Is it really over if you don't kiss on the first date?

[ThePicker]

Hello huntmates!

I am a little bit confused about this particular topic.

I have friends who don't kiss/make out with their dates on the first date but fuck with them on the 2nd or 3rd one regardless.

I have also dated girls whom I haven't kissed until the 3rd date, and that didn't seem to be an issue.

I know that the ideal situation would be to have sex on the 1st date after having generated a lot of romance and having qualified the girl/made her feel special.

She would think along the lines of "I have never gone so fast with a guy, he must be special, he must be the chosen one".

Yet, we all know that having sex on the first date is not always possible; maybe you get along but still need more time to generate more trust, maybe the logistics are not good, and a large etc.

I've had a date today that I've not been able to kiss-close.

Basically, some girls still have this old-fashioned mentality of 'no kissing on the first date' where Im living now.

I jumped for the kiss but she rejected it, yet we ended up hugging and caressing each other. (Though she still rejected the kiss)

My questions are thus:

-From your experience, how bad is it to not kiss or to not have sex on the first date?
Have you managed to get 2nd or 3rd dates with girls that you couldn't kiss-close on the 1st date?

-How can I have amazing dates and stand out from all the other guys (from the competition), without relying on logistical factors and without necessarily having sex or making out?

I have seen that, when I generate a lot of trust and get a lot of emotional investment from my dates, even if we don't kiss, they're always willing to keep meeting up - indeed, they're the ones who end up asking me out.

-I intend this question to also be an important 'post-script'.

All the questions and all the premises of this post assume and take for granted that, even if you haven't kissed or had sex, you still have this romantic and sexual direction with the girl - and she is aware of it.

So the question is, is not advancing fast enough that much of an issue if you still have this sexual and romantical lead with her (that is, if she's well aware of your intentions)?

Thanks guys!

 

[PalmaSailor]

Hey it’s no real problem not kissing on the first date, some guys actually don’t go for it on purpose. That’s actually different from going for it and being rejected which indicates not enough attraction. She either doesn’t like you at all, or has you pegged as BB as opposed to AF (which is where you want to be)

You should be able to escalate to get a first night lay, but sometimes that backfires and her ASD kicks in and she’ll ghost you after that anyway.

With normal dating with a women who is balanced and sane you should be at the mattress date 3. If she’s “not ready” by then, she just isn’t feeling it and she’s just keeping you on a string so tell her she’s a great girl and deserves to be happy and kick her out of your life and move on.

 

[Skjöldr]

no it doesnt really matter

 

[Vision]

Unless you're planning on sleeping with her on the first date, I recommend not kissing her. And even if you do, I recommend not doing it until you get to the sex location.

 

[ThePicker]

Unless you're planning on sleeping with her on the first date, I recommend not kissing her. And even if you do, I recommend not doing it until you get to the sex location.

Why exactly?

 

[Bismarck]

To avoid firing up her ASD, making it easier to extract her to SL.

 

[Skjöldr]

Unless you're planning on sleeping with her on the first date, I recommend not kissing her. And even if you do, I recommend not doing it until you get to the sex location.

basically what i do, with few exceptions

 

[ThePicker]

basically what i do, with few exceptions

Why?

Do you really get 2nd dates with women you didn't kiss on the 1st date?

Here at girlschase they always recommend to advance/escalate as fast as possible

 

[Vision]

Why exactly?

Like Bismark said, it creates ASD.

Here's what you need to do... go on some first dates and kiss girls... go on some first dates and don't kiss girls... see what happens when you try to pull without kisses and with kissing... see how many show up to a second date with kissing and without kissing.

The answers you seek are in the field.

We're all different and different things work with everyone.

I know guys that say the friendzone is the worst place to be... I know guys who get most of their lays from deliberately going into the friendzone.

I know guys who don't touch a girl until they're about to have sex... I know guys who start touching immediately.

I know guys who go for the kiss every time on the first date... I know guys who never do.

The secret is learning your own style that works for you and calibrating to the situation you're in (imo).

 

[Glow]

Hello

let me try to give some perspective here.

Initially, just Know that you can learn to kiss open girls only to snl them later. Just to broadn your mind on that theres more to it.

