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Health  In Defence of Carbs, (what do you crave?)

Will KZ

Space Monkey
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The low-carb and Paleo diet appears to be sweeping the online self-help world, and it's spread here. Lo and behold, I come in defence of the maligned carbohydrate. Before I get started, let me give some questions for you to ponder:

1 - if you ate a diet that solely consisted of fruits, and a multivitamin for anything lacking and a healthy protein shake for protein, do you think you would become fat? (I said fat, not necessarily healthy)

2 - Do you believe that we should eat foods we have evolved to eat, and if so, do you think our attraction to sugary things like fruit and honey, and our ability to digest it so easily, comes from millions of years of evolving to want stuff that's bad for us?

3 -Are you on a paleo or low-carb diet and dealing with things like sluggishness, brain-fog, low libido, and if so, do you take that as a sign that you need to push on and "adapt", or maybe to reconsider your current diet?

4 - Do you think human kind spread across almost the entire land filled section of Earth without having bodies able to adapt very quickly to different climates, landscapes, and food, or is it more likely we have to wait millions of years to adapt to these things and survive by sheer luck in the meantime?

For me the answers to the above questions are obvious, but I'm sure there will be disagreements. Yes, your body can turn fat and protein into glucose without carbs. Yes, Inuits don't eat them. Your body can also turn protein and sugar into fat. But glucose fuels the brain - do you think it's a good idea to only give your brain minimal fuel? Ever get a headache after doing difficult mental work like playing a tough chess game or solving a complex puzzle? Do you want water and food afterwards or eat some in preparation before? In an unrelated thread a guy here called Drck told me he believed the ideal diet is 20-30% carbs, more for an athlete/weightlifter. It might be the ideal for him, and others, 20-30% seems kind of low, but probably ok, better than very-low carb and ketosis. In this article - http://perfecthealthdiet.com/category/d ... peat-diet/ - half attacking and half defending the top sugar advocate Ray Peat phd, paleo-style nutritionists argue that 30% is ideal for longevity, 60% for libido. So maybe the golden mean would be around 45%?

On to the different types of carbs. Two main types, complex and simple. In the paleo world complex carbs seem to be the preferred verion - potatoes, sweet potatoes, maybe white/brown rice, starch basically. For me I prefer fruit and the simple carb. Starch contains glucose but little fructose. That is why paleo people love it, but fructose actually slows down the absorption of sugar into the body. It is better for diabetics and for preventing diabetes. I also like honey - I did low-carb for a while, but could never resist wolfing down honey. Which I will cover in the next paragraph on trusting yourself. But firstly, what do our nearest genetic primates eat? A lot of sugar, in the form of fruit. Some protein from insects and other small monkeys and eggs (fruitarians always neglect that part of chimps/bonobo monkeys diet). If they had agriculture they might also eat dairy or some animals milk they could digest, but dairy is a different topic.

Ok, instead of getting too scientific, I'm simply going to ask why don't you trust your body. Does it crave things it shouldn't? Sure, probably. But can you examine those things to see what you really need? I used to occasionally crave sausages. Now sausages are a pretty poor meat source, and filled with all kinds of additives and low-quality meat, so in theory my body shouldn't really need them. I decided to look at the ingredients of my favourite brand, and I saw that the second highest ingredient was sodium. And I don't have much salt in my diet, so I realised my body was craving salt. Since upping my salt intake I don't get those sausage cravings anymore. Psychosomatic? Maybe, maybe not. I crave Mcdonalds sometimes too, I think that's just addictive chemicals in the burgers though, your body isn't foolproof. But if you're craving a super unhealthy sugary soda, can you examine what is it your body is really after? Sugar? Caffeine? Your body knows what it needs, you've just trained it to associate those needs with certain things, but you could always switch soda for orange juice or something better, or tea and coffee if caffeine is what you truly need.

For me fruit will always be superior to starch, and then natural starches like potatoes will be superior to man-made starches like bread, but you have to make do with your budget. But don't wolf down big loaves of bread, feel like crap and complain that carbs are the problem, you wouldn't feel that way with fruit. Instead of avoiding carbs, maybe just increase the quality. Don't get me started on most vegetables though, sure they have some health benefits, but they don't really have enough calories to give you any energy, and there's probably a good reason your body doesn't like the taste so much. So forget where I said I prefer natural carbs, just fruit, raw honey, a bit of starch, and minimal vegetables...

