FR "I don't know you that well"

[Skippy]

The approach
I approached her on campus while she was on her way to tutor middle schoolers so she gave me her number and told me to text her. One point of note is that she put down her full name.
She was texting me constantly and reinitiating conversation by text as well these past two weeks. So when she messaged me on thanksgiving, I asked her about the weekend and if she was doing any black friday shopping. I asked her out and we planned to get boba today. Before setting up the date, we played a game where if she guesses my age correctly, I buy her boba. If she guesses it wrong, she buys me boba. She guessed wrong so she offered to pay.

She texted me on the day of to make sure we were still on.

Venue 1: Boba Shop
When we meet she says she wasn't sure if she'd remember what I looked like so I ask her what distinct features she remembered. She said my hair. I tell her that for me it's her glasses.

we first sit across from each other and she talks about how she doesn't meet people like this normally so she's not used to it because she's only with her friend group and she asks me if I meet people like this normally and I say "well, I have a few more years of life experience than you so I'm used to it ".

I ask her how she got into psych. originally she was going to study cs but then decided on psychology(child development) because she wanted to have a more direct impact on people and she told me stories about how telling people to do something causes them to subconsciously feel like they're losing their freedom and so they don't do it. She tells me this story about pharma companies taking advantage of that to get consumers outraged about FDA regulations on them. There were more angry letters about FDA regulations than there were letters about vietnam(must've been during that time). In the middle, she's putting on her red jacket and I interrupt her to tell her it looks nice. When she asks about me I mention that I enjoy teaching because of the individual connection with each student.

Since she's a psych major we talk about developmental ages and that 18-23 is really considered an emerging adult. We still havent gotten our boba yet, and since she was paying I didn't want to bring it up. But eventually she realizes and we go up to order. As she's paying she says that she's surprised she still was still close in her guess. I touch her arm for some reason, I forget why. She goes to the bathroom and when she comes back I suggest we take a walk.

Venue 2 Mall
She wants to check out a mall so we walk around there. I do a little bit of incidental touch but not too much. I tell her that I liked that she liked horror movies because most girls don't and we talk about recent horror movies we've watched. Then she challenges "well we gotta watch a horror movie sometime and then we can see who's really scared"

Then we walk around to some park and she tells me a story of how once when she was little she saw some mice by a bush and they were tunneling under the bush. I joke about how she basically saw some mice getting it on and she thought it was hilarious.


Venue 3 Dessert Shop
Then she asks if I'm down for another snack and we go share a dessert. When we sit down she texts her friend and tells me she's telling her friend that she's not dead yet. I joke that she probably texted her friend that "he's really cute" and she giggles "yea I told them this dude approached me the other day. He was really cute and confident" . One of her friends is convinced that I'm probably a serial killer. hbboba tells me that guys her age wouldn't have the balls to come up to a girl like that. (fyi she's 19 and I'm 24). (To you younger guys out there learning cold approach, keep it up!)

She asks me what I'm looking for in a relationship and I say that it's cyclical because in undergrad I did a lot of casual relationships b/c of tinder and then had a girlfriend and now I'm recently single. So now I'm pretty open. She says that she can't do fwb because she doesn't think women can separate love and sex(it's true). I use this thread to talk about how a lot of times society puts judgment on people and if a man and a woman were on an island together, they'd just have sex. They wouldn't wait to get married or try and label their relationship first.
I also tell her that I'm pretty cagey about my past relationships. I used to blab about it a lot in undergrad but I learned that word travels fast even in a big city and that I also just don't feel the need to anymore. She relates with some analogy about if an alien species had a lot of knowledge, they wouldn't try to flaunt it, but they'd just keep it to themselves. So I look at her and say "yep, speak softly and carry a big stick "

Failed Pull Attempt
During this time, she asked me stories about my sociopathic friend that I had to cut off. As I'm talking about it, the topic of a tv show comes up and it turns out she watches it too but hasn't watched the last episode. I suggest we watch it together...and I see she has this strange smile on her face...So I continue talking saying because the main character is very similar to how my friend sees himself but in reality he's not. She asks how we would watch it, and I say I live nearby and she says "no I don't know you that well" with a strange smile. Before it can get too awkward, I just smile and say that's fine, maybe another time. and I ask her if she knows anyone like that and she launches into a long-ass story about some girl and I relate with another story of another girl I knew in high school. She's still keeping up the conversation long after the failed pull attempt so I think I was able to at least eliminate most of the awkwardness from that. We talk about our families and I tell her about my sister and her struggle with depression. She goes to pee again and comes back and we talk a lot more.

