Managing new, non-monogamous, fast-moving relationship with girl that lives a few hours away

[anon123]

This is an update on the same girl I asked about here https://www.skilledseducer.com/thre...-i-move-and-what-are-the-red-flags-here.28166

Thank you again @Francis @TomInHo @BIGGUS DICKUS: PUSSY MAN @West_Indian_Archie @Skills and others who responded. It was really helpful in getting me to where I am.

I wanted to provide an update, share some concerns and a few thoughts I have. If any of you guys have any advice it would be much appreciated.

In brief, she is 100% hooked on me, loving how things are going (as I am), and as Skills pointed out it's time to move to relationship management. There are four potential issues that are jumping out to me:

1) The 'status' of the relationship
2) Non-monogamy
3) Levels of investment (and dominance)
4) Pacing of the relationship

Below are my thoughts and concerns on each.

1) Status of relationship

• She’s ‘not looking for a serious/long-term relationship’. I’m not necessarily looking for that either, but I would be very happy for things to move in that direction if we lived in the same city. Despite her saying this, she acts as if we are already in a serious relationship. She is extremely sweet to me all the damn time, telling me things she appreciates about me and how into me she is, how much she misses me, how she can’t wait to do ABC with me, etc. Both of us have made it very clear we are happy with how this is going, and want it to continue and see how it develops. I don't want to disregard what she is saying, but it very much seems to me she is not quite sure what she wants (more on this below under 'non-monogamy')
• She has numerous times asked if I would be willing to live in her town. I would not want to live there long-term, but if we were to enter into a more serious relationship, I would consider spending maybe half my time max there, which for me would be enough for us to have a great relationship. I would only want to do this if we were monogamous though (or closer to it, casual hookups would be fine with me, but nothing more). I make most of my money online or from businesses in other towns that I only need to check up on once a month or two. I have many friends in her town. It would be easy for me to spend 1-3 weeks there at a time, even potentially beneficial for my financial situation.
• She has said she would love to move to my town when her contract ends in Spring/Summer, but it may be difficult for her to get a job here. I could probably help introduce her to people that I am sure would love to employ her, but that would obviously put some pressure on the relationship so we need to manage this well if she is serious about this. Obviously this will be her choice and we will try to not link it to her "moving here for me" so to speak.

2) Non-monogamy

• Early on both of us said we would not be able to do monogamy, mainly citing the fact that we live in different towns. I am fine with non-monogamy in general, but I definitely do not like if she is dating other guys that she is potentially really into - obviously if it was just casual sex, hookups or one night stands that is much less of an issue for me (not an issue at all really). But if I move towards being her "boyfriend" (the direction we are clearly heading in), I want to be her main man. I do not want there being someone else she is investing a great deal in. At the moment, it does not seem there is a risk of this but it is something to keep in mind, because of the following.
• She is basically going through a phase of life where she is really enjoying dating around, and sleeping with multiple guys. She has had a tough past relationship-wise. When young she dated one or two guys that were borderline abusive, but she seems to mostly get stuck with just deadbeats somehow. She has said she tends to end up with guys who "just don't put the effort in for me". Of course I am basing this on what she says so maybe it is not the entire truth. But at any rate she says that in the past six months she has finally got to a place where she is very happy with herself, happy with her job, and for the first time ever is enjoying the single life and dating around, and it is making her feel more confident and happy with herself, so she would like to continue that lifestyle. Despite this she has made very clear how into me is and that she wants to continue and hopes that she can both pursue something meaningful with me while also actively dating and meeting new people here and there.
• She says there were three ‘deep/meaningful’ relationships she was involved in over the past six months or so. One ended abruptly a few months before we met (he just wasn't meeting her needs she said). She has ended one fairly amicably soon-after she and I met (she says I made her realise she and him just weren't that compatible). One is ongoing and started just before we met, but she says she is not quite sure yet if it is going to continue but it is clear to me that she hopes it will. It seems she is more into this guy for intellectual reasons than emotional, and it sounds to me like he is looking for a casual friends with benefits situation with her. I won't lie, this one bothers me a bit, but not a tremendous deal. Beyond these guys, she is casually dating and sleeping with 3-4 other guys like once every few weeks (or less) with each. I do not give a shit about that happening. My thinking on this is I cannot control the other guys, nor her feelings for them. I could make an ultimatum that she stops, although it way too soon for that and that has a risk of backfiring. Ultimately my thinking is all I can do is continue to see her with some frequency and try to be the most attractive male possible for her. I need to focus on what I can control, which is 1) myself; and 2) how I lead or steer the relationship over time.
• She said friends of hers have called her out saying her expectations for what she can do with multiple partners is unrealistic (i.e. have one guy - or even two or three guys - that adore her and treat her as a girlfriend, while simultaneously casually dating and sleeping with several others). She says she feels she absolutely does have the capacity to manage those relationships without hurting anyone and wants to try it, though this is something that is new for her and she admits that she is not certain how it will play out. I am not totally opposed to her doing this to some extent for some period of time, but if it goes on for say 3+ months, and especially if she finds another guy that she treats like a “boyfriend” in the way that she treats me, that much would absolutely bother me. I have told her this, and it was really disappointing to her because she said she does not want what we have to end. We both agree that we will be able to make it work one way or another, admitting that each may have to make some concessions.

