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FR  Mall Outing to Instant Drinks Date

Grand Pooba

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,458
{ } indicates thoughts and reflections to myself
< > indicates non-verbal things happening.

On Sunday I decided to do a field outing to practice approaches. I picked the mall on Sunday before it closed. I initially wanted to go for three hours, from 3pm till closing at 6, but my own internal fear prevented me from doing this. I finally sucked it up at 4:30pm and forced myself to go out till closing. I got there at 4:45, and told myself I wouldn’t leave till 6.

It turned out to be a great decision. While I didn’t hit my target of 8 women on this outing and only made it to 6, I did the best approach I’ve ever done to date.
In the mall, as I’m walking around with good fundamentals and a slick smile, I see this cute woman walking towards me but far in the distance. As I give her eye contact and hold the smile, she returns the same gaze, with sharp eye contact and a warm smile, right as she’s walking into a store to my right and to her left. Well, how about that.

So I walk in the store and she’s right there looking at some clothes. I approach to her left side, pre-open her by grazing her left upper arm with the back of my hand, and she looks my way before I look at her and meet her eyes.

Something about this girl is different, because she’s giving me the SAME type of strong eye contact that I’m giving her, and she’s very calm and confident as well. I spoke to her slowly and with a deep voice and a smile:
Me: “I was just walking by, and I HAD to tell you that you have the most beautiful hair I’ve seen all day! What’s your name?”
Her: “I’m [Vermont], what’s your name?”
Me: “I’m [Ozz], nice to meet you. So what brings you to the mall today?”

We talk briefly about what she’s doing here, which is getting her eyes done but looking around before her appointment. I ask her if she lives around here (she does) and where she’s originally from (Florida). When she asks me if I live here, I say that I also grew up in the area and I’m visiting my dad who lives close by. She asks me what I’m doing here at the mall, and I tell her that I’m going to go look at a few clothes for work [even though I don’t work at the moment, gotta give SOME story…], and then I proceed to ask her what she’s doing later.

Me: “Do you have any other plans this evening?”
Her: “I have work tomorrow, but I’m free this evening.”
Me: “Well, [Vermont], I think you’re really cute and I’d like to get to know you better. So how about we go grab a coffee or something when you finish up your appointment? What do you think about that?”
Her: “Yeah, I think I can do that, but I think Starbucks closes early today. Maybe we can go somewhere else. How about Brio, have you heard of that?” <YES!!! She is cooperating AND giving input! A very good start.>

Needless to say I had not heard about any of the places she suggested, but I had her put in her number and gave her mine as well, and we agreed to grabbing drinks after she finishes up her appointment. After some more small chatting about where to go because we can’t decide:
Me: “Ok, tell you what, I’m going to go to Banana Republic now, but how about you text me when you finish up and you’re ready to go, and I’ll meet you?”
Her: “That sounds great. I have to tell you though, I only have a little time because I have work tomorrow and there are things I have to get ready.”
Me: “Well…we’re all busy right? See you soon! ” {In retrospect, this was a great opportunity to throw in a sexual frame: “Yeah, we wouldn’t want to get into too much trouble tonight now would we ;-)?...” }

{Another note to self: if she’s already restricting her available time, perhaps it is more appropriate to move faster and set up something that isn’t slow and as time consuming as drinks?}

Side note: One of the girls working at this store saw this going down, and she made sure to throw out “Have a nice evening!” before I left while looking at me with a warmer than normal smile. Pretty sure I could have pulled her number too if I had tried a little later.

I went around and made some more approaches, but 6pm came around and I went to my car (and pulled yet another number on the walk there, woohoo!). Since I live close by I was heading home and texted her en route:
Me 1810: “Hi [Vermont], nice meeting you at the mall. Let me know when you’re on the way to Brio or Sbux and I’ll meet you there. –[Ozz]”
Her 1814: “Nice to meet you as well. I should arrive at Brio in 15 mins.”
Me 1817: “Sounds good” <And just like that I started heading over to this place before even getting home>
This insta-date meant that I would be putting everything I’ve learned and experienced thus far to the test. Between walking the mall and driving and meeting her here, I had no time to look at notes or last minute GC posts or the forum or anything! I have to do all this in my head, I thought. I guess that’s actually a good way to do it.
I’m waiting outside, and she walks up from the left about ten minutes after I get there.
Her: “Hi! Great to see you again.” <Hug>
Me: “Great to see you too! So what sorts of trouble have you gotten yourself into today?”
Her: “Haha, I never get myself into trouble!”
Me: “Mmhmm, a likely story indeed.” <Going through a revolving door now>
Her: “Did you get what you were looking for at the mall?”
Me: “Yeah, I just bought a pair of socks I liked. You went to get your eyes done, right? <Walking beside her towards the bar and looking right at her as she’s looking at me>
Her: “Yeah, I did.”
Me: “They look great!” {Probably need a better frame here i.e. “Glad you got those done especially for me ;-)” Thoughts?}
Me: “I’m glad you showed me this place, I didn’t even know about it.”