Ending
Finally I'm trying to figure out how to end it so I ask if she wants to finish off the dessert and she's good so I suggest we bounce and she says she has to leave soon. As we're waiting outside for her lyft she again mentions that she doesn't usually meet people like this and apologizes for any awkwardness. She says "you're probably much more experienced with this" her previous relationship was from a friend she knew for 6 years prior. I reassure her that she's doing fine. I touch her jacket on the small of her back and say 'you know what this reminds me of? Santa' She plays along. Then when her lyft arrives she gives me a hug and I say bye.

Takeaways
I probably was missing similarity here since she said "I don't know you that well' and I wasn't exactly sure how to persist. Also, I suggested the pull in a really uncalibrated way in terms of her personality. I realized later that she doesn't see herself as super spontaneous and go on crazy adventures so I should've gone with something already seeded, like a horror movie. I'm not sure if I should wait until after the winter break to follow up with her or if I should try next week because she mentioned she's really busy during finals week. As for the date structure, it was alright, but I could've incorporated more touch since many times, we're just sitting across from each other. But sitting side-by-side if the seating arrangement doesn't allow for it might be odd? I should try this at least

Any feedback is much appreciated!

 

[Watts]

One point of note is that she put down her full name.

A good sign, if done unprompted.

I'm in the habit of just asking them to do it, because I have so many random girls numbers in my phone (lots of random nicknames too), so there's the possibility she'll write out her name and some other girl will come up without something extra.

Might just mean I need to purge some numbers

When we meet she says she wasn't sure if she'd remember what I looked like so I ask her what distinct features she remembered. She said my hair. I tell her that for me it's her glasses.

I like this response, there is some intrigue there. But also you can probably come up with some other answers than glasses (personality based, not just physical). Could be reserved for in person though (or simply expanding in person, cold reading etc.).

we first sit across from each other and she talks about how she doesn't meet people like this normally so she's not used to it because she's only with her friend group and she asks me if I meet people like this normally and I say "well, I have a few more years of life experience than you so I'm used to it ".

That's one way to handle it. I see this as her being slightly uncomfortable with being "picked up", so I think going into a nice little routine about people not knowing how to connect anymore, and that it's natural and nice to walk over and say something to an attractive stranger so long as you're empathetic, and besides you HAD to say something to her (just how I would phrase it).

Also I think as a psych major, the angle about people not connecting anymore because of tech or whatever else you want to bring up would have played well.

We still havent gotten our boba yet, and since she was paying I didn't want to bring it up. But eventually she realizes and we go up to order. As she's paying she says that she's surprised she still was still close in her guess.

Me personally (and this is a style choice), would have paid (it was what $10?). I would have made it a gesture. And then add something smooth and playful, like "I always pay for a pretty girl who clearly likes me" (said with a smirk).

If you were going to be uncomfortable with her paying (and she may have been too, or may have been reacting to your discomfort), you should have planned that out in advance.

Then she challenges "well we gotta watch a horror movie sometime and then we can see who's really scared"

Sounds fun. A good opportunity for some spikes, playful games. You could just grab her and say "Boo!" (not while she has the boba tea), which would probably get her to shriek and then laugh.

Then we walk around to some park and she tells me a story of how once when she was little she saw some mice by a bush and they were tunneling under the bush. I joke about how she basically saw some mice getting it on and she thought it was hilarious.

Good to see some sexualizing, and done with humor to take off the edge. I like doing that too.

