FR I don't understand this rejection

[Developing_Man]

So I went on a date last night with this Nurse.

We hit it off, I sexually escalated perfect, we were making out an in each others arm at a bar.

I was half joking about me being a dog, and wanting to take her home, but she said she wanted a second date.




This was our text after we parted ways.

Me:

Lol... I may be wishing I was home with u
Sweet dreams
And cya soon
Her:
Ahahah yeah figure out date 2
Then I respond in the morning:

• Lool, whats your favourite cuisine?

And then I stated:

Wait hold on we discussed this already... let's hit up the video game arcade this weekend.



And then 6 hours later she sends:

Ahah sorry for the late reply Sodiq I really enjoyed meeting you but I have a sinking feeling this won't end up in a truly romantic direction. I think at our age we're considering that. But I would really appreciate if you sent me your half the bill giving how things went down. Total was ~77$ if you want to etransfer me 35 or 40$ that would be greatly appreciated.
- from one young millennial to another just trying to figure it out

When I read between the lines, it could be i am trying to treat her as a short term thing as joke but seems like she wants something more longterm and real.

 

[fog]

ah yesh. you're continuing to hit the gas pedal rather than giving her room to breathe

she can tell youre going for the lay and not going for her as a person

the biggest indicator here was you TELLING her the logistics. rather than figuring it out WITH HER. is like wait he doesnt even care about what i think or feel... he just wants to get laid

this was further exasperated by you continuing along a logistical thread after a sleep. this never works, it feels too squeezy to the girls. better to engage in some unrelated chit chat then get back into it

overall, i woulda taken some time to chat with her through text...get some good vibes going....while not taking advantage of every opportunity to show interest...then bring up the possibility of a 2nd date

 

[Will_V]

Bunch of things here to work on.

So I went on a date last night with this Nurse.

We hit it off, I sexually escalated perfect, we were making out an in each others arm at a bar.

I was half joking about me being a dog, and wanting to take her home, but she said she wanted a second date.

Making out is a great way to blow all the tension and have her question herself after she gets back and her emotions calm down and maybe Sally her bestest gives a second opinion on you. Unless you pull right away (and even then it's tricky) best not to start with that imo until at home.

Also always pull on a high note, sounds like you probably didn't have enough tension, bubble and sexual frames which made her whip out the idea of a second date. Also the pull sounded a little awkward (though it really depends on the delivery) and might have triggered asd.

This was our text after we parted ways.

Me:

Lol... I may be wishing I was home with u
Sweet dreams
And cya soon

That's a pretty clingy text and what you would hope to receive from a girl who is desperate for you.

You're basically setting yourself up as the chaser here, she didn't give you what you want and you're piling on the investment. You value took a nose dive.

Her:
Ahahah yeah figure out date 2

Whenever women treat you like you're interviewing or competing for something it's gone badly wrong and tells you that your frame is shot.

Then I respond in the morning:

• Lool, whats your favourite cuisine?

So with that piss poor reply from her you start again with the investment, implying you want to take her to some restaurant or other based on her own preferences. That's a huge reward (personally I'd never take a girl to a restaurant until she was my girlfriend) that you are offering for nothing. Your 'value' just hit the ground at terminal velocity.

Also what fog said about starting off with logistics.

And then I stated:

Wait hold on we discussed this already... let's hit up the video game arcade this weekend.

Faux pas with the forgetting, and then basically dropping the value of what you're offering through the floor, that's going to make her think 'he just offered me cuisine and fine dining, now he wants to play video games?' and you'd be lucky to get things back on an even keel after that even if everything else was on par.

And then 6 hours later she sends:

Ahah sorry for the late reply Sodiq I really enjoyed meeting you but I have a sinking feeling this won't end up in a truly romantic direction. I think at our age we're considering that. But I would really appreciate if you sent me your half the bill giving how things went down. Total was ~77$ if you want to etransfer me 35 or 40$ that would be greatly appreciated.
- from one young millennial to another just trying to figure it out

That gives you a small clue about how she sees you now, she calls you a young millenial like her, in the frame of not being able to pay for stuff. First of all she's indicating that you don't have any kind of authoritative frame and secondly that you come across to her as just another young person struggling to pay the bills. i.e. you are just another one in the crowd.

When I read between the lines, it could be i am trying to treat her as a short term thing as joke but seems like she wants something more longterm and real.

