Neo- Direct, 'Real' Direct, Sniper Game: Confusion!

[AspiringStoic]

Hey guys!

I have gotten a bit messed up and confused in the head reading many of these concepts here on the forum and the site. As I see it there is a slight disconnect between the way we look at these different things. Let me flesh out my understanding here with an example and I would like to hear your thoughts. Just for reference I would like to link this article which was one of them that got me thinking about all this:

How REAL Direct Game Works... Compared with Neo-Direct

Real direct game has a lot of nuance and flavor that overly simplistic “neo-direct” lacks. What are the differences? All spelled out for you to see. Hey guys, and welcome back. Contents I. Real Direct Game The Use of Pre-opening Techg The Not-So-Direct Approach II. Frame Control Calibration...

www.girlschase.com

So here is my understanding of it. There are 2 guys. Lets call the first guy the Social Freedom guy and the second guy is the Smooth Seducer guy. Lets take the setting as a daygame scenario (but it would apply the same to night time as well). Both of these guys step out of their house one day.

They both see 25 girls, out and about that they find physically attractive at first glance!

Social Freedom Guy
This guy grew up very shy and terrified of talking to women. His main focus has been to train himself to go up and talk to any girl he finds attractive. Therefore, his highest value is:

"Whenever you see an attractive woman, go up and talk to her."

His highest motivation is to beat that inner resistance and to have that feeling of satisfaction that he did not fall prey to the excuses in his mind, he went ahead and did it.

So lets say this guy goes out and opens all the 25 women he sees that he finds attractive. He does not care what the percentage chance of "success" is on each individual girl. To him beating his resistance is the success!

So out of 25 women, he will encounter women who are taken, who don't like him, who are busy running off somewhere, who are getting over a break up etc. And he ends up meeting 5 girls who end up available and like him. So lets say he ends up with these stats.

Approaches: 25
Numbers: 5
Dates: 3
Lays: 1

His ratio: 1/25

Now lets see what the other guy does.

Smooth Seducer Guy
This guy wants to avoid rejection or minimize it as much as possible. For him his highest goal is this:

"How can I speak to as few women as possible and still get laid."

He is all about the ratios. He is motivated by that. He wants the one approach, one lay goal and works towards it.

When he steps out, he also comes across 25 women he finds attractive. But he weeds out all the women who are walking quickly, the women who don't look at him when they pass him, the women who are not in a convenient position to be approached etc and he is looking for ones who give him AIs and who seem to be free as they are sitting somewhere or walking slowly.

He finds 5 women out of the 25 who meet these criteria. So he approaches those 5 women. He runs his game on them and gets 4 of those girls' numbers. So his stats look like this:

Approaches: 5
Numbers: 4
Dates: 2
Lays: 1

His ratio: 1/5

So here we go. The second guy has an amazing ratio. He just spoke to 5 girls and got laid.

When someone says they get 1 in 5, to the guy who belongs to the first category, it sounds perplexing. That somehow he is missing something.


But is it really true that the second guy has a ratio of 1 in 5?

All that happened was that the smooth seducer guy screened out the 20 women BEFORE and WITHOUT opening them.

Whereas the Social Freedom guy screened those 20 women out AFTER and BY opening them.


Its the difference in their values that makes them take their different approaches.

The smooth seducer guy wants to minimize rejection and most importantly,

He feels that he LOST and feels DEFEATED everytime he approaches a girl and does not get a result.

Whereas the Social Freedom guy feels like he LOST and feels DEFEATED everytime he sees a girl and DOES NOT open her.

There is a huge difference in what both of them value and from what I see, there is a huge bias towards being the smooth seducer guy. It is held up as an ideal that everyone should aspire to.

Whereas the Social Freedom guy is ridiculed and told that his "Game" is inadequate, and it sucks etc.

As I see it, no special game technique can overcome a girl being married, engaged, one who is running to get to her exam etc.

Its just that the smooth seducer guy by being extremely selective in who he approaches reduces his chances of running into girls who fall into these categories and approaching only those who are most likely to be interested.

So comparing his ratio to the social freedom guy does not even make sense because like I have said they don't even value the same things.

And I think this needs to be looked into and thought about before we make comparisons and denigrate one approach and hold the other to be superior. As I see it they are just very different.