When we sit down she texts her friend and tells me she's telling her friend that she's not dead yet. I joke that she probably texted her friend that "he's really cute" and she giggles "yea I told them this dude approached me the other day. He was really cute and confident" . One of her friends is convinced that I'm probably a serial killer.

Her joking and your response was good, but being picked up really was outside her (and her friend's reality), I think this was a second sign you needed to normalize it for her, set a better frame.

Also, I think you let her name drop here, maybe replace it with hbboba or something else to preserve anonymity.

She asks me what I'm looking for in a relationship and I say that it's cyclical because in undergrad I did a lot of casual relationships b/c of tinder and then had a girlfriend and now I'm recently single. So now I'm pretty open. She says that she can't do fwb because she doesn't think women can separate love and sex(it's true).

Your belief or hers? That women can't separate love and sex. And now you're talking about "love" which is a deep topic itself.

Also probably down for casual but open for serious is a good frame to set, a good idea is to have a stock answer that fits your personality to such a common question.

I use this thread to talk about how a lot of times society puts judgment on people and if a man and a woman were on an island together, they'd just have sex. They wouldn't wait to get married or try and label their relationship first.

Did this take?

I also tell her that I'm pretty cagey about my past relationships. I used to blab about it a lot in undergrad but I learned that word travels fast even in a big city and that I also just don't feel the need to anymore.

Discreet may be a better term than "cagey".

She relates with some analogy about if an alien species had a lot of knowledge, they wouldn't try to flaunt it, but they'd just keep it to themselves. So I look at her and say "yep, speak softly and carry a big stick "

How does she relate that to not talking about your relationships?

And I think that quote was about being diplomatic and polite, but willing to throw down when necessary. I'm lost in this exchange.

I suggest we watch it together...and I see she has this strange smile on her face...So I continue talking saying because the main character is very similar to how my friend sees himself but in reality he's not. She asks how we would watch it, and I say I live nearby and she says "no I don't know you that well" with a strange smile.

Should I take it that the boba means you or her are Asian? In Asian cultures in particular this is the propensity to "mask" your negative or impolite emotions with a smile (but of course this could be happening with a person of any race). Look up "masking emotions" Paul Eckman for an example.

She may have been trying to cover up her discomfort.

Also, why not just suggest the horror movie contest she offered earlier? It was her idea, remember? You might have gotten less resistance with that, and maybe seeding it gradually, letting her think of it as her idea, by taking it a little slower.

Another thing to consider, are you really going to "pull" a girl you've had very little sexual tension with up to this point. I mean she knows (or can guess) what will (or can) happen at "your place". What up to this point makes you think she wants that?

Before it can get too awkward, I just smile and say that's fine, maybe another time. and I ask her if she knows anyone like that and she launches into a long-ass story about some girl and I relate with another story of another girl I knew in high school.

Do you think her talking like that, at length, was a sign of her discomfort? How was she speaking? Was she relaxed or did she seem anxious?

As we're waiting outside for her lyft she again mentions that she doesn't usually meet people like this and apologizes for any awkwardness. She says "you're probably much more experienced with this" her previous relationship was from a friend she knew for 6 years prior. I reassure her that she's doing fine. I touch her jacket on the small of her back and say 'you know what this reminds me of? Santa' She plays along. Then when her lyft arrives she gives me a hug and I say bye.

She seems like a nice, inexperienced girl. She probably needed you to be even more comforting and empathetic here. But some better frames earlier would have helped. Also, you being experienced could equal in her mind being a conquest.

And I would have told her she was doing amazing and I was absolutely smitten (instead of fine) in an over the top way (just a style I feel would work here, with this type of girl, and congruent to me), as a way to transition to a kiss. Would have ended on a high note.

Further, with a somewhat awkward or introverted girl, a genuine and romantic kiss close probably seems like a good seduction. As an example, I played this angle (again, congruent to me) with a ballerina (who had a similar personality) and when I did kiss her she remarked "wow" and how it was "perfect". Something to think about.

But not resolving the weirdness/awkwardness around a potential pickup (from her perspective) may linger with her.

I probably was missing similarity here since she said "I don't know you that well' and I wasn't exactly sure how to persist. Also, I suggested the pull in a really uncalibrated way in terms of her personality.

