"Marrying Up" As an Attractive Man

[metalbird]

I'm not sure whether to put this in the "Lifestyle" board, or the "Relationships" one, but I think it fits slightly better here.

Essentially, I have come to a strange dilemma in my life, which I cannot find any guidance on or, really even reference to, online or in my social network.

I found this site about 10 years ago. I am also no stranger to the "red pill" or "manosphere" dogmas, though I tend not to agree with most of them. However, I have had two unquestionable LTR deal breakers since I was a teenager, before I found any of this stuff:

1. Don't date (tobacco) smokers
2. Don't date (single) mothers

Now, in a period of my life where having children is my number one priority when it comes to women and dating, I find myself in a strange position.

I am dating, and have a real possibility of marrying, a single mother of one child. (No, she doesn't smoke, thankfully!) What's more, is that she is almost five years older than me. Now, ordinarily, either of these facts would make her a non-option to me, as a man who is realistically targeting in the 5 year younger (and childless) range. But, there's a catch.

She is better off than me. MUCH better off. So much better off, that I can't help but consider what having a kid with her would do for my child's possibilities.

For context, both of her parents have Harvard graduate degrees. She herself has a PhD from an Ivy League school and currently works in a very prestigious position for her age in the capital. Her child is boarding in private high school, and she's certainly not looking for me to provide financial support or help raise him/her.

My thoughts are basically this: If I married this woman, it would be not be for my relationship with her. She will undoubtedly "wear the pants" in the relationship. I don't expect us to have much of a sex life, if at all, given the reverse power disparity, but I would be going into it with open eyes. Knowing her and her sex drive, we would probably wind up in an open relationship after a few years, possibly after she cheats on me. But she likes me, and she wants security and companionship right now. She also wants to have at least one more child while she still can.

I have had a pretty good run of short-term and casual fun so far, but I really want to be a dad now. From what I hear, marriage tends to be pretty boring/sexless anyway, but I want my kids to grow up with two parents. Am I crazy to be considering settling down with this woman? I know it goes against everything we are traditionally taught, and my emotions are against it, but as a rational, objective thinker, it seems like the right move from a "reproductive success" standpoint.

What are your thoughts?

Edit:
I wanted to add, her genetic stock is top tier as well. Very high IQ, very high EQ, very high looks, attractiveness, and health, both for her age now and when she was younger.

 

[Zoro]

I don't expect us to have much of a sex life, if at all, given the reverse power disparity, but I would be going into it with open eyes. Knowing her and her sex drive, we would probably wind up in an open relationship after a few years, possibly after she cheats on me. But she likes me, and she wants security and companionship right now. She also wants to have at least one more child while she still can.

Man plans and God laughs.

I think you need to get clarity on what you want. VERY clear.

There are a lot of assumptions that everything will work out neatly.

The alternative is harder. You create the conditions you want without so much sacrifice.

But I think this route could be just as hard, or even harder in other ways. Being unfulfilled and unhappy in a marriage, and having your kids growing up and being influenced by that situation.

From what I hear, marriage tends to be pretty boring/sexless anyway, but I want my kids to grow up with two parents

I just ended a 7 year relationship in which the sex was getting better every time. You can accept the stereotypes and status quo or you can be better. That takes work, learning, and doing things differently. Relationship game is a real thing. I credit this site and learning about sexual kung fu (ancient chinese sexual knowledge) with having a relationship that got better and sexier over time.

 

[Will_V]

I'm not sure whether to put this in the "Lifestyle" board, or the "Relationships" one, but I think it fits slightly better here.

Essentially, I have come to a strange dilemma in my life, which I cannot find any guidance on or, really even reference to, online or in my social network.

I found this site about 10 years ago. I am also no stranger to the "red pill" or "manosphere" dogmas, though I tend not to agree with most of them. However, I have had two unquestionable LTR deal breakers since I was a teenager, before I found any of this stuff:

1. Don't date (tobacco) smokers
2. Don't date (single) mothers

Now, in a period of my life where having children is my number one priority when it comes to women and dating, I find myself in a strange position.