What seems to me is that:
a) You did not come across smoothly as a sexual dude (especially with the pull and the texting)
b) she got a nasty hangover from all the kissing
c) Your texting sank the ship entirely

Well done on getting her to pay for everything, that actually suggests she wasn't looking at you as a provider and wanted you as a fuckboy but sadly she ended up changing her mind.

I'd suggest working more on setting sexual frames, building tension, and pulling more smoothly.

Best of luck next time!

 

[Developing_Man]

the biggest indicator here was you TELLING her the logistics. rather than figuring it out WITH HER. is like wait he doesnt even care about what i think or feel... he just wants to get laid

this was further exasperated by you continuing along a logistical thread after a sleep. this never works, it feels too squeezy to the girls. better to engage in some unrelated chit chat then get back into it

overall, i woulda taken some time to chat with her through text...get some good vibes going....while not taking advantage of every opportunity to show interest...then bring up the possibility of a 2nd date

we already discussed the possibility of the second date at the bar so I thought we wre on the same page on the direction we wanted to go.

the biggest indicator here was you TELLING her the logistics. rather than figuring it out WITH HER. is like wait he doesnt even care about what i think or feel... he just wants to get laid

My biggest problem in my 2 years of dating in Toronto was not being able to sexually escalate so I guess I swung the other way and was too forward.

Making out is a great way to blow all the tension and have her question herself after she gets back and her emotions calm down and maybe Sally her bestest gives a second opinion on you. Unless you pull right away (and even then it's tricky) best not to start with that imo until at home.

Ok, i thought it was a good thing, a sign I escalated properly.

Ahahah yeah figure out date 2

In my mind I was being light-hearted about going home and being a dog, but yeah I didn't read into this comment about her ASD triggering.

Developing_Man said:
Her:
Ahahah yeah figure out date 2

Whenever women treat you like you're interviewing or competing for something it's gone badly wrong and tells you that your frame is shot.

Developing_Man said:
Then I respond in the morning:

• Lool, whats your favourite cuisine?

So with that piss poor reply from her you start again with the investment, implying you want to take her to some restaurant or other based on her own preferences. That's a huge reward (personally I'd never take a girl to a restaurant until she was my girlfriend) that you are offering for nothing. Your 'value' just hit the ground at terminal velocity.

Also what fog said about starting off with logistics.

Developing_Man said:
And then I stated:

Wait hold on we discussed this already... let's hit up the video game arcade this weekend.

Faux pas with the forgetting, and then basically dropping the value of what you're offering through the floor, that's going to make her think 'he just offered me cuisine and fine dining, now he wants to play video games?' and you'd be lucky to get things back on an even keel after that even if everything else was on par.

I kinda viewed this as light hearted and fun but clearly you and the girl saw this as an indicaiton of me displaying low-value.
I guess I don't fully understand that concept. I guess you guys are saying I invested too much into her too early... I was attempting to be just light-hearted.

Developing_Man said:
And then 6 hours later she sends:

Ahah sorry for the late reply Sodiq I really enjoyed meeting you but I have a sinking feeling this won't end up in a truly romantic direction. I think at our age we're considering that. But I would really appreciate if you sent me your half the bill giving how things went down. Total was ~77$ if you want to etransfer me 35 or 40$ that would be greatly appreciated.
- from one young millennial to another just trying to figure it out

That gives you a small clue about how she sees you now, she calls you a young millenial like her, in the frame of not being able to pay for stuff. First of all she's indicating that you don't have any kind of authoritative frame and secondly that you come across to her as just another young person struggling to pay the bills. i.e. you are just another one in the crowd.

- Thats bs, I am a software engineer and she knows it... I have had girls pay for dates for me many times and I always pay for the next one, we always agree on how we pay and I told her I got the next date. And I reached for my card she beat me to it.

- Anyways it looks like I lost frame and I did not read into the frame properly and I showed over investment.
- This was the fastest physcial escalation I have ever done and I thought it would be too much.
- I did escalate at a similiar speed before, not as fast but in those instances the 2 girls stated they wanted a relationship,
this current girl and I did not have a similar conversation, maybe it's necessary to not trigger the anti-slut defence.

 

[Will_V]

OK that clarifies a few things.