When we get there to order drinks, I tell her I'm taking a break and order water instead while she orders wine. I think I just found a unique loophole to avoid paying for a girl. But this is basically how our conversation starts, about drinks.

We move to sit, we’re sitting next to each other at the bar. Throughout this entire interaction her body language was extremely positive. I am not sure if this was intentional or not, because as I would soon learn she practices body language for her profession. One of the things I noticed different about this girl is that she was doing a lot of the same things to me as I was doing to her. Just like they teach you to have excellent fundamentals on GirlsChase, this woman was throwing back the SAME fundamentals right back at me! Maintaining eye contact, using good posture, keeping still and matching my body language and vocal tone. It was actually very fascinating to see and observe. Over the interaction I upped the level of my touching, doing it a few times on her legs, on her arms when making a point, and quite frequently held her hand like hers is a C cup and I’m dipping my fingers into it. I tried the hand interlock and while she didn’t pull away instantly, she didn’t close either. Very neutral here.

When we started talking about what I do, instead of asking me she actually offered to guess! Cool!!
Her: “You’re well dressed with very clean lines….you approached me and introduced yourself in the mall confidently, so you must be good with people….You’re very analytical and your thinking is organized…” <She kept going on, and with a few hints from me she actually guessed correctly. I am starting to think now that I am dealing with a very different breed of woman here!>

What we talked about:
- Her travel: she loves to travel. It’s maybe her favorite hobby. She’s been all over Europe and South America. We connected over this quite well, as I’ve been to Peru and so has she, and we shared quite a bit of conversation over experiencing this culture and everything it has to offer. We talked quite a bit about travel all across the world and where we aspire to be. This seemed to be a good hook.
- Her aspirations: high aspirations to achieve in life, including going to grad school and eventually working for either the UN or the World Bank to help third world countries and issues in those.
- In finance, deals with clients and is extremely busy.
- She’s from Florida, but has lived in Vermont and recently moved to this area a year ago. I asked her a lot about this, and she consequently also asked me a lot about where I've lived and what I do.
- Really enjoys adventure and trying out new experiences.
- She’s spiritually sounds and really believes in a greater purpose and making a bigger difference in the world. We connected quite a bit over this and how we believe in this same thing.
- TV shows: likes drama and suspense. I introduce her to the shows Breaking Bad and The Wire.
- She likes living the fast life, but also takes time for family and such.
- Has a very large family, she is one of 9, but they all get along and she’s the most grounded yet “causes trouble secretly”
- I had her laughing at times, but not so much that it took over the date.

Somewhere in there she comments very subtly that I’m asking interview questions. Good, this tells me that this is something I need to fix. We joke about that, but it’s still a major problem in the way I am running dates and at least it has been identified.

Tool's test:
Me: “You know, you’re a very interesting girl…”
Her: “Oh?”
Me: “I mean, you’re very smart, you’re funny and charming, but I feel that there’s something beneath the surface that you’re afraid to show. But you shouldn’t be…”
Her: …<We’re looking at each other and she has a deep gaze into me but says nothing and is speechless. I switch topics>

Pull attempt about an hour and a half in during a pause:
Me: “Well, I’m having a great time and I feel like the night’s too early to end, don’t you?”
Her: “I’m having a great time as well, but unfortunately I think my night is about to end. It’s getting late, I have work early tomorrow and a lot of things I need to take care of at home before I go to sleep.” <It’s only ~8:00pm>
Me: “Well, I have a pretty early morning myself, but why don’t we let the night continue for a little longer?” {In the future, just say “why don’t we let the night continue?” and ask her if she’s having a good time}
Her: “Unfortunately I can’t, but I would like to see you again when I’m more free.”
<Maybe one more back and forth on this but I forget exactly what she said>
Me: “Oh, so what’s your schedule looking like?”

I started to make the same mistake I made in my last date and start scheduling the next date on this one. I kept asking about her schedule and she clearly wasn’t sure about it yet, and we were looking at our phones trying to figure something out. She is on a business trip to NY Friday but may be free either Friday or Saturday. I realized I was making a huge mistake with this about halfway through and basically stopped her and said, “you know what, actually we don’t have to do this right now. We can figure out a day that works later.” I still think I ruined the intrigue in a way because I started doing this next date planning shit, but I am also glad I caught it in the process, rather than being blind to it. (Thank you T Vaunswa).