Probably true. The question is how can you allow a girl to get to know you, or feel like she knows you well in a short period of time, next time.

I think from her personality there was a more genuine angle that could have been played.

However, on a deeper level, you're asking to move to a potential sex location without setting the groundwork for sex, so she's going to object in some way regardless.

I realized later that she doesn't see herself as super spontaneous and go on crazy adventures so I should've gone with something already seeded, like a horror movie.

Ok, yeah, as above.

I'm not sure if I should wait until after the winter break to follow up with her or if I should try next week because she mentioned she's really busy during finals week.

Maybe text her something nice but unobtrusive, like a studying meme? I'd tend towards pinging her periodically (every 2 or 3 days perhaps), keeping in contact over this time. This isn't my specialty though.

As for the date structure, it was alright, but I could've incorporated more touch since many times, we're just sitting across from each other. But sitting side-by-side if the seating arrangement doesn't allow for it might be odd? I should try this at least

Maybe think about this for venue's next time, and what kind of touching they allow. Maybe face to face at the first, then next to each other a the second. And gotta have your places scouted.

Overall you had some good moments. And it's certainly still in play. But you may need to be a bit more patient with her to get her to open up. I would especially think about some good sexual frames to set though on your next date, to make her more comfortable with the possibility of sex with you. It also sounds like she's a serious student, my guess is she is rather introverted.

I hope this feedback was helpful.

If you'd like, go take a look at my recent FR, I similarly didn't set the right sexual frames early enough, and failed in my pull (though I'd say I got a bit closer than you). Read it and some of the feedback I got there for some more ideas.

And keep it up!

 

[Skippy]

That's one way to handle it. I see this as her being slightly uncomfortable with being "picked up", so I think going into a nice little routine about people not knowing how to connect anymore, and that it's natural and nice to walk over and say something to an attractive stranger so long as you're empathetic, and besides you HAD to say something to her (just how I would phrase it).

Also I think as a psych major, the angle about people not connecting anymore because of tech or whatever else you want to bring up would have played well.

Thats such a good point! Especially since as you noticed her bring it up twice. I forgot to think about attainability w

Me personally (and this is a style choice), would have paid (it was what $10?). I would have made it a gesture. And then add something smooth and playful, like "I always pay for a pretty girl who clearly likes me" (said with a smirk).

If you were going to be uncomfortable with her paying (and she may have been too, or may have been reacting to your discomfort), you should have planned that out in advance.

Ah I see. So the way I set it up initially is we were bantering over text(I hadn't asked her out just yet) but she asked my age and so I gave her 2 guesses...and then followed up with "if you get it right, I'll buy you a boba. If you get it wrong you buy me a boba :devil emoji:" . Then when we were setting up logistics she reminded me that she's going to buy boba since she 'lost' our game. So I let her because I figured it'd be some extra compliance on her part. Afterward when we got dessert I paid because we were sharing it. When we were leaving she offered to split but I just said it's no big deal and that it was very sweet of her that she bought me boba. I could've made that a gesture like you said though!

Also, I think you let her name drop here, maybe replace it with hbboba or something else to preserve anonymity.

I missed that, thanks!

Your belief or hers? That women can't separate love and sex. And now you're talking about "love" which is a deep topic itself.

Strongly her belief. I agree with it to some extent but I think it's more nuanced than that. The conversational thread changed too quickly to really delve on that though.

I use this thread to talk about how a lot of times society puts judgment on people and if a man and a woman were on an island together, they'd just have sex. They wouldn't wait to get married or try and label their relationship first.

Did this take?

My memory is a bit hazy on the exact order of topics we discussed but we didn't talk about that specifically in detail. This might've been when she said she can't do an fwb actually, but she never really commented on it or talked about society's expectations. I think she just agreed and went along with it.

Should I take it that the boba means you or her are Asian? In Asian cultures in particular this is the propensity to "mask" your negative or impolite emotions with a smile (but of course this could be happening with a person of any race). Look up "masking emotions" Paul Eckman for an example.

