Is the term "Push-Pull" outdated

[Tony D]

I've been using the term push pull for years. It's the old "I like you but we'd never get along, we're too similar," sort of thing. I think Mark Manson called it "Polarity" and it's often confused with breaking and creating rapport, which is a bit different. Sometimes it can just be called teasing, but that's not even it. Is there a more modern term that's been used? Or is it still push pull?

 

[KJ Francis]

There's fractionating (fractionation?), which may also be a bit different. Pretty sure it's Teevster's term

 

[StrayDog]

There's fractionating (fractionation?), which may also be a bit different. Pretty sure it's Teevster's term

fractionation is where you break up certain topics into small progressive "chapters" throughout the seduction. These are usually topics that A:move the seduction forward and B: Would be too intense if dwelled on too long, or too out of nowhere if not introduced early in smaller ways. I do this mostly with logistics and sex talk. Start small at the beginning of the interaction by planting the seeds, then through out keep looping back to the subject at a pace that is proportionate to where the seduction is at at any given moment. Each time you come back to the subject you get deeper into it and up the ante.

For example, you wouldn't just walk up to a woman and be like "excuse me where do you live? how many people do you live with? Is it a good place for hosting people? How far is it from here? What if we went over there now?" That would be rude and creepy. So you start with a small logistic seed after you've broken the ice a bit "so what are you up to today?" (planting the seed). Then later on, once there is more familiarity "sounds like you have an eye for design. I bet you're one of those gals who's apartment is super curated. Attention to every decoration" (not only building rapport about her character, but gathering logistics about her living situation). And so on. By the time big moves are to be made there is already a precedent of the you two discussing the subject together, plus she has already invested in the frame work in smaller (albeit increasing) ways. This makes it easy to escalate, and make moves.

@Teevster has tons of examples of how to do this with sex talk at each phase of the seduction.

I could understand why you would link this to push-pull as there is an element of it in there. You are in a sense pulling her closer then stepping away. Especially when sex talk starts to build steam and you segue away from the subject to keep tension in the interaction. But there is a much of a different function with fractionation and it is not quite the same qualify-disqualify technique as push-pull is traditionally known to be. Might use push pull in your fractionation but they are different techniques overall.

@Tony D I never quite found much use for push-pull as you've described it here, beyond a playful tease. Used at the right moment it can build connection through humor, and even get her to qualify herself. But it has always felt like a technique used in small measure for very specific moments. I found that too much of it would het worn too quickly and often lead to resistance on her part when it came time to move.

As a general larger concept I can understand it as receding and proceeding. That is being more present and generous with your warmth and attention when she is investing in the interaction and a bit more distant and cool when she isn't investing. Which could be tied into creating/breaking rapport I suppose. But I think you are correct that this is a bit different concept even though one could say there is an element of pushing away and pulling closer.

There is also pulling away at juicy high points to build tension. Like when the second gen is peaking and you are running a sex gambit and its getting steamy, you are standing in close to eachother and then you pull away and are like "but of course you can't go there with just anybody, there's gotta be chemistry. That's a mysterious thing you can't control." I guess you could say this is push pull in a sense that you put distance in the interaction to build tension. But again this isn't quite the same qualify-disqualify technique that push-pull tends to be known as.

I remember Tod V going on about push-pull a bunch and I always thought it seemed contrived when he would do it. Like yeah, maybe once or twice in the interaction when she is giving you guff, ribbing you, or shit testing . Can be a good humor way to bust through that sort of thing. I found it to be effective on particularly sassy women, a few moments after you pass a shit test. Get her to start qualifying. But I always understood it as a small tool you could occasionally bust out, and not an overarching strategic principle like fractionation.

I also found it to be easy to misuse and send her into autorejection, or just come across as try hard.

I often wondered why guys like Tod V put so much emphasis on it.

That at least is my understanding, maybe some of the other guys have some insights here.

In terms of the name for it, I think when describing that specific qualify-disqualify tease technique, works just fine. But if we are looking for a larger conceptual technique that is describing the ebb and flow of your attention and energy during a seduction, as a means of drawing her near then creating space, for chemistry and tension. To generate investment. Well maybe there is a better term.