We’re talking about reconnecting next weekend and how we’re having a fairly good connection, and I threw this in there too (meant to be a sexual frame):
Me: “Well, maybe next time we meet we’ll *** have an even deeper connection…” <*** = where I deepened and really slowed down my voice with heavy eye contact while holding her hand such that hers is like a cup I am dipping my fingers in>
<short pause and blank deep stare from her>…<I think she didn’t know how to react, so I shifted topics instantly>
Me: “So tell me more about your experience in South America.” {I use the word “so” too much, fix this}

Our conversation continues, but it still feels too much like an interview.

Me: “So, what do you think of me?”
Her: “Hmm…well, I think you’re really interesting and you’re fun to talk to. You have a pretty good handle on things you want in life and in your heart, and only certain kinds of bold, confident men have the attitude to approach a stranger at the mall. But I also sense there’s something else beneath the surface that I’m not seeing.” <This is basically what I said earlier>

There was one moment in conversation where she blinked her eyes in very rapid succession while looking at me as I’m talking. What does this mean?

Over time I suggested we head out. She asked for the bill. The bill came, I offered to get it but she declined and paid for herself. I said we should get out of here.
Me: “You barely finished your wine!”
Her: “Yeah, I don’t drink a whole lot myself.”

I walked her out by guiding her by the small of her back. When we parted ways, it was very simple, and in some ways she led:
Her: “Are you parked in the garage?”
Me: “No, I’m parked that way” <We’re now facing each other, our lower bodies are connected below the waist, I’m holding her by the waist gently while she’s holding me with her hands at my elbows. Our upper bodies and faces are about ten inches apart, and I could see some hesitation on her face that she didn’t want to be kissed. I was keeping my head very still and looking deep in her eyes, while she was slightly nervous and made one miniscule motion of her head backwards. It’s hard to describe this but it seemed she was very nervous about being kissed and didn’t want that>
Me: “So I’ll see you next time…” <moved instead to kiss her on the cheek, which she accepted immediately> “Have a good night!”
Her: “You too!” <disconnect and we walk off in opposite directions>

----

My thoughts:
- Excellent approach and setting up the insta-date.
- I sensed a good rapport in our body language.
- Good response so far from touching and bodily contact, except for kissing and pushing intimacy (deferred)
- Not sure if she is legitimately busy or if this is just an excuse. I pushed for going home that night but also stopped when it didn’t seem feasible, and didn’t try again in case it would look desperate. Either way I didn’t move fast enough and deferred this.
- Weak pull attempt.
- I didn’t make enough sexual and chase frames?
- I conducted this date too much like an interview, which she also pointed out. I think this is good for learning because clearly it’s a major sticking point and something I need to start experimenting with to do differently. In other words, I’ve found a core problem in the way I run dates.
- I should have used a compliance test and tried her wine.
- Maybe I am running my dates too slow, and to break the sticking points and my plateau I have to move faster and try something riskier.
 

The Tool

Tribal Elder
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Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
556
Excellent job my man. Nothing really to critique because you pointed out the sticking points and faults yourself. Excellent man
 

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
1,525
Ozz:

This is a tremendous read. Looks like you pushed yourself very hard and got rewarded for doing so, and I'm sure you should be very pleased with your performance.

I particularly like the way you phrased the date proposal:
Me: “Well, [Vermont], I think you’re really cute and I’d like to get to know you better. So how about we go grab a coffee or something when you finish up your appointment? What do you think about that?”
That was very cool.

Two questions for you:

1. At two separate points in the narrative you say you switched subjects, thus breaking the tension. Why did you do that? From the way you describe it, it seems like she was hoping you'd escalate.

2. Are you sure she didn't want to be kissed? She might have been worried that you wouldn't follow through and kiss her... or am I reading it wrong?

Way to go!
-Marty
 

Grand Pooba

Tribal Elder
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Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,458
Thanks for your comments!

Marty, nice to hear from you man!

Marty said:
Looks like you pushed yourself very hard and got rewarded for doing so, and I'm sure you should be very pleased with your performance.

Definitely the better of the dates I've had recently. More importantly, though, this one really helped me identify things I really need to push on and fix.

Marty said:
I particularly like the way you phrased the date proposal:

Thanks. It has helped me to first figure out what their schedule is. If they say outright or suggest that they're open, then this style is something I've started pushing for. I think PrettyDecent actually framed this idea a while back in a journal entry of mine, so credit goes to him.

Marty said:
Two questions for you:

1. At two separate points in the narrative you say you switched subjects, thus breaking the tension. Why did you do that? From the way you describe it, it seems like she was hoping you'd escalate.

2. Are you sure she didn't want to be kissed? She might have been worried that you wouldn't follow through and kiss her... or am I reading it wrong?