3) Levels of investment

• I think this is what I am most worried about, as it is a key thing I have control over that I can either fuck up or play right. In brief, I have more money than she does, make more than she does, have way more geographical flexibility than she does and work far less hours than she does. This all means it is much easier for me to visit her than for her to visit me. I worry that spending so much time in her city means she is not investing enough, and opens the door to her being more dominant (something even she clearly does not want), or being the "One Up" and me the "One Down" in the power dynamic. On the other hand, she loves how strongly I 'pursue' her and 'just go for what I want' with her. It's hard to know how to continue to do this in a way that she finds attractive, but without "over-investing" and leading to her "under-investing". I guess I need to think of other ways to build compliance, and get her to invest in ways that she is able outside of visiting me (or spending too much money). Or am I overthinking this? She is constantly investing a lot of time with me (basically wanting to spend the majority of her free time messaging/calling me when we are apart). Is that enough for now?
• Neither of us wants to do long distance. We don’t really consider this long distance given that we live relatively close to each other, but it is not possible to see each other more than once or twice per month. We both would like to be seeing each other more, but I am hesitant for above mentioned reasons.
• One thing on this that makes me feel quite uneasy is that she really likes to be spoiled. Basically, she likes when a guy will spend money on her, and it seems like the more the better. She has dated guys before where she was only casually invested emotionally and sexually (way less than with me anyway), but they paid for everything and she loved this. She has mentioned that she would like to have another relationship like this. This is absolutely not something I am interested in (and not something I want her doing with others if we enter into a relationship together). I am fine with helping a girl out financially to some degree, but only if we are serious (and monogamous or near monogamous).

4) Pacing

• We are moving really fucking fast. After having sex and once entering the dating phase, I tend to move really slow emotionally and try to manage the pacing of a relationship to keep girls hooked, and let them slowly build up their desire for me, miss me and fantasize about me when we have periods of not seeing each other, etc. But with her, we have both dived in deep from the get go. It feels unnatural for me, but she says she is loving it and so I am just going for it along with her, and it’s actually been extremely enjoyable. We have a lot of shared values, shared goals for life, and the sex is incredible (and only getting better). Again maybe I am overthinking this and it is just because I have not moved so fast before, but I wonder if slowing things down (basically messaging/calling each other less) would be good. Of course there are times when I am just too busy to talk to her, but generally my businesses are going well and there are 4-5 days a week when she wants to call and I actually have time so I just go ahead and chat to her for 20-30 minutes, sometimes an hour or two. Maybe I am overthinking this and it is fine that I am doing this, but I wonder if fabricating a bit more distance so we talk less would help.
• All of the above obviously links to how strongly to pursue her, and how frequently (and for how long) to visit her town.

In summary, this is a fucking very high value girl who knows she is high value. She is extremely dominant (which I love, I need a girl to be a challenge for me to be attracted to them for more than just sex) and specifically said she likes me because of how manly I am and how she feels I am able to take charge, dominate her and essentially go for/take what I want with her. I am just wondering how to keep her chasing, keep her investing, while also being strong and taking the lead in guiding the relationship toward something both of us will be happy with. It seems very achievable, but I have a few question marks and hesitations based on some of the above.

Sorry this is so long, but your guys' responses were so helpful last time I wanted to share an update and if you have any more advice it would be really appreciated.

Thanks brothers,
Anon

 

[topcat]

I ran something like this for about 3/4 years, 3 of which were long distance.

I think you are too eager for something serious with her, these concerns need to be hers not yours. Your perspective should be "this thing we have going's days are numbered, let's see how long it lasts. I'm not overly invested in this thing, if it is to become more it'll be on her, if i even want that", she needs to invest to close the gap. The one thing you should provide is quality time ONCE she reaches out for it and only after sufficient investment from her.

My suspicion, based on my own experience, has been that to make this work, how you start is of the utmost importance. Investment must be minimal on your part, but with enough facetime to see eachother 1 - 4 times a month. The long distance part can only happen after perhaps 6 months of this, and she needs to be the one holding on out of fear of her losing you and you entertaining it out of amusement/because you find her amusing.

If you run an open long distance relationship and feel like things are balanced OR you are actively working with here to make things work, YOU ARE THE ONE DOWN. Make no mistake about that.

Also this open talk you have about her other lovers is concerning. Not the fact that you know (intelligence is always good imo) but the fact that you've verbally signed off on these other lovers, with her and she doesn't seem to care about sharing these intricacies.
At least in my dynamics, my open partners try to hide these things from me as they are vying for me to take them seriously. They're more likely to paint themselves as not entertaining other men, which i disregard anyway as we are open and they hve that freedom. My only barometer for the health of frame in such a dynamic is her level of investment, which i demand a high amount of.

The fact that she isn't doing this makes me question the strength of your frame in this dynamic.

Ultimately my thinking is all I can do is continue to see her with some frequency and try to be the most attractive male possible for her.

No, she needs to be bridging the gap. In a relationship like this, the man who invests the least but gets the most wins. The man that autoinvests loses.
Have value (in the form of being non-judgmental and forming a strong connection), and give it as a reward for her over-investing. Do not accept balanced investment or weak investment from her, or you will become a lower priority than her other dudes.