 

[Tony D]

There's fractionating (fractionation?), which may also be a bit different. Pretty sure it's Teevster's term

Actually that goes back to NLP or even before that. It's not push pull.

 

[KJ Francis]

Actually that goes back to NLP or even before that. It's not push pull.

Is push pull as a term meant to exclusively describe a short time scale technique with active disqualification?

Or could it include relationship investment fluctuation over time to give her like a THC tolerance break from the good feelings you provide and not let her get used to the cadence?

@StrayDog that was really helpful, and yeah the temperature dial was what seemed the same. Sex talk or logistics/future talk turned on, then off to let her chill; rinse/repeat. Same with escalation... Bursts of passion cycling

A key component of music is silence.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Is push pull as a term meant to exclusively describe a short time scale technique with active disqualification?

You could look at it that way - but I very much doubt that girl experiences "disqualification" the way push/pull is taught/promoted in 2023.

If anything push/pull in 2023 is just banter. Throw it in their with roleplaying, jokes, stories, etc. It's supposed to be fun, not real disqualification. (I sorta think disqualification is very powerful, but it's never been really used in PUA even in the golden era)

But "I love you, I hate you". "Let's get married/the wedding's off" - typical push pull stuff - is about creating a fun atmosphere. More "give and take" rather than the chick thinking you're not actually into her.

This sort of gets into theory, on what we're trying to do in the early stages - but personally i've found a lot of the real tech in PUA is so much overkill for the typical party girl/bar fly/chick just going about her day. Maybe we should have a larger discussion on what disqualification is, and how to use it, and when to use it, and for what purpose....

A real "push pull" would either be on a longer time scale, or it would really feel like the girl is being pushed away.

Time
Like say you have a great first date, hook up, and then don't immediately call her. That's a push, that creates doubt.

Does he like me?

And then "the pull" is when you see her again, and you're over the top with your emotions for her (aka love-bombing).

Chicks do this all the time, though I wonder if it's intentional. This is the hot/cold treatment, and usually happens over a larger time frame. And it can happen over a larger time frame, because guys tunnel vision a chick/"one special girl". I digress.

A real push

You've got the girl hooked on the social aspect, joking and laughing and sharing.

Then she says something that causes some sort of unexpected reaction on your part.

PUA - "Wait what did you say?"
Girl - *befuddled*
PUA - with a more insistent tone - WHAT DID YOU JUST SAY?
Girl - *realizing she messed up somehow and your whole demeanor changed*

^That's the type of push/pull dynamic that's sort of beyond the stuff being taught today by most of the Youtube Gurus.

It's the sort of thing that you'll see a girl just pull out of nowhere. She gets triggered, and the guy starts to scramble for something to get the vibe back.

As an aside, of a lot of typical attractive woman being pursued by a man behavior is very powerful when flipped on chicks.

But When we do it, it's canned MANipulation*.

WIA

*I couldn't resist a dumb pun, lol

 

[KJ Francis]

You could look at it that way - but I very much doubt that girl experiences "disqualification" the way push/pull is taught/promoted in 2023.

If anything push/pull in 2023 is just banter. Throw it in their with roleplaying, jokes, stories, etc. It's supposed to be fun, not real disqualification. (I sorta think disqualification is very powerful, but it's never been really used in PUA even in the golden era)

But "I love you, I hate you". "Let's get married/the wedding's off" - typical push pull stuff - is about creating a fun atmosphere. More "give and take" rather than the chick thinking you're not actually into her.

This sort of gets into theory, on what we're trying to do in the early stages - but personally i've found a lot of the real tech in PUA is so much overkill for the typical party girl/bar fly/chick just going about her day. Maybe we should have a larger discussion on what disqualification is, and how to use it, and when to use it, and for what purpose....

A real "push pull" would either be on a longer time scale, or it would really feel like the girl is being pushed away.

Time
Like say you have a great first date, hook up, and then don't immediately call her. That's a push, that creates doubt.

Does he like me?

And then "the pull" is when you see her again, and you're over the top with your emotions for her (aka love-bombing).

Chicks do this all the time, though I wonder if it's intentional. This is the hot/cold treatment, and usually happens over a larger time frame. And it can happen over a larger time frame, because guys tunnel vision a chick/"one special girl". I digress.

A real push

You've got the girl hooked on the social aspect, joking and laughing and sharing.