Think of and learn to understand kissing as just a part of escalation and not consider it such as single key move of impact. Sixty, sleazy and the letter etc taught us that long time ago. The overemphasis on kissing is just popular belief and clumsy make-out types. As an example of what the community has taught us is that we can just reframe what kissing is through sexual nuance delivered eg verbally as eg. teevster has taught and showed us long time ago can be done with sex talk related doings. And there are many models for handling this.

You wanna Look at how you kiss - eg kiss to excite and arouse is different from all in makeouts, sensory kissing etc. if you kiss to arouse and swerve it in sexual frames and sensitivity to her the ASD will not happen. And there are ways to manage her past that point. Especially if you combine it with playfulness, use of silent space, proximity and other stimulators that smoothns it all up. This is just a majority as if shes already sexually activated you can use it differently.

To OP - best move for you is to look at micro escalation from MASF days - sixty years of challenge and try to understand the small points of micro escalation before the kiss. eg use of slowed down proximity to arouse. eg escalating the vibe and using silence etc.

Then expand your understanding of that to create moments and sensing where she is on the dates instead of caring too much about the kiss. all the moments we can make as part of escalatory doings. moments of deep bliss, moments of pure sexuality, moments of nostalgic romanticism etc. its on moments, discretion behaviours etc.

Moments and how you kiss can create a whole different experience of the kiss for her. The starting point is ofc where she is for how you engage. But the seductive challenge is to alter that initially if shes back heeling on it for whatever mental reasons.

Example: Just move close to her and oose and relax in closer proximity w her. Your bodies and the space will do the work. You can either do this w silence or as you stroll along something, more subtle. This creates a moment between you where she feels something. playfully pushing her will too. aligning your face after she speaks and holding the silence for a few secs will too. leading her around the place a bit behind her, hand on her waist will too. maybe a more firm look or presence to emphasise a more dominant or purposeful vibe. Appreciating something she does explicitly is a sensual-affectionate smoothner too etc etc. each forms soft points or moments that enables your moves. This all happens in with other things you do as you interact but provide the escalatory layer and momentum between you. Sixty outlines a simple model thats good for learning this.

Also consider her state - if shes sexually aroused and has hit a carefree mood its no prob. the date setup should be adjusted to provide a frame that stimulates the right thing eg sexuality and wildness instead of oldscool courtship etc. Ofc. this needs to b related to her and her starting point for things. but take charge of these things smartly. Work it. Know your influence.

 

[Skills]

Hello

let me try to give some perspective here.

Initially, just Know that you can learn to kiss open girls only to snl them later. Just to broadn your mind on that theres more to it.

Think of and learn to understand kissing as just a part of escalation and not consider it such as single key move of impact. Sixty, sleazy and the letter etc taught us that long time ago. The overemphasis on kissing is just popular belief and clumsy make-out types. As an example of what the community has taught us is that we can just reframe what kissing is through sexual nuance delivered eg verbally as eg. teevster has taught and showed us long time ago.

You wanna Look at how you kiss - eg kiss to excite and arouse is different from all in makeouts, sensory kissing etc. if you kiss to arouse and swerve it in sexual frames and sensitivity to her the ASD will not happen. And there are ways to manage her past that point. Especially if you combine it with playfulness, use of silent space, proximity and other stimulators that smoothns it all up. This is just a majority as if shes already sexually activated you can use it differently.

To OP - best move for you is to look at micro escalation from MASF days - sixty years of challenge and try to understand the small points of micro escalation before the kiss. eg use of slowed down proximity to arouse. eg escalating the vibe and using silence etc.

Then expand your understanding of that to create moments and sensing where she is on the dates instead of caring too much about the kiss. all the moments we can make as part of escalatory doings. moments of deep bliss, moments of pure sexuality, moments of nostalgic romanticism etc. its on moments, discretion behaviours etc.

moments and how you kiss can create a whole different experience of the kiss for her. The starting point is ofc where she is. But the seductive challenge is to alter that initially. for me im more about creating great music on the date, so i dont care at all about the kiss. The micro-sensory-vibes exchanged and what she does to me is much more interesting from my place. Just to say there are other things way beyond the kiss that can be a more interesting focus if you learn the broader context of date like situations or just pickups.

example: Just move close to her and oose and relax in stronger proximity w her. Your bodies and the space will do the work. This creates a moment between you where she feels something. playfully pushing her will too. aligning your face after she speaks and holding the silence for a few secs will too. leading her around the place a bit behind her, hand on her waist will too. telling her you enjoy spending time w her and letting it hang also. appreciating something she does explicitly is a sensual-affectionate smoothner too etc etc. each forms soft points or moments that enables your moves.

also consider her state - if shes sexually aroused kissing is no prob. if shes in carefree mood its irrelevant. the date setup should be adjusted to provide a frame that stimulates the right thing eg sexuality and wildness instead of oldscool courtship etc. Ofc. this related to her and her starting point for things. but take charge of these things smartly. Work it. Know your influence.