I have told her this, and it was really disappointing to her because she said she does not want what we have to end.

You're verbalizing too much. Treating her like a wifey when she is just a hoe you like who should be vying for a wifey spot. Instead You're trying to secure a future hubby spot. She's the one-up, you just haven't seen it yet.

I think this is what I am most worried about, as it is a key thing I have control over that I can either fuck up or play right.

Yes investment is everything. She needs to be overinvesting to hedge the fact that this is long distnace AND open. Both are bad deals for men, but can be ideal if you are avoidant and accept that the chick is already lost.

Build a harem locally, enjoy while the overinvestment lasts. Ghost, when she slows the contact - it means she's pusruing another prospect.

In summary, this is a fucking very high value girl who knows she is high value. She is extremely dominant (which I love, I need a girl to be a challenge for me to be attracted to them for more than just sex) and specifically said she likes me because of how manly I am and how she feels I am able to take charge, dominate her and essentially go for/take what I want with her.

No. She is just a hoe bro. Don't get it twisted, these are my favourite kinds of girls, even long term. But they take a special type of management, and seeing her as "high value" is the wrong way to do it.. her value is relative to her investment, it starts out very low. She's a hoe, but one you like, and that counts for something.

She said friends of hers have called her out saying her expectations for what she can do with multiple partners is unrealistic (i.e. have one guy - or even two or three guys - that adore her and treat her as a girlfriend, while simultaneously casually dating and sleeping with several others). She says she feels she absolutely does have the capacity to manage those relationships without hurting anyone and wants to try it, though this is something that is new for her and she admits that she is not certain how it will play out. I am not totally opposed to her doing this to some extent for some period of time, but if it goes on for say 3+ months, and especially if she finds another guy that she treats like a “boyfriend” in the way that she treats me, that much would absolutely bother me. I have told her this, and it was really disappointing to her because she said she does not want what we have to end. We both agree that we will be able to make it work one way or another, admitting that each may have to make some concessions.

LOL that's what she thinks. In reality that's not how it works. She'll juggle until one of the boys proves a clear winner (highest value, lowest investment with just enough attainability and lots of competitive pressure), then she'll be trying to lock him down while neglecting all her other prospects. You are this guy by getting her to over invest, nd appearing not to really care as much.

Honestly the game of somebody who can make this work is more akin to pimp game than standard MLTR or rotation game, extremely skewed investment levels being the differentiating factor.

TC

 

[orkie123]

This situation sounds familiar, and a small warning - it sounds like she has game. That is, she will give you quality time when together and make you feel like a king, and then do her best to invest just as much as is needed to make you chase her at other times. This is what you should be doing in reverse. There is no guarantee she isn't doing the same with other guys no matter how implausible it may seem.

I got burned in the past for equating incredible time together, promises, and her knowing exactly when to throw a carrot just as I was starting to move on as investment. In reality, I was the one overinvesting by pushing for us to be in the same location even though she was the one visiting me. It was a good lesson but one that took me way too long for me to learn.

Do not underestimate how badly long-distance can hurt your self-esteem with someone you like if it lasts a while then crashes. The problem with these situations is that each time you see each other after a longer period, it feels like starting fresh with someone you know is going to be amazing and that can get you addicted. "Absence makes the heart grow fonder" and all that.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

My Short Answer:

I'll just be brutal from a place of tough love. It's not looking good mate and if you aren't careful you'll get heart broken.

If you just read 1 thing it should be this article: how to make a girl want a serious relationship

My biggest concern is that in your whole block of text, you didn't mention anything about seeing other girls.

If you're not seeing other girls please fix that asap

Long version:

She acts as if we are already in a serious relationship.

This is good game 101. You should match this but as TC said, she should be fretting about where you stand, want you as a BF and making investment moves to get closer together. The way I personally do this is act like their BF when with girls then be radio silent in between.

You aren't doing this because you talk in the phone in-between visits so there's nothing for her to chase.

She is extremely sweet to me all the damn time, telling me things she appreciates about me and how into me she is, how much she misses me, how she can’t wait to do ABC with me, etc.

Girls like this are dangerous...Ask me how I know - she's either disgustingly charming or the love bombing type... Look at her actions not words.

she is not quite sure what she wants

This is why it's very important to give her a good time, let her chase and *potentially* decide she wants you.

he has had a tough past relationship-wise. When young she dated one or two guys that were borderline abusive,

This is where my alarm bells started ringing. Heard/seen this tons of times, this girls like a challenge & spikes in emotion to stay interested otherwise she gets bored. She's also saying this to raise a damsel in distress savior's complex in you & looks like it's working

This is why:

tends to end up with guys who "just don't put the effort in for me"

Because guys who invest more than her bore her. But I bet she's super charming & great in bed so most guys lose their heads.

Despite this she has made very clear how into me is and that she wants to continue and hopes that she can both pursue something meaningful with me while also actively dating and meeting new people here and there.

Keep a level head. Give her great sex and conversation but most importantly don't expect anything to come of it. That's how you "get" a girl like that and ironically the way you "keep" her is by allowing her to be free.

In brief, I have more money than she does, make more than she does, have way more geographical flexibility than she does and work far less hours than she does.

