistaken to think that she was easy. She said, just cos I'm being funny and friendly doesn't mean I'll have sex with you. She said it with a straight face and I didn't know what to say.

All of these may be literal or just a cover for some other 'real' objection. Most of them are likely to be a combination of not being turned on enough and not being comfortable enough with going home with you. Having more fun, getting more physical, soft closing early and non-dramatically, drawing out objections and looking at them as an opportunity to build trust and engagement rather than her trying to 'shit test' you seems like a good way to deal with it.

 

[Calibration]

Good stuff! You helped me breakout of strong negative perceptions I have towards women, to some extent.

Not exactly. It's not really about her trying to make you 'perform' for her, but simply trying to transfer the agency of choice onto you, so that she is less responsible for anything that happens.

I don't understand why women can't fucking own what they do!
A friend called me in the middle of the night once and said she just had sex with someone and she was feeling bad. I asked why would she feel bad. She said she recently became exclusive with someone and so she had cheated and was feeling guilty. She was thinking of lodging a rape case against the guy she had sex with. I stopped her from doing that and asked why'd she do that when she had fun having sex and she said she was drunk and feeling guilty and if the guy didn't progress, she wouldn't have done it. From inside, I was very furious but I spoke some sense to her and told her not to do that again but this time just accept what she had done and just cherish the good moments she had with this guy. I had to talk to her for nearly an hour to convince her not to do anything like what she was thinking. Remembering that still my blood boils. I eventually broke of that friendship with her, anyway.

It is also simply about inertia and uncertainty. You are getting insta-dates and trying to pull quite fast, for most girls (except maybe in clubs) they are not in this situation very often at all, that means that the prospect of going back raises all kinds of anxieties and questions that she is unable to answer quickly for herself, hence she starts verbalising anything and everything that could be an issue.

Hmm, makes sense but if I'm persisting, am I not increasing her anxiety?

It's the same as if you are a lazy bum who lies in bed all day, then someone comes and invites you to the gym. You might really want to get jacked, but you are going to start bringing out all sorts of random reasons why it can't happen because you cannot shift your internal frame fast enough (or at all) to a point where you feel secure enough to face the uncertainty of what you will encounter, and the prospect of facing some negative outcome such as being judged as weak.

Haha, your analogies are the best!

Especially now that I see how you try to look at things from the woman's perspective as a logical list of checkboxes, it seems likely that you are failing to provide enough comfort, and this is perhaps why you are able to sexualize but find it hard to pull. Does she see you as being on the 'same team' or as someone wanting something from her?

I'm improving. Like I mentioned earlier, I used to have strong negative perceptions about women due to some bad experiences I've had with them but someone here, can't remember who it was, pointed out to me to see her as an ally more than an adversary and that has definitely helped. But from time to time, I fall back into those negative mindset.

Do you sometimes show softness and vulnerability or just intensity and rigid focus?

I find it hard to strike that balance and be subtly vulnerable. I go all too soft and end up being friend-zoned. So, I try my best to be strong.

Do you sometimes make jokes and moves that are spontaneous and for your own self-expression and not designed to elicit a specific reaction?

This one is a bit tricky since I have the tendency to tease and sometimes I go too far. But just in general, I'm quite good at flirting. Its something I was good at even growing up and at school but just flirting doesn't help, as you know.

This sounds like she feels a disconnect or uncertainty that she cannot pinpoint, and needs to 'regroup' alone to figure it out.

Ya, so the more I persist when she wants to figure out herself, am I not pushing her away further and reinforce her feeling of something being 'not right'? Also, why do they ghost after this if they had time to think and then get back?

Persistence is about showing her enough consideration to buy yourself time to properly analyze the problem, being perceptive enough to deduce what is really bothering her, and then dealing with it in as casual and easygoing way as possible.

Don't you think she'd have made up her mind already to do anything?

