How to handle my sticking points?

[DarkJedi]

Apologies for the long post, but I'm at a loss at this point and thought I needed to put everything on the table.

I've been reading GC articles and learning about PUA concepts for a few years, but used to never cold-approach consistently (do it for a few days, then give up, rinse-and-repeat). I've used the concepts whenever the opportunity presented itself and also in my relationships, and they have helped tremendously.

This year I've decided to really get a handle on cold approach and make it work for me. I'm 33, Indian living in Western Europe, and mostly doing daygame (don't like bars and clubs much). I've approached quite a few women (haven't counted, maybe around a 100), gotten 2 lays, but it has always felt random and inconsistent. I think I'm stuck and need to figure out what to focus on to go to the next level. Also, till 2022, I was either in short relationships or meeting some girls through apps (apps have gone way worse from 2022 somehow), but now it has been pretty dry lately and my sexual confidence has taken a hit too. I've also gone through a bout of depression lately, and getting back on my feet.

I mostly do direct game, opening with a genuine interest opener. If possible, I try to get the girl to notice me first in some way. If I'm in a good mood and my vibe is right, they usually respond well. If we have a decent conversation and she's not brought up a boyfriend, I suggest we should get a drink sometime and get their number. I've noticed a few things:

• A "good, interesting" conversation leads to numbers but they fizzle out. If I start out in that vibe, its hard for me to shift it to something fun and exciting
• Approaching with a more fun, dominant vibe leads to more numbers which don't respond to icebreaker texts, but the ones that do are off to a good start.
• Shorter, fun or intriguing conversations have higher odds
• I have tried doing instant dates when possible. But most don't want to meet up again later.

I've been reading Hector's book on texting and its been a great help in understanding what I've done wrong in the past. I send an icebreaker text and try to do some fun chit-chat to keep them warm and then ask them out for coffee or drinks. Here I see my number-to-date-ratio is bad. Many don't respond to icebreaker texts. The ones that do, the moment they I ask them out, they give excuses for being busy etc and it fizzles out. In my experience, the ones that are interested always make time for you within a week.

As for places, street stops don't work mostly for me. I get numbers when my vibe is really good, but most don't reply to my icebreaker text. I've had the most successes at supermarkets. We have a mall close to where I live, but I feel that the girls there are on edge, I get blown out brutally! I guess they get approached there a lot. I have tried bookstores too sometimes, opening them situationally, but in a bookstore the vibe is low-energy and I can't seem to change the platonic vibe to something more exciting after the situational opening (I'm stuck talking about books and interesting topics, but can't get her excited)

As for the dates, we're having good conversation with lots of deep diving, but it gets hard for me to make it sexual. I touch them, also tease them, but its a hit or miss. The girls that are properly into me will lap up all the teasing and even invite me to tease them in a way, but the neutral ones laugh politely but I feel it goes nowhere. I also try to move them to places to gain compliance. At some point I invite them home (I'm trying to follow the move faster philosophy) and they politely decline. When that happens its very hard to get them out a next time. Also, I've had dates where the girl was very highly compliant, saying yes to all my suggestions, and then by the end of the night, they've become non-compliant.

What used to work well in the past in my non-cold-approach days (social circle mostly) was that I'd be mostly doing teases and chase-frames and never verbalizing interest outright. Always keep them in the chasing position, ask them out for drinks, flirt and banter, touch them (they were way more receptive to physical escalation when in the chasing position) and at some point kiss them. When they accept the kiss, its on. Invite them home sometime later. If they accept, great. Even if they don't, I know it'll happen the next time. It was like, if I get a date with a girl, I know I'll sleep with her. Now, if I'm coming from the direct cold approach though, I find it difficult to keep this chasing position. Not sure if it is my head or something I need to change in my approach.

I really want to get better at this. Would be great if you can give me some pointers to what I should do. Lately I had been reading some advanced articles on GC and the forum (sex talk, NLP conversational techniques) but I think I need to get the basics right first.

Also some specific questions about the dates:

• Should I hold off from trying to get them home on the first date for now?
• Should I try to kiss them or not on the date?
• How do I get them to chase when my initial frame showed interest in them?

 

[Chase]

@DarkJedi,

When I read this:

What used to work well in the past in my non-cold-approach days (social circle mostly) was that I'd be mostly doing teases and chase-frames and never verbalizing interest outright. Always keep them in the chasing position, ask them out for drinks, flirt and banter, touch them (they were way more receptive to physical escalation when in the chasing position) and at some point kiss them. When they accept the kiss, its on. Invite them home sometime later. If they accept, great. Even if they don't, I know it'll happen the next time. It was like, if I get a date with a girl, I know I'll sleep with her.