1. The truth to this is that I haven't experienced this type of feedback from a girl as yet, where she's looking at me doe-eyed and a bit speechless. Now that you bring it up and I am looking back and thinking of it, maybe she WAS ready?? I switched subjects because it felt kind of awkward, but not in a bad, "she's scared" kind of way. Feedback on this from you or anyone would be really helpful. Should I escalate in this type of situation in the future, or move her to a seduction location immediately?

2. I am not sure. It didn't feel right for some reason, just because her upper body was nowhere close to me even though her lower body was connected, and she was looking right at me but when I made a very subtle motion towards her face she also very subtly moved back in that same moment. I also didn't want to kiss her because I already felt like we weren't going home together based on my failed pull earlier. On the flip side, maybe I'm just convincing myself I did the right thing when I really should have pushed ONE last time to try and go home with her.
 

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
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Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
1,525
Ozz said:
If they say outright or suggest that they're open, then this style is something I've started pushing for. I think PrettyDecent actually framed this idea a while back in a journal entry of mine, so credit goes to him.
Yeah I remember this too. I should have acknowledged him.
 

ocantu1987

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
401
Dude! ozz you are the man bro! I liked everything you did, I think she might give you a second date. Let us know if she does:)

question: when you touched her, did you only do it at a high point? You said you touched her leg? how did you do that?
 

Grand Pooba

Tribal Elder
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Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,458
ocantu1987 said:
Dude! ozz you are the man bro! I liked everything you did, I think she might give you a second date. Let us know if she does:)

Thanks! I hope so, I'll be sure to post about it if it happens.

ocantu1987 said:
question: when you touched her, did you only do it at a high point? You said you touched her leg? how did you do that?

I touched her arm and her leg at high points, when I was making a point about something, giving feedback, or asking a personal question. I only touched her leg once at the area above the knee.

It was easy to touch her because she was half-facing me like this:
https://girlsguideto-production.s3....cx-couple-sitting-at-bar-0510-de-14856260.jpg

Her right leg was crossed over her left, and she was on my left side.
 

Grand Pooba

Tribal Elder
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Messages
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Re: FR++: Mall Outing to Instant Drinks Date

This could be an interesting post. This is the second date with this girl “Vermont” that I met at the mall and took on an instant date with a few weeks ago. For various reasons, namely her being busy and me being out of town as we live in different cities, I haven’t gotten in touch with her to set a second meeting even though she seemed highly receptive on the first one. This past Tuesday I gave her a ring, and we spent a few minutes talking on the phone before I got to the point: what’s her schedule, and after she said when she’s free, let’s do a dinner date on Saturday evening. I didn’t give her any details about what we were doing, just that she should keep her schedule free that evening, without specifying a time either. Then I let it be, and I didn’t get in touch with her until this morning.

I’d love to hear comments if you have any. My preliminary assessment is that I’ve been boyfriend zoned. How do I deal with this?

-----

This morning at around 1124, I gave her a quick three minute phone call. I wanted to check if she’s still on for tonight; she was driving so I made it really quick. I basically told her we should get dinner, at 6pm, and I gave her a choice of two places. She said she’d be fine with either because she hasn’t been to them; I told her that we can head there together as I’m happy to give her a ride, which she declined but said she’d call back if things change. Then I told her I’d text her the addresses of the venues and we’d figure it out, as she had lots of errands to run before hand.

Texting:
Me 1136: <Addresses of two restaurants>
Her 1138: Thank you. Which location to meet at 6pm?
Me 1150: Do you like exotic tasty and spicy Asian food, or cozy Victorian American type cuisine? Or either? <I bombed a bit here and realized immediately in retrospect that I threw the ball in her court and conveyed myself as an indecisive and less dominant man>
Her 1210: I like either depending on the day. The day is calling…[restaurant]. Could keep us warm for the soon coming snowstorm
Me 1227: I agree, let’s do [restaurant], 6:15. Take your time throwing on something sexy ;-)
Her 1327: Glad you agree. Had you not, then we would have to wait until September 23rd 2014. =( That’s the next day I perhaps may feel like spicy Thai. =) thanks for the extra time. Hope the 15 gives you time to put your sexy on as well. =) <I deduced this was a joke referring to my indecisiveness>
Me 1440: Haha, and who knows what kinds of adventures you’d get into before that day. See you tonight. <Should have maybe just said “Haha, guess you’ll see later tonight.”>
Her 1440: =) see you tonight.

I show up at 1810 to this restaurant; for whatever reason she was a little bit late and showed up around 1835 or so as she got lost finding the place, and walks right past me waiting outside and to the front desk. As she’s asking about reservations I approach smoothly from behind with some kino and greet her with a sideways hug and a kiss on the cheek. I then lead her by the small of her back to the table and we sit and chat a bit.