I am dating, and have a real possibility of marrying, a single mother of one child. (No, she doesn't smoke, thankfully!) What's more, is that she is almost five years older than me. Now, ordinarily, either of these facts would make her a non-option to me, as a man who is realistically targeting in the 5 year younger (and childless) range. But, there's a catch.

She is better off than me. MUCH better off. So much better off, that I can't help but consider what having a kid with her would do for my child's possibilities.

For context, both of her parents have Harvard graduate degrees. She herself has a PhD from an Ivy League school and currently works in a very prestigious position for her age in the capital. Her child is boarding in private high school, and she's certainly not looking for me to provide financial support or help raise him/her.

My thoughts are basically this: If I married this woman, it would be not be for my relationship with her. She will undoubtedly "wear the pants" in the relationship. I don't expect us to have much of a sex life, if at all, given the reverse power disparity, but I would be going into it with open eyes. Knowing her and her sex drive, we would probably wind up in an open relationship after a few years, possibly after she cheats on me. But she likes me, and she wants security and companionship right now. She also wants to have at least one more child while she still can.

I have had a pretty good run of short-term and casual fun so far, but I really want to be a dad now. From what I hear, marriage tends to be pretty boring/sexless anyway, but I want my kids to grow up with two parents. Am I crazy to be considering settling down with this woman? I know it goes against everything we are traditionally taught, and my emotions are against it, but as a rational, objective thinker, it seems like the right move from a "reproductive success" standpoint.

What are your thoughts?

Edit:
I wanted to add, her genetic stock is top tier as well. Very high IQ, very high EQ, very high looks, attractiveness, and health, both for her age now and when she was younger.

So you can't lead or provide for the relationship, and you 'don't expect much of a sex life', what are you offering really besides appeasing her temporary desperation?

You say you expect her to cheat and then it goes to an open relationship, do you really think that's how it works, that a woman is going to just offer a stable open relationship to some guy she just cheated on, who doesn't give her much of a sex life, and who she doesn't even depend on for resources?

The fact that you're seriously considering bringing your own kids into this kind of shemozzle (or even her own kid) makes me really question how rational you are right now. Seems like you're so smitten with her genetic material you are blind to the basic realities of relationships. Not sure what to suggest here my friend except to figure out how to improve your grip on reality.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

@Will_V Took the words out of my mouth while I was typing an answer.

To add though:

I have had a pretty good run of short-term and casual fun so far, but I really want to be a dad now.

Your biological clock is ticking (which is normal) and now you're acting irrationally.

Don't date (single) mothers

You only have x2 requirements and she's failed x1 of them lol. If you're feeling this push to have kids I suggest you only sleep women who don't have any dealbreakers. I suspect you lack the abundance to be that picky though which is the root problem here...

From what I hear, marriage tends to be pretty boring/sexless anyway

Most people are also in debt/depressed and not in shape. Why bother being on this forum if you want typical results?

my emotions are against it, but as a rational, objective thinker, it seems like the right move from a "reproductive success" standpoint.

Respectfully going to call you out on your bullshit. You're not being "rationale" at all. Your biology is panicking and wants to have kids and you're backward rationalizing how this only girl you're currently sleeping with is suddenly the "right one"

but I want my kids to grow up with two parents

You'll have higher odds of providing this to your kids if you avoid the following dynamic where your "wife" will despise you...

Knowing her and her sex drive, we would probably wind up in an open relationship after a few years, possibly after she cheats on me

You have to also be honest with yourself whether this relationship dynamic is something you would enjoy... The mere fact you're questioning makes me think the answer is a big NO

Am I crazy to be considering settling down with this woman?

Yes.

If you truly care about your future kids you would become successful yourself and create absolute abundance to select the right woman.