My biggest problem in my 2 years of dating in Toronto was not being able to sexually escalate so I guess I swung the other way and was too forward.

Yeah seems the escalation and pull was not quite where it needed to be. Especially when there's a background of being a quiet/shy/nice guy (not sure if this is the case for you, but seems like it might be), even when your motivation and actions change, it's going to take a while to shake off the first impression and the resulting congruency issues.

Ok, i thought it was a good thing, a sign I escalated properly.

It can be done if you are very careful to maintain frame - keeping the kiss short, pulling back first, push/pulling or teasing her to keep her ego in check etc. And works better on younger girls who are more excitable and wanting to prove themselves.

I just avoid it during dates as I prefer a slow burn tension-building seduction and it messes with that.

In my mind I was being light-hearted about going home and being a dog, but yeah I didn't read into this comment about her ASD triggering.
I kinda viewed this as light hearted and fun but clearly you and the girl saw this as an indicaiton of me displaying low-value.

Any subtle effects such as irony or lightheartedness is hard to get through on text, always best to expect that she will take what you text literally. Even teasing can backfire and cause her to ghost if she can't quite get a read on what's behind it. Best to save it for when she can read everything she needs to know off your face.

- Thats bs, I am a software engineer and she knows it... I have had girls pay for dates for me many times and I always pay for the next one, we always agree on how we pay and I told her I got the next date. And I reached for my card she beat me to it.

Lol my mistake, I had the wrong idea of what a millennial was, thought it meant someone much younger. So her saying 'young millennial' means something totally different.

That makes a lot of things clearer - her paying for things, her ASD, and her being generally very sensitive toward whether things develop along a serious path.

So what it looks like to me now that I've added 10 years onto everyones ages, is that she's around that point where she needs to settle down and is looking for provider type guys. She saw you as a provider but for whatever reason was happy to chip in (maybe she's well off financially or wants a real 50-50 style relationship or is just has the wrong idea about what impresses serious guys). She goes to the date, things move way too fast for her idea of how this relationship should develop, and she gets ice cold feet about the whole thing.

- I did escalate at a similiar speed before, not as fast but in those instances the 2 girls stated they wanted a relationship,
this current girl and I did not have a similar conversation, maybe it's necessary to not trigger the anti-slut defence.

Especially with women who are at the point of needing to settle down, it's very important to set clear frames. Compared to younger girls they are a lot more self-aware, have a clearer idea of what they want, know they don't have a lot of time to waste, and are much more critical of prospects that don't line up with what they are looking for. You can't come in looking like a provider prospect and turn it around with some sexual escalation unless she happens to be really in the mood to get laid.

The main thing needed here was to disqualify yourself as a boyfriend/husband/provider, make sure your presentation doesn't send the wrong message, build a personal connection around exciting, adventurous, non-providery commonalities, and introduce plenty of sexual frames - talking about sex, using lots of touch, dominant eye contact, etc.

If you want a stereotype for how you needed to present herself, it would be her free-spirited yoga teacher, someone who makes her feel carefree and good about herself, but isn't there to pay her bills or offer her a white picket fence.

Telling her you're a software developer is probably a bad move. I'm one and whenever I tell anyone about it (man or woman) they react as if I must be getting Google level paychecks. Software in general has a stereotype of nerds who make a lot of money and aren't exciting. I never tell girls I'm trying to seduce (I say I'm a writer, which is also true, but comes across totally different).

 

[Developing_Man]

Ok, I will calibrate and slow down on the escalation, I will keep it in mind, the important thing for me was, I am not shy about it anymore.

Texting = high probability of subtexts being lost, noted

So what it looks like to me now that I've added 10 years onto everyones ages, is that she's around that point where she needs to settle down and is looking for provider type guys. She saw you as a provider but for whatever reason was happy to chip in (maybe she's well off financially or wants a real 50-50 style relationship or is just has the wrong idea about what impresses serious guys). She goes to the date, things move way too fast for her idea of how this relationship should develop, and she gets ice cold feet about the whole thing.

Especially with women who are at the point of needing to settle down, it's very important to set clear frames. Compared to younger girls they are a lot more self-aware, have a clearer idea of what they want, know they don't have a lot of time to waste, and are much more critical of prospects that don't line up with what they are looking for. You can't come in looking like a provider prospect and turn it around with some sexual escalation unless she happens to be really in the mood to get laid.