Then she says something that causes some sort of unexpected reaction on your part.



^That's the type of push/pull dynamic that's sort of beyond the stuff being taught today by most of the Youtube Gurus.

It's the sort of thing that you'll see a girl just pull out of nowhere. She gets triggered, and the guy starts to scramble for something to get the vibe back.

As an aside, of a lot of typical attractive woman being pursued by a man behavior is very powerful when flipped on chicks.

But When we do it, it's canned MANipulation*.

WIA

*I couldn't resist a dumb pun, lol

Hey thanks for the comprehensive writeup. This is sweet.

Tonight I was laying with a girl who neutrally mentioned the tiny bit of gray in my stubble. I said I guess I'm too old for you then, and pulled back a tiny bit. She leaned in and said you don't look that old.

 

[Jan]

PUSH-PULL AS I UNDERSTAND IT

I understand push-pull in the context of escalation(push)-comfort(pull) dynamics. I push the escalation/seduction forward to see if can go further. If I encounter resistance, I pull to comfort. Then I try again later. It's the most useful technique in late stage game (isolated in sex location) for me. I think in this sense, the push-pull is used in the same/similar meaning as fractionation. By escalating you invite her into sexual trance, then you pull her out of it, and when you escalate to trance again, the trance supposed to be stronger than last time (NLP fractionation).

PUSH-PULL AS I READ ABOUT ONLINE

I also remember seeing some articles about this concept online, when the terms were used slightly different. Pushing was used to ramp up your attraction (or lower her self-value, if using negs) and then pulling her in (showing similarities, building rapport, improving attainability and comfort in general). I tried this few times in this context, almost never worked for me so I dropped it.

 

[Skills]

I've been using the term push pull for years. It's the old "I like you but we'd never get along, we're too similar," sort of thing. I think Mark Manson called it "Polarity" and it's often confused with breaking and creating rapport, which is a bit different. Sometimes it can just be called teasing, but that's not even it. Is there a more modern term that's been used? Or is it still push pull?

no push pull is not outdated is a still a effective tool in seduction specially when you are doing physical escalations:

for example in the dance floor as i am dancing i tell the girl "look at me in the eyes when you are dancing and come close look in my eyes be sensual, i am not going to kiss you" "now go back" this causes compliance and false trust, after we do this 3 times we are making out...

Polarity has nothing to do with push pull (i read models a million times, and he is using the term correctly) polarity is pretty much telling it like it is:

for example typical dude when the girl says, "how this dress looks" default answer "oh it looks nice"

Polarity would be saying "it does not look good on you something is off, is to big on the back makes your butt look fluffy" this is more like polarity...

another example girl: "you want coke" me; " I don't mind if you do, i am not the judgmental wag finger type, but i can't i get random tested in my profession"

 

[DonGately]

WIA nailed it. Push-pull is still a very important technique. Whether it's the teasing/disqualifying part of pickup, or in the longer-term frame. I think it's important esp for beginners, who are typically pull-pull-pull when they start chatting and then wonder why the chick bounces after an hour that they thought they were 'doing well' but didn't realize they weren't getting anywhere because she wasn't investing.

Models really helped my game.

 

[KJ Francis]

I like you but we'd never get along, we're too similar,"

Tested as opener followup!

Me: oh you are definitely a [my astrological sign]

Her: lol why do you say that?

Me: we're too similar and would never get along (maybe better to reverse, end on high note)

Then she went into moon signs or some shit.

Edit: on bumble. Her opener was hey

 

[Tony D]

I've never read models. Funny but I used to talk to Mark sometimes on Facebook and then he referenced that book, I told him I'd never read it. He goes, "Oh, I thought you had." Lol. He had a great blog when it was called "Practical Pickup." I interviewed him once ten years ago. https://www.absoluteability.com/interviews/an-interview-with-mark-manson/

 

[Skills]

I've never read models. Funny but I used to talk to Mark sometimes on Facebook and then he referenced that book, I told him I'd never read it. He goes, "Oh, I thought you had." Lol. He had a great blog when it was called "Practical Pickup." I interviewed him once ten years ago. https://www.absoluteability.com/interviews/an-interview-with-mark-manson/

Dude is a multimillionaire now