I don't do online stuff (which I believe is Alex's main thing) but the way I do it in person is a bit different, I try to understand the logical basis for her non-compliance while finding a way to re-frame that's not direct. I like to soothe her with agreement and then re-frame later on. The reason being that often you will not know immediately the true reason why she is objecting, but it will become more obvious as it is brought to the forefront of her mind. If you just immediately counter or try to put her on the spot you could end up aiming at the wrong target. And as cheesy as it sounds, the words 'I understand' even if you haven't got a clue is truly the most soothing thing a woman can hear.

I think I get you here. But when I sense non-compliance from a girl, I become anxious and try to make her agree to what I was trying to make her do. I think this is where it goes south. So, do you think changing the subject and indirectly address her concerns, might help? Or even bouncing her to a new place so that she can take her mind off of something that she was thinking might help? and slowly and gradually reintroduce the subject? If you could give me an example when you faced non-compliance what you did or could choose one of the scenarios that I mentioned below and explain what the right course of action would be at a granular level, that'd be really helpful.

I don't look at it like that at all. I don't do apps so I don't compare it whatsoever. If a guy can pull right away from daygame with no objections that's one thing, but getting dtf girls on tinder is a different story.

I've been watching a lot of stuff from John Anthony (and using his opener to good effect lol) and one thing I've taken to heart is to stop thinking of resistance as 'shit-tests'. It is simply non-compliance. The term 'shit test' has a negative, bitter, competitive connotation but it is really a defensive move on her part, a failure on your part to properly pull her into your frame and handle objections, resulting in her not complying with what you want her to do.

Perhaps your impatience and lack of immersion and enjoyment is causing a lack of comfort for her?

Could be. When I get a feeling that the girl is ready, I try to push and when I unexpectedly notice that she's not complying, I lose patience and frame and try to push hard or just give up, like I mostly do.

All of these may be literal or just a cover for some other 'real' objection. Most of them are likely to be a combination of not being turned on enough and not being comfortable enough with going home with you. Having more fun, getting more physical, soft closing early and non-dramatically, drawing out objections and looking at them as an opportunity to build trust and engagement rather than her trying to 'shit test' you seems like a good way to deal with it.

This sounds like a mammoth task but I'll try next time. All the girls I've been with are the ones that I haven't had to persist so hard. I somehow get a feeling of being needy when I try to persist and I hate that feeling but will try now that I see it in a different perspective.

BTW, trying to explain you how I feel and all the things that I go through when it comes to persistence helped me shed light on some of the things that I otherwise wouldn't have thought of. Thanks again!!!

 

[HoofHearted]

This is a really great thread guys. I hope OP posts back after he gets to integrating some of the suggestions, im super curious.

 

[Calibration]

It is also simply about inertia and uncertainty. You are getting insta-dates and trying to pull quite fast, for most girls (except maybe in clubs) they are not in this situation very often at all, that means that the prospect of going back raises all kinds of anxieties and questions that she is unable to answer quickly for herself, hence she starts verbalising anything and everything that could be an issue.

I guess this is it! I was pulling my hair out unable to understand why'd she not come home with me if all the checklist that I mentioned is ticked? You answered it here @Will_V
When I said lets go to my place to dance, she said "Hahah.. I need to have a lot of alcohol, before I dance with you". So, what she meant was "She needs to be drunk to have sex".

Some girls just can't have sex without alcohol and specially with a stranger. I knew a female friend who had told me she had a history of lot of ONS but all of them when she was super-drunk and without alcohol, she couldn't even look into someone's eyes directly, forget having sex.

Even this chic was wearing sun-glasses throughout blaming it on bright sunlight. Although I asked her to remove it a few times, she'd briefly remove it and wear them back. So, this chic was definitely one such like my friend and also from her lifestyle, she has never had sex without alcohol with a stranger. After joining the dots, this makes total sense.

This leads to another important question: How can I have sex with girls who can have sex only with alcohol? I definitely don't want to fuck drunk girls!