Yeah were both 31. And yeah you know what your right i think I need to bring my dating objective into the situation and understand the dynamics.
I was in a 10 year relationship and now I am open to a new one after 2 years.
I definitely want something more serious... ultimately i want someone who can enjoy doing the big stuff, small stuff, by silly with handle life challenges and raise kids that will have a high impact on the world

I thought she was a good candidate, she is a hustler, thinks outside the box.

Also, I understand the software engineer stereotype... the thing is I don't fit into that traditional box. I have alot of charisma, and i spent my upbrining playing sports so I am very athletic and I am in the gym, I gained 20 lbs this year. And I knew she liked that because I took off my jacket and she say my upper body and I saw her swoon a bit and play with her hair.

SO yeah my question is, how do you think I should run my game?

 

[Will_V]

Yeah were both 31. And yeah you know what your right i think I need to bring my dating objective into the situation and understand the dynamics.
I was in a 10 year relationship and now I am open to a new one after 2 years.
I definitely want something more serious... ultimately i want someone who can enjoy doing the big stuff, small stuff, by silly with handle life challenges and raise kids that will have a high impact on the world
I thought she was a good candidate, she is a hustler, thinks outside the box.

Also, I understand the software engineer stereotype... the thing is I don't fit into that traditional box. I have alot of charisma, and i spent my upbrining playing sports so I am very athletic and I am in the gym, I gained 20 lbs this year. And I knew she liked that because I took off my jacket and she say my upper body and I saw her swoon a bit and play with her hair.

SO yeah my question is, how do you think I should run my game?

First thing is to make sure you are in the right place for it. You sound like you have a solid job and take care of yourself, but have you done all the things you want to do when it comes to having fun with women? If you haven't it will cause a lot of problems with frame - it's hard to be the rock solid leader when you're wondering if this is the situation you actually want.

Chase wrote a great article on what to look for: https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-screen-wife-and-mother

As far as the game itself, I've never married but my relationships have usually developed naturally from fairly fast sex to spending more and more time doing other things together because we both enjoy it. I am much more aware and scrutinizing of her as soon as I know its getting into a relationship and I might pull the plug if she's just not the girl for me, e.g. she's a bit crazy or has an inconsistent attitude. I tend to simply let things develop based on what she pushes for and either accept or reject her attempts to integrate herself with me. Girls will always find ways to do it if they want to - for example one would buy stuff for me she thought I would like or need, also would ask a lot about various things that she knew I liked to talk about and listen intently. My longest relationship she wanted to learn all about sailing to spend more time with me and that really got us close together. If you let things develop slowly, you get the vibe after a while as to what she is gravitating toward - is she desperate/pushy/inconsistent with an agenda and an ego, or is she happily falling into her role and calmly putting her faith in you?

As for the approach and first dates, it's not too different for me - I will expect that girls who I get into an LTR with will quickly 'click' and we'll have great conversation right away, if that doesn't happen it's pretty much never going to change ime.

I guess I feel like I am too good of a judge of character to have any absolute rules or processes for what a woman needs to conform to for things to develop beyond just sex. If there's any talent that I have it's in being able to read and understand people. I just know very soon when there's the right attitude - the right mix of innocence and worldliness, the right mix of submissiveness and gameness, the right level of honesty and intelligence, the right level of conforming to me vs. making me strive to be better. All the times I've got it wrong have been when I ignored my intuitions. And I always know when someone is hiding something from me, even if I don't know what it is.

So I usually just treat all girls the same way at the start - and then let things go where they are inclined, sometimes testing a little, sometimes going a little too far in one direction or the other, letting her show different sides of herself to me and seeing if it always stays the same.

In the case of your situation, one thing I would say is that there's no need to be making very fast escalations like that, if she really does like you she won't make it difficult for you to take her to bed as long as you keep the ball rolling forward. And at worst you'll create cognitive dissonance and she'll get confused and start categorizing you a certain way or regretting her behavior.

But to reach that level of chill while maintaining a sexual and dominant frame is something that comes with experience and abundance. Only once you know you can get girls like her for sex, and you feel the real desire for something more despite having all the fun you want, that's when you will find it very easy just to let things shift onto a slightly different path without any neediness, and then naturally she will feel the need to be the one to prove herself to you and not the other way around.