All of this is irrelevant if your actions match a one-down *shrugs*

On the other hand, she loves how strongly I 'pursue' her and 'just go for what I want' with her.

Of course she loves it. She gets free attention from a cool guy... Can't you see what she's doing?

Encouraging you to act in a way that benefits her I.E travel to visit her, give her fun experiences & invest more than you usually would as per your own admission here:

But with her, we have both dived in deep from the get go. It feels unnatural for me

. I guess I need to think of other ways to build compliance, and get her to invest in ways that she is able outside of visiting me (or spending too much money).

Correct. With some girls talking about things you like is enough and they'll auto-invest e.g. I like bars like xyz, then she'll book a table to a bar like that.

For girls like your situation (I'm currently dating one) they don't tend to auto-invest so you have to edge it along by actively requesting in a casual way e.g. help me cook while she's at yours or give her a great experience, like arrange an outing she'll like, then pull back, act normal/like before then she'll have to organize something to get that same level of attention from you again. In my example I booked a cool rooftop bar then went bad to just casual sex in my flat and we didn't go out together again until she booked a bar.

One thing on this that makes me feel quite uneasy is that she really likes to be spoiled. Basically, she likes when a guy will spend money on her, and it seems like the more the better. She has dated guys before where she was only casually invested emotionally and sexually (way less than with me anyway), but they paid for everything and she loved this. She has mentioned that she would like to have another relationship like this.

This is where I switched off and went from skeptical to personally a girl like this I would keep in FB territory and wouldn't make my GF. To be honest though, I wouldn't see this as anything more than a shit-test and act in a way you like to act with girls. If that's 50/50 do 50/50.

Reading between the lines with this girl, unless you're comfortable with an unconventional relationship where you're the guy she comes to for dick and fun and you're cool with her getting free stuff from other guys/occasionally sleeping with them while you get the perks of her having quasi-sugar daddies who's money go to your dinners with her that you pay 0 for I'd keep it casual.

Reading your post though, I don't think that would be your thing.

Think this girl will be a wild ride for you but you'll learn a lot from it. Again though if you don't do anything read this article.

Ultimately my thinking is all I can do is continue to see her with some frequency and try to be the most attractive male possible for her.

This is a terrible mindset that will fail

Girls like this NEED challenge. You should be the one fucking multiple girls and she should be thinking how can I be the most attractive girl for him *face palm*

Bro, you have multiple businesses making money online (don't be surprised if I DM you lol as I'm in that area) on a forum like this so clearly self-improvement focused and socially saavy or at the very least rapidly approving.

This is just a girl who happens to suck dick well and you think she's "high-value"???

Get the fuck out of here.

Re-set, See Other Girls - and live your life. It's her job to chase the relationship, not yours x

All the best man.

DWW

PS.

said she likes me because of how manly I am and how she feels I am able to take charge, dominate her and essentially go for/take what I want with her.

Girls like this will stroke your ego and make you feel amazing even while they cuck you. Literally have seen it happen to a guy on this forum who was a competent seducer. Ignore her words and look at her actions. Phone calls/texts means nothing - look at how much she comes to visit, how she acts when she's with you and how she invests to move things forward. Everything else is noise.

PPS

It's good she's telling you things. Don't act jealous and encourage it. Means you get accureate information with the kind of person you're dealing with to make an informed decision. Remember it's in a girls best interest to move into relationships quickly and a man's best interest to do its slowly


PPPS

Say all of this from a place of love and personal experience. For context I'm seeing a girl who lives 4 hours a way by train. She comes to my city often (I've never been to her city and we met on tinder 2 years ago when she was visiting). Last time she came was this Friday with a bottle of rose and chicken for her to cook. That's personally the vibe I like with my relationships and it's available for every guy who's willing to work to become the kind of guy who gets it but it means acting in unorthodox ways.

 

[TomInHo]

More red flags here than in a Soviet parade

This woman has mad game, How do I know? Because I do the same things to my lovers

1. Start with "Honesty"
This allows me to move with freedom to do as I please. And if they find evidence of me with another girl it ain't my fault cause hey I was honest


2. Gaslighting to get you to invest.
She is telling you how she loves it that you take control and make time for her because you're so manly. LOLOLOL

You ain't manly at all and falling into her frame. I do the same exact thing with my lovers. When they do nice things for me and chase I always make sure to reward them so they feel appreciated

“Oh baby, you make the best meals. Makes me feel so special when you cook”

“I love how you read my mind and contact me just before I do. Makes me feel like we’re in sync and have a deep connection”

Pure BS…. Just to keep ‘em chasing

3. Giving you hope to keep chasing the relationship
Notice how she keeps telling you how you're so amazing and she loves spending time with you. Yet makes you do all the work. In fact you're so addicted to her pussy you are considering moving to another city just for her

That is just plain retarded

Please believe, she has no plans of dropping her other lovers for you and has clearly stated she loves it when men worship and dote all over her. When she frames things as "meaningful" it's not what you think

Meaningful to her is be my compliant beta bitch while I do whatever I want with whomever I want


IN SUMMARY
To be blunt, you are clearly the ONE DOWN in this situation. And it's not wise to emotionally invest in someone like this because she seems very unstable at the moment