One thing I did on this outing was attempt to actively portray myself as a sexual man, and I did so by utilizing every bullet point from this article: The 9 Secrets to Being a Sexual Man, <https://www.girlschase.com/content/9-secrets-being-sexual-man>. I’ll attempt to break down how the conversation flowed through our 1h15m dinner session:

Started by discussing very general things like what we’ve been doing since we last saw each other; thanksgiving and Christmas plans etc.
I brought up her texts earlier and commended her for saving me from my indecision. Then I told her that I like that she goes after what she wants, it’s refreshing to be around a woman who knows what she likes and takes it. (“Female Aggressor”)
Talking more about family and then the menu, and I steer the conversation by mentioning how we have so many choices and we can’t choose, and that it’s a replica of how some technology works, which then switches over to online dating and how people sometimes have too many choices. We ask each other if we’ve done that before, and I said no and she also said no. She said she likes everything being done in person, and I agreed with her, that while it works well for some people I think there’s more being built in terms of a connection in person.
I shared a relationship story about a girl that I went on a lunch date with and who became so infatuated with me that she wouldn’t stop texting me and trying to get me out again for the next two months, and that scared me a bit. <Maybe this set the wrong frame?>
I told her that society tries to press all these rules on people as to how things are supposed to work in life, including relationships being a certain way, but the truth is that society doesn’t need to have any input in anything two people do with each other, because it doesn’t matter and people should be able to enjoy each other’s company without judgment. (”It’s a secret” and “screw society”)
I mentioned that I’m glad we live in the time we do today, because there’s more opportunity to find what you’re looking for and that society as a whole is more open minded, and I value that. (“Open your mind”) <I didn’t spend enough time on this on, as I would find out she still felt uncomfortable with first date sex> She’s agreeing with almost everything I’m saying.
We talked about how it’s like being single, and mentioned that some people feel the need to just jump from relationship to relationship, but that they’re misled into believing that’s what will really help them. I told her I appreciate the freedom that being single brings and how it’s nice to not have to worry about others as much; she agreed with me (“Love being single”). Then we discussed how some relationships fail for that reason, because people like putting labels on things that aren’t meant to be labeled because it’s far too soon. She also agreed here, and mentioned one of hers failed for that very reason. (“Love being single”).
Then we mentioned facebook and how everyone likes to post intimate details of their lives, but I said (and she agreed) that details are meant to be private (“it’s a secret”).
At times when she’d give me a long seductive gaze, I’d ask her if she’s trying to seduce me right now. She’d protest but I’d keep the conversation going on something else. At one point I also said “You know, if you keep doing that, I won’t be able to control myself”. (“It wasn’t me”)


Facts about her that I learned:
- Longest relationship ever was thirteen years (I shared mine as well, which is a lowly 1.5 years). When she shared this fact my expression was blank and kind of distracted, like it was taking a while to process. She then remarked kind of surprisingly, “wow, most people are really shocked when they hear that,” and I told her that I think it’s something that makes her pretty unique, and that I don’t judge people for their histories.
- She can count all her relationships/partners on one hand.
- Her worst dating experience was with a guy who took her to a drafthouse movie theatre and kept drinking through the movie, nonstop, even though he had to drive her to her car later.

I mentioned this game I’ve been playing with girls more and more (incidentally taught to me by a girl on a date). It gives me an excuse to hold their hands (she actually said that…”is this an excuse to hold my hand?” and I didn’t answer it): I tell them that I’m going to hold their hand as I close my eyes, and they should pick an object in the room and then say they’re ready. Then I have to guess the object in three tries. I’ve been getting pretty good at this, so I guessed hers, and then had her try me as well. She failed, they usually fail. But anyway, now we’ve gotten comfortable holding hands.

Sometime in the course of the night I brought up this tv show she watches, and that she still needs to show me an episode. She agreed, so I suggested that we go grab hot chocolate and watch it at her place. I used some kind of yes ladder, about how she’s having a good time, and how the night’s too young to end, and . She said it’s too soon to go back there, and then there was a momentary pause and sexual tension as we look at each other intensely. It seems like going to her place was going to be out of the question. Yet, I still stuck with the plan to go to starbucks.

