How to improve retention

[rockstar]

Hey, I have been having issues with keeping girls around this year. At this point it's become clear that this has become a consistent sticking point for me, and I'm trying to figure out how to better diagnose and fix this problem.

Background
I don't have problems meeting girls or getting laid anymore. I close around ~70% of my first dates (more in certain cities or with certain types of girls). I use more or less every avenue for meeting girls: daygame, nightgame, apps, social media, social circle, events/parties.

Issue
The past year I've had a lot of girls just disappear after 1-3 dates (occasionally a little more). These are all girls I slept with on the first date. Actually ~80% of the girls that I would like to keep seeing have disappeared on me this year. Though there are a lot that I wasn't into enough to see again that would still chase me after.

The biggest difference I notice from girls who stick around is attractiveness. More normal-looking girls are much more likely to chase me, while really hot and impressive-looking girls are more likely to just disappear and be unresponsive. I spent a lot of the past 2 years sleeping with a stupidly high amount of girls, but I don't really enjoy random ONS's so much anymore. This has lead me to being a lot more selective with girls recently, hence only going after really stunning ones who usually invest a lot less.

Patterns
The disappearing tends to follow one of a few patterns:

1. Girl is really invested over text after the date, but our schedules don't line up for a couple weeks due to plans or travel or sickness or whatever and by the time we're both free again she's no longer investing.

2. Girl finds a boyfriend. This sometimes happens super fast with a guy she even met after me, yet she'll just start avoiding me instead of pursuing a relationship with me.

3. Girl tells herself that I'm just a player and not looking for anything serious or gets really jealous about my other girls and avoids me to protect herself. I had a period earlier this year where I was posting a lot of club nights, social events, photoshoots, etc with a lot of attractive female friends on social media. I think this was mostly the trigger for this issue. I've also been able to deal with this one by just being really warm with the girl and discussing things/reassuring her.

4. Things just fizzle out and I don't know why. The girl is really into me on the date, usually says really positive things about the sex, etc. But then is unresponsive when I'm trying to plan the next date or starts being busy all the time. This makes up about half of all instances, and is the one I want to fix.

I also had a recent girl from social circle that I had fucked from trips and parties, but couldn't get to come out on a 1-1 date. She would made plans with me and then ghosted a few hours before twice. I think she just liked me enough to sleep with me, but not enough to come out on dates - I don't think I was really her archetype at all.

Diagnosis
When I first asked some wings about this, they said I have too much of a "nonchalant fuckboy vibe" and that they didn't see how I could come off as caring at all about girls with the amount of girls I was going through. But now I've toned down the volume and was focusing a lot on deep diving and making girls feel understood and validated on unique values of thiers, etc. But I'm still having issues. Recently, another wing said he thought it was a masculinity issue. That these girls just view me as a "meatstick" and don't respect me as a man. So I've been focusing on upping the dominance and control of my nonverbals and making sure to always be leading, in control of frames etc. I need to keep trying this out, but I might have still lost another girl this week (after second date).

Other info
When I first started really learning game I had the exact opposite issue. Girlfriends would get obsessed with me, but I just didn't meet many girls and hot girls weren't into me. The girlfriends I had weren't attractive. Now I can sleep with hot girls, they just don't stick around. (Though average/pretty girls do).

Honestly, getting girls to actually show up and meet me is always the biggest sticking point. My approaches seem to go well, and I sleep with most girls on dates. Girls also seem really into me on dates. I even occasionally have these mindfuck scenarios where girls are super worried about me ghosting after sex...and then they ghost. When I don't get laid on the first date, I rarely ever can get the girl out again.

Questions
For those of you who've had this problem, how did you overcome it?
What generally causes this issue and what should I focus on on dates to keep girls around?
I want girls that I like to get obsessed with me and make themselves available to hang out. Rather than be so apathetic. I'd like to have a couple cool consistent gfs or fwbs rather than endless 2-3-night stands.