She may have been trying to cover up her discomfort.

Even she was a little surprised I suggested boba instead of coffee actually. She's Korean-American, was born in america and has actually never been to korea since her mom is the black sheep of the family. We both live in a part of town where boba places probably outnumber coffee shops. With a lot of my friends in undergrad though, it would be very common for us to go for boba. As for the smiling, that's true because I know I was definitely smiling to cover up my discomfort then

Also, why not just suggest the horror movie contest she offered earlier? It was her idea, remember? You might have gotten less resistance with that, and maybe seeding it gradually, letting her think of it as her idea, by taking it a little slower.

Another thing to consider, are you really going to "pull" a girl you've had very little sexual tension with up to this point. I mean she knows (or can guess) what will (or can) happen at "your place". What up to this point makes you think she wants that?

I think you're right this would've been a much better idea. So when you say seed it gradually and take it a little slower do you mean I should take that thread and come back to it a little later(maybe talk about some more horror movies?) and take it slower by waiting to suggest the pull for later?

And yea there was not much sexual tension. This is likely a bad habit I picked up from online dating, where if a girl from tinder showed this much interest, I would've most certainly pulled her. Usually what I'd do on tinder dates is just some minor incidental touch and leading and that'd be enough to pull. I'd have no trouble with pulling (although this probably explains why I'd get a TON of LMR)

I'm realizing that with the dates I've had off of cold approach, this doesn't work so easily. Besides using touch, I'm still pretty new to generating sexual tension because it seems like it's very context specific. I guess something like Alek's sex talk routines would be useful.

Before it can get too awkward, I just smile and say that's fine, maybe another time. and I ask her if she knows anyone like that and she launches into a long-ass story about some girl and I relate with another story of another girl I knew in high school.

Do you think her talking like that, at length, was a sign of her discomfort? How was she speaking? Was she relaxed or did she seem anxious?

Her baseline behavior was actually very talkative so it didn't seem out of the ordinary. I was surprised that she wasn't more anxious after the failed pull attempt because another girl had basically bailed at that point.

She seems like a nice, inexperienced girl. She probably needed you to be even more comforting and empathetic here. But some better frames earlier would have helped. Also, you being experienced could equal in her mind being a conquest.

And I would have told her she was doing amazing and I was absolutely smitten (instead of fine) in an over the top way (just a style I feel would work here, with this type of girl, and congruent to me), as a way to transition to a kiss. Would have ended on a high note.

That's a great point. I was thinking about this too mechanically/technically and overlooked attainability

Probably true. The question is how can you allow a girl to get to know you, or feel like she knows you well in a short period of time, next time.

I think from her personality there was a more genuine angle that could have been played.

However, on a deeper level, you're asking to move to a potential sex location without setting the groundwork for sex, so she's going to object in some way regardless.

Yes, this is something I'm thinking about now. I tried to talk more about my family and open up myself afterwards because she was doing probably 70% of the talking. I've heard this occasionally from girls before in different contexts so I guess I know what one sticking point is to work on.

Maybe think about this for venue's next time, and what kind of touching they allow. Maybe face to face at the first, then next to each other a the second. And gotta have your places scouted.

Overall you had some good moments. And it's certainly still in play. But you may need to be a bit more patient with her to get her to open up. I would especially think about some good sexual frames to set though on your next date, to make her more comfortable with the possibility of sex with you. It also sounds like she's a serious student, my guess is she is rather introverted.

I hope this feedback was helpful.

If you'd like, go take a look at my recent FR, I similarly didn't set the right sexual frames early enough, and failed in my pull (though I'd say I got a bit closer than you). Read it and some of the feedback I got there for some more ideas.

And keep it up!

Will do! Thanks so much for the thoughtful analysis, this was incredibly helpful

 

[M_Ronin]

This doesnt look like a fail to me at all. You two will meet up again right?