Starbucks/Sitting outside (8:00-8:30):

We go to a starbucks nearby to grab coffee and hot chocolate. I led her out by putting my arm around her and holding it there dominantly; she reciprocated a few minutes later and we’re both walking with hands around each other’s waists. At starbucks I order and pay for both of us, but say the next one’s on her and she agrees. We sit at a table, her to my left as I face perpendicular to her looking over in the direction to her left; she’s sitting facing me directly and her legs are crossed with the dominant leg pointing directly at me. This means I am the object of her interest, I picked up on this. I was also able to touch her legs as I’m making points, they were almost like arm rests. We spent maybe ten minutes talking about random stuff; then I say we should go walk around outside, but also go by my car to drop off our extra food. I brought up going to her place to watch a show again, and she said “I don’t feel comfortable with that right now…” and I said I respect it, and yet a few minutes later she mentioned that she’s down to go watch the show (implying my place). We were sitting outside by an ice skating rink and she’s trying to guess my birthday, as I’m guessing hers. The sexual tension is quite high, our faces are in each other practically and I could have kissed her at any time. I mention that I think she’s trying to seduce me into kissing her, and she practically agreed, but I told her “but not here, we wouldn’t want to make the kids jealous.” As I’m currently staying with my dad, I had to call him and see where he was, but lucky for me he was out till at least 10pm. So I basically told her let’s go, and she agreed.

Back at my place (~8:30 until 10pm):

I have her follow me home in her car, it’s all about ten minutes from the restaurant and starbucks. I’m leading her by her back as we’re going to the door, and I have her take off her shoes when she gets in. We take off all our winter clothes, and she’s actually wearing plenty of clothing. Maybe three layers beneath her jacket, all very sexy and put together. I go to the kitchen to grab us some waters, and when I come back and give it to her I take the opportunity to kiss her. The tension had been building all night, I could tell she had wanted to kiss me sooner. So initially, in this kissing, it was quite passionate and she seemed enthralled to finally do it, zero resistance. I had to put down our waters to better embrace; we soon moved to the couch and I put on a tv show, her sitting on the couch while I’m working the tv. Then upon getting back to the couch, she starts watching the show, and I watched for maybe two minutes before, with my arm around her and my other hand touching the side of her face, went for more kissing. This time, at first she gets really into it, but in the moment she starts shutting me out and starts gently pushing me back and whispering, “slow.” I ignored this and continued to dance around her face and went for ears and neck instead, before going back to her lips. As I’m doing this I’m also passionately squeezing her hand with mine, and she’s very much reciprocating, and there’s a passion that she’s showing with how she’s grabbing me. We’re kind of playing with tension in our hands at this point, and I’m trying to visualize in my head everything I wanted to do to her, communicating that with my eyes between breaks in kissing. I can already tell that she’s really, really passionate in bed and probably a lot of fun. But what was going on then wasn’t fun, she was diffusing all the fire because she wanted to go slow.

Anyway, this sort of thing went on for a bit, where she started protesting as to whether I’m focused at all in the show or something else. I told her I don’t know, I think I’m pretty focused. I moved her a bit to start giving her a back massage as we’re now watching the show, and she seemed to really enjoy that. Yet still, when I go for kissing it’s very hard to move things forward. I can feel in her body that she wants it, but she’s also holding back mentally, and also verbalizes it: “[ozzo], I like going slow…” and I don’t really slow down. Over time she also mentions “some things are worth waiting for,” as well as when I mentioned that I think she’s passionate, she said “yes, very passionate” in kind of a cocky way. She said something else cocky that I can’t remember about how awesome she is.

Eventually it got to the point where we’re both standing up, presumably to “dance,” but this is where the tension got really cool. There was a moment where we just standing still and looking at each other intensely in our eyes without saying anything, while our hands were moving over each other’s bodies and communicating all sorts of things, like we’re dancing with our hands. She later brought this up that she’s never held eye contact like that with anyone before, and that I have really intense eyes. At one point I mentioned “someone really messed you up before, huh…” as I try to make sense of all her resistance; she agreed. I took a bunch of opportunities to dance in a fun playful way, interspersed with some more seductive moves like the eye contact and really passionate kissing, and making it as far as grabbing her ass. However, it seemed that whenever I took things farther than she wanted, despite subtle pushing, she also would start making remarks about wanting to leave. And she won soon enough. We danced a bit, interspersed with intense kissing.

At one point she had me share frames about what I like about her, and I did the same to her. I didn’t protest doing it or anything, but I conveyed what things I liked about her. She came up with some unexpected ones for me, like being discreet and private.

I had her stay for maybe an hour past when she first said she wanted to leave. Eventually she did, and while the kissing got more and more intense over time, no clothes were coming off. Her outfit was, as I was soon realizing, exceedingly complex, and I couldn’t even take off a thin black sweater thing without first taking off an intricate set of bracelets; she had on two or three clothing items beneath that one. She mentioned that she wanted to hang out with me tomorrow (hmm, when has this happened before and how did that end? With nothing!!), and that she’ll want to be in touch with me after lunch time. (The weather today is snow and freezing rain, a good day for staying in). If I call her to hang out, wouldn’t I be chasing? Anyway, in the moment we’re kissing and I told her that yes, I’d like to hang out tomorrow, but that she should keep it simple because that’s what I like. She then responded that she’s a pretty complex girl, and I didn’t say anything back. She also mentioned us going on a ski trip with her friends, I didn’t respond to that.

