Initial Compliments Canʼt be Genuine

[ThePhoenix]

Trying here to piece together some “whys.”

Iʼve long believed that the purpose of compliments in the early moments of an approach is to communicate sexual intent, which signals confidence and avoids creepiness.

For the intent to be sexual, I  would have thought compliments on genetic features would hit  the  mark better than those on clothing or adornments. After  all, a child she could give  you might inherit her eyes, hair, complexion, or facial features — but  not her shoes, blouse, handbag, or earrings. (Expensive  earrings, maybe!)

You might think, “No, no, a girl isn’t thinking about having kids with some guy she just  met,” or vice versa. But hold  on — this isnʼt conscious. A lot of our counterintuitive findings in game actually make sense when viewed through a biological lens. For example, the Sexy  Son Hypothesis in evolutionary biology powerfully explains why women are attracted to “bad  boys” more than monogamous males, and why moving  fast and preselection matter.

So I  was caught off-guard by part of an answer from @Will_V on my question about tweaking day game:

Clothing is actually very good to comment on, as girls usually spend boatloads of time preparing and adorning themselves to go out, and typically enjoy some genuine appreciation for their efforts.

On the other hand, it's very hard to compliment physical features without her getting dismissive - she didn't do anything to get them so it means nothing to her.

Interesting! Reading between the lines, it sounds like perhaps the compliment’s purpose isnʼt just to communicate sexual intent, but also to set an implied chase  frame.

The frame is, this girl had been working hard to seduce you, before you even met her.

And her efforts are paying off. Actually, it’s not her efforts at  all — it’s what she was born  with — but she doesn’t need to know that.

So, essentially, this process involves a fundamental dishonesty, of  sorts.

Because, the nature of sexual attraction has my brain wired to look  for girls with nice genes, not girls with nice jeans. I  hate to use numbers, but if a girl is a 7/10, thereʼs absolutely nothing she could do — aside  from plastic surgery, diet, or  exercise — that would change that rating in my eyes. (Cosmetics could actually lower it, since the attempt feels off‑putting.)

But, apparently, I’m supposed to come up with what has  to be a bullshit line about some piece of clothing that actually I  could care  less about, other  than wanting to remove  it.

Well, Iʼve already accepted that seduction generally entails a degree of dishonesty (e.g.,  “I  have to get  going,” when I  don’t). @Will_V did  say the compliment is an avenue rather  than an  end.

Or maybe the war paint and designer rags actually do have an appeal to most guys. Iʼve seen commentary here suggesting they do.    


Her Mating Mind?

Suspending my disbelief for a moment, and supposing human males actually are attracted to clothing, what  figures?

The best hypothesis I  can call up is The Mating Mind, which suggests human intelligence evolved far beyond survival needs and  so must have developed through runaway sexual  selection. Just  as peacocks acquired fantastic tails because  of female preference, we may  have evolved fantastic brains so  as  to impress  mates.

This isnʼt hard to believe if youʼve ever seen a woman respond to a good banter!

Now, in nature, itʼs usually males who become ornamented — sperm’s cheap, so they’ve got  to show  off. But human females also compete for mates, and given their remarkable intelligence, itʼs not unreasonable to  think they use their brains as attractants too.

Iʼm not so sure I  actually look for mate intelligence on a dick-hardening, animalistic level. On that level, physical features reign. Still, if humanity vanished and I  could only mate with some other creature, Iʼd pick a dolphin. While their streamlined, hairless bodies help, itʼs their playful, creative, and intelligent nature — arguably on  par with humans — thatʼs actually attractive.

This preference feels more intentioned than automatic; but if the brain is itself a sexual mechanism, that blurs the line between animalistic and intellectual.

Every girl I’ve ever (in past) fallen for has been physically appealing but also had some captivating personality trait, be it graciousness or cockiness. At once I  don’t want a nerdy girl — but that really meaning low social  intelligence.

Girls tend to be more passive in their search for mates. While a guy might flaunt his brain with banter, she might use something else to do  so. I’ve always viewed gussying  up as an attempt — albeit a futile  one — to trick  me into thinking she has a hotter body than she does. But maybe it’s not her body she’s trying to show  off.

“Look at how clever I  am! I  managed to assemble these trinkets.”

Iʼm not sure just how much grey matter it takes to walk into Zara and pick something that doesn’t scream “goof.” But early humans didn’t have malls, so maybe it did take some degree of brainpower.

This might explain why I  find the facial adornments of some tribal cultures more cute and less off‑putting than Western makeup. The latter’s meant to optimize natural features — which feels fraudulent. The former seems more an expression of creativity.

While this line of thinking wonʼt make Gucci apparel suddenly turn  me  on, it helps  me appreciate why I’m supposed  to notice  it.


So, What Now?

I  donʼt know if this is a problem most guys face, or if Iʼm just some genetic anomaly that is somehow immune to acrylic nails and handbags.

Well, on the rare occasion Iʼm actually impressed by some trinket, I  now know what  to  do!

If that fails, which it usually will, I  might be able to somewhat assuage my inclination towards authenticity by finding a trinket thatʼs on  something I  actually like, and weaving  it into an implicit suggestion — like  telling a girl with a nice  ass, “Those  jeans are a nice  fit on  you!”

Thatʼs all fine and dandy, but even that is only going  to work in a smattering of cases.

And in the rest? Cue the bullshit! But just how smelly is it going to have  to get?

While on the whole Iʼm not subjectively attracted to womenʼs fashion, I  can at least try to offer detached observations about its quality or coordination. I  suppose this could work when there actually is some noteworthy quality or coordination, but even  that is unreliable.

In a brief experiment with clothing compliments, one issue I  found was that in day  game, genetically beautiful women often don’t dress  up much. Sometimes Iʼd want to approach a girl, but her outfit would be so plain that a compliment about  it would  be completely feigned and awkward. Sometimes, thereʼs just a small detail — like  a nose  stud — but finding nothing to compliment isn’t uncommon.