TLDR: Hot girls that I sleep with disappear and lose interest after 1-4 dates. How can I keep them around?

 

[Chase]

@rockstar,

Nice job on the success you're having closing girls out.

I see you've toned down the player vibes and worked on building more connections.

What's your actual boyfriend value though? Are you qualifying yourself in as a boyfriend candidate or are girls deciding you're unqualified for that? I would assume the latter.

Check this article out, especially the section on "Developing & Showing Off Provider Qualities":

How to Get Girls You're Sleeping with to Want You as a Boyfriend

Sometimes girls sleep with guys they don’t want to date. Here’s how to get a girl to want you as a boyfriend even if she doesn’t think she does (at first). Most guys struggle to get together with the girls they really want. Girls slow game them, won’t put out, or turn flakey or start ghosting...

www.girlschase.com

Hot girls in particular are more demanding about guys they get with actually having solid provider potential for ongoing relationships. They're a lot more likely to discard a guy quick if he doesn't seem to measure up ("That was a fun lay, but there's no future with this guy"). They're also a lot more likely to have an internal reassessment post-sex if they feel like you didn't meet their long-term standard ("All right, I fucked that guy, but is this the kind of guy I want to date long-term? What am I doing here? I need to get serious about finding a quality guy here").

So, my suspicion (since you don't mention it at all here / it doesn't seem to be on your mind) is the issue likely not showing enough boyfriend value. Bring that more front and center and see if that changes things.

Also may be worth checking out for more ideas:

How to Convert One-Time Sex into Regular Sex

Many years back, I had dinner with a girl I’d recently just slept with. We were both young and inexperienced; our date had been fun, but the sex mediocre. On this second date, we had a nice time, and chatted. I didn’t have much more time in town, and would be leaving soon. At the end of the...

www.girlschase.com

Tactics Tuesdays: Re-Seductions to Convert Your Fast Lays

If you sleep with her too quick, the odds she sees you again go down. Want to raise them up? Re-seduce her once she's dressed and on her way out before you let her go. If you do fast pickups, where you're sleeping with women very soon after meeting them, you'll run into a certain issue. It won't...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

 

[rockstar]

@Chase Thanks for the quick response. I hadn't read the first article you linked yet

What's your actual boyfriend value though? Are you qualifying yourself in as a boyfriend candidate or are girls deciding you're unqualified for that?

I do make a point to mention things like helping out siblings, teaching things to friends, and occasionally texting or showing pics with animals or family. I almost never talk about finances or career with girls, but I generally live in hip, central parts of cities and pay on dates. Actually I tell girls that my job is an artistic hobby/side hustle that I have. I don't tell them my actual nerdy day job.

I also make a point to fight the "you're just a player/you do this with every girl/you're a party guy" type frames. I try to frame me being around women as being for work, that I get dragged to parties, but am "above" those things. Or say I used to sleep around in the past, but now I don't like meaningless sex, etc. Honestly a lot of this is more me dealing with objections.

I guess I expect girls to make more of an effort to try to lock me down or get to know me better after sex. But maybe I need to be more proactive about advertising those qualities after sex. I don't want to set boyfriend-y frames immediately either though - I prefer to vet girls over a month or two first.

On one hand I don't think of myself as an all-lover, no-provider type guy. But I also have spent the past couple years building up a lover-ish image. My fashion is edgy, my social media is pretty "douchey", I have a lot of social/sexual value stories, I'm very comfortable sexualizing and holding tension with girls, etc. I don't go all-out on that vibe with most girls though.

Is it better to hint at more boyfriend-value qualities (family guy, has money, well-liked, not degenerate party guy), or to focus more on being more affectionate and giving investment to the girl (more date-y dates, less netflix and chill, text her more just to chat and check in, remembers things about her, maybe even small/casual gifts like buying her favorite snack or something)?