 

[TomInHo]

Step 1: Marry her with no prenup
Step 2: Give her a baby
Step 3: Stay married until shit gets stale
Step 4: Hire one of us to seduce your wife
Step 5: Get evidence of her cheating
Step 6: Divorce her and collect alimony
Step 7: Profit
Step 8: Save some of the money to pay off the mortgage for your mansion in Hell

 

[Regal Tiger]

Step 1: Marry her with no prenup
Step 2: Give her a baby
Step 3: Stay married until shit gets stale
Step 4: Hire one of us to seduce your wife
Step 5: Get evidence of her cheating
Step 6: Divorce her and collect alimony
Step 7: Profit
Step 8: Save some of the money to pay off the mortgage for your mansion in Hell

Seconded haha

But yeah, your biological clock is ticking and you've got baby rabies. If she wants another kid and you do too then you can try. But do so knowing that the upbringing of that kid is going to be fucked up the ass by life

Doesn't matter what kinda genetic stock she got, a single mother is like putting a curse on your kid

 

[Conquistador]

I apologize in advance if anything I say is particularly cutting. I'm shooting from the hip (i.e. zombie mode subconscious) here.

I'm not sure whether to put this in the "Lifestyle" board, or the "Relationships" one, but I think it fits slightly better here.

That pretty much sums it up already.

So much better off, that I can't help but consider what having a kid with her would do for my child's possibilities.

Few people are capable of actually extracting the maximum benefits from abundant resources, financial or otherwise.
Possibilities are just that. Besides, money can't buy some things.
And although statistically wealthier children have advantages, it's not so simple.

My thoughts are basically this: If I married this woman, it would be not be for my relationship with her.

Self-fulfilling recipe for disaster. Basically, you're gold digging on behalf of your future children.

She will undoubtedly "wear the pants" in the relationship.

You'd be surprised at what's possible in such situations.

I don't expect us to have much of a sex life, if at all, given the reverse power disparity

Easily remedied.

but I would be going into it with open eyes. Knowing her and her sex drive

Either you can handle her now, in which case you should be able to continue doing so, or you can't even handle her now. Which is it?

we would probably wind up in an open relationship after a few years, possibly after she cheats on me.

Did you consider the possibility that if she has all the power (because you gave it to her) then she might cheat and then expect you not to?
If you do decide to go through with this, ditch the inferiority complex first.

From what I hear

Where exactly?

marriage tends to be pretty boring/sexless anyway

Not necessarily. It depends.
And that attitude will be self-fulfilling.

but I want my kids to grow up with two parents

You yourself have already predicted that there will be a... nonzero chance your relationship won't last your children through college. Divorce hurts. A lot.
Look, I did not have an easy time at all at home growing up. Still don't actually.
But I have to give my parents credit where it's due. They've always had a healthy relationship (at least with each other). And to the best of my knowledge there's still a certain amount of sex
I can't even imagine what life would be like if they didn't. It would be unbearable for everyone in the household.

Am I crazy to be considering settling down with this woman?

Not crazy, just blinded by your own biases and stuff. Going into this situation, at least with the mindset you're displaying, sounds like a Really Bad Idea™.

I know it goes against everything we are traditionally taught

If something contravenes the tenets of traditional culture, conventional wisdom, AND seduction, then maybe there's a reason none of those schools of thought endorse it.

and my emotions are against it,

Trust your gut, buddy.
I've noticed that, at least for women, mistakes based on intuition usually come through misinterpreting the signals it gives them.

but as a rational, objective thinker, it seems like the right move from a "reproductive success" standpoint.

With respect, this line is pure cringe. Do you understand what reproductive success actually entails?

Edit:
I wanted to add, her genetic stock is top tier as well.

You don't actually know that. Her phenotype is very attractive, or at least it seems that way to you (money can do wonders, and in the eyes of those vulnerable to it, so can status, glamor, and social graces.)

Even if that is in fact true, does it really matter that much?

Furthermore, if you want to go all Darwinian, get this: the only objective measure of genetic quality is reproductive success. Nothing else matters.

If, through some non-biological quirk of the system, people with, say, BRCA1 mutations, or worse, tended to reproduce more successfully, then they would be objectively fitter.