Maybe you luck out and she has a killer walk or some other standout behavior, but that’s 1  in  1000. What do you do with the other 999? Revert to a very genuine compliment on her physical features? I  do most  love those, but Iʼm  told thatʼs not seductive.

 

[Will_V]

Trying here to piece together some “whys.”

Iʼve long believed that the purpose of compliments in the early moments of an approach is to communicate sexual intent, which signals confidence and avoids creepiness.

For the intent to be sexual, I  would have thought compliments on genetic features would hit  the  mark better than those on clothing or adornments. After  all, a child she could give  you might inherit her eyes, hair, complexion, or facial features — but  not her shoes, blouse, handbag, or earrings. (Expensive  earrings, maybe!)

You might think, “No, no, a girl isn’t thinking about having kids with some guy she just  met,” or vice versa. But hold  on — this isnʼt conscious. A lot of our counterintuitive findings in game actually make sense when viewed through a biological lens. For example, the Sexy  Son Hypothesis in evolutionary biology powerfully explains why women are attracted to “bad  boys” more than monogamous males, and why moving  fast and preselection matter.

So I  was caught off-guard by part of an answer from @Will_V on my question about tweaking day game:



Interesting! Reading between the lines, it sounds like perhaps the compliment’s purpose isnʼt just to communicate sexual intent, but also to set an implied chase  frame.

The frame is, this girl had been working hard to seduce you, before you even met her.

And her efforts are paying off. Actually, it’s not her efforts at  all — it’s what she was born  with — but she doesn’t need to know that.

So, essentially, this process involves a fundamental dishonesty, of  sorts.

Because, the nature of sexual attraction has my brain wired to look  for girls with nice genes, not girls with nice jeans. I  hate to use numbers, but if a girl is a 7/10, thereʼs absolutely nothing she could do — aside  from plastic surgery, diet, or  exercise — that would change that rating in my eyes. (Cosmetics could actually lower it, since the attempt feels off‑putting.)

But, apparently, I’m supposed to come up with what has  to be a bullshit line about some piece of clothing that actually I  could care  less about, other  than wanting to remove  it.

Well, Iʼve already accepted that seduction generally entails a degree of dishonesty (e.g.,  “I  have to get  going,” when I  don’t). @Will_V did  say the compliment is an avenue rather  than an  end.

Or maybe the war paint and designer rags actually do have an appeal to most guys. Iʼve seen commentary here suggesting they do.    


Her Mating Mind?

Suspending my disbelief for a moment, and supposing human males actually are attracted to clothing, what  figures?

The best hypothesis I  can call up is The Mating Mind, which suggests human intelligence evolved far beyond survival needs and  so must have developed through runaway sexual  selection. Just  as peacocks acquired fantastic tails because  of female preference, we may  have evolved fantastic brains so  as  to impress  mates.

This isnʼt hard to believe if youʼve ever seen a woman respond to a good banter!

Now, in nature, itʼs usually males who become ornamented — sperm’s cheap, so they’ve got  to show  off. But human females also compete for mates, and given their remarkable intelligence, itʼs not unreasonable to  think they use their brains as attractants too.

Iʼm not so sure I  actually look for mate intelligence on a dick-hardening, animalistic level. On that level, physical features reign. Still, if humanity vanished and I  could only mate with some other creature, Iʼd pick a dolphin. While their streamlined, hairless bodies help, itʼs their playful, creative, and intelligent nature — arguably on  par with humans — thatʼs actually attractive.

This preference feels more intentioned than automatic; but if the brain is itself a sexual mechanism, that blurs the line between animalistic and intellectual.

Every girl I’ve ever (in past) fallen for has been physically appealing but also had some captivating personality trait, be it graciousness or cockiness. At once I  don’t want a nerdy girl — but that really meaning low social  intelligence.

Girls tend to be more passive in their search for mates. While a guy might flaunt his brain with banter, she might use something else to do  so. I’ve always viewed gussying  up as an attempt — albeit a futile  one — to trick  me into thinking she has a hotter body than she does. But maybe it’s not her body she’s trying to show  off.

“Look at how clever I  am! I  managed to assemble these trinkets.”

Iʼm not sure just how much grey matter it takes to walk into Zara and pick something that doesn’t scream “goof.” But early humans didn’t have malls, so maybe it did take some degree of brainpower.

This might explain why I  find the facial adornments of some tribal cultures more cute and less off‑putting than Western makeup. The latter’s meant to optimize natural features — which feels fraudulent. The former seems more an expression of creativity.

While this line of thinking wonʼt make Gucci apparel suddenly turn  me  on, it helps  me appreciate why I’m supposed  to notice  it.


So, What Now?

I  donʼt know if this is a problem most guys face, or if Iʼm just some genetic anomaly that is somehow immune to acrylic nails and handbags.

Well, on the rare occasion Iʼm actually impressed by some trinket, I  now know what  to  do!

If that fails, which it usually will, I  might be able to somewhat assuage my inclination towards authenticity by finding a trinket thatʼs on  something I  actually like, and weaving  it into an implicit suggestion — like  telling a girl with a nice  ass, “Those  jeans are a nice  fit on  you!”

Thatʼs all fine and dandy, but even that is only going  to work in a smattering of cases.

And in the rest? Cue the bullshit! But just how smelly is it going to have  to get?

While on the whole Iʼm not subjectively attracted to womenʼs fashion, I  can at least try to offer detached observations about its quality or coordination. I  suppose this could work when there actually is some noteworthy quality or coordination, but even  that is unreliable.

In a brief experiment with clothing compliments, one issue I  found was that in day  game, genetically beautiful women often don’t dress  up much. Sometimes Iʼd want to approach a girl, but her outfit would be so plain that a compliment about  it would  be completely feigned and awkward. Sometimes, thereʼs just a small detail — like  a nose  stud — but finding nothing to compliment isn’t uncommon.

Maybe you luck out and she has a killer walk or some other standout behavior, but that’s 1  in  1000. What do you do with the other 999? Revert to a very genuine compliment on her physical features? I  do most  love those, but Iʼm  told thatʼs not seductive.