If anyone is interested, researchers at McGill did an experiment with 3 babies, letting them choose their own food from a wide variety for several months, most of them started age 6 months and had little to no experience with food outside their mothers milk. The babies had no instructions on what to eat and complete autonomy on choice (though they needed help getting fed). The diets are high in cow milk, fruit, and bone marrow, moderate in muscle meat and organ meat, moderate to low in starch, and low in vegetables, with differences between the 3 (they ate the meat raw or rare, but not well-cooked, good taste). The experiment was not considered conclusive, but the babies all appeared healthy and happy after the experiment, suggesting they'd been eating well. For me a diet chosen on instinct may well be a better representative of what our ancestors would have chosen to eat if they had access, rather than speculation by guys trying to sell you things. You can read it here - http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/epidemiol ... is1928.pdf
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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Hey Will, excellent article.

The "diet thing" is rather complex because there are many variables, it would take a book to discuss it in more details. It depends what you want to achieve, for example, a diet for a marathon runner is going to be little bit different than for a lifter who wants to lift 600 pounds...

A good way to look at it is that it is all relative. I'll try to address carbohydrates, proteins, fats, hormones (insulin, testosterone and thyroid) because all of these are quite important. It's a combination of all factors rather than just blindly choosing one factor like carbohydrates. It is more about balance, not about eliminating and vilifying one item from your diet. Being moderate in amount of calories and eating balanced diet is the key....

For example, if I lift weights while my goal is to gain muscles or strength, I would eat more carbohydrates peri-workout, say even 40% of carbos. It probably doesn't hurt if I eat some carbos within 1-2 hours after exercise as well (for total amount of 40% of peri-workout, and no other carbos for the rest of the day. Eating carbos after exercise decreases cortisol levels. High cortisol is responsible for fat gain. Eating carbos other times of the day increases likelihood that they will be stored as fat (as they rise insulin to high levels).

Carbos are very good fuel for getting fast energy. If my carbos are low, say 20% of daily calories, my energy during fitness is also low. If carbos are say 40% or more, I can lift much more.

When I am not trying to gain weight or muscles, but just keep current strength WHILE shedding off some fat, some 20% of carbos is ideal. I'm still hungry, I feel weaker, I'm just doing basic lifts without adding weight to it. Say I lift 220 5x, so I keep lifting 220 5x, I'm not increasing weight nor repetitions. My goal is to lose some fat and keep as much as muscles + strength. Note: it is not a good ideal trying to gain muscles + strength while losing fat.

In reality, I go by how I feel. Say on Monday I do 20% of carbos with no problem. Tuesday I am already tired, and Wednesday I feel weakness, tiredness. So Wednesday I eat more carbos, say 40% to re-fuel myself. Thursday and Friday I try to go less than 30... My current goal is to shed off some fat.

In simple words, if you want to add muscles and strength, you need more carbos. If you don't have carbos you will get exhausted, tired, and your overall performance is low. If you want to shed off some fat, while at least keeping the same performance, you do as low as carbos as possible, but keep minimum at 20%.

You can become fat from any food if you keep overeating. Calories are different, we burn different amount of calories during different activities,our metabolism can be faster or slower depending on activity, amount of food and hormonal level, but at the end of the day it just comes to numbers. If your body burns 2200 calories per day total, and you eat 2500 calories, the 300 will be stored. But if you eat 2000 calories, you will lose 200. Math doesn't lie.

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Carbohydrates, sugar, fruits: Very fast energy. Your body doesn't really have to work hard to process sugar, it melts on your tongue, it goes to your blood fast and replenishes energy fast. After eating sugar we feel high because sugar releases energy fast. For example, when you drink a sweet soda, the sugar goes to your blood fast, it raises your energy levels, you feel great because your brain has lots of fuel - but then the sugar is used as fuel, it's level in the blood drops, your brain doesn't have enough energy, you starts feeling tired, and he start having cravings for more sugar... It is an addiction, they actually compare sugar to cocaine.

Because carbos are so easily used by the body they are also easily stored as fat. Our bodies prefer sugar to other type of fuel eg proteins).

The mechanism is like this: you eat sugar > it gets to your blood > insulin level rises > your body uses sugar that it needs > and the excess is stored as fat.

Is low carb diet efficient? No, only in short term. After a while it slows down metabolism by decreasing thyroid hormone (T3). Metabolism is how fast is the body burning calories. If you eat lots of sugar and exercise, your metabolism works fast, it burns calories and builds muscles, so to speak. If you eat low sugar (starving) and have minimal movement, your metabolism slows down. You are tired, weak, crabby, and you have cravings for food. No good. But if you eat too much it is easily converted to fat... So you want to eat it and burn it right away (during peri-workout)...

