Lover Value vs. Provider Value (Something New Guys Often Miss)

[Chase]

Just a quick point of clarification on these two types of value:

• Provider Value comes down to things that make you seem dependable, reliable, respectable, predictable, cooperative, high status, and safe.
  
  
• Lover Value comes down to things that make you seem exciting, sexual, risky, unpredictable, flirtatious, challenging, and desired by other women.

There are some points where these two types of value oppose (predictability vs. unpredictability; reliability vs. riskiness).

However, in most of their points they are not mutually exclusive.

Many inexperienced men prioritize Provide Value. They do so because a.) they've been told to do so by women and society, and b.) provider value is also REWARDED everywhere else in their lives: school, work, anything structured or hierarchical.

These same men seek to tamp down or eliminate their Lover Value. Again, they do so because a.) they've been told women dislike such boorish men, and b.) lover value is also PUNISHED everywhere else in their lives: school, work, anything structured or hierarchical.

Becoming attractive to women as a lover means being able to divorce your romantic persona from the way you are elsewhere in life, where you still need to act like the consummate responsible, dependable, predictable, upstanding citizen. You can still keep aspects of that in your romantic persona, and in fact will benefit from a lot of it -- the best seducers have a range of provider value backing up their lover value. But the lover value needs to be at the fore.

Structured hierarchies are created to direct and manage the less directed emotions of individual human beings. The women you want to date and sleep with are not structured hierarchies; they are individual human beings. Just like men think lovers are cooler than providers, because men are individual human beings, women think lovers are sexier and more desirable than providers, because women are individual human beings.

The general rule of thumb:

1. In a structured hierarchy, put provider value at the fore
   
   
2. Person-to-person, outside structured hierarchical situations, lover value must be at the fore

What about drinks with your boss one-on-one? Well, your boss is an individual human, but he is also a representative of the structured hierarchy you are a part of. So, you can show a bit more of those 'lover value' qualities -- but not too much. Just enough to show your boss you can let loose a little out of the office, but not so much he starts to doubt your dependability/reliability.

How about a hot girl unconnected to school, work, or any other hierarchy you're in, who you just want to bed? In her case, lover value should be at the fore, though you can keep provider value in the background to help shore it up. If you run into her friends, she may want to showcase some of your more respectable qualities. If she drops into logical mode, she may want to be able to reassure herself that "There's potential for a future here." But lover value must be the priority.

Where lover and provider value conflict, pick the one more important for the situation you're in. If it is anything that touches a hierarchy you're a part of in any way, pick the provider quality (predictable, reliable, cooperative) over the lover quality. If it has nothing to do with any hierarchy you're in or wish to be in, pick the lover quality (unpredictable, risky, challenging) over the provider one.

This isn't an absolute rule. There's a point where a woman is hooked enough where it's often to your benefit to show a bit more provider characteristics. e.g., if it's deeper into the seduction, and she is very into you, but you are still acting super challenging and risky, for many girls that will be too much. Tone it down a bit and be a bit more cooperative and safer (that doesn't mean do a complete 180 though! Still challenge her some and be a bit risky... just ease it up a little). She's already sold on you as a lover; you don't need to keep selling her so hard.

When you first meet her though, and until she is really sold, Lover Value needs to be at the forefront. Otherwise you will just be another normal/regular guy, just like all the guys she is around constantly in the structured hierarchies she's a part of, and just like with them, she "won't feel a spark" with you.

tl;dr: you need both types of value with women -- but Lover Value is what gets the juices flowing.

If the juices aren't flowing in the girls you meet, ask yourself how many of those lover value characteristics you're displaying, vs. how many provider value ones you are.

Chase

 

[Lantern]

Great post, sir.

I had a sort of random thought after reading this, but maybe it has merit?

If one is in a long-term relationship, it would be good to provide your GF or wife with both values. I was thinking how and when you would switch between those. Now, obviously, the best thing is to be attentive to both yourself and her, and figure out when she needs more provider vibes from you, and when more lover vibes. But the idea that came to mind was that you try to sync it with her ovulation, as I'm sure many here are familiar with studies which say that women in ovulation find more what you're calling here lover value attractive, while out of ovulation, more provider value. If you're in a LTR you will kind of have a feeling for your girls cycle, so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out when to switch mode a bit, although one shouldn't start adding her days to the calendar, that's a bit too dorky.

 

[Winston]

Great post Chase, this helps clarify things for me.

Can we say that provider value doesn't create attraction, whereas lover value do create attraction? (In this case the V in the VAC model would mean "Lover Value", and not only "Value".)
The only counterexample I can think of (ie. the only provider quality that seems able to create attraction) is being high status in a given social situation.

 

[Chase]

@Lantern,

Yes, you will have to have both kinds of value in a long-term relationship.

I don't know about switching display styles based on times of month or anything else... I suppose you could do that.

Most guys should be safe having a single integrated persona that incorporates all the important points:

7 Rules on How to Be the Alpha Provider

Last week, I tackled the common pickup / manosphere belief that the ‘alpha provider’ is a myth: both why men in these communities often think this way, as well as why men who actually are alpha providers don’t usually find their ways into such communities to bother providing themselves as...

www.girlschase.com

@Winston,

Hmm... well, depends what sort of definition you're using for 'attraction', I suppose.

Just from the sense of 'attract' as in 'draw someone towards you', provider value definitely attracts. It is also attractive romantically... although it's a slower build attraction.

Women tend to be slowly won over by providers. They can be sexually attracted by provider displays. But they will typically not be rapidly attracted by them, usually.

So if we wanted to refine your thought here, we could say 'lover value creates rapid attraction, while provider value tends to attract more slowly'.

Chase

 

[HoofHearted]

Thanks man this is good content

I want to praise it, raise it up and also bury that god awful virgin thread.