You're reading pretty far into it, but I believe it's much simpler than that.

People simply like to receive compliments on things they've worked for. The same way a girl values you more when she has to work for you. Whatever requires investment from her is meaningful to her.

You might look at her and think "she has some really special genetics" and cool, that's what us dudes notice! But she isn't aware of it, she isn't studying hot female genetics, all she knows is that she farts and burps and doesn't always get what she wants, and when she works for something and gets it, she is really satisfied about it.

Think of female hotness like male fame. If you're famous, do you care about someone who expresses admiration for that? No. You probably instantly go 'oh another fan, whatever' and feel irritated. You'd rather not meet them, they don't have anything to give you that you want.

But let's say you meet someone you admire, whose attention and time you have to work hard to get, that's someone whose compliments and investment you will value a lot.

It is just the nature of the human mind that whatever is free and easy is worthless, regardless of whether to someone else it means a lot.

So when you compliment her on her fashion and style, you're showing that you value what she's worked for, which is also what she values, and this not only lands well but sets the right frame for the continuation of the seduction and relationship.

 

[Chase]

@ThePhoenix,

Lots to unpack here. I think I need to write an article on this subject, because it’s important.

But just real quick, the summary points:

• Physical compliments work if she’s DTF. They also work if she is SUPER attracted to your look as well, even if not DTF.
  
  
• There’s an advanced game way to do push-pull physical compliment openers where you open this way then immediately go into testing her and sending mixed signals. This is how you make this work if she isn’t DTF or otherwise highly initially attracted. Can be very powerful, but you’ve really got to be on-point and SMOOTH.
  
  
• Otherwise, physical compliments communicate her rarity to you (i.e., her scarcity / your lack of abundance with girls of her type). That is anti-seductive because girls want guys that other girls want, not ones for whom they are rare.
  
  
• Physical compliments also generally do away with any game on your part whatsoever: she knows you want her (you won’t say no to banging a girl whose look you like), but you don’t know if she wants you, and in fact she probably doesn’t yet, since she needs to be seduced. She is the prize, you are the one attempting to win it; it is her game now — and now you must CHASE. Let the pursuit begin!
  
  
• Compliments on fashion, walk, energy, etc. compliment her inner aspects: creativity, ingenuity, personality, etc. By complimenting these, you say, “I like what I can see of your inner self.” You imply by extension that you’d be intrigued to explore more of her and find out if you like her. She has no idea if you like her look and does NOT feel like she “has” you; the power balance of the game remains in place.
  
  
• Additionally non-physical compliments, since they compliment her on her mind, establish attitude-similarity, which if you own One Date is one of our three core attractive elements we need to build with girls to get together with them. Physical compliments do not do this. If a woman compliments you on your sexy nose, you do not think to yourself, “Wow, we must have a lot in common!” You just think she likes your nose.

Anyway, a “fake genuine” compliment is not what you want to be going for here.

If there is absolutely nothing you like about women at all aside from their face shapes, body shapes, etc., and they’re basically all interchangeable to you at the personality level, I would probably suggest it’s better if you’re not even using compliment openers; it’s just not an opener all that suited to you.

There are lots of ways you can start a conversation with women; you don’t need to be complimenting on fake stuff.

(the other thing I will say here is: you may not be able to appreciate fashion on a woman now, but after a few months of paying careful attention to it I GUARANTEE you are going to discover you have more and more appreciation for a girl with a good fashion sense. You will realize this is as genetic a component of her as her looks — her creativity, her self-presentation, what aspects of her personality she puts on display, etc.)

Chase

 

[AspiringStoic]

Trying here to piece together some “whys.”

Iʼve long believed that the purpose of compliments in the early moments of an approach is to communicate sexual intent, which signals confidence and avoids creepiness.

For the intent to be sexual, I  would have thought compliments on genetic features would hit  the  mark better than those on clothing or adornments. After  all, a child she could give  you might inherit her eyes, hair, complexion, or facial features — but  not her shoes, blouse, handbag, or earrings. (Expensive  earrings, maybe!)

You might think, “No, no, a girl isn’t thinking about having kids with some guy she just  met,” or vice versa. But hold  on — this isnʼt conscious. A lot of our counterintuitive findings in game actually make sense when viewed through a biological lens. For example, the Sexy  Son Hypothesis in evolutionary biology powerfully explains why women are attracted to “bad  boys” more than monogamous males, and why moving  fast and preselection matter.

So I  was caught off-guard by part of an answer from @Will_V on my question about tweaking day game:



Interesting! Reading between the lines, it sounds like perhaps the compliment’s purpose isnʼt just to communicate sexual intent, but also to set an implied chase  frame.

The frame is, this girl had been working hard to seduce you, before you even met her.

And her efforts are paying off. Actually, it’s not her efforts at  all — it’s what she was born  with — but she doesn’t need to know that.

So, essentially, this process involves a fundamental dishonesty, of  sorts.

Because, the nature of sexual attraction has my brain wired to look  for girls with nice genes, not girls with nice jeans. I  hate to use numbers, but if a girl is a 7/10, thereʼs absolutely nothing she could do — aside  from plastic surgery, diet, or  exercise — that would change that rating in my eyes. (Cosmetics could actually lower it, since the attempt feels off‑putting.)

But, apparently, I’m supposed to come up with what has  to be a bullshit line about some piece of clothing that actually I  could care  less about, other  than wanting to remove  it.

Well, Iʼve already accepted that seduction generally entails a degree of dishonesty (e.g.,  “I  have to get  going,” when I  don’t). @Will_V did  say the compliment is an avenue rather  than an  end.

Or maybe the war paint and designer rags actually do have an appeal to most guys. Iʼve seen commentary here suggesting they do.    


Her Mating Mind?

Suspending my disbelief for a moment, and supposing human males actually are attracted to clothing, what  figures?

The best hypothesis I  can call up is The Mating Mind, which suggests human intelligence evolved far beyond survival needs and  so must have developed through runaway sexual  selection. Just  as peacocks acquired fantastic tails because  of female preference, we may  have evolved fantastic brains so  as  to impress  mates.