Example 1: you eat a lot, 3500 calories, and you lift heavy weight. Your body burns 3400 calories per day, you have access of 100 calories, but you are not hungry. You are gaining and gaining weight...

Example 2: you are starving, you don't lift weights. Your body consumes 2000 calories per day, you intake say 1700. So you are losing 300 calories per day, right? True, but for couple of days only. Then your metabolism slows down (your thyroid hormone level drops because of insufficient calories intake), and now your body burns only 1750 calories, so you are basically losing nothing. The amount you lose doesn't worth the hunger, foggy mind, tiredness and weakness....

Example 3: Ideally you want to lose some calories per day while not starving and not being tired. Say you want to eat 2500 calories so you are not hungry, but burn 2600-2700 total. So you have to exercise (burn calories) and you have to keep your metabolism running (keep your testosterone and thyroid higher)... .

Another point: You also want to eat lots of fiber, your body has to work hard on digestion and it is healthy for your colon.

I believe that any amount of veggies is good, get a mixture of as many colors as possible. You can't go wrong with broccoli, cauliflower, spinach, .... I'm trying to avoid too much fruit as fruit is basically a sugar. Fruit is of course 10x better than refined sugar.

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Proteins: contain the same amount of calories as sugar, but proteins (meat) are difficult to digest. Your body has to work hard to chew and digest the meat, to break it down to amino acids, and then to rebuild muscles (if you are lifting weights). In this process the body uses extra energy (burning some calories) and it also releases lots of heat. You may find that you feel very hot after heavy weight lifting and eating lots of proteins. You obviously need lots of proteins to build muscles. The problem is that your brain doesn't like to use protein as fuel, it prefers carbos. So proteins are good for building and keeping muscles, but your brain prefers sugar.

High protein diets also result in low testosterone (low libido as you are asking); so the key - again - is in balance...

As far as protein powders: first it is a chemical, meaning it wasn't make naturally. I know that lots of people would disagree with me, but I believe that natural protein (beef) is much better than any protein powder. I am avoiding as many chemicals as I can (which is unfortunately almost impossible in USA) for one big reason: they cause cancer. Maybe not immediately, but after 20-30-40 years yes. Secondly, protein powders are already broken down, you don't have to chew it, your body doesn't have to digest it - so it is ready for fast uptake by muscles, but on the other hand your body is not using additional calories to digest the protein. Thirdly, we need cholesterol to build hormones like testosterone. Cholesterol is already included in meats in sufficient levels.

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Fats: in simple words, fats have double amount of calories per gram. Sugars and proteins have 4 calories per gram while fats 8 calories, double. Your body needs fat in order to burn stored fat. So when people go on low fat diet they gain lots of fat, because they product they buy contains low fat - but large amount of sugar. The sugar is easily stored in body, and because of high indulging levels no fat is released... The person is then getting fatter and fatter while on "low fat" diet. Does the expression 'epidemic of obesity' ring a bell? Only idiots would replace fat with sugar (FDA approved, LOL).

In order to release stored fat (excess weight) your insulin levels have to be low.

Nuts, avocado and so on is most likely healthier than animal fat but I wouldn't go nuts as animal fat also contains cholesterol - which is important for synthesis of hormones such as testosterone.. ..

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Hormones: you want to keep your testosterone, thyroid and growth hormones high as they build and keep muscles. So you have to eat meat, cholesterol, lift heavier weights,...

At the same time you want to keep insulin spikes at minimum (eat slowly, less carbos), cortisol at minimum because it breaks down muscles and stores fat, and estrogen (female hormone) low. So if a guy is already fat, his fat converts lots of testosterone to estrogen, estrogen then stores more fat.... It is a vicious cycle. So this guy should also eat some 'extra' foods that block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, such as broccoli, cauliflower, garlic,...

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I'll also try to address the following:

* Higher Testosterone for which body needs cholesterol >> Increased growth hormone >> Increased muscle gain

* Higher levels of Insulin, Cortisol and Estrogen are hormones that will make you gain fat gain. So you don't want too much sugar, too much stress, nor too long exercising. For example, too much exercise (say more than one hour) > leads to too much stress > leads to elevation of stress hormone cortisol > which break gown of muscles > and results in fat gain

* Starving: Results in lover levels of Growth Hormone, lower Testosterone > amino acid are break down for fuel > person is losing weight but mainly muscles. Thus you want to keep lifting weights while losing fat, unless you want to be skinny like long distance runners

* Fasted cardio: eats away muscles as it needs fuel for energy, and if no sugar is available proteins are next.