P.S: She replied after my double-text saying she missed my first text, which I think is lies. Anyway, after some banter I soft-closed but she stopped texting me. So, I'm pretty sure she can't do it without alcohol even if she is super-attracted to me. Damn!

 

[TomInHo]

I guess this is it! I was pulling my hair out unable to understand why'd she not come home with me if all the checklist that I mentioned is ticked? You answered it here @Will_V
When I said lets go to my place to dance, she said "Hahah.. I need to have a lot of alcohol, before I dance with you". So, what she meant was "She needs to be drunk to have sex".

Some girls just can't have sex without alcohol and specially with a stranger. I knew a female friend who had told me she had a history of lot of ONS but all of them when she was super-drunk and without alcohol, she couldn't even look into someone's eyes directly, forget having sex.

No!

"I need to have lots of alcohol before I dance with you" is Womanese for "I need to feel a little safer and comfortable around you before we fuck"

Women sub-communicate their emotions through their words. It's not always logical

 

[Calibration]

No!

"I need to have lots of alcohol before I dance with you" is Womanese for "I need to feel a little safer and comfortable around you before we fuck"

Women sub-communicate their emotions through their words. It's not always logical

Makes sense. So, either she has to feel extremely safe and comfortable or must be drunk to not notice whether she is comfortable or not I guess? I think I have to work on building comfort, which I'm failing to do in most cases.

 

[TomInHo]

Makes sense. So, either she has to feel extremely safe and comfortable or must be drunk to not notice whether she is comfortable or not I guess?

Not really!

Let's go to your interactions to reveal what she really meant

I remembered @Will_V 's suggestion of better to sex-talk than to not. So, I went ahead this time.​

​

*I slowly segue into sex-talk: social > sexual > social > sexual > social > sexual....."​

You did a decent job with your sex talk but missed a lot of her sub-communications to escalate

Me: Like for a man, you have to be physical to be horny but for a woman you trigger the right switches in her brain and she gets aroused. Its actually fascinating. I don't want to be too graphic but you have a lot of erogeneous zones but they all get activated only through brain.​

She: So true... hahaha​

Me: It fascinates me how they can control their arousal based on what goes into their mind.​

She: True..most guys don't understand and they just don't know how to talk to women. Unable to have a good conversation and switch on those switches in the brain.​

Hint Hint... she is talking to you, enjoying your conversation. Then begins to contrast how other guys can't switch on those switches

Did it not occur to you that she may be horny at this point. Also remember she had does eyes earlier so she was very receptive

Me: Ya, I sometimes wonder how some guys don't get this at all. I have a few friends who think money, going to gym etc will get them girls, its so wrong.​

She: Ya they are a bonus​

Things are about to turn left

Me: Exactly! you can have all that if you want it for yourself but not to get girls.​

She: Exactly! I have had a lot of one night stands and the sex is horrible. They don't know what they are doing and still I will be hungry after that. So, I'm like I'll be with myself, no worries... hahaha​

She is implying that ONS is not fun sex. Either because there is no connection or the guys lack sexual competency. You could have dug deeper to find out which one it was and calibrated better

Me: I totally understand your situation. It must be very frustrating. ​

She: Ya, I find it so hard to orgasm?​

Me: What?​

She: Yes. I've been working on that​

Me: I don't think you are totally responsible for you unable to orgasm. Sex is like a partnership. You need to have both of them helping each other enjoy it. That's how it needs to be.​

She: Exactly!​

Ah! So lack of connection... But you showed you get it.... good

Me: In anything in life, you need to have cooperation in a project. For ex: Last year I started a business with a friend and he is very experienced in business and I'm a newbie. He would always tell me to do things and never tell me why. I used to get frustrated and always have arguments with him saying that you having experience doesn't mean anything. You need to let me know why we're doing something. Otherwise, I'll never learn about business and finally we ended the partnership cos I don't like to do things if there is no equal partnership in anything.​