I am of the opinion that actions speak louder than words. She needed to know you are not a psycho. If you have an Instagram with you doing normal stuff, you might want to share it with her. Maybe if you could run into one of your friends, or even a store clerk that you exchanged pleasantries hence she would have a clue that youre an established trustable guy she would come to Trust you easily. I think you can even go to a restaurant and be warm to staff, hence you convey that you are a person with compassion. Tipping a beggar, saving a mailman from a dog, petting a cat, bantering with strangers on a coffee line etc. You get the idea.

Maybe even talking on the phone with your mother or father or something, as well...

 

[Watts]

Thats such a good point! Especially since as you noticed her bring it up twice. I forgot to think about attainability w

Yes. I believe that's how Chase describes it and certainly one way to look at it.

Ah I see. So the way I set it up initially is we were bantering over text(I hadn't asked her out just yet) but she asked my age and so I gave her 2 guesses...and then followed up with "if you get it right, I'll buy you a boba. If you get it wrong you buy me a boba :devil emoji:" . Then when we were setting up logistics she reminded me that she's going to buy boba since she 'lost' our game. So I let her because I figured it'd be some extra compliance on her part. Afterward when we got dessert I paid because we were sharing it. When we were leaving she offered to split but I just said it's no big deal and that it was very sweet of her that she bought me boba. I could've made that a gesture like you said though!

This is still good. You found a way to balance it out, and compliment her.

Notice though in my way I also playfully accuse her of "clearly likes me". I'll do things like that with the intention of responding that I also "clearly like her" if she genuinely smiles or seems keen. In other words, closing the emotional distance between us.

I'm curious what you mean by "extra compliance on her part."? Does her paying do more than demonstrate compliance to you? Do you view it as a yes ladder type situation or sunk cost fallacy i.e. an unconscious "well I paid for his boba, so might as well let him kiss me."? This is more a curiosity on my part, I'm not sure how other people view that.

I missed that, thanks!

No problem.

Strongly her belief. I agree with it to some extent but I think it's more nuanced than that. The conversational thread changed too quickly to really delve on that though.

Then you know it's something you're going to have to deal with before sex, or else trigger ASD or at least buyer's remorse. I like Teevster's purity gambit for that too, since pure is redefined as following ones desire as opposed to without a social stain or shame really (which in this case would be related to a madonna/whore type situation where only the "pure virginal madonnas" would be worthy of love).

Give it a read https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/sex-talk-the-purity-gambit.21870/

My memory is a bit hazy on the exact order of topics we discussed but we didn't talk about that specifically in detail. This might've been when she said she can't do an fwb actually, but she never really commented on it or talked about society's expectations. I think she just agreed and went along with it.

Another way to deal with the fwb argument (that I have used) is to argue against labels. I say something along the lines of:

"Personally I wouldn't want to label someone as a "friends with benefits" and then pretend I don't care about them, or try not to "catch feelings", or not open up to them with emotional intimacy. Similarly, I wouldn't want to wait to care about, or connect with emotionally someone, until after we're "boyfriend and girlfriend". I'd rather just do my best to be kind, understanding and compassionate to person that's next to me, without having to put them in a specific category, and I'd like to do that, without restriction, from day one."

Taking it one step deeper, when she says she can't do fwb she means she wants to feel you're affectionate towards her and value her if the two of you are being sexually intimate. This doesn't necessarily mean monogamous. But if she isn't going to demand monogamy of you for a certain time (not, indefinitely, years and years obviously), then you're going to have to continually satisfy her emotional needs in this domain. When you mess it up, then she'll demand the commitment. Just understand that's what you'll be dealing with if you want her for something other than sex one time.

Even she was a little surprised I suggested boba instead of coffee actually. She's Korean-American, was born in america and has actually never been to korea since her mom is the black sheep of the family. We both live in a part of town where boba places probably outnumber coffee shops. With a lot of my friends in undergrad though, it would be very common for us to go for boba. As for the smiling, that's true because I know I was definitely smiling to cover up my discomfort then

These cultural norms do play a part. And also introversion, consciousness, need for affection. Of course, it's only a starting point, always be ready to course correct.

And good! I'm glad you were empathetic enough to feel that with her!