This isnʼt hard to believe if youʼve ever seen a woman respond to a good banter!

Now, in nature, itʼs usually males who become ornamented — sperm’s cheap, so they’ve got  to show  off. But human females also compete for mates, and given their remarkable intelligence, itʼs not unreasonable to  think they use their brains as attractants too.

Iʼm not so sure I  actually look for mate intelligence on a dick-hardening, animalistic level. On that level, physical features reign. Still, if humanity vanished and I  could only mate with some other creature, Iʼd pick a dolphin. While their streamlined, hairless bodies help, itʼs their playful, creative, and intelligent nature — arguably on  par with humans — thatʼs actually attractive.

This preference feels more intentioned than automatic; but if the brain is itself a sexual mechanism, that blurs the line between animalistic and intellectual.

Every girl I’ve ever (in past) fallen for has been physically appealing but also had some captivating personality trait, be it graciousness or cockiness. At once I  don’t want a nerdy girl — but that really meaning low social  intelligence.

Girls tend to be more passive in their search for mates. While a guy might flaunt his brain with banter, she might use something else to do  so. I’ve always viewed gussying  up as an attempt — albeit a futile  one — to trick  me into thinking she has a hotter body than she does. But maybe it’s not her body she’s trying to show  off.

“Look at how clever I  am! I  managed to assemble these trinkets.”

Iʼm not sure just how much grey matter it takes to walk into Zara and pick something that doesn’t scream “goof.” But early humans didn’t have malls, so maybe it did take some degree of brainpower.

This might explain why I  find the facial adornments of some tribal cultures more cute and less off‑putting than Western makeup. The latter’s meant to optimize natural features — which feels fraudulent. The former seems more an expression of creativity.

While this line of thinking wonʼt make Gucci apparel suddenly turn  me  on, it helps  me appreciate why I’m supposed  to notice  it.


So, What Now?

I  donʼt know if this is a problem most guys face, or if Iʼm just some genetic anomaly that is somehow immune to acrylic nails and handbags.

Well, on the rare occasion Iʼm actually impressed by some trinket, I  now know what  to  do!

If that fails, which it usually will, I  might be able to somewhat assuage my inclination towards authenticity by finding a trinket thatʼs on  something I  actually like, and weaving  it into an implicit suggestion — like  telling a girl with a nice  ass, “Those  jeans are a nice  fit on  you!”

Thatʼs all fine and dandy, but even that is only going  to work in a smattering of cases.

And in the rest? Cue the bullshit! But just how smelly is it going to have  to get?

While on the whole Iʼm not subjectively attracted to womenʼs fashion, I  can at least try to offer detached observations about its quality or coordination. I  suppose this could work when there actually is some noteworthy quality or coordination, but even  that is unreliable.

In a brief experiment with clothing compliments, one issue I  found was that in day  game, genetically beautiful women often don’t dress  up much. Sometimes Iʼd want to approach a girl, but her outfit would be so plain that a compliment about  it would  be completely feigned and awkward. Sometimes, thereʼs just a small detail — like  a nose  stud — but finding nothing to compliment isn’t uncommon.

Maybe you luck out and she has a killer walk or some other standout behavior, but that’s 1  in  1000. What do you do with the other 999? Revert to a very genuine compliment on her physical features? I  do most  love those, but Iʼm  told thatʼs not seductive.

You are unnecessarily intellectualizing things. If you have a problem expressing "sexual intent" going up and being more bold and saying she looks stunning, gorgeous, sexy, pretty etc is good. Not because it helps the seduction but because it changes you and makes you more comfortable overtly and clearly showing intent.

Once that is no longer an issue, you can tone it down and express it in a more measured way.

I have been going out and approaching consistently. I always start with a compliment. Sometimes I tell her she looks pretty, nice, stylish etc. Sometimes I say I really like your style, your coat, your shoes, your ear rings etc. And sometimes I mix both of them and say

" You look cute with your nose ring/ You look very pretty with your pink attire."

I have not noticed any differences in how the interactions go based on these minute variations. There are larger things that matter more like your vibe, non-neediness, tonality, how comfortable you are saying what you are saying, calmness in conversation etc.

 

[Will_V]

• Physical compliments work if she’s DTF. They also work if she is SUPER attracted to your look as well, even if not DTF.

I would say that when she's dtf what works is showing a lot of intent, which can be done with a compliment, but not all compliments come with intent. So it's not really the compliment per se that does the job.

Then again I daygame and I'm not usually meeting girls who are clearly dtf so I don't usually go super direct. The most I'll do is compliment her hair (which she probably put hours of effort into lol) and even then it's not something I'll make a big deal about.

IMO physical attraction is best expressed with nonverbals.

 

[TwoNameGame]

Or maybe the war paint and designer rags actually do have an appeal to most guys. Iʼve seen commentary here suggesting they do.    

The determinant seems to be whether you want lays or a relationship. Here is my take as someone who determines who to approach based almost solely on clothing.

Clothing communicates 3 valuable personal traits to me:

1. Tenacity
2. Passion
3. Self-image

To me, high heels and a dress on a regular rainy day conveys a sense of determination that gets me interested in finding out what she is working towards. A girly, yet edgy aesthetic tells me she is passionate about music, goals, and individualism. Style tells me she values investing in herself and doing worthwhile things for intrinsic value, not just extrinsic. "I don't care" is a turn off for me.

People tell me Gen Z girls are self-absorbed and addicted to phones, but no girly girl I met comes close to that description. That seems limited to the kinds of girls who need to wear socks and sandals on a warm day to be comfy 'cuz they DGAF. At this point, I filter them out if my sight because of sheer disinterest, and struggle to find motivation to talk to them (because why when they higher oppurtunity cost?). The only reason I'd converse with one is for lays - the one thing almost every woman can provide.

Every girl I’ve ever (in past) fallen for has been physically appealing but also had some captivating personality trait, be it graciousness or cockiness. 