Let her do all the work for getting closer. You need to focus on just fucking the shit out of her and nothing more, and if something more serious happens she needs to be the one to beg for it

Anyways... I know, you're not going to listen and keep investing anyways because I've seen so many guys like you in this situation. Their ego gets too invested and the want to prove to themselves they can "TAME" this siren and make her his

But if you keep her just for fun and date other other women, eventually you'll meet a girl that is just as hot with less headache and a better candidate for an emotionally healthy LTR

On the other hand if you love the feeling of chasing a woman while getting cucked please go ahead and pursue something serious with her. It's your life and if you want more drama and confusion she is the perfect candidate for a long term partner

Have fun

 

[Alpha13SC]

Regarding the One-Down - One-Up bla bla discussion, even if it's technically correct, for me rn is a bit of overthinking.

It s easy. You're thinking like an One-Down, at the beginning she might be One-Down too, until the relationship is kind of settled.

What I see being a problem is the fact that this relationship is not run as you want. And your terms are not respected. And it's a big thing that you should take into account what do you actually want from this relationship to happen, what you're ok with, what you're not and put the food down if things goes south. But in this moment you have to figure what you want and be ok to have her just as a FB if you don't want certain things. There will be other girls, maybe better than her and your emotions right now give you some illusions, giving you a hard time. Just be strong and don't accept it, or if you accept, state your expectations more clear.

Her abundance mentality is making her to request so many things.

Alpha13SC

 

[POB]

Seems to me that she's already won the frame of this relationship.
And once you lose it, it's almost impossible get it back.
She is happily riding the cock carousel, while waving at your limp dick and blue balls. Not cool!
I would pull away, focus on other chicks, and see where it leads her behavior.

 

[gameboy]

Sounds like a sugar baby to me. Also, she is definitely love bombing you. She might be a narcissist, that's what they do... Please be careful. And make sure to have at least as many other girls as she has other guys.

If she ditches you tomorrow, will you be fine? Because she definitely will be with the 3 or 4 other guys she is fucking.

 

[topcat]

Sounds like a sugar baby to me. Also, she is definitely love bombing you. She might be a narcissist, that's what they do... Please be careful. And make sure to have at least as many other girls as she has other guys.

If she ditches you tomorrow, will you be fine? Because she definitely will be with the 3 or 4 other guys she is fucking.

Ay nutn wrong with narcissists they just need a certain type of handling. Key to handling narcissists is realising that "what you seek to control, controls you" - as a man of value, a narcissistic woman will seek to control you, stay uncontrollable and just out of reach never seeking to control you, and she's "yours"..

 

[TomInHo]

Sounds like a sugar baby to me. Also, she is definitely love bombing you. She might be a narcissist, that's what they do...

I don't think she's a narcissist or anything crazy. And even though she is running game on him, I think she is going off pure instinct and isn't 100% aware of her actions

Sounds more like she just got out of a serious relationship and doesn't want to attach to anyone too soon... aka emotionally unavailable

But the problem is that attitude can be very seductive and motivates us men to chase hard. . . I mean OP said it himself here

This is a fucking very high value girl who knows she is high value. She is extremely dominant (which I love, I need a girl to be a challenge for me to be attracted to them for more than just sex) and specifically said she likes me because of how manly I am and how she feels I am able to take charge, dominate her and essentially go for/take what I want with her.

People fall in love when they invest. And her being a challenge is making OP invest a ton emotionally as he tries to figure out this puzzle. Hence why he considers her so high value

But this is also great news because it means she is doing it to the other guys she is dating too. Meaning they will probably fuck it up at some point so they are not even competition

OP just needs to relax, and let her do all the heavy lifting when it comes to making the relationship "real and meaningful", because it ain't that serious

Please be careful. And make sure to have at least as many other girls as she has other guys.

Honestly, I don't think he should date other women to compete with her. That's dumb

Instead he should do it to fulfill his needs. Because clearly from his actions he wants a serious relationship, but this woman is not in the mindset for that yet and there's a chance she may never be

So rather than wait around hoping she changes her mind or *gasp* he tries to change her mind... It's more efficient to date others and then pick the best one for him out of abundance

Could be her, could be someone else... doesn't matter really as long as his needs are getting met

 

[anon123]

Hi all, firstly you are fucking legends. Taking all this time to share your replies is really appreciated and extremely helpful. These past days I have read "how to make a girl want a serious relationship", along with numerous other articles on the site and listened to two of the GC podcasts.

Let me first share some information in general, and then I will reply to you all individually to try and keep this response as clear as possible. You guys shared so many gems, so I am sorry this is going to be really long. If you want to jump straight to my replies to what you each wrote, maybe just scroll down to your names.

Additional info in general:

To start with, I think my OP gave a different impression of where things are at than the reality, so I want to add a bit more information that probably paints a more accurate picture. I think due to the fact that my OP focused entirely on potential concerns that I have, I painted a much more negative picture of what is going on (and where my mind is at, and how I am feeling). Things are going really well in my mind with her. I surely have less experience with women than most of you, but more experience than some of the younger guys here, and I can say I am very confident that she is heavily invested in a relationship with me (what form that relationship takes is of course yet to be seen, but she is definitely "in").