I'd also like to keep some of these girls around as casual fwb's, not necessarily only girlfriends

 

[Gladiator]

How to Convert One-Time Sex into Regular Sex

Many years back, I had dinner with a girl I’d recently just slept with. We were both young and inexperienced; our date had been fun, but the sex mediocre. On this second date, we had a nice time, and chatted. I didn’t have much more time in town, and would be leaving soon. At the end of the...

www.girlschase.com

Not trying to derail your thread @rockstar, just complementing it. This concept seems harder than my engineering subjects. I have the same question as @rockstar

I'd also like to keep some of these girls around as casual fwb's, not necessarily only girlfriends

Deep-diving and higher emotional investment makes her want me as her boyfriend. Not doing that will end up in not retaining. How to balance this?

I've lost a lot in the past by going cold after sex but being a bit warm makes them push me towards commitment, which I'm dodging one rn.

 

[Chase]

@rockstar,

Actually I tell girls that my job is an artistic hobby/side hustle that I have. I don't tell them my actual nerdy day job.

This might be part of it.

You can do the whole "I'm an artist/creative" thing in the pickup, but after you shag her it's good to ground yourself to something more stable if you want her coming back around.

For me that's like:

ME: [post-sex] All right, better hit the hay, got an early day at the ol' grind tomorrow.​

​

HER: Writing books? I thought you were a writer?​

​

ME: Well... gotta pay the bills ​

​

HER: So you have another job?​

You throw that little piece of bait out there, and the girls who were disqualifying you perk their ears up and start digging in, trying to uncover the mystery, realizing they might've had you pegged all wrong. If your job/socioeconomic status wasn't a problem for her, she can just ignore the bait.

Works whether you want an STR or LTR. If all you want is an FWB, you're not promising her commitment by indicating you're higher social class, you're just telling her, "Yes, I am the kind of guy you like to have around."

The psychological process on the woman's part is basically:

1. "I like this guy, he's a really sexy and fun artistic guy, I'll go to bed with him."
2. "That sex was fun, but this guy's just a sexy artistic douche. I'm not going to see him again."
3. "Wait a minute, he's actually got a regular job too? Is it a decent one? Is this guy actually cool AND stable? Holy heck!"
4. "All right, I'm not sure, but this guy seems like he might actually be really good. I should keep seeing him to get to know him better and find out."

So long as you can continue to throw out little hooks and give her those unexpected surprises, she is typically going to keep coming around to explore you more. Then of course once she's come around a few times and you've laid pipe on her across a few occasions, she's converted.

It's best to calibrate this to the girl, her career, her ambitions, etc. The bigger they are, the bigger of your own position/ambitions you want to hint at.

I guess I expect girls to make more of an effort to try to lock me down or get to know me better after sex. But maybe I need to be more proactive about advertising those qualities after sex. I don't want to set boyfriend-y frames immediately either though - I prefer to vet girls over a month or two first.

Well, she's only going to try to lock you down if she judges you seem lockdown-worthy.

It sounds like you're keeping your main lockdown-worthy value hidden away, not even hinted at. You're probably doing a good enough job with your lover frame that it's all congruent and she assumes that's all there is.

Fun for a lay, but not worth much more to her than that.

Remember, girls can't read your mind. They don't know your personal backstory, potential, etc., beyond what you reveal to them.

If she holds herself to higher standards, a guy who's good for an ONS may not be good as a potential FWB or boyfriend... unless he shows her he actually is.

Other consideration: not every girl is looking for casual short-term relationships. If she's not, and she sleeps with you but then judges you're not long-term material, she is OUT.

You can get girls who want LTRs to hang around with you in STRs -- but only if they believe there's potential to progress it to an LTR, and they believe you could be a good fit for their requirements for an LTR.


@Gladiator,

Deep-diving and higher emotional investment makes her want me as her boyfriend. Not doing that will end up in not retaining. How to balance this?

I've lost a lot in the past by going cold after sex but being a bit warm makes them push me towards commitment, which I'm dodging one rn.