And how will you know if not for clothes? Women who walk sexy in heels have grace. Women who have no grace rely on crocs. Women who dress like rockers, or artists, or prim ladies are rockers, artists, or prim ladies.

I  donʼt know if this is a problem most guys face, or if Iʼm just some genetic anomaly that is somehow immune to acrylic nails and handbags.

I am the same. When a girl wears sweatpants and drags her feet but brags about her nails, I begin to fear her priorities.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

I can surely say that I am a person that finds beauty in fashion and presentation. It’s way easier for me to naturally compliment a girl with great fashion and image, I somehow feel like she is my type of girl right away.

On the other hand, if a girl is just pretty, even if she is stunningly beautiful in fact, but is just dressed casually, I have trouble starting a conversation. I feel she is just a beautiful face and body and I struggle to find an authentic interest in her personality.

While my compliments are almost always appreciated with the first type, with the second they almost always feel forced and fake because they just are.

So I do agree in the end that some more indirect form of game would be better for the open, when the girl is mostly just pretty. I have to practice that more myself for sure as I love being direct, and sometimes I am just left there thinking how do I open this girl without looking like I am just amazed by her pretty face, while still not hiding the banana.

 

[James D]

@ThePhoenix,

Lots to unpack here. I think I need to write an article on this subject, because it’s important.

But just real quick, the summary points:

• Physical compliments work if she’s DTF. They also work if she is SUPER attracted to your look as well, even if not DTF.
  
  
• There’s an advanced game way to do push-pull physical compliment openers where you open this way then immediately go into testing her and sending mixed signals. This is how you make this work if she isn’t DTF or otherwise highly initially attracted. Can be very powerful, but you’ve really got to be on-point and SMOOTH.
  
  
• Otherwise, physical compliments communicate her rarity to you (i.e., her scarcity / your lack of abundance with girls of her type). That is anti-seductive because girls want guys that other girls want, not ones for whom they are rare.
  
  
• Physical compliments also generally do away with any game on your part whatsoever: she knows you want her (you won’t say no to banging a girl whose look you like), but you don’t know if she wants you, and in fact she probably doesn’t yet, since she needs to be seduced. She is the prize, you are the one attempting to win it; it is her game now — and now you must CHASE. Let the pursuit begin!
  
  
• Compliments on fashion, walk, energy, etc. compliment her inner aspects: creativity, ingenuity, personality, etc. By complimenting these, you say, “I like what I can see of your inner self.” You imply by extension that you’d be intrigued to explore more of her and find out if you like her. She has no idea if you like her look and does NOT feel like she “has” you; the power balance of the game remains in place.
  
  
• Additionally non-physical compliments, since they compliment her on her mind, establish attitude-similarity, which if you own One Date is one of our three core attractive elements we need to build with girls to get together with them. Physical compliments do not do this. If a woman compliments you on your sexy nose, you do not think to yourself, “Wow, we must have a lot in common!” You just think she likes your nose.

Anyway, a “fake genuine” compliment is not what you want to be going for here.

If there is absolutely nothing you like about women at all aside from their face shapes, body shapes, etc., and they’re basically all interchangeable to you at the personality level, I would probably suggest it’s better if you’re not even using compliment openers; it’s just not an opener all that suited to you.

There are lots of ways you can start a conversation with women; you don’t need to be complimenting on fake stuff.

(the other thing I will say here is: you may not be able to appreciate fashion on a woman now, but after a few months of paying careful attention to it I GUARANTEE you are going to discover you have more and more appreciation for a girl with a good fashion sense. You will realize this is as genetic a component of her as her looks — her creativity, her self-presentation, what aspects of her personality she puts on display, etc.)

Chase

@Chase

Curious to hear your take on Hector's "raw open".

He mentioned it in a YouTube live stream and did a demo, which essentially consisted of "you're really beautiful"

 

[gameboy]

I  donʼt know if this is a problem most guys face, or if Iʼm just some genetic anomaly that is somehow immune to acrylic nails and handbags.

+1

Nice to read that I'm not alone with this.

I'm borderline allergic to acrylic nails, and especially to over-the-top makeup (a little is ok though). Some guys seem to love it. To me, it is off putting, and tells me a girl feels the need to hide behind a layer of paint.

Unless she does it in a very minimalist and stylish way, in which case I may be attracted regardless.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this!

• Otherwise, physical compliments communicate her rarity to you (i.e., her scarcity / your lack of abundance with girls of her type). That is anti-seductive because girls want guys that other girls want, not ones for whom they are rare.
  
  
• Physical compliments also generally do away with any game on your part whatsoever: she knows you want her (you won’t say no to banging a girl whose look you like), but you don’t know if she wants you, and in fact she probably doesn’t yet, since she needs to be seduced. She is the prize, you are the one attempting to win it; it is her game now — and now you must CHASE. Let the pursuit begin!

There is an interesting subtlety here. On one hand this absolutely makes sense and would  have been my  thinking also. However I  seem to remember reading an article here which noted the importance of showing sexual  intent — i.e.,  not “hiding  the  banana”.

It noted that ideally you want to show intent with non-verbals (as @Will_V notes), but that if youʼre not at that level yet, compliments can substitute. But in that context, a compliment that isnʼt physical could  well  be platonic,  no?

I  guess, though, you want some ambiguity... like getting a cat to chase a feather: you have  to hold  it at the right distance.

If there is absolutely nothing you like about women at all aside from their face shapes, body shapes, etc., and they’re basically all interchangeable to you at the personality level, I would probably suggest it’s better if you’re not even using compliment openers; it’s just not an opener all that suited to you.

Donʼt get me wrong @Chase, I  do appreciate personality once getting to know the girl. Itʼs just that I  donʼt equate what theyʼre wearing with their personality — it  intuitively seems too unreliable a  metric.

The closest Iʼve come to such an equation is black girls wearing their natural hair. Theyʼre under a  lot of social pressure to wear weave or straight hair, so when they donʼt, I  take that to  mean theyʼre more confident & individual. Iʼve tended to compliment the Afro  puff and add, “itʼs  so  much nicer than all  that weave  garbage.” Maybe I  should just tweak  this a  bit to point the compliment more squarely at the personality aspect, which I  do genuinely appreciate also.