I think you're right this would've been a much better idea. So when you say seed it gradually and take it a little slower do you mean I should take that thread and come back to it a little later(maybe talk about some more horror movies?) and take it slower by waiting to suggest the pull for later?

Yes to the first. And to the second, whenever it felt comfortable (if it even would on that date, but could be sooner or later that date too).

And that's also a good idea, like find out her favorite horror movie(s), just dance around that topic from time to time. Or future project with "we'll need snacks" or figure out the rules who you judge the contest etc. Anything that gets her thinking about it more and makes it more real, also distracting her a little from the fact that all this means she'll be alone with you.

And yea there was not much sexual tension. This is likely a bad habit I picked up from online dating, where if a girl from tinder showed this much interest, I would've most certainly pulled her. Usually what I'd do on tinder dates is just some minor incidental touch and leading and that'd be enough to pull. I'd have no trouble with pulling (although this probably explains why I'd get a TON of LMR)

I'm realizing that with the dates I've had off of cold approach, this doesn't work so easily. Besides using touch, I'm still pretty new to generating sexual tension because it seems like it's very context specific. I guess something like Alek's sex talk routines would be useful.

Sounds reasonable.

Her baseline behavior was actually very talkative so it didn't seem out of the ordinary. I was surprised that she wasn't more anxious after the failed pull attempt because another girl had basically bailed at that point.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying. I'd also say change in pitch as well, anything that might of signaled anxiety. Just something to pay attention to (her emotional state).

That's a great point. I was thinking about this too mechanically/technically and overlooked attainability

Yes.

Yes, this is something I'm thinking about now. I tried to talk more about my family and open up myself afterwards because she was doing probably 70% of the talking. I've heard this occasionally from girls before in different contexts so I guess I know what one sticking point is to work on.

I mentioned that not so much as general critique (because I don't know how well enough from what you said how you are in that way), but as a way for you to have closed some emotional distance and sealed the date with a kiss.

But for a general help, perhaps share more of your feelings on things. Not just your family but feelings around them and relatable to feelings she's likely to have (and learn these emotional responses of hers). Or tell stories that show you experience, feelings, perspective on things. I think "Deep diving" is in part this. Perhaps look that up.

Will do! Thanks so much for the thoughtful analysis, this was incredibly helpful

Glad to help! Good luck!

 

[Skippy]

This doesnt look like a fail to me at all. You two will meet up again right?

I think so. she was flirty on text afterward. But maybe not until after the break.

I am of the opinion that actions speak louder than words. She needed to know you are not a psycho. If you have an Instagram with you doing normal stuff, you might want to share it with her. Maybe if you could run into one of your friends, or even a store clerk that you exchanged pleasantries hence she would have a clue that youre an established trustable guy she would come to Trust you easily. I think you can even go to a restaurant and be warm to staff, hence you convey that you are a person with compassion. Tipping a beggar, saving a mailman from a dog, petting a cat, bantering with strangers on a coffee line etc. You get the idea.

Maybe even talking on the phone with your mother or father or something, as well...

Interesting idea to use actions instead of words. I hadn't thought of that!

I'm curious what you mean by "extra compliance on her part."? Does her paying do more than demonstrate compliance to you? Do you view it as a yes ladder type situation or sunk cost fallacy i.e. an unconscious "well I paid for his boba, so might as well let him kiss me."? This is more a curiosity on my part, I'm not sure how other people view that.

Her paying would be more compliance than just her showing up to the date. I've never actually thought to distinguish between different forms of compliance like that. My guess is it would be a bit of both but probably more sunk cost fallacy because she's investing her resources(time/energy/money). On the other hand, if she was following my lead then I'd say it's more yes ladder type.

 

[Watts]

Her paying would be more compliance than just her showing up to the date. I've never actually thought to distinguish between different forms of compliance like that. My guess is it would be a bit of both but probably more sunk cost fallacy because she's investing her resources(time/energy/money). On the other hand, if she was following my lead then I'd say it's more yes ladder type.

You'll have to forgive me because I'm coming back after a long absence. Yes, I see the point of it, even the "Ben Franklin Effect" where you get someone do you a favor and afterwards they are invested in your outcomes and tend to help you more.