... and then I read this:

Now, if I'm coming from the direct cold approach though, I find it difficult to keep this chasing position.

... the question that comes to mind is, "Why not just make indirect cold approaches, then run the same stuff that worked for you before?"

The only time I think direct openers are more or less mandatory is if you're doing street stops. Even then, you can skip direct openers and go for directional ones: "Excuse me... hey, hi there. Do you happen to know where I could go to find ABC thing?"

If you've got a whole process that worked before, that you can't use now because you're doing one or two things different, it seems like the easier thing to do would be to change the one or two things, then use that whole working process, rather than keep the one or two things and have to reinvent a new process from scratch.

Just some notes:

Shorter, fun or intriguing conversations have higher odds

Yeah, maybe it depends on the guy, but this has long been my experience too: if you're going for dates, make it a short interaction, not a long one.

I have tried doing instant dates when possible. But most don't want to meet up again later.

Similar to that last point. IMO instant dates are best if you think you stand a chance to pull the girl same-day. Otherwise at least for me the higher odds are skipping the instant date and going for a quick number close. You waste less time that way too.

I've been reading Hector's book on texting and its been a great help in understanding what I've done wrong in the past. I send an icebreaker text and try to do some fun chit-chat to keep them warm and then ask them out for coffee or drinks. Here I see my number-to-date-ratio is bad. Many don't respond to icebreaker texts. The ones that do, the moment they I ask them out, they give excuses for being busy etc and it fizzles out. In my experience, the ones that are interested always make time for you within a week.

Sounds like attraction/hooking problems.

Rather than text, where you are facing low odds, have you tried any of the following?

1. Bonding phone calls
2. Video messages
3. Audio messages

All of these are much better at building attraction + comfort than texts, and it sounds like this is the area you're lacking in.

Longer-term, you need to focus on stronger first impressions where girls are at least a bit dazzled / sucked in. A short, very strong impression > longer impression that is more mediocre. You'll know you're creating strong impressions when you start being able to turn numbers into dates more regularly just with simple texting.

Should I hold off from trying to get them home on the first date for now?

Things are always worth experimenting with.

Since you are trying to pull but girls are balking and you aren't seeing them again, it's worth trying a date compression approach instead, unless you're getting strong "it's on" vibes:

Having Lots of Dates in Short Amounts of Time

While my normal recommendations are that guys stay far out of boyfriend-territory and focus on sealing the deal with girls they like on the first date, the truth is sometimes you're going to move too slow by accident, or not feel confident enough moving quickly with a girl, and you'll wind up as...

www.girlschase.com

If that still leads to the same flakiness issue, then it's not the pulling or not pulling that's the core issue, it's what you're doing on dates.

Should I try to kiss them or not on the date?

Worth experimenting with.

From your description, it sounds like the big problem is not making it click with girls. Probably an arousal problem if you're deep diving fine but girls are rejecting your teasing.

Kissing is arousal tech. So who knows, maybe if you start throwing it in there it'll give you a bit of a boost.

Long-term you're probably better off using tighter arousal tactics and skipping the on-date kiss. But if you start adding kisses in and girls become more willing, it can help serve as a stepping stone.

That said, how many dates have you gone on to be looking for patterns like this, with 100 approaches but most of them flaking? I assume you're drawing mainly from online dates rather than cold approach dates? There are similarities between what work on these, but also differences. Online dates typically need you to get the arousal going pretty fast and lead it to sex, and if you don't, the girl usually just decides you can't deliver. Day game cold approach dates tend to be a bit more forgiving.

How do I get them to chase when my initial frame showed interest in them?

Do you own One Date? Review TDA Lesson 1.2 I think it is, "Making Girls Chase in the First 10 Minutes." The full lesson's devoted to this, including for direct opens.

Cheers!
Chase

 

[DarkJedi]

@Chase ,
Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll address all the points you talked about.

Btw, between when I wrote the post and now, I've managed to pull a girl from nightgame. My first nightgame SNL! Pretty happy about it. The girl seemed very connection-focused, so I was in my element. Mostly deep-diving, almost no teasing, lots of non-verbals and touch, and compliance-building. Also had to use ideas from GC articles about handling her friends and other guys in the group.

the question that comes to mind is, "Why not just make indirect cold approaches, then run the same stuff that worked for you before?"

The only time I think direct openers are more or less mandatory is if you're doing street stops. Even then, you can skip direct openers and go for directional ones: "Excuse me... hey, hi there. Do you happen to know where I could go to find ABC thing?"