Glow has the right answer, Google 60yoc secrets of micro escalation it is a free pdf.... the problem is not, not kissing, it is how you go about it and timing.... I never laid a girl that I didn't kiss... the problem is sloppy make outs out of timing that spike buying temperature and then crash vs sexually building sexual tension and micro escalating teasing... no kissing and escalating can be interpreted by the girl as lack of chemistry, also you have the problem of out of the blue escalating with one big move which will cause asd...

 

[HumanWhoLearns]

I've kissed most of the women I've dated in a small sample size and it doesn't matter much. With better game I could've possibly flipped the girl who I shared an awesome kiss with but otherwise not much of a connection with. I pulled her in for a kiss and she just went with it even though our date was p bad. I wouldn't say it's necessary or will lead to anything on its own but you'll get better at it the more you do it and you'll get the need to kiss every girl you date out of your system.

 

[Rain]

I know guys who get most of their lays from deliberately going into the friendzone.

How long are they in the friendzone for until they are able to change that to sleeping together?

Also, did they usually end up as
-ONS, or
-FWB for a few months, or
-some sort of LTR or OLTR?

 

[Vision]

How long are they in the friendzone for until they are able to change that to sleeping together?

As short of a time as possible, just to develop comfort, attraction, trust, and create an obstacle between them and sex so that she's turned on and wants it more.

It could be a few days or a week or two... probably don't want to go longer than that. The longer you're in the friendzone, the more difficult it is to break out of it, unless there's really strong sexual tension between the two of you.

But that's what the plan is anyway, slip in under the radar and then build large amounts of sexual tension until you're just naturally banging each other.

If you're in the friend zone and acting like a friend, you're going to be stuck in the friend zone. If you're in the friend zone and creating large amounts of sexual tension but using friendship as an excuse not to fuck, it's really easy to go from that to sex.

Also, did they usually end up as
-ONS, or
-FWB for a few months, or
-some sort of LTR or OLTR?

You can really do whatever you want to. You just need to frame it correctly from the beginning and then abide by the FWB rules, if that's what you want.

The reason guys can't do FWB with a lot of girls is because they frame it incorrectly from the start, they lie, or they tell a girl that they want a FWB situation and then treat her like a girlfriend, which confuses her (we're taught that actions speak louder than words and it tricks most women's brains, ime... plus oxytocin and all that jazz).

I know it's hard. Honestly, I'm bad at doing the FWB rules... I like to create lots of passion and excitement with girls I'm seeing because seeing each other and sex is better that way.

But they get attached super fast if you do that. Then if you break up with them because you weren't that serious about them in the first place, it's more painful to them.

So it's better to follow the FWB rules.

 

[Fuck This]

If you don't have the logistics to SNL, I recommend keeping the first date short and high on kino but not a "kiss and pet party". Gotta leave her wanting more.
From my experience:
I've met women at concerts and had them in a lip lock right in the middle of the crowd and all I parted with was a phone number. never converted
I've been point blank asked by a woman I got out on an lunch instadate to please kiss her. I obliged and it took away all the sexual tension. One more date and we never consummated the deed.
I've had more than one woman at the bar sticking her tongue down my throat on the dance floor, who left with her friends . I mean POOF and Gone.

So i've adopted the attitude of "Don't start what you can't finish." And I tell women as much. It actually makes them TRY HARDER.

Now if you HAVE logistics...Don't kiss in public, but at that moment of isolation in the pull when you are finally alone. Maybe in a hall way or elevator. Enough to get her turned on . Propose the pull and if she rejects then leave and mean it. Don't linger. She needs to know she can lose you.