There is certainly some logic to it. But there is also a person feeling like they are doing a lot for a little or being used. So I think it probably needs to be balanced.

I'd say I like compliance as the girl following my lead, as a universal, as well as agreeing with me or accepting my frames. Getting her to pay for things probably not as much, but that's because it can trigger negative emotions I feel (and negative perceptions, like you're broke), also not really my style as a slightly older guy with generally younger women. But anyway, you handled it fine by then picking up for the dessert later. That's a fine socially acceptable way to create some balance (and prevent a "taking advantage of" feeling).

 

[Skippy]

You'll have to forgive me because I'm coming back after a long absence. Yes, I see the point of it, even the "Ben Franklin Effect" where you get someone do you a favor and afterwards they are invested in your outcomes and tend to help you more.

There is certainly some logic to it. But there is also a person feeling like they are doing a lot for a little or being used. So I think it probably needs to be balanced.

Yea, it's like the Ben Franklin Effect! It was unclear b/c in my mind I used compliance and investment interchangeably. I think outright getting her to pay for things is risky because as you said it could trigger negative emotions and if she refuses then you've generated negative compliance for no reason. But if she herself offers any investment, I'd take her up on it and reward her for it with extra warmth/affection/reciprocation.

I'm pretty new with using compliance+investment so I've been experimenting with it a little bit lately. In this case we played a guessing game, she lost, and then we texted back and forth for about a week and then I suggested we grab boba and she offered to buy me boba since she lost the guessing game. I told her she was an angel :angel emoji: (rewarding) and I made sure to get the next tab.

A watered-down(no pun intended) version of "getting her to buy you a drink" would just be asking to try her drink, which I didn't do but probably would have otherwise.

 

[M_Ronin]

I think so. she was flirty on text afterward. But maybe not until after the break.



Interesting idea to use actions instead of words. I hadn't thought of that!

Just make sure the behaviour is integrated though. Lest you conjure the opposite of intended effect through incongruity. İn other words don't do to impress.

 

[Watts]

Yea, it's like the Ben Franklin Effect! It was unclear b/c in my mind I used compliance and investment interchangeably. I think outright getting her to pay for things is risky because as you said it could trigger negative emotions and if she refuses then you've generated negative compliance for no reason. But if she herself offers any investment, I'd take her up on it and reward her for it with extra warmth/affection/reciprocation.

I'm pretty new with using compliance+investment so I've been experimenting with it a little bit lately. In this case we played a guessing game, she lost, and then we texted back and forth for about a week and then I suggested we grab boba and she offered to buy me boba since she lost the guessing game. I told her she was an angel :angel emoji: (rewarding) and I made sure to get the next tab.

A watered-down(no pun intended) version of "getting her to buy you a drink" would just be asking to try her drink, which I didn't do but probably would have otherwise.

Sounds good! I'm rehashing a lot of things at the moment and if I have some more insights around this, we can talk more about it.

Keep the thread updated with whatever else happens with her. If you want to and feel comfortable add the texts, if not, just when (and if) you guys have another date!

Good luck!

 

[Skippy]

Updates. This was from a while ago. She texted me a bit before winter break started.


Her: I've still got a math final on monday but I was wondering if you were free next week? I wanted to see you again before you leave for [hometown]
Me: Thanks for the wishes. Unfortunately, I'm leaving tomorrow night but we can see each other when I get back! go crush that math final for now!
Her: I see, I hope you have a safe flight. I look forward to seeing you when you get back.

Then I texted her on christmas asking her about some book she was reading and what the break was like. She started responding only once a day, but she'd still try to continue the convo. (I matched her frequency) Eventually convo died off, but intentionally.

Then I texted her when I got back from the break asking her how the new semester was and she didn't reply. I thought about following up with her but decided against it. Why? I'm honestly not sure. I mean she was cute and fun to talk to but not the type that gets me excited and nervous. And yeah I know the learning experience is important. I'm rethinking whether I should reinitiate though because I just find it hard to believe that she would ghost me like that, she was the one who seemed keen on meeting up again.