Do you tease girls too?

Teasing offsets a lot of the heaviness of deep diving. If it's just deep diving, it can get REALLY deep, and then the girl feels like she's found her soul mate. If you're cracking jokes every so often though and bringing her back out of it, it's a good connection, but it's not usually 'fated'.

Not sure what 'cold' and 'warm' look like for you post-lay, but my preference is usually no really deep conversation; just some questions about things I'm curious to know about her, with me nodding / acknowledging her responses, arm around her in bed, very comfortable, like we're just two good friends. If we're going to go to sleep, I'll just let myself drift off like that. Then wake up and shag her hard again sometime during the night, and/or again the next morning.

If you're having trouble with girls pushing for commitment, you can always set some FWB expectations from the get-go to try and nip that in the bud as well:

Relationship Expectations: Kill Some Impulsiveness and Set Some of These Instead

There's something in a normal relationship called the "honeymoon period." The honeymoon period is the period in the relationship where both parties are blissful and neither one feels the other can do any wrong and everything about one another seems special and amazing and great. Your girl thinks...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

 

[Skills]

Hey, I have been having issues with keeping girls around this year. At this point it's become clear that this has become a consistent sticking point for me, and I'm trying to figure out how to better diagnose and fix this problem.

Background
I don't have problems meeting girls or getting laid anymore. I close around ~70% of my first dates (more in certain cities or with certain types of girls). I use more or less every avenue for meeting girls: daygame, nightgame, apps, social media, social circle, events/parties.

^ this is how it should be... Awesome!

Issue
The past year I've had a lot of girls just disappear after 1-3 dates (occasionally a little more). These are all girls I slept with on the first date. Actually ~80% of the girls that I would like to keep seeing have disappeared on me this year. Though there are a lot that I wasn't into enough to see again that would still chase me after.

Are you banging them in all 3 dates? something does not sound right, the ones you were not into don't count...

The biggest difference I notice from girls who stick around is attractiveness. More normal-looking girls are much more likely to chase me, while really hot and impressive-looking girls are more likely to just disappear and be unresponsive. I spent a lot of the past 2 years sleeping with a stupidly high amount of girls, but I don't really enjoy random ONS's so much anymore. This has lead me to being a lot more selective with girls recently, hence only going after really stunning ones who usually invest a lot less.

^ this is normal, now with the stunning ones, the problem many guys have is that they get mild onitis and needy, now the onitis and neediness is very very subtle, but she can feel it.... I will give you some stuff you can test later...

Patterns
The disappearing tends to follow one of a few patterns:

1. Girl is really invested over text after the date, but our schedules don't line up for a couple weeks due to plans or travel or sickness or whatever and by the time we're both free again she's no longer investing.

So weird the schedules don't line up for multiple weeks, that is huge kills momentum...solution may be to keep pinging and texting starting from 0...

2. Girl finds a boyfriend. This sometimes happens super fast with a guy she even met after me, yet she'll just start avoiding me instead of pursuing a relationship with me.

Again, this is weird, but maybe you are giving too much fuck boy only vibe...

3. Girl tells herself that I'm just a player and not looking for anything serious or gets really jealous about my other girls and avoids me to protect herself. I had a period earlier this year where I was posting a lot of club nights, social events, photoshoots, etc with a lot of attractive female friends on social media. I think this was mostly the trigger for this issue. I've also been able to deal with this one by just being really warm with the girl and discussing things/reassuring her.

^this can be a problem thinking you are just a fuck boy, but you can pre-empt this during the dating incorporate in your script " so i am very social and have many female friends and girls get intimadated by that, but is nothing going on just i am a very social likeble guy" or whatever in other words pre-empt the issue bring it up yourself, i used to do similar with my scheduling, i used to pre empt i was busy with script everywhere from apps bio, to interaction to dating.... Bringing up how i was busy, you can do the same with the "social media with girls pics" though i know many guys that are really good with social media, insta etc... they are not constantly having pics with women (this is a major mistake you are making) they post SOLO pics... This is kind of on you.