 

[ulrich]

Well… it is actually down to calibration, wether the girl will accept or not the kiss, and wether it is the right move… you have to feel it.
I can tell you, I have had dates where I kissed the girl and it was a bad move.

But calibration is advanced, you need to spend a lot of time in the field to get references so you can “feel” if it’s the right move.

So we have all these rules that work as crutches: get the kiss on the first date, get laid the first time she goes to your place, wait one day before texting an invite, approach in three seconds…
These rules are tools to keep you moving forward when you are a newbie, over time you have to outgrow them.

Over time you choose what you want and get to know the kind of girl you are dating and make the right decision.
This is not advice I can give to newbies… this is for intermediates and advanced ones.

Also keep in mind that many guys here will tell you that you SHOULD definitely get sex on the first date.
Most of those guys are trying to get tons of sex, not a high-quality girlfriend so they don’t care about retention… they don’t care if they have sex and she stops answering… but what about you? What do you want?

 

[Bismarck]

I agree with pretty much everything you said here uriel, except the part about whether or not sex on the first date is what a guy wants.

A guy should always want sex on the first date. It is simply always more convenient for him, unless it is well-nigh impossible for whatever reason, in which case purevil's 3-date sex method should be adopted.

Check this article out for more on this topic.

 

[Skills]

Well… it is actually down to calibration, wether the girl will accept or not the kiss, and wether it is the right move… you have to feel it.
I can tell you, I have had dates where I kissed the girl and it was a bad move.

But calibration is advanced, you need to spend a lot of time in the field to get references so you can “feel” if it’s the right move.

So we have all these rules that work as crutches: get the kiss on the first date, get laid the first time she goes to your place, wait one day before texting an invite, approach in three seconds…
These rules are tools to keep you moving forward when you are a newbie, over time you have to outgrow them.

Over time you choose what you want and get to know the kind of girl you are dating and make the right decision.
This is not advice I can give to newbies… this is for intermediates and advanced ones.

Also keep in mind that many guys here will tell you that you SHOULD definitely get sex on the first date.
Most of those guys are trying to get tons of sex, not a high-quality girlfriend so they don’t care about retention… they don’t care if they have sex and she stops answering… but what about you? What do you want?

Geez, so if you sleep with a girl fast, that means she can not be a high quality girlfriend? It seems half of the forum don't understand still the secret society and maddona whore complex...other than that the no kissing none sense is for guys that don't know how to escalate properly with the containment and bubble...proper kissing should be her initiating in most cases, and you making it work for it

 

[ulrich]

I agree with pretty much everything you said here uriel, except the part about whether or not sex on the first date is what a guy wants.

A guy should always want sex on the first date. It is simply always more convenient for him, unless it is well-nigh impossible for whatever reason, in which case purevil's 3-date sex method should be adopted.

Check this article out for more on this topic.

@Bismarck, thanks I’ll read the article.

@Bismarck and @Skills, it is my personal experience (no KJ) that some kinds of girls would write me off if I push too far for sex on the first date, even if I get it.
They will stop answering my messages or stop meeting with me.
Yay!! I got the sex but I lost the girl.

It could be that something’s off with my method, or maybe is a particular kind of girls I date… but it seems to me that these women are the ones suffering the Madonna-whore complex and they don’t want to be seen as whores so they reject themselves.

What has worked for me lately is to slow things off and not pushing THAT fast for sex (again, not something I would recommend to newbies).
But if you know a way to get sex on the first date AND having reliable retention, I’m all ears.

 

[Skills]

@Bismarck, thanks I’ll read the article.

@Bismarck and @Skills, it is my personal experience (no KJ) that some kinds of girls would write me off if I push too far for sex on the first date, even if I get it.
They will stop answering my messages or stop meeting with me.
Yay!! I got the sex but I lost the girl.

It could be that something’s off with my method, or maybe is a particular kind of girls I date… but it seems to me that these women are the ones suffering the Madonna-whore complex and they don’t want to be seen as whores so they reject themselves.

What has worked for me lately is to slow things off and not pushing THAT fast for sex (again, not something I would recommend to newbies).
But if you know a way to get sex on the first date AND having reliable retention, I’m all ears.

Are you setting no judgmental secret society frames, this should not happen... how is your behavior post busting a nut? Are you texting properly post sex, " that was hot with 3 fire emojis? Etc.... causation correlation