But even this is not a reliable proxy for personality. Some girls switch  it  up between weave and natural, whereas others, nobody has ever seen their real hair. These are two way different girls, but  I  canʼt  even know which  one Iʼm  looking  at! And for  as  much as I  look  at weave as demonstrating lower self-confidence, Beyoncé is presumably a counter-example and there are probably many others.

Iʼll try to pay more attention to womenʼs clothes. Maybe try a compromise. If Iʼm not even remotely impressed, or sheʼs dressed too plain, as  you  say, forego the compliment. Maybe try  it here  and  there if I  can at  least somewhat appreciate something. @Will_V did mention in  the other thread that compliments ideally have a degree of ambiguity; so maybe I  donʼt need to be that impressed, without being  fake.

I'm borderline allergic to acrylic nails, and especially to over-the-top makeup ... To me, it is off putting, and tells me a girl feels the need to hide behind a layer of paint.

Thank God Iʼm not the only one!

Iʼd just as soon none, but if itʼs near-natural, I  can tolerate it.

Or if itʼs tasteful and obviously creative as opposed to compensatory... this  is  cute... which is very rare for  me to say of cosmetics (well,  this  is a South  Sudanese  chick  )

I have not noticed any differences in how the interactions go based on these minute variations. There are larger things that matter more like your vibe, non-neediness, tonality, how comfortable you are saying what you are saying, calmness in conversation etc.

Good point. Iʼve found that thereʼs a degree of latitude, where, as  long  as you have the really core mentality of outcome independence, moving  fast, not being the provider, etc., you can actually mess  things like  this up (as  Iʼve  been doing to  some  extent) and still win a  halfways reasonable percentage of the time. Girls do  like sex too, and most  guys they encounter are complete idiots whoʼll roll  over like  a lost  puppy.

Every girl I’ve ever (in past) fallen for has been physically appealing but also had some captivating personality trait, be it graciousness or cockiness. At once I  don’t want a nerdy girl — but that really meaning low social  intelligence.

And how will you know if not for clothes? ...

Get to know her?

Admittedly, you might not need to in the case of a chick with really low social intelligence, which might be apparent just from looking  at her  attire or how she moves, but those are 0.02%  of the girls youʼll see in a shopping  mall.

Iʼd expect there to be a much better chance to have a feel for her personality by, say, overhearing how she talks with her friends, than how sheʼs dressed. I  could maybe  see using that, here  and  there, to “cold  read” a girlʼs personality. Maybe I  should try  that! Might not be all  that accurate, but at  least itʼs  charming.

... Women who walk sexy in heels have grace. ...

You really canʼt judge a book by its cover. She could be a contract killer for  all  you know. In  fact, if I  had  to stereotype, I  could totally  see a contract  killer being the  one in  heels!!    

... Women who have no grace rely on crocs. ...

Ok, you might have a point there.    

I am the same. When a girl wears sweatpants and drags her feet but brags about her nails, I begin to fear her priorities.

There, too!!    

Now, if sheʼs not wearing those stupid nails and sheʼs not dragging her feet, but sheʼs just in sweatpants, Iʼm totally happy with  that, if sheʼs beautiful. Shows  me she can just be chill and doesnʼt think she has  to gussy  up to be beautiful. Hell, Iʼd probably rather  her than the  one dressed to  the  nines. The  latter, if I  had to stereotype, Iʼd  think, either sheʼs full  of herself, or she thinks she has  to compensate for something sheʼs  lacking.

Notice how there are so many contradictory things you could read  into the same clothing? Itʼs  incredibly  ambiguous!

 

[Chase]

@James D,

@Chase

Curious to hear your take on Hector's "raw open".

He mentioned it in a YouTube live stream and did a demo, which essentially consisted of "you're really beautiful"

Sincerity conquers all.

If you can tell her that and you REALLY mean it, and it is not coming from a place of need or scarcity, but more so you admiring her the way you would as a powerful, confident man admiring a work of art, then it works.

You want to save that for girls you really mean it with though.

If you try doing "You are really beautiful" on a girl you don't think is really beautiful it tends to work a lot less well.


@ThePhoenix,

There is an interesting subtlety here. On one hand this absolutely makes sense and would  have been my  thinking also. However I  seem to remember reading an article here which noted the importance of showing sexual  intent — i.e.,  not “hiding  the  banana”.

It noted that ideally you want to show intent with non-verbals (as @Will_V notes), but that if youʼre not at that level yet, compliments can substitute. But in that context, a compliment that isnʼt physical could  well  be platonic,  no?

I  guess, though, you want some ambiguity... like getting a cat to chase a feather: you have  to hold  it at the right distance.

Yes, but you also need to be pacing the emotions a girl is in.

Here's an argument from absurdity just to put it in perspective:

If she's walking down the street oblivious to you, thinking about what she has to do at work today, wondering if that annoying bitch Jennifer at work is going to be screwing with her at the meeting again, and then out of nowhere you pop in front of her with a raging hard-on in full view, drooped sexy eyes, your guttural sexy voice, and you grab her and tell her, "I could smell your pussy from half a block away. Are you ready to get it on?" she's going to break free of your grasp and run the other way in horror.

There is a happy medium between "total nice guy platonic" and "incredibly direct horny, dirty dog ready to hump" that is the sweet spot, and where that is varies by the girl and the state she is in. You need to go close to matching it, then pace and lead from there until you are both displaying equivalent amounts of arousal.

Then you can whip that dick out and tell her about smelling her pussy and she will just jump all over you at that point.

Iʼll try to pay more attention to womenʼs clothes. Maybe try a compromise. If Iʼm not even remotely impressed, or sheʼs dressed too plain, as  you  say, forego the compliment. Maybe try  it here  and  there if I  can at  least somewhat appreciate something. @Will_V did mention in  the other thread that compliments ideally have a degree of ambiguity; so maybe I  donʼt need to be that impressed, without being  fake.