This girl is very much hooked and dying for more (although I do agree with what many of you are saying in terms of me over-investing, and moving toward being the One Down). I am not necessarily looking for a long-term relationship with her, and definitely not (for now anyway) anything monogamous. Although there is not a huge distance between us, it does take some time and effort for either of us to visit the other, so we are seeing each other less frequently than some of you suggested (but definitely talking too much). I travel a lot, am seeing other women (have slept with two since I met her), and will be reuniting with at least three, if not more, former/long-term FWBs over the coming 4-6 weeks or so (some of whom I may not sleep with, but probably will). I listened to the Caleb Jones (Black Dragon) episode on the GC podcast, and it's clear we are in FWB territory, and I am interested in continuing to sleep with this girl and would very much like to give us the chance to see if moving toward an MLTR (as he defines it) would work for us, which would take us a few months more of being FWB to find out, but if not then it's not the end of the world for me at all.

Where things are at currently, I do not see any reason why things with this girl will end completely unless I decide that is what I want. Despite the fact that she is sleeping with other men, I have very good reason to believe she is already more emotionally invested in me than any of them (unless she is a sociopath that has me completely duped, but this is highly doubtful). Hypothetically if things were to suddenly end tomorrow, I would be disappointed for sure, but I doubt it would take too long for me to get over that disappointment.

I will absolutely admit that of the girls that are currently available to me, she has moved to probably top of the list of those that I am most excited about (recency bias I guess), and one which I think has the most potential to move toward MLTR. This does not mean I am dying for that to happen though. One or both of us may have reason not to move things further than FWBs, but I am pretty damn convinced that she is interested in developing something further (she has said this numerous times), and I would at least like to continue seeing her with some frequency until I feel more certain of which way makes sense for it to go. If we simply remain FWBs though, that is fine. If it ends altogether, so be it, but again there is no reason to suspect it is going to any time soon.

Realistically, we will be seeing each other every two to three weeks maximum moving forward. We have spent probably a total of like 14 days in one another’s town since we met (checking the date) on 17th of last month, with her visiting me twice and me visiting her three times (her visits being much longer than mine). We did not spend all of those 14 days together of course (we have other friends in each other's towns), but the majority of them. I realize now that was still way too much time together so early. The last time we saw each other was last weekend where we went on a weekend holiday together just outside her town, and the next visit is scheduled two weeks from now where she will be visiting me. After that, at end of December I will be traveling internationally for 4-5 weeks. So while we had that initial period of constantly traveling to see each other, the frequency has reduced and will be reducing further.

Despite all of the above positives, having read your responses numerous times, plus several articles on the site, I am now all too aware I have made some big fuckups in transitioning from the point of "converting" her into a more ideal version of our current FWB situation. Although this is the case, none of this feels like something I can't adjust moving forward and I am highly confident if I take your guys' advice to heart and manage things well, it should not be difficult to steer this to where I want it to be (and if not, end it). One big takeaway from Caleb Jones' podcast is that we completely skipped the 'implicit (/honeymoon)' phase straight to explicit, though in my defence this was initiated by her very early on and I guess I screwed up in not gently dodging having those conversations, but in the moment I actually found it very cool that she wanted to be so blunt and open about things so early on.

One thing I will say. All of the reading I have been doing is making a lot of this early excitement and attraction toward her fade, which I think is a good thing to help me shift my mindset a bit and hopefully approach this in a better way.

Now onto individual responses to you guys:

@TomInHo

Agree she is definitely not a narcissist. She is extremely caring and kind toward others, to a fault almost. You are absolutely correct she is not totally aware of her actions. She is diving in to what feels right and (same as myself) we are figuring this out as we go.

To some extent, she does come across in her behaviour as 'the type' that is rebounding from one serious relationship into another, but this is not the case. Her last relationship that was even semi-serious ended last year, and she has been enjoying flings, leading to more actively casually dating for the past few months (as I said in OP, with a few ‘meaningful’ FWB type relationships in there).

I would not describe her as emotionally unavailable. If anything, she is too far in the other direction (I can kind of understand others’ saying she is Love Bombing, though I do not think this is the case at all). She wears her heart on her sleeve and is very romantic and sweet toward me, telling me reasons why she loves spending time with me, having sex with me, speaking with me, etc. To be honest, this normally puts me off big time when girls do this, especially too early... Given the way we started (very open, authentic communication about what we do and don't want) though, I am making an exception and just letting myself enjoy it for now to see where it leads.

I definitely agree with what you are saying about aspects of her personality making me invest more emotionally. I need to get a fucking grip of this.

Thanks for what you said about focusing on fulfilling my needs. This is what I will try to do, namely pulling back from so much communication with her and putting my energy into other girls.

@gameboy

I do not think it fits the description of Love Bombing as she is not looking to control me or get me to change my behaviour in any way. She is excited to see me and would like me to be talking to her/visiting more, but I have numerous times told her I cannot do “X” that she wants, and she is always understanding of that (if sometimes a bit disappointed). We have not made any plans or talked about the future in a way that is unrealistic. While she is extremely affectionate and excited about me, she is far from appearing manipulative in any way.

@POB

Yeah this may be. As said above will pull back on the communication and not be seeing her for a while, and focus on others.