Before she left, and after she already had her shoes on, there was a really intense moment of passionate kissing and grabbing. Not sure what to make of this.

As she’s putting on her coat, I ask her if she’d like me to walk her to her car. And her reply was “do you even have to ask?” with a small smirk. Uh oh, this is really starting to turn into some trouble, me thinks. We walk out and I kiss her goodbye and she leaves. It’s only 10pm and I felt disappointed and a bit let down.

Thoughts:
I’m really torn. She’s quite attractive, one of the more attractive I’ve been on a date with recently, and I can tell she’s going to be great in bed based on her body language and passion I can feel. We also have a great connection. On the flip side, her complexity and the LMR, even though I could feel her wanting it, seems to be moving things decidedly in the wrong direction of what I want. I can’t say it’s her fault, I probably just didn’t do a good enough job of priming her for sex, or she’s battling an internal frame.

Looking back at it I also feel like I didn’t really use the principles of being a sexual man as effectively as I could, or as many sexual frames and innuendos. I didn’t convey “nymph in her,” “open your mind,” and “love being single” well enough. Maybe that’s what caused LMR. Thoughts?
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
1,525
Hey Ozzo:

First off, this sounds like an awesome gal.

It's just my opinion, but I wouldn't worry too much about this:

ozzo said:
she’s also holding back mentally, and also verbalizes it: “[ozzo], I like going slow…” and I don’t really slow down. Over time she also mentions “some things are worth waiting for,”
My guess is that she was playing to what she thought were your expectations. If she likes you so much she doesn't want to risk messing up, that would seem a good thing.

ozzo said:
She can count all her relationships/partners on one hand.
Another obvious play to the "good girl" image which may (or more likely, may not) be true.

ozzo said:
At one point I mentioned “someone really messed you up before, huh…” as I try to make sense of all her resistance; she agreed.
Nice cold-read that shows a lot of empathy and understanding of her depth. Good one. Essentially contradicts the "good girl" frame too.

ozzo said:
Her outfit was, as I was soon realizing, exceedingly complex
I wonder whether this was intentional!? ;)

Anyway, she sounds wonderful and I'm happy for you that you had such a good time :)
-Marty
 

fsc_old

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Oct 19, 2013
Messages
68
First of all, I really love your report. In addition to having great content, it's very organized, detailed, analytic, and easy to read. It inspires me both as a fellow field/lay reporter and seducer. Thank you for the read.

Regarding the interview-y feel:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you spent about 2 hours on the first date. Under your "What we talked about" list, I see 9 topics, so on average that's about 13 minutes per topic. I feel like 13 minutes is a decent amount of time spent on a topic (I currently have a bad sense of time and day because I've been up studying for finals), so maybe she was just trying to bust your balls? I personally have trouble with having interview-y and platonic conversations as well, and I think it's a result of not knowing what to say, or how to carry a conversation. So instead of deep diving and transitioning into a related topic based off something she said while deep diving, I frequently end up jumping to different topics and asking a lot of questions. So my newbie advice would be to try to deep dive on every good topic as deep as possible while transitioning away before it gets stale. Also try throwing yourself in there from time to time as well by qualifying, complimenting, or by telling stories (the interactive ones where you're not the only one talking from the beginning of the story to its end). Sometimes I feel like I get the girl to talk too much, which may be another factor in making her feel like the interaction is an interview rather than two people conversing with each other.

I would also like to hear some input from others about how to avoid having the date feel too interview-y.

Regarding the second date:
I liked the conversation topics this time around, but I'm not sure the lunch date story with another girl was necessary.

I'm thinking she has categorized you into the boyfriend slot. “Some things are worth waiting for” is EXACTLY what my previous girlfriend told me when I tried to escalate to sex, and it took me 3-4 months to finally penetrate. We've been dry humping until then (to which she actually orgasmed as much as 3 times), and I was also a one-girl-at-a-time man back then.
“someone really messed you up before, huh…” as I try to make sense of all her resistance; she agreed.
That's pretty much what happened with my previous girlfriend too. She is VERY emotional and passionate, and she didn't take her previous break up very well--she was actually hospitalized for a bit because she couldn't/wouldn't eat. So I'm guessing Vermont may be the one-man-at-a-time kind of a girl, and she's being very careful who she chooses as her next mate because she's been wounded before. My previous girlfriend can count her past relationships with one hand as well. She was also pretty skilled in socialization--eye contact, posture, carrying on and starting conversations, etc.