It doesn't even have to be clothes.

Here's an assignment: spend the next week trying to come up with one thing about every woman you see that you like about her, other than her physical features.

It could be:

• The way she moves
• The way she carries herself
• Her posture
• The regal way she holds her chin
• How professional/artsy/eclectic/punk/defiant she seems
• How clear and crisp her voice is as she talks to people
• A certain aura or energy she has about her
• How messy and free her hair is (or how tight and polished, how trendy, how casual, etc. it is)
• How silky and healthy and vibrant her hair is

Etc. etc.

Right now, you may not notice any of these things, may not care about them, and may not value them.

But after a week spent closely observing women and pressing yourself to identify something other than physical bodily features you like about them, you are going to start to have things stand out to you that allow you to differentiate one woman from another in ways that appeal to you.

Chase

 

[superseducer]

“Look at how clever I  am! I  managed to assemble these trinkets.”

This is hilarious.

 

[ThePhoenix]

If she's walking down the street oblivious to you, thinking about what she has to do at work today, wondering if that annoying bitch Jennifer at work is going to be screwing with her at the meeting again, and then out of nowhere you pop in front of her with a raging hard-on in full view, drooped sexy eyes, your guttural sexy voice, and you grab her and tell her, "I could smell your pussy from half a block away. Are you ready to get it on?" she's going to break free of your grasp and run the other way in horror.

 Priceless!

Come to think of it, before I  started complimenting as a matter of course, I  did get a  few dates without offering any compliments at  all. So, as  long  as you’re moving forward with some confidence, she’s not likely to take  you for platonic.

Back when I  was the clueless nice guy, the problem wasn’t so  much that I  was hiding the banana when I  first  met a girl (I  did  get some initial interest); it was more that I  continued to hide  it until getting friendzoned.

It doesn't even have to be clothes.

Here's an assignment: spend the next week trying to come up with one thing about every woman you see that you like about her, other than her physical features.

It could be:

• The way she moves
• The way she carries herself
• Her posture
• The regal way she holds her chin
• How professional/artsy/eclectic/punk/defiant she seems
• How clear and crisp her voice is as she talks to people
• A certain aura or energy she has about her
• How messy and free her hair is (or how tight and polished, how trendy, how casual, etc. it is)
• How silky and healthy and vibrant her hair is

Etc. etc.

Good point — from me, theseʼd be more heartfelt than compliments on clothes, in most cases. Iʼll look  out for them.

I  do notice some of these already, but only after taking in more substantial self‑expression.

For example, thereʼs a cutie who works at the grocery store. She has this chill, sweet yet confident aura.

But I  know this only because Iʼve seen her interact with everyone — underlings, superiors, customers — and have had time to pick  up  on her subtle mannerisms. I  have  a  mental picture of her that I  wouldnʼt  have of a random girl  in  a  mall.

Sometimes I  notice things in female DJs on YouTube — how they move to the music, the smile when they drop a hot track, or the bounce in their arm when hitting the cue  button. Thereʼs this magnetic vibe that Iʼll notice quite rapidly. (good  example,  lively; or, this  one  is more laid  back,  sensual)

But here, her personality is on display in a way it usually isnʼt in day  game. Iʼm not gonna catch  this off a girl just standing at a bus  stop. The only cues she might give  off in such a situation will usually be subliminal.

Attraction operates mostly below the level of conscious awareness. In  the end, I  can’t really say what specifically drew  me to a girl, any  more than the girl you seduced yesterday knows why she went home with  you.

Sincerity conquers all.

This reminds me of something from way back.

I  was dining at a restaurant/bar with friends when I  noticed one of the waitresses, a cute mixed  girl with her hair in a twist‑out (a  natural style for Afro  hair). I  randomly stopped  her and said, “I  love  your  hair!”

I  was not trying to seduce her — in fact, at the time, I  thought this would be seduction  suicide. Mystery had recently beaten the nice  guy right the  hell out  of  me, and I  believed you needed tons of DHV, negging, and getting obvious IOIs before even thinking  about complimenting a girl — much  less a bar  waitress!

I  said it anyway because I  really care about black women’s beautiful natural hair. They face so  much pressure to straighten  it or wear weave — long,  straight hair from an Indian  girl, sewn onto her head. So when I  see a black girl proudly rocking her natural hair, I  want to make sure she feels good about  it.

Her response was what youʼd expect from a waitress getting compliments — gracious but somewhat detached. But  then I  added, “It’s  a  nice  change from all  the  weave.”

Girlʼs face just lit up! She thanked me again, and this time it felt absolutely genuine. She became noticeably friendlier, clearly taken out  of autopilot.

I  just got her name and let her get back to work. A little later, she came  over to check  on  us. This wouldnʼt have been unusual — except that she wasn’t our waitress, and our actual waitress was  on  hand.

I  was taken off guard (it was game over, remember?), so unfortunately I  didnʼt even  try to pick  her  up. But it  was an interesting data  point.

 

[Bismarck]

I like how you articulated your ideas, OP, and I can empathize with your struggles. I also wish girls could understand what we find attractive about them (which will tend to be their natural beauty and genetic inheritance).

Nevertheless, I'm not as extreme as you. Yesterday I invited this Belarusian girl for a drink after the tour and when I saw she was wearing baggy jeans and those army boots under her coat, it was a huge turn-off to the extent that I asked her if she was a lesbian lmao.

I think a good sense of style increases a girl's attractiveness. However, it does often happen that a naturally beautiful girl or a girl that I'm attracted to on a raw, primal, level, has just the same style as all the other girls (they seem to follow fashion trends blindly), so nothing stands out and a style compliment would seem contrived.

 

[ThePhoenix]

I’ve noticed some confusing general examples on the main site:

“I know, I’m kidding. I just thought you were cute and wanted to come say hi. I’m Chase.”
“... I just thought you were pretty and I wanted to say hello. ...”