4. Things just fizzle out and I don't know why. The girl is really into me on the date, usually says really positive things about the sex, etc. But then is unresponsive when I'm trying to plan the next date or starts being busy all the time. This makes up about half of all instances, and is the one I want to fix.

I don't know how you text, but usually what happens is guys post sex, get to comfortable and exited and text with the Open>hard closes.... I would wonder how are you texting post sex (i call it logistical only texting for me is horrible took me 10 years to convince community to drop that crap, finally listening).......

I also had a recent girl from social circle that I had fucked from trips and parties, but couldn't get to come out on a 1-1 date. She would made plans with me and then ghosted a few hours before twice. I think she just liked me enough to sleep with me, but not enough to come out on dates - I don't think I was really her archetype at all.

^ you answer your own question, you are trying to change the stablish dynamics that she is comfortable with.... you can maybe attempt this at high point post sex bringing it up indirectly...

Diagnosis
When I first asked some wings about this, they said I have too much of a "nonchalant fuckboy vibe" and that they didn't see how I could come off as caring at all about girls with the amount of girls I was going through. But now I've toned down the volume and was focusing a lot on deep diving and making girls feel understood and validated on unique values of thiers, etc. But I'm still having issues. Recently, another wing said he thought it was a masculinity issue. That these girls just view me as a "meatstick" and don't respect me as a man. So I've been focusing on upping the dominance and control of my nonverbals and making sure to always be leading, in control of frames etc. I need to keep trying this out, but I might have still lost another girl this week (after second date).

yea i mention you could be coming across too much fuck boy, the other thing i would not worry much other that the girl may be feeling you getting needy (is subtle but they pick it up)Questions

For those of you who've had this problem, how did you overcome it?

I experienced this problem with new gen couple of years ago in another forum, i could not understand, then i came up with the 3 fuck rule... and the why i was losing girls here is the article....

What generally causes this issue and what should I focus on on dates to keep girls around?

-neediness (it is subtle) best solution was tyler had a youtube video called crawling out of neediness (gone, best video on the why), closest second resource on this is models (mark manson)... this happens with the hotter women.... There are also couple of things you could do, have them sleep over and take them in the morning for breakfast (this works well), 2 love bombardment technique I would only do the love bombardment as last resort tbh is dark seduction... - it also could be the lover provide balance.... Or it could be to you are not calibrating to a girl, for example her disney fantasy is a ceo, and you are portrain yourself like a scumbag dishwasher.... I calibrate to women if she is a high earner professional, i come accross as lover but tell her that i have a minimalistic lifestyle and dhv in some businesses/professions i am involved but greated exagerated, again after 3 fucks this should not matter.... Because she needs hope that at some point you will be together and she can see a remote pic of how that could happen (even if is not going to happen)...

I want girls that I like to get obsessed with me and make themselves available to hang out. Rather than be so apathetic. I'd like to have a couple cool consistent gfs or fwbs rather than endless 2-3-night stands.


TLDR: Hot girls that I sleep with disappear and lose interest after 1-4 dates. How can I keep them around?

Field test the solutions presented here....But don't be too mechanical sometimes wanting to keep girls around causes the opposite effect, is neediness in itself.... (but with the ubber hotter girls hard to do, i personally to be honest get the mild onitis myself to be transparent, but i can mimic stoicism since by pretending i lost them already is painful a bit, but it works for me, then i seduce them form the i lost her point mentality)

 

[Gladiator]

Other consideration: not every girl is looking for casual short-term relationships. If she's not, and she sleeps with you but then judges you're not long-term material, she is OUT.

This.

Hey thanks @Chase , really appreciate man for taking time to get back

@Gladiator,

Do you tease girls too?

I have no problem teasing at all. I maul chics when it comes to teasing. I don't really know why they push for exclusivity...