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The following are simple scenarios:

Guy A is fat and he wants to be very skinny, he doesn't care about muscles.
>>>> well, start running/biking/swimming long distances. Any cardio will burn lots of excess fat. Run 8-10 miles per day if you can, eat moderately balanced diet so you don't starve much. You probably want to do lots of cardio for many hours.

Guy B is fat but he wants to get rid of fat while gain some muscles
>>>> First, I would build muscles using system like 5x5. He is already fat yet he may add some weight - but this is muscles. Do it say for 4 months to build some muscle mass

Then change the style: Lift heavy weight for the first 15-20 minutes but only maintenance weight, don't increase reps or weights. This burns glucose storage fast and releases fat into a blood stream. Do HIIT, sprints, say for the next 20 minutes - this stimulates release of anabolic hormones, also burns fat while stimulating muscles. You should be exhausted by now. Finish with some moderate cardio (another 20-30 mins) to burn the released fat. Faster walking will do it, keep your heart rate 120-150 (to burn fat). You probably need more carbohydrates periworkout so you have lots of power to lift weights at the beginning. Don't eat carbos in any other time of the day so they don't turn infat again...

Guy C is average but wants to gain lots of muscles and strength:
>>>> do 5x5, don't exercise more than 45 mins to keep testosterone and growth hormone high, and cortisol low. Rest well. Eat well. Lift heavy. If you want to be shredded, watch your carbos intake, watch your overall caloric intake. If you don't care, well, eat as you wish, you will gain lots of volume in no time.

Those are of course just general examples, it doesn't mean that this is the only way to do things... For example, you can also lose lots of fat by adding extra series of lifting with lighter weights after the main lift is done....

So carbos are not the villain, it is rather one of the variables that should be adjusted first for the best results...
 

Will KZ

Space Monkey
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Jun 24, 2015
Messages
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You're right, it would take a book to cover it all. Many book in facts if you see all the ones on nutrition available. And it's complex and there is no consensus, which is why there are such a wide variety of diets that are supposedly healthy in the world. One thing they tend to ignore is that it's all partly psychosomatic, if you believe you are eating healthy your body will feel better partly as a result of that belief.

We're not too different in our thinking, though I can see you are closer to a paleo mindset. I'm with you on protein powders being unhealthy and unnecessary, and protein being tougher to digest. Even though red meat is supposedly the healthiest, I find I digest protein from fish, eggs and dairy a lot easier than meat.

I don't think you have to lower carbs to lose weight. How often do you see a fat vegan? They always seem to lack muscle and be way too skinny instead, but a vegan diet pretty much has to be high carb.

I think I was too harsh on vegetables in my previous post. I don't mind some broccoli or spinach (provided they're well cooked and covered in butter or olive oil), on the side of a nice steak. Or some carrots now and then, or a refreshing cucumber. And they are filled with important vitamins and minerals, I won't deny that. But for me most vegetables are quite off-putting. And I believe eating should be enjoyed, so if I don't want vegetables I'm not going force them down. Jack Lalanne has lasted pretty long with them, and fruits, and meats. Basically the man won't eat anything man-made, pretty paleo, but he isn't afraid of fruit.

Which brings me to our main disagreement. Too much fruit? I'm sure there's a threshold of too much fruit we can cross, but I'd be happy to bet we'd probably be sick of the fruit before we got near crossing that threshold. You think you would be gaining weight if you ate a bunch of fruit for dinner instead of a normal meal? I've done it before, and I can tell you that if you eat enough fruit it will feel you up, and still not come close to your calorie requirement for the day. And the weight will start to drop. You know sugar is good for your thyroid and metabolism, you know that carbs are protein sparing and therefore good for your muscles, so why avoid fruit? If you don't want fruit don't eat it, but if you're craving it I wouldn't restrain yourself too much.

Also I don't understand the modern obsession with fiber. Babies can go years with just breast milk, which I'm sure has very little fiber in it. People can survive on carnivorous diets, which also have little fiber. A paleo diet doesn't seem to me to have much fiber, unless you wolf down loads of vegetables and potatoes I guess, but how many of those can you realistically eat?

Currently I'm travelling, my travelling diet is horrific. And I still feel better than I did on paleo because I'm not restricting myself for anything. When I'm at home my diet is one I consider healthy, but still contains a fair amount of things others wouldn't find healthy. And I am pretty slim, athletically built, and I stay that way with 2 pizzas a week, a lot of ice cream and treats, lots of fruit and dairy, a bit too much meat, and then the other starches like bread etc. And a moderate amount of exercise.
 