 

[Marty]

But he weeds out all the women who are walking quickly, the women who don't look at him when they pass him, the women who are not in a convenient position to be approached etc and he is looking for ones who give him AIs and who seem to be free as they are sitting somewhere or walking slowly.

I don’t think he can become the ”smooth seducer” without first moving through the “social freedom” phase. Else, how will he know:

• Who is looking and isn’t looking at him
• Who is in a convenient position, or what a “convenient” position even is
• Who is giving him an approach invitation, or what an approach invitation even looks like

…without first gaining experience?

I’m fully with you on the meaninglessness of comparing ratios across different styles, however. I avoid comparing myself with others, and try to focus on improvement from my own baseline.

By the way, I read your end-of-year report in your Journal and was impressed; you’re really killing it.

 

[Chase]

@AspiringStoic,

Have you made thousands of unfiltered approaches as the social freedom guy, or is this more a thought experiment? Seems like this is more a hypothetical question, right?

I don't believe anyone is trying to shame or denigrate guys doing lots of approaches. Instead, we are just aiming to protect them against the burnout that comes from mass approaching with low results. If you go out and approach loads and loads of girls, but do not get much out of it, even if you are telling yourself, "This is fine! I'm totally fine! Not bothered at all by this in the least!" there is still a ton of learning happening in the background in your subconscious and you are still putting a lot of work in for low results.

Anyway... like @Marty said, you have to go through a period of being a mass approacher before you can start sniping. Just a part of the process.

But past a certain experience threshold, you will have your instincts honed enough that you will not usually be mass approaching, because you won't need to. You will just know how an approach is likely to go, within reason. It gets a lot harder to push yourself to make a bunch of approaches you know are likely to not work, based on your experience, especially when you have plenty of others you can make that you know have a reasonable chance of working.

The only guys who remain mass approachers forever are the autistic guys who aren't able to hone their radars well enough to start seeing this stuff so they can target much better. Everyone else ultimately reaches a point where he simply does not need to mass approach, is not motivated to, and can instead just pick off the girls most likely to receive him well.

You'll see. Mass approach while you're improving. Eventually you'll reach a point where you just started targeting more and more!

Chase

 

[Kvothe]

@AspiringStoic,

Have you made thousands of unfiltered approaches as the social freedom guy, or is this more a thought experiment? Seems like this is more a hypothetical question, right?

I don't believe anyone is trying to shame or denigrate guys doing lots of approaches. Instead, we are just aiming to protect them against the burnout that comes from mass approaching with low results. If you go out and approach loads and loads of girls, but do not get much out of it, even if you are telling yourself, "This is fine! I'm totally fine! Not bothered at all by this in the least!" there is still a ton of learning happening in the background in your subconscious and you are still putting a lot of work in for low results.

Anyway... like @Marty said, you have to go through a period of being a mass approacher before you can start sniping. Just a part of the process.

But past a certain experience threshold, you will have your instincts honed enough that you will not usually be mass approaching, because you won't need to. You will just know how an approach is likely to go, within reason. It gets a lot harder to push yourself to make a bunch of approaches you know are likely to not work, based on your experience, especially when you have plenty of others you can make that you know have a reasonable chance of working.

The only guys who remain mass approachers forever are the autistic guys who aren't able to hone their radars well enough to start seeing this stuff so they can target much better. Everyone else ultimately reaches a point where he simply does not need to mass approach, is not motivated to, and can instead just pick off the girls most likely to receive him well.

You'll see. Mass approach while you're improving. Eventually you'll reach a point where you just started targeting more and more!

Chase

This is an interesting one. Especially because I think mass approaching is extremely helpful if you've been out of the field for a while and have lost some of that killer instinct.

But then you also have the targeting so you feel less motivated to approach the girls you think are closed off. But you also have much more AA so you screw up the approaches, or you wimp out of clearly available women.

I think mass approaching, and direct opens have their place-and are a tool, and indirect opens-have their place and are a tool.

 

[AspiringStoic]

Have you made thousands of unfiltered approaches as the social freedom guy, or is this more a thought experiment? Seems like this is more a hypothetical question, right?

Nope have not done it. You are right, it is a hypothetical question.

You'll see. Mass approach while you're improving.

This is all I wanted to hear. I am at the moment averaging 10-15 approaches per week. I get 2-3 numbers on average from then. I hardly ever get any harsh reactions, most girls who are not interested or taken are also always happy that I approached.