HOLY SHIT BRO ARE YOU DATING MY EX?!

Nah, I'm kidding. My ex and I go to the same school and she's been in LA her whole life.

That's all I can offer at this point with my limited experiences in seduction/life. Good luck with Vermont and take care.
 

Grand Pooba

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,458
All, thanks for your comments. This was a learning experience and also, from another thread, gave me some ideas to try on getting past LMR next time. I think I'm moving to slow in that regard.

Marty said:
First off, this sounds like an awesome gal.

It's just my opinion, but I wouldn't worry too much about this:

ozzo wrote:
she’s also holding back mentally, and also verbalizes it: “[ozzo], I like going slow…” and I don’t really slow down. Over time she also mentions “some things are worth waiting for,”

My guess is that she was playing to what she thought were your expectations. If she likes you so much she doesn't want to risk messing up, that would seem a good thing.

Yeah, I did get the impression that she likes me; however, it's good to note that maybe I did set that as my expectation based on the story I had told her. I'll have to be far more careful about that frame in the future, and should instead set it as a frame where you really like someone and things didn't work out because it was so slow.

We don't even live in the same city, so we'll see if this actually turns into something. Shame on me if it didn't.

Marty said:
Another obvious play to the "good girl" image which may (or more likely, may not) be true.

ozzo wrote:
At one point I mentioned “someone really messed you up before, huh…” as I try to make sense of all her resistance; she agreed.

Nice cold-read that shows a lot of empathy and understanding of her depth. Good one. Essentially contradicts the "good girl" frame too.

Yeah, probably isn't true.

Marty said:
ozzo wrote:
Her outfit was, as I was soon realizing, exceedingly complex

I wonder whether this was intentional!? ;)

Yeah, I think it was. Only a real man can take off something that complex, or it's to make her feel secure that nothing's going to happen.



fsc said:
First of all, I really love your report. In addition to having great content, it's very organized, detailed, analytic, and easy to read. It inspires me both as a fellow field/lay reporter and seducer. Thank you for the read.

Thanks for your compliments. I am still a newbie also, but love bouncing ideas off others.

fsc said:
Regarding the interview-y feel:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you spent about 2 hours on the first date. Under your "What we talked about" list, I see 9 topics, so on average that's about 13 minutes per topic. I feel like 13 minutes is a decent amount of time spent on a topic (I currently have a bad sense of time and day because I've been up studying for finals), so maybe she was just trying to bust your balls? I personally have trouble with having interview-y and platonic conversations as well, and I think it's a result of not knowing what to say, or how to carry a conversation. So instead of deep diving and transitioning into a related topic based off something she said while deep diving, I frequently end up jumping to different topics and asking a lot of questions. So my newbie advice would be to try to deep dive on every good topic as deep as possible while transitioning away before it gets stale. Also try throwing yourself in there from time to time as well by qualifying, complimenting, or by telling stories (the interactive ones where you're not the only one talking from the beginning of the story to its end). Sometimes I feel like I get the girl to talk too much, which may be another factor in making her feel like the interaction is an interview rather than two people conversing with each other.

I'm starting to better understand now how this works; back then as I was getting reacquainted with the dating scene it was much harder to not keep the date interview-y, as we're talking about work and passions, etc; and I continually tried to keep focus on her and asked pretty boring questions. I'm starting to now get a better grasp of leading someone through a conversation--talking about emotions, relationships, travels, and relating without saying much about yourself unless she asks. The key seems to be conveying yourself as a romantic and sexual man, as if to anticipate their feelings. It's a work in progress, but it's going.

fsc said:
I liked the conversation topics this time around, but I'm not sure the lunch date story with another girl was necessary.

Yeah, I think that story hurt me a few hours later when she was at my home and didn't want to move fast.

fsc said:
I'm thinking she has categorized you into the boyfriend slot. “Some things are worth waiting for” is EXACTLY what my previous girlfriend told me when I tried to escalate to sex, and it took me 3-4 months to finally penetrate. We've been dry humping until then (to which she actually orgasmed as much as 3 times), and I was also a one-girl-at-a-time man back then.

I've waited 4 months in the past, and I think I'm done with that from now on. It's too long. The girl I was with was an exception though: she'd never had a boyfriend and was a virgin, and I was seeing other girls already in the first 2 months we were going on dates, before it turned into a relationship type thing.

fsc said:
My previous girlfriend can count her past relationships with one hand as well. She was also pretty skilled in socialization--eye contact, posture, carrying on and starting conversations, etc.

I think this girl is older than me and values those skills for her work and such. Either way, seems quite mature.
 
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