Teasing offsets a lot of the heaviness of deep diving. If it's just deep diving, it can get REALLY deep, and then the girl feels like she's found her soul mate. If you're cracking jokes every so often though and bringing her back out of it, it's a good connection, but it's not usually 'fated'.

Not sure what 'cold' and 'warm' look like for you post-lay, but my preference is usually no really deep conversation; just some questions about things I'm curious to know about her, with me nodding / acknowledging her responses, arm around her in bed, very comfortable, like we're just two good friends. If we're going to go to sleep, I'll just let myself drift off like that. Then wake up and shag her hard again sometime during the night, and/or again the next morning.

This is an example of my style of "cold" and "warm" either in person or over text. I balance teasing with some care and affection.

She: You know I've worked 16 hours yesterday and 12 hours the day before
Me: Take care.. don't let your body become like your mind.. before it's too late
She: Hahaha.. why are you so bad?
Me:
Me: Really.. take care, rest up enough.. Maybe you need a massage both inside and outside
She: Yes.. I agree
Me: I can help with inside
She: Blah blah blah

If you're having trouble with girls pushing for commitment, you can always set some FWB expectations from the get-go to try and nip that in the bud as well:

Relationship Expectations: Kill Some Impulsiveness and Set Some of These Instead

There's something in a normal relationship called the "honeymoon period." The honeymoon period is the period in the relationship where both parties are blissful and neither one feels the other can do any wrong and everything about one another seems special and amazing and great. Your girl thinks...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

That link was really helpful. Read it a couple of times to sink in lol

@POB 's post was an eye-opener (I had broken a lot of rules prior to that) and I tried doing damage control and pulled back a bit last week. We used to meet every week and she slept over and had lots of sex. Last weekend I said we'll meet during the week instead of weekends going fwd and she was a bit pissed about that and this weekend she didn't meet me.

BTW, regarding setting expectations..I don't think you've written a post about how to manage one-sided FWB that you do or maybe I couldn't find it? Could you please point me to it? If it's not out for the world.. I totally understand and respect that

I don't know how to do that but last weekend we celebrated her bday and she was very happy with all that I did..
While discussing something she said a guy asked her out; probably to make me jealous and I tried to set expectations like this.. maybe I was clumsy but I said what came to my mind
Me: Wait.. What? Are you seeing others?
She: No.. I'm not.. someone asked me out and I said no.. but should I not?
Me: No! (Changed the topic)
She: Wait.. are you going to see others?
Me: Yes.. (Changed the topic)
She: No.. tell me.. I'm serious.
Me: Yes.. I'm serious. I don't like to share. It's disrespectful.. there's nothing you lack from me..
She: But you can see?
Me: Some are ok with that and some are not.. and I understand that.. I don't like to discuss this anymore..
She: Hmm.. ok

When she was wearing shoes while leaving she said "You're selfish", I said "not really.. you know "

Cheers

 

[rockstar]

Remember, girls can't read your mind. They don't know your personal backstory, potential, etc., beyond what you reveal to them.

If she holds herself to higher standards, a guy who's good for an ONS may not be good as a potential FWB or boyfriend... unless he shows her he actually is.

Good point. Thanks for this, this has given me some things to think about. I had thought that I was giving enough "relationship potential" vibes, but the results say no, so I'll see what happens when I play that up more. When I get the drop of interest over text if often feels like a value/attraction issue, but that's probably just a biased read.

Are you banging them in all 3 dates? something does not sound right, the ones you were not into don't count...

Yes

^ this is normal, now with the stunning ones, the problem many guys have is that they get mild onitis and needy, now the onitis and neediness is very very subtle, but she can feel it.... I will give you some stuff you can test later...

Neediness isn't the problem lol. Before I was making the mistake of being too aloof/uncaring, but I've gotten a little better about that. There's only one type of girl that I get a little attachment/invested in after only 1-2 dates, and I don't get them often