If you've got a whole process that worked before, that you can't use now because you're doing one or two things different, it seems like the easier thing to do would be to change the one or two things, then use that whole working process, rather than keep the one or two things and have to reinvent a new process from scratch.

Yes, I should try indirect more often. Situational opens I have tried if the opportunity presented itself, but its sometimes hard to come up with something on the fly. Also, for things like asking for directions, I find it difficult to switch the vibe to flirting after she answered my question. Any tips for that?

Also, in a social circle, there's the difference that they'll keep on coming back. So I could build the attraction and comfort over time. In cold approach, I have once chance to get it right.

Sounds like attraction/hooking problems.

Rather than text, where you are facing low odds, have you tried any of the following?

1. Bonding phone calls
2. Video messages
3. Audio messages

All of these are much better at building attraction + comfort than texts, and it sounds like this is the area you're lacking in.

I've just read Alek's articles on video messages, still to try that. I have tried audio messages, but after things have gone down and the girl hasn't responded. I now understand why that hasn't worked . I'll try audio messages as the starting point and see where it goes.

I agree bonding phone calls are amazing. I have had times in the past where I talked to girls on the phone a few times, and by the time we met they were both comfortable and excited. However, I feel these days calls are out of fashion for younger girls. Either they feel its weird or maybe the newer generation is less socially confident, to be fine picking up a call from a person they just met. I have even had girls who I was texting with frequently who just rejected my call and asked to keep on texting instead.

Things are always worth experimenting with.

Since you are trying to pull but girls are balking and you aren't seeing them again, it's worth trying a date compression approach instead, unless you're getting strong "it's on" vibes:

Will be on my list to try. In fact, now that you mention it, I think that's what's happening: in the interest of moving fast, I'm asking them for things they're not ready for since its not "it's on vibes". So, unless they're compliant, accepting my touch and hooked, I shouldn't invite them home. It has been good reference experiences though, so I'm happy to have seen when it doesn't work. Helps with learning calibration.

Side note: just being compliant doesn't seem to help. I've met very compliant girls who would go along with all my suggestions, moving to places with me, walking with me, sitting wherever I suggest them, etc., but without the attraction/hooking part, they politely decline to go home when asked.

Kissing is arousal tech. So who knows, maybe if you start throwing it in there it'll give you a bit of a boost.

Long-term you're probably better off using tighter arousal tactics and skipping the on-date kiss. But if you start adding kisses in and girls become more willing, it can help serve as a stepping stone.

That makes so much sense. Even this girl I pulled from nightgame, she mentioned later that when I kissed her, she realized that her night will turn out more interesting.

That said, how many dates have you gone on to be looking for patterns like this, with 100 approaches but most of them flaking? I assume you're drawing mainly from online dates rather than cold approach dates? There are similarities between what work on these, but also differences. Online dates typically need you to get the arousal going pretty fast and lead it to sex, and if you don't, the girl usually just decides you can't deliver. Day game cold approach dates tend to be a bit more forgiving.

Well, I had a few instant dates from these approaches, around 7. I treated them as dating experiences as well. I also drew a few conclusions from earlier times when I had tried approaching on-and-off.

I have excluded any online dating experiences from this. My online dating experience bar 1 or 2 was mostly during the pandemic times, where we had the advantage of lockdowns giving the excuse of meeting directly at home. I would suggest a call as a "first date", make them comfortable and invite them over. Anyone who came over I've managed to sleep with. There were some who suggested a walking date outside. Except one, they didn't work out. I also feel that with online dating, if you have matched and are talking to someone, the frame is pretty clear that both of you want things to progress, and the girl kind of expects it to happen.

Do you own One Date? Review TDA Lesson 1.2 I think it is, "Making Girls Chase in the First 10 Minutes." The full lesson's devoted to this, including for direct opens.

I don't own it right now unfortunately. Good to know about this lesson in case I decide to buy it

 

[Chase]

@DarkJedi,

Btw, between when I wrote the post and now, I've managed to pull a girl from nightgame. My first nightgame SNL! Pretty happy about it. The girl seemed very connection-focused, so I was in my element. Mostly deep-diving, almost no teasing, lots of non-verbals and touch, and compliance-building. Also had to use ideas from GC articles about handling her friends and other guys in the group.

Nicely done, man! Props!

Write an LR on it if you find the time. It's can be helpful for cementing gains and new things that worked in your head, especially when it's a new kind of experience.

Yes, I should try indirect more often. Situational opens I have tried if the opportunity presented itself, but its sometimes hard to come up with something on the fly. Also, for things like asking for directions, I find it difficult to switch the vibe to flirting after she answered my question. Any tips for that?