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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Good arguments, and I'm not really disagreeing. If we go back to moderate/relative approach, excess of any food including fruits will cause weight gain. If my body uses 2000 calories per day and I consume 2200 calories in fruits, the 200 extra will be stored as fat.

At the same time we have to consider other factors. For example, metabolism of a 20 year old young guy who is exercising is much faster than a guy who is 50 years old and already obese and doesn't really move around. So if the young guy consumes 500 calories of fruits he may not feel any difference, he may not gain any weight - but the older guy consumes the same fruit, he could easily gain extra weight...

There is also a difference in amount or rather volume of foods we eat, some will simply fill you more (meaning occupy your stomach space). Say average apple has 100 calories, but if you take the same volume of rasins, you'll probably consume much more calories; you'll be better of with the apple. On the other hand, if you consume veggies they will have half the calories in the same volume as apple.

As an example, eat a full plate of salad (with some chicken), you will be 'filled' more. Compare to full plate of potatoes or rice - you will also be filled but you'll consume many more calories.

As far as carbohydrates, there are also different 'kinds', as you already know. Simple carbos are easily digested and go easily to blood, and complex carbos take much longer time as your body has to work harder to break down the complex molecules.

You cannot really compare babies to adults. Babies grow, they need lots of calories, they have different levels of hormones and different rate of metabolism.

Fiber is important, mainly for intestines; it sort of keeps the digested food bulky, it makes us less hungry and more full, it prevents constipation, it lowers risks of diseases such as diverticulitis, it controls blood sugar level, and it decreases risk for colorectal cancer. Again, if you are a young guy say 20 years old, you don't really care much because you are full of energy and healthy - but once you hit age 50 or more, fiber may have significant impact on your overall health.

As far as pizza and ice cream, bread and so on - it is the same issue, it's all relative. A young guy's metabolism easily absorbs it because it is fast. As we get older we get used to this diet - but then our metabolism slows down, our activity goes down, level of testosterone goes down, possibly we start stressing out more and more (more cortisol)... And we'll start slowly accumulate extra pounds, year after year... Will you have problem with this diet 5-10 years from now? Probably not. But 20 years, 30 years, well, you'll see yourself...
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

Will KZ

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Jun 24, 2015
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I will see 20-30 years from now, I imagine I will be fine if I keep up a similar activity level, although I've heard parenthood can add some weight. Babies do have different metabolisms and needs and levels of brown fat, but that's not really related to fiber. Their intestinal tract may be less developed, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't grow from something needing no fiber into something needing a lot, I'd have to ask a biologist though.

All I know is, a meal of plain chicken with vegetables will make me want to shoot myself if that's how I'm supposed to eat regularly, and my style of eating on a Tuesday doesn't leave me feeling like crap on a Wednesday. Vegetables are a low calorie food but highly filling, it doesn't make sense to me that we're meant to eat a lot of them. Historically just the energy used to harvest vegetables are not replenished by the food themselves, sure they have plenty of nutrition if cooked properly, but I think filling up on them is a waste of time
 

Lotus

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Very succinct yet comprehensive discussion. Learned a lot.

Thank you
 

Will KZ

Space Monkey
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You're welcome. I think part of the issue is that I'm a skinny /guy, and so much of the nutrition world focuses on losing weight thanks to US obesity rates and the several countries following in their wake, but losing a lot would be very unhealthy for me. Having said that, I'm sure you could lose weight with my style of eating - without going low carb, low fat or low protein.
 

Ruthie

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I recently had diverticulitis for the first time and am trying to get as much practical information as possible about diet. The puzzled professionals I met told me that diverticulitis is usually a genetic disorder rarely seen in patients under 40 years of age. Moreover, when it worries younger patients, the latter are prone to obesity. However, I have always maintained a healthy weight and eaten high fiber foods: whole grain breakfast cereal, whole grain pasta, whole grain bread and oats, barley and rye, berries, pears, melons and oranges. . broccoli, carrots and sweet corn, peas, beans and legumes, nuts and seeds, jacket potatoes. I drink a lot of (filtered) water. I do daily exercises. On the advice of one of our forum colleagues, I returned to cereals and added almonds and walnuts to my daily diet. Whether this is a placebo effect, I don't know, but I certainly don't suffer from it as much as I used to.
 
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