She: That's good. You need to have a balance.​

Me: Ya, we always have things that don't go our way but we have to see how the other person is feeling. Like I was saying earlier, if a girl has to orgasm, you have to help her achieve it. Its a lot of mental thing when it comes to orgasming. She might be conscious of her body or she might be insecure etc and its the responsibility of the guy to understand her take it slowly in a step by step way and see if she is ready at every stage. I like to have sex more for passion and the sexual-tension than sex itself. Its not like "Bam Bam Thank you maam"​

She: Hahaha... Ya, most guys are like that. I'd be so disappointed but they'd have got what they wanted.​

Doubled down on connection.... good

Me: I find that very selfish and also I don't understand what pleasure guys get in having such sex​

She: No, for them its just another tick in their diary.​

What did I say... lol

Me: It amazes me sometimes.. don't want to be too descriptive but a girls body is so amazing. If a guy doesn't enjoy every part of her body, then what is the point of having sex? I ask the same to my friends who have sex when they're drunk. They don't remember anything the next day and what is the point of such sex?​

She: Maybe guys don't care but for a girl its different.​

Me: No, even for guys what is the point in having sex if they don't remember? If I have sex and look back, I should feel "Wow! that was awesome!"​

She: *Blushing*​

Me: I think guys just bulldoze without empathising how the girl feels​

She: Exactly. In French also we say Bulldozer and they do exactly like that.​

Bro, at this point she is pretty much sold on the verbal level. I would have started seeding the pull at this point in the interaction

Me: Ya, that's good. You have to do what you like. Specially as a girl, you have so much emotions and if you have an artistic mind, you can express it very well. Its all because of your hormones that you have so many emotions. Its amazing that you can orgasm in 8 different ways. Do you know this?​

She: Yes but its hard for me​

Me: But men can only orgasm 3 ways​

She: I thought only 2​

Me: No, if they are gay, its 3. (I didn't know jack-shit about this but somehow made up something)​

She: Ok, that's interesting to know. I thought its 2.​

She keeps going on and on about how hard it is for her to cum. This was a tell that she was not sold on you being able to deliver the goods. Could be because you missed the prior window or your sub-communication was off and not turning her on

Don't forget G, the verbals are great for making her open her mind for escalation, but if you don't escalate the vibe physically it would be hard to turn her on

You need both verbals and non verbals to really get them soaking wet downstairs

Me: BTW, although I like drawing, I like dancing a lot. I'm very passionate about that.​

She: Hahaha... I'm so bad at dancing​

Me: Like I was telling you earlier, everything comes down to a good company. If you're having a good partner to dance, its not really hard to dance. Its all about passion. Let's go to my place and we can dance. ​

Not a fan of how you seeded the pull.

I prefer to do it more nonchalant to avoid spiking ASD. So for example fractionate out of sexual talk, then bring up some activities through convo, and the one that she seems the most keen on is the one you would use as plausible deniability to go home with you

She: Hahaha... no, I'm very conscious when it comes to dancing and I'm working on that to be not conscious what ppl think about me​

AKA.... You spiked my ASD with the way you tried to close. Also I kinda like you now, but I'm not sure if I sleep with you on the first meeting if you would think I'm a slut

Me: There is a thin line between opportunities and boring life and that line is fear. On one side you have opportunities and on the other you have a life without any stimulation. If you're able to overcome that fear, you can enjoy a lot.​

She: I have always struggled when it comes to doing things that I'm uncomfortable to do and I'm working on that.​

Another tell... she saying how now she doesn't feel comfortable and then you do this

Me: Its all about passion like I said earlier. I have never performed on the stage and I don't like to perform on the stage cos I'll lose the essence of dancing and it becomes very mechanical. I don't like to do things mechanically. I want to enjoy every bit of whatever I do. If you have a dance partner who can teach you slowly and not be judgemental of how you feel, then actually dancing is so enjoyable. You just have to submit. I like submissive (laughing). I mean you have to submit to your desires and then you'll know the other side of fear. Let's go and you'll love it.​

She: Hahaha.. not today. I want to get back.​

This monologue was just unnecessary. What she needed at this point was reassurance and not a lecture. You could have dialed things back a little, built some comfort with her that didn't need to be sexual. Then suggested another thing to pull home without triggering ASD

Me: Hmm ok.. what plans for the rest of the day?​

She: I want to go back and sleep. I need some rest.​

Uh oh.... Does this sound familiar?