@Alpha13SC

Yeah this makes sense. Honestly I feel like both of us have been acting like the One Up and the One Down in different types of situations. I have been pretty stern/strong with her in several instances, and she complies. Frankly I feel it is too early for a clear One Up and One Down to have emerged between us. We talk a lot, have spent a fair bit of time together considering it’s maybe six weeks since we met, but it is still very new and - while we have become really close in certain ways - there has not been sufficient time for a clear power dynamic to emerge yet.

Agree with all the rest that you said. I haven’t laid out any clear terms that haven’t been respected. So far I am happy enough with how things are going, but anticipating ways in which the relationship would not ‘run how I want’ in the future. I guess I am trying not to think too much about ‘what I actually want from this relationship to happen’, because I want to just let it play out organically given it is so early. I realise this is likely a mistake. Should I be keeping these things implicit, or already stating a few general things around my expectations and ways I do/don’t want it to be (and showing her I’m ready to walk if it’s not that way)? For me this sounds like a bad idea, I’d rather keep things casual, continue to see each other for a few more months, and then will feel more ready to have a conversation around those things.

@DoWhatWorks

This is so helpful, thank you. That article you recommended was obviously excellent and as mentioned above made me realise a bunch of early mistakes I have been making. First step from here is backing way off on the phone conversations…

Wonder what you mean about her getting bored without a challenge, and losing interest in guys who invest more than her (when her words are the exact opposite and when she’s explained past guys she dated just weren’t really present or there for her as much as she had wanted). I might be misunderstanding what you are writing, but this sounds a bit counterintuitive.

Love that line about keeping her by allowing her to be free.

Agree with all the rest you said. Will do my best to put it into action. One question, given that it is LDR(/FWB), and that we will be seeing each other less frequently, do I build compliance solely when we are face to face? Or are there ways to (if messaging less frequently) try to build this during those in between times?

@orkie123

She definitely has game. Though she said she hates girls and guys who act this way. She is all about genuine, open, honest communication, which has been really refreshing and I think allowed us to become closer (but yes, I worry about it reducing both our attractiveness to one another, and leading to me being the One Down). But yeah, she knows how to flirt and play a guy, which I am fucking loving.

Yeah I need to really figure out what ‘investment’ from her looks like given this unique scenario we are in, and try to pull back and let her do the investing.

@topcat

Thanks for what you said about my perspective. It will be hard to shift it to that straight away, but I am already moving closer to that and will try to distract myself her (even forget about her completely) for periods to focus on work, enjoying myself and other girls to hopefully move me more in that direction.

We don’t talk in details about other lovers, but we are aware that we are both doing it. This was established early on (when she pretty much made sure we totally skipped the ‘implicit’ stage). As I said she is all about openness, which both of us like. She definitely does what you are describing about your partners in playing down what she is doing with others, something I joke with her about. It is lighthearted and neither of us is excessively bothered by it. I would have the potential to be if she got serious with others (which I told her, big mistake I know). I will dial the chat about others back. If she brings something up, I’ll address it, otherwise, leave her guessing.

As mentioned above, I wonder how to increase her level of investment, or if the answer is simply to decrease mine. When you say not to accept balanced or weak investment, do I call her out on this? Or just walk away?

 

[KJ Francis]

Hey man! I haven't read through yet and look forward to delving into what the other guys wrote. Like I told you before, I don't have the experience to give tested relationship management advice... But it does seem you are heavily mentally invested in this girl.

So while it is good to prepare yourself and be actively self improving to manage the current situation, I think the prerequisite for this situation is being more emotionally able to walk away than she is. Unless you are still actively bedding new women, I would treat it like the end is near and read a quick summary on Wikipedia about Buddhism and reducing suffering by accepting impermanence. Just treat it as inevitably done.

If she is still craving other cock, I would keep it in my head that she is visiting Skills tomorrow and Chase the next day... And she would treat them just as special as she does you if they gave her the time you do, but she sees you as more malleable.

It might not be true, but it can help you feel like a fool and snap out of it. Ever since I caught a glimpse of a text this girl I was casually seeing sent her ex who had cheated on her... I do not forget there is a world outside our bed. This woman had told me that she loved me not long prior. Maybe she believed it, but this girl was a mess who drank too much and I was too young to realize it. I was always planning on moving away, but thought it was way more special than it actually was.

If the girl has a messy relationship history (you are part of that mess btw) I would keep her as fuck buddy only. You should know a girl's potential ceiling for certain roles in your life very, very quickly.

 

[topcat]

@Francis has given you some great advice. I’d heed it if i were you.

she pretty much made sure we totally skipped the ‘implicit’ stage). As I said she is all about openness, which both of us like.

this sums up enough of the frame dynamics for me. when you boil everything down to it’s most elementary you get “she did this, WE both like it” which translates in pure Framenese as “she set a frame, I accepted it”.
I see nowhere in your text where you are setting favourable frames (to you) and she is accepting them.

I do see a lot of WE talk though. You’re accepting what a woman says as indicators of strength of frame. They aren’t really, all a woman’s words are indicators of how she may be feeling in the moment, and even then sometimes not. Whether good or bad, a woman’s words are no indicator of the strength of your relationship… her INVESTMENT vs yours is.