@Chase spelled out earlier in this thread why verbally letting on to liking a girlʼs physical phenotype is usually a bad idea. Yet, these examples for  all  intents and purposes do  just  that — what  guy calls a girl “cute” or “pretty” whose physical phenotype he doesnʼt  like? Youʼd find different words if all  you liked was her style.

Are these examples flawed? Or do these particular physical beauty compliments somehow avoid the weaknesses?

... Yesterday I invited this Belarusian girl for a drink after the tour and when I saw she was wearing baggy jeans and those army boots under her coat, it was a huge turn-off to the extent that I asked her if she was a lesbian lmao.

I  have some turn-offs, too. Shaved totally bald. Cigarettes. Or those hideous nerd glasses the lesbian SJWs wear.

But army boots? Not sure Iʼd mind. This made me think.

Girliness isnʼt all that attractive to me. Iʼd rather a tomboy than a super-girly girl. One  of my teen crushes became a lesbian, and sheʼs not the only one Iʼve liked. I  prefer a person who happens to be biologically female over someone whose identity revolves around exaggerated, cartoonish femininity.

Even physically, Iʼm less attracted to the most feminine bodies, preferring taller, darker, more robust, medium‑busted women. My brain does want to know there are eggs in there, but it doesnʼt want a neon  sign — especially one that disadvantages the creature.

As an experiment, I  searched “butch black woman” images. The word “butch” conjures something too extreme, and I  didnʼt  like most  of them. But one caught my eye. Fairly beautiful face. She was in a grey sports bra, and boxers showing above low‑riding dark  green khaki shorts. Tats all  over — skulls, snakes, and abstracts. Hands hung nonchalantly from her hips. “Donʼt  cross  me” look on her face. No  makeup. If it wasnʼt for the female body, sheʼd have been some gangsta dude.

I  asked myself, “Do you like this?” “No. Not quite. But if you swap that boyish gelled fade for a cute Afro  puff, and keep everything else identical — pose  included — yeah, sheʼd be sexy.” Just  one simple token of voluntary femininity, and Iʼd like her more  than all those girls who cover  up with makeup, ridiculous fake eyelashes, frilly clothes, and talk in some ditsy voice.

Maybe Iʼm in the wrong place. Should be on tomboyschase.com, discussing ninja  stars.

I  think my ideal chick is largely a tomboy but with a feminine side. Glad you brought  up the boots — helped  me see this. I  do appreciate femininity, but it often slides into girliness. Most girls Iʼd prefer to be a  tad less girly, which makes fashion compliments feel forced.

Not that I  completely dislike womenʼs fashion, but for me, its appeal is more restrained. It works best as a counterbalance. Imagine a girl in baggy jeans and a wife‑beater, covered in tats, looking  like sheʼs about  to deck  someone. . . . . . but  thereʼs a flower in her  hair.

Here, the flower might actually be cute. It would add a touch of softness that might get  me curious. Yet, the  same flower in the hair of a super‑frilly, overly made‑up girl would make  me want  to puke.

... However, it does often happen that a naturally beautiful girl or a girl that I'm attracted to on a raw, primal, level, has just the same style as all the other girls (they seem to follow fashion trends blindly), so nothing stands out and a style compliment would seem contrived.

A similar problem arises when the girl just hasn’t bothered. I  actually like that, but it rules  out a style compliment — unless I  turn the absence  itself into  one.

What do you do in these cases? Just go indirect? That does require more skill in maintaining sexy undertones.

All this may well be the wakeup call that forces me to roll  up my sleeves and really learn James  Bond indirect.

 

[Chase]

@ThePhoenix,

I’ve noticed some confusing general examples on the main site:

“I know, I’m kidding. I just thought you were cute and wanted to come say hi. I’m Chase.”
“... I just thought you were pretty and I wanted to say hello. ...”

@Chase spelled out earlier in this thread why verbally letting on to liking a girlʼs physical phenotype is usually a bad idea. Yet, these examples for  all  intents and purposes do  just  that — what  guy calls a girl “cute” or “pretty” whose physical phenotype he doesnʼt  like? Youʼd find different words if all  you liked was her style.

Are these examples flawed? Or do these particular physical beauty compliments somehow avoid the weaknesses?

That is from this article, if I'm not mistaken:

Easy Opening with Indirect Direct

Something I like prescribing for newer guys as a very low-pressure but high-impact and really quite easy opener is something I’ve begun referring to as “Indirect Direct”, for lack of a better term. Your run of the mill, general indirect opening – or, engaging a woman in conversation under...

www.girlschase.com

These are for following up a jokey-funny opener that she laughs about but also gets a little confused about.

Basically, you are putting her in a discombobulated state first, where she does not know what is going on.

You then pull her back down to reality by anchoring it with a beauty-based but somewhat throwaway compliment.

Then you continue on with a normal early conversation to hook her.

The emotional journey for the girl is:

1. "What? What is he saying? What's happening?"
2. "Oh, he likes me then... but he was just pulling my leg!"

It's a high attainability move after you have shown direct (and potentially condescending) control over her emotions by confusing her.

You cannot excerpt the compliment without having the amusing-discombobulating first part of the opener and expect it to work the same.

Chase

 

[James D]

@James D,



Sincerity conquers all.

If you can tell her that and you REALLY mean it, and it is not coming from a place of need or scarcity, but more so you admiring her the way you would as a powerful, confident man admiring a work of art, then it works.

You want to save that for girls you really mean it with though.

If you try doing "You are really beautiful" on a girl you don't think is really beautiful it tends to work a lot less well.

Matches my experience indeed!

Some of my best lays came from opening with sincere compliments.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Basically, you are putting her in a discombobulated state first, where she does not know what is going on.

You then pull her back down to reality by anchoring it with a beauty-based but somewhat throwaway compliment.

...

The emotional journey for the girl is:

1. "What? What is he saying? What's happening?"
2. "Oh, he likes me then... but he was just pulling my leg!"

It's a high attainability move after you have shown direct (and potentially condescending) control over her emotions by confusing her.

Ah! Totally makes sense now that you put it that way. Thank you for clarifying!