She: Exactly! I have had a lot of one night stands and the sex is horrible. They don't know what they are doing and still I will be hungry after that. So, I'm like I'll be with myself, no worries... hahaha

Me: You can rest at my place for sometime. Of course, I don't want you to be sleeping at my place (laughing) but you can just chill​

She: No, I have my place and I'll go sleep there but we can meet another time. Just write me and we can meet. I'm here until next Friday. I'll give you my WhatsApp or even number. (Offers her phone and gathers her things to leave)​

Me: Hmmm..ok. Anything will do, that is contactable.​

She: Yes, just write to me and we'll meet again.​

*We exchange contacts*​

Me: What's your name again?​

She: Coline.​

Me: Like this?​

She: You got my name perfectly​

Me: Ya, I know a couple of Colins​

She: that's so cool that you got my name correctly right away​

Me: Do you know my name?​

She: I told you I'm so bad with remembering some things and I forget names​

Me: Ah! come on..​

She: Ok, is it? blah...blah... blah...​

Me: No, give me your phone, will write my name.​

She: (Gives her phone)​

Me: (I write my name and then open WhatsApp quickly and type "You are very handsome " and sent it to me and she didn't notice that. She was busy talking about something)​

She: (Gets ready to leave)​

Me: Ya, I'll walk with you​

She: So, where do you live?​

Lol... I hope you see what just happened

Me: Come I'll show. (I walk around 50 mtrs). Do you see that red building?​

She: Yes​

Me: That's where I live.​

She: So, where are you going now?​

Bro.... she wants to see your place

Because you dialed down the vibe and built some more comfort, now she is ready to move forward and giving hints

Me: To my car. I have to gather some things from the car.​

She: So, you drive around in the city?​

She's milking the interactions hoping you will progress it further. Now she is really ready to get pulled

Me: No. I told you earlier that I went to meet a friend. I had left a few things in my car that I want to take home.​

*We walk another 5 mins talking about shit*​

She: Its so quiet here​

Me: Ya, cos its weekend and most ppl have gone out of town. BTW, we can go from here and you can take that street.​

She: Oh! no I will take this route. So, we're going to see each other right?​

Me: Yes.​

*Offers to hug her and kiss her and I do*​

Well all is not lost. I think if you handle the texting correctly you can get her to come over to your place for the second encounter or at the very least meet her somewhere close and then bounce back later

 

[Calibration]

Not really!

Let's go to your interactions to reveal what she really meant



You did a decent job with your sex talk but missed a lot of her sub-communications to escalate



Hint Hint... she is talking to you, enjoying your conversation. Then begins to contrast how other guys can't switch on those switches

Did it not occur to you that she may be horny at this point. Also remember she had does eyes earlier so she was very receptive




Things are about to turn left



She is implying that ONS is not fun sex. Either because there is no connection or the guys lack sexual competency. You could have dug deeper to find out which one it was and calibrated better



Ah! So lack of connection... But you showed you get it.... good



Doubled down on connection.... good



What did I say... lol



Bro, at this point she is pretty much sold on the verbal level. I would have started seeding the pull at this point in the interaction




She keeps going on and on about how hard it is for her to cum. This was a tell that she was not sold on you being able to deliver the goods. Could be because you missed the prior window or your sub-communication was off and not turning her on

Don't forget G, the verbals are great for making her open her mind for escalation, but if you don't escalate the vibe physically it would be hard to turn her on

You need both verbals and non verbals to really get them soaking wet downstairs



Not a fan of how you seeded the pull.