See my example flirtation in this response:

Having Trouble With Daygame

That could be a problem right there. In my opinion, 99% of daygame results depends on state. It's no coincidence that you see some of the best daygamers out there espouse meditation and place a lot of emphasis on state control in general. James Marshall (who probably more than anyone inspires...

www.skilledseducer.com

Also, in a social circle, there's the difference that they'll keep on coming back. So I could build the attraction and comfort over time. In cold approach, I have once chance to get it right.

Yes.

I've just read Alek's articles on video messages, still to try that. I have tried audio messages, but after things have gone down and the girl hasn't responded. I now understand why that hasn't worked . I'll try audio messages as the starting point and see where it goes.

I agree bonding phone calls are amazing. I have had times in the past where I talked to girls on the phone a few times, and by the time we met they were both comfortable and excited. However, I feel these days calls are out of fashion for younger girls. Either they feel its weird or maybe the newer generation is less socially confident, to be fine picking up a call from a person they just met. I have even had girls who I was texting with frequently who just rejected my call and asked to keep on texting instead.

Do whichever you prefer most.

Re: girls rejecting calls, when they text you back you just say, "Quit being a weirdo and pick up my call. You don't have to be all nervous." Then when they laugh and say okay, you call them again.

It's a good frame, that they are nervous about talking with you (which usually they are), it gets them to comply, and you help ease them into the idea of jumping on a call.

Side note: just being compliant doesn't seem to help. I've met very compliant girls who would go along with all my suggestions, moving to places with me, walking with me, sitting wherever I suggest them, etc., but without the attraction/hooking part, they politely decline to go home when asked.

You need to be getting compliance on arousal-related measures as well: lots of touch, sexual framing, etc. If it's only leadership then you run the risk of a passive girl who is not sexually receptive. You need to probe for that as well.

Again, sounds like a lack of arousal issue here as well.

Well, I had a few instant dates from these approaches, around 7. I treated them as dating experiences as well. I also drew a few conclusions from earlier times when I had tried approaching on-and-off.

I have excluded any online dating experiences from this. My online dating experience bar 1 or 2 was mostly during the pandemic times, where we had the advantage of lockdowns giving the excuse of meeting directly at home. I would suggest a call as a "first date", make them comfortable and invite them over. Anyone who came over I've managed to sleep with. There were some who suggested a walking date outside. Except one, they didn't work out. I also feel that with online dating, if you have matched and are talking to someone, the frame is pretty clear that both of you want things to progress, and the girl kind of expects it to happen.

All right. So you were more used to online dates, where the arousal part is often sort of baked in -- she knows the drill, it's a hookup app, you're probably not looking for marriage, etc. Girls on dating apps in general tend to be higher count, more comfortable with casual sex types.

When you switch to cold approach, you can't assume the girl "knows the drill" or is already receptive; you have to handle the arousal part more expertly. Sometimes you will run into those same more open/experienced girls via day or night game that you do online, but you're less likely to, and the whole situation is less clear (especially day game), so you must be able to set that yourself.

Chase

 

[DarkJedi]

@Chase, apologies for the late reply. Had a busy few days.

Nicely done, man! Props!

Write an LR on it if you find the time. It's can be helpful for cementing gains and new things that worked in your head, especially when it's a new kind of experience.

Thanks! Yes it was definitely new, and I could see quite a few things discussed here in action. I'll write an LR as soon as I find some time.

See my example flirtation in this response:

Having Trouble With Daygame

That could be a problem right there. In my opinion, 99% of daygame results depends on state. It's no coincidence that you see some of the best daygamers out there espouse meditation and place a lot of emphasis on state control in general. James Marshall (who probably more than anyone inspires...

www.skilledseducer.com

This is gold! Don't think I've seen something like this in any GC article.

Re: girls rejecting calls, when they text you back you just say, "Quit being a weirdo and pick up my call. You don't have to be all nervous." Then when they laugh and say okay, you call them again.

It's a good frame, that they are nervous about talking with you (which usually they are), it gets them to comply, and you help ease them into the idea of jumping on a call.

Nice one. Will keep this one in my pocket for when needed.

You need to be getting compliance on arousal-related measures as well: lots of touch, sexual framing, etc. If it's only leadership then you run the risk of a passive girl who is not sexually receptive. You need to probe for that as well.

Again, sounds like a lack of arousal issue here as well.

Yes I understand now this is a thing I really need to get better at. I think I might have some shame associated with it as well, due to cultural conditioning perhaps. I still have the thought deep down that "good girls" don't want things so fast, unless I am being conscious of my thoughts and weeding it out. Whenever a girl acts nice and proper, and not so fun/flirty, I hesitate to touch, breach more risque topics, etc. Not so much with fun and flirty girls.