Your levels of investment in this relationship are too evenly matched, dare i say you are more invested in her ever so slightly, which long distance can and likely will skew in her favour with time as she courts options nearer her and they begin to seem more convenient and familiar. Worse if she feels the pull of an attractive prospect investing in her less. How will you counter this pull after you’ve previously invested more than this guy AND live further away?

Investment in a LDR necessarily needs to be even more skewed in your direction than it would be in a normal relationship to counter the pull of other prospects. If she won’t close this gap, you get a clear idea that she is not that into you and your relationship is dead.

Am i making sense?

 

[Skills]

it seems you are just getting onitis with this new girl, the non monogamy and the rest managing it seems is your own form of cope(this is my conclusion reading the whole block of text, sign of onitis by the way)... which is fine, nothing better than to convert your onitis, but op you need to control and manage your own expectations(this is hard and painful at the beginning).... Seems to me that you really dig this girl and you want to lock her down, the thing is the situation and the ways you are going about it is flawed.... Ldr unless you had a previous existing relationship with the girl (and even then is challenging) is mainly friends with benefits territory no ltr territory which i smell is like what you really want discase as managing non monogamy for forum belonging, When you are selecting a relationship can not be based on hopes, and ideals, has to be with what you have present in the situation and following the correct vetting process.... I right now going through a ldr, but the girl is really vetted properly and i been with her for almost 3 years, topcat ldr is not a main but i believe a mltr (just a step above a fwd), it seems she started as fwd but what you really want based on my reads is make this girl your main, the way are going about it again is totally incorrect read this post:

Long-Term - Relationships fundamentals 101- Part 1 How to enter into a serious relationship properly

So guys every other month you see variations of post like this, or like this, or like this I personally have tried different relationships set up with what you guys consider wife material ( 20s, 8s plus, low lay count, traditional values, eastern european, christians and the rest), to open, to...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[gameboy]

Hey man, first of all, I hope it all works out for you and you enjoy your experience with this girl.

I don't like to rain on your parade, and I am pretty much a noob in terms of seduction but here's something I noticed that I haven't seen mentioned before:

She pretty much picked you up. From your report, she appeared in your circle, then moved you outside, then pulled you to her hotel. And I see you backward rationalizing that you somehow unconciously seduced her. Also, she's telling you that you're dominating her and you're taking what you want with her, when it actually (from what I read) seems to be the other way around?

Just something that may be worth being aware of. Otherwise, enjoy the ride!

 

[DoWhatWorks]

You’ve had ace feedback already @anon123

Threads like this are this forum at its best so shout out to everyone who contributed.

To answer your specific questions to me:

Wonder what you mean about her getting bored without a challenge, and losing interest in guys who invest more than her (when her words are the exact opposite and when she’s explained past guys she dated just weren’t really present or there for her as much as she had wanted). I might be misunderstanding what you are writing, but this sounds a bit counterintuitive.

You aren’t misunderstanding man - this aspect of game is counterintuitive.

Girls like you based on how much they invest in you *not* how much you invest in them.

It’s counter to mainstream (most useful things are lol) but every competent seducer I know takes advantage of this

Especially with these confident, open, go-getter types that this girl clearly is.

Don’t believe me? Over-invest & see what happens lol experience is the best teacher.

The number one rule as others have said: look at her actions not her words

One question, given that it is LDR(/FWB), and that we will be seeing each other less frequently, do I build compliance solely when we are face to face? Or are there ways to (if messaging less frequently) try to build this during those in between times?

My personal style is to build compliance when face to face ~95% of the time. 5% is me rewarding investment with a bit of back and forth over message if a girl sends me a song I’d like or something else useful with a bit more of a ramp up if she’s organized to visit me soon.

It’s good practice to make a girl feel great doing stuff for you… Which funnily enough is what this girl has successfully done with you lol

In your situation, I’d use the fact she knows your a biz owner to be less available and when she asks just say things have picked up. If she likes you enough… Her imagination will do the rest and she’ll offer to come see you/invest more

Good Luck x

 

[topcat]

In your situation, I’d use the fact she knows you’re a biz owner to be less available and when she asks just say things have picked up. If she likes you enough… Her imagination will do the rest and she’ll offer to come see you/invest more

Stellar advice!

 

[gameboy]

Girls like you based on how much they invest in you *not* how much you invest in them.

It’s counter to mainstream (most useful things are lol) but every competent seducer I know takes advantage of this

That is a very interesting and important truth to realize.

I once had a long conversation with a sugar baby (back when I still did those). One of the things that I remember most from that conversation -- because I found it so hard to understand -- was: "The fact that a guy gives you money prevents you from falling in love with him."

 

[KJ Francis]

That is a very interesting and important truth to realize.

I once had a long conversation with a sugar baby (back when I still did those). One of the things that I remember most from that conversation -- because I found it so hard to understand -- was: "The fact that a guy gives you money prevents you from falling in love with him."

Yeah I think it comes down to negative preselection. Guys pay because it is their only option, meaning other girls have always rejected him. Basically he is a movie with an IMDb score of 2.2 that no one wants to waste time watching.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Stellar advice!

Learnt from the best bro... For any lurkers if you want relationship advice - best active guys on here in no particular order:

TominHo, Skills, POB, Topcat & obviously Chase.