I prefer to do it more nonchalant to avoid spiking ASD. So for example fractionate out of sexual talk, then bring up some activities through convo, and the one that she seems the most keen on is the one you would use as plausible deniability to go home with you



AKA.... You spiked my ASD with the way you tried to close. Also I kinda like you now, but I'm not sure if I sleep with you on the first meeting if you would think I'm a slut



Another tell... she saying how now she doesn't feel comfortable and then you do this



This monologue was just unnecessary. What she needed at this point was reassurance and not a lecture. You could have dialed things back a little, built some comfort with her that didn't need to be sexual. Then suggested another thing to pull home without triggering ASD



Uh oh.... Does this sound familiar?

She: Exactly! I have had a lot of one night stands and the sex is horrible. They don't know what they are doing and still I will be hungry after that. So, I'm like I'll be with myself, no worries... hahaha



Lol... I hope you see what just happened



Bro.... she wants to see your place

Because you dialed down the vibe and built some more comfort, now she is ready to move forward and giving hints



She's milking the interactions hoping you will progress it further. Now she is really ready to get pulled

Your analysis seems to be accurate. I missed all the windows that she opened and tried pulling at the wrong time. Damn!
Dancing was a bad idea to pull cos firstly she had resistance to dancing and secondly she was already not very comfortable. Looking back, I was too caught up in the delivery of sex-talk and not seeing when she did give clues to bounce. Since the sex-talk was going very well, I thought I just enjoyed delivering it too much. Teevster has a post on inflation and I think that's exactly what happened. Fuck!

Well all is not lost. I think if you handle the texting correctly you can get her to come over to your place for the second encounter or at the very least meet her somewhere close and then bounce back later

No, I think it's done. She left me on read after soft-closing, Skills suggested to send Good morning message and she didn't open that text although she was online many times after that:

https://imgur.com/a/2McjgOJ

https://imgur.com/a/OrbLilr

https://imgur.com/a/601CX8B

 

[Skills]

Your analysis seems to be accurate. I missed all the windows that she opened and tried pulling at the wrong time. Damn!
Dancing was a bad idea to pull cos firstly she had resistance to dancing and secondly she was already not very comfortable. Looking back, I was too caught up in the delivery of sex-talk and not seeing when she did give clues to bounce. Since the sex-talk was going very well, I thought I just enjoyed delivering it too much. Teevster has a post on inflation and I think that's exactly what happened. Fuck!


No, I think it's done. She left me on read after soft-closing, Skills suggested to send Good morning message and she didn't open that text although she was online many times after that:

https://imgur.com/a/2McjgOJ

https://imgur.com/a/OrbLilr

https://imgur.com/a/601CX8B

Shawn, next time you need to understand the dynamics of the ping of morning (when you get a chance review the post were i explain it, recently was bumped).... Anyways, the goal is to Morning with sun a emoji, every day post encounter so she get used to your text and see the morning as something you do naturally and automatic everyday.... The way you are doing it is less potent, but is ok.... Because you were not doing it every day....

 

[Calibration]

After @TomInHo suggested(Thanks bro, at least I got to know) that it was lack of comfort, I thought it was indeed the issue and so I "triple texted" with this like Alex from PWF. He suggests to call out the objections and solve it. She answered however she didn't come out in the end though. I don't want to push anymore and her last text was already borderline rude. Also, I don't like to push when she's not showing any interest and felt like she was walking all over me, not answering, leaving me on read etc. Anyway, a couple of questions:
1. Is there anything I could've done better over texting?
2. How exactly do I build comfort? Is it talking about her dreams, passions, fears etc? I don't really get this tbh. Whenever I've tried doing something like that, I end up being friendzoned.

I think there was something going on with her. She texted me at 1 am.. which is kinda unusual

https://imgur.com/a/44cT5js

https://imgur.com/a/Q6gOxEl