I understand why this seems like a dilemma. But from my perspective you appear to be entranced, and not by love. This kind of stuff is what the backstories of novels are made out of.

Look, this woman might be really something, if she's able to turn a guy who I assume is fairly strong and attractive into the kind of guy who wrote the OP, but in that case, either you should let her go, or have a clear idea of how you're going to be able to have a relationship with her at the bare minimum as an equal.

 

[Chase]

@metalbird,

Interesting.

If I read between the lines on your other posts, what you’re really looking for is financial security.

I wouldn’t kid myself about genetic payoffs or anything like that. Every child you have is a random crapshoot of genes from you and the mother. Even if she’s smart, disciplined, and successful, it’s no guarantee a given child gets those aspects of her. If she’s an older woman already with a kid and engaged in a busy, high-flying career, she’s probably not giving you more than one child. The odds aren’t on your side.

There’s also the fact that she’s already divorced and a single mother. Second marriages fail at about a 2/3 rate. So you’re going into a scenario where the woman will wear the pants, you won’t be getting laid, the relationship probably fails, and you’ll most likely sink 5-7 years into it and get just 1 kid, with it being anyone’s guess whether that kid gets all your good traits and all her good traits, or some of her good and bad traits and some of your good and bad traits, or just all her bad traits plus all your bad traits.

But if your true goal is material comfort, then — maybe it is worth the cost.

If she’s messing around on the side, hooking up with her bosses, or the two of you have an open relationship, but she’s keeping you in comfort… maybe that’s what you’re really after here?

If you’re not, and high-grade genetic quality kids are, then here’s the process:

1. Find a girl in her mid-twenties who is beautiful, highly educated, and ideally somewhat accomplished. Also ideally on top of that she comes from a good background with successful parents / siblings
   
   
2. Wife her up fast while she’s young and get her pumping out babies for you. The more the merrier! This is playing the odds
   
   
3. Focus on location, skill development, and moral development in the children. Location (good, safe, non-crazy area with excellent schools) to control for all the things you yourself can’t directly control. Skill development to give your children something to bounce off of / a baseline to expand from, since the school system is in general better at training factory workers than 21st Century entrepreneurs / CEOs / highly paid technicians. Moral development because schools aren’t teaching Plutarch or the Bible anymore

If you produce 4-7 kids, with a girl you’re reasonably sure is excellent all around genetic quality, even if she isn’t as proven as a 30-something Harvard grad moneybags divorcée, you’re going to get a few genetic lottery winners in the mix — those kids who get all your best traits and all the mother’s best traits and are basically destined for success no matter what sort of upbringing they have. For the kids who regress toward the mean, or the ones who get dealt a bad hand of attributes, you still give them as good a shot as possible with a good location, skills training, and moral development.

By the way, if you are the one wearing the pants, the sex can stay good basically forever. Especially if your woman repeatedly gets frustrated at you when her betaization attempts fail. She gets pissed off, considers you terrible because she can’t control you… then she gets turned on… then you fuck her silly… then she gets all cozy and decides you’re really an amazing guy, actually… aaaaand the cycle repeats: sooner or later she tries to betaize you again, fails, gets pissed off, thinks you’re horrible, gets turned on, you fuck her silly, etc.

There’s none of that in relationships where the woman wears the pants. Instead you just get that sexual desert… because women aren’t turned on by men they control.

But if your whole goal is “be rich” and it’s looking like you can’t get there yourself on your own, maybe that’s something worth setting other priorities aside to achieve with this chick? If she is your only shot maybe, and that really is the ultimate goal?

A little recommended reading on selecting wives & mothers, and on the settle down curve, just to make sure you are thinking clearly:

How to Screen for a Wife and Mother

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Why People Settle Down: The 3-Step Settling Curve

I recently was privy to a conversation between a handful of women in their early- to mid-thirties. They were for the most part quite attractive and confident, and their careers were solid and their paychecks healthy. The conversation went something like this: Girl 1: I’m someone who thought...

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Chase