They leave smiling because I always make it a point to wish them a good day and leave on a positive note regardless of the outcome.

I think my numbers are too low. I want to at least double them and be talking to 30+ a week. The challenge for me has always been to overcome AA and approach more.

But now when I hear all this talk about ratios and Neo-direct and what is real game and what is not etc its highly discouraging and makes me feel like wanting to approach more is a bad thing.

From all the guys I know in real life who also don't have much choice with women, their biggest problem is that they do not approach enough women. I have never in real life come across a guy whose problem was that he approached too many women.

On this forum as well, I don't see anyone posting about approaching any insane number of women except an outlier here and there.

Of the hundreds of members on here and the thosuands who visit, how many guys do you think would have the problem of approaching too much?

Maybe 1 in a 1000 of anyone who reads this maybe doing that? Maybe even less.

So that is why I don't understand why there is more being written about approaching too much rather than posts being written to encourage guys to approach more.

Telling guys not to approach too much would only make sense if here you have guy after guy saying he is approaching 50 girls a day. I don't think that is the case at all. Most guys' problem even here on this forum is that we are all doing too less.

So this is just me trying to understand why so many posts are being written about over approaching and me sorting out the conflict in my head between me wanting and trying to approach more and reading stuff here that goes against it.

 

[AspiringStoic]

I don’t think he can become the ”smooth seducer” without first moving through the “social freedom” phase.

Yup exactly. Thats part of what I found perplexing. Chase just answered by the way saying you need to first do the mass approaching for a while. But as far as I see most guys don't even have what it takes to mass approach!!

So why concentrate so much on the stage that comes after mass approaching, when most guys are not even able to get to the mass approaching stage?

By the way, I read your end-of-year report in your Journal and was impressed; you’re really killing it.

Thanks for the encouragement. Last year was hard work but well worth it. I am slowly progressing. I wish I reach a stage where I can come on this forum and say "Guys I just approached 30 women today!" Is that too much? Should I reduce it.

That would be a luxurious problem to have.

 

[Skills]

No much to add context.... Mass approach is helpful through aa stages or like krove mentions to get rid of rust again aa... Neo direct is half effort, blow me in blow me out approaches, for what i understand, i to find it confusing.... Also the guys that are more pro indirect are not approaching single sets isolated on day game.... They are more night gamers... With that being said gen z guys don't even approach women tbh... So the bar is low...

 

[ChrisVirtue]

The smooth seducer guy wants to minimize rejection and most importantly,

He feels that he LOST and feels DEFEATED everytime he approaches a girl and does not get a result.

This sounds like a guy in major scarcity to me lol.

I think most of the best seducers still operate with a degree of freedom of outcome

 

[James D]

I don't think the smooth seducer guy feels lost and defeated by rejection.

It's efficiency, rather than avoidance of rejection, that nudges the smooth seducer guy towards sniper game.

 

[Swati]

After a bit of experience in the field, I could say that Neo Direct is generally those dudes going out dishing out compliments, wishing for a receptive social girl who magically hooks and does the "work" for him, leading to the bed. Looks good on video doesn't often happen that way.

For your AA, it's probably more of a situation where you haven't socialized for a while and are not in the momentum to do a lot. If you are low on momentum or have a bad vibe, it's more likely you will still get blown out.

Being indirect or direct matters less if you "know" the game, but most of those "just go approach" don't understand, when a dude approaches ALOT, after a couple of years.

-"It's just how it is, suck it up MASS APPROACH everywhere", this dude usually doesn't understand, like @Chase mentioned above, Aspie. Or the "self-help" wanna-be PUAs, all about the inner game

or

-socialize with everyone a bit build momentum get into a mood

If you were "day gaming" you need to be in a more "controlled" environment. Venue contributes to the ratio as well, since there are social aspects of it. Streets is fine, I just don't prefer it.

There are cities and social frames, where the direct works better than the indirect, personally, I think indirect is a higher level of game, understanding of other variables, and has a lot more you can work with

As for the meet-n-lay ratio, it'll come more naturally and with more calibration to the environment and your way of approaching generally. It's not like players don't approach if they see a beautiful girl they like. Guys who don't approach shouldn't be thinking about this at all, go approach or don't. Only one place is the mega club where you need to approach a lot more, cause you can't hook well when the famous DJ and layout of the place, but that's another story

 

[Chase]

@AspiringStoic,

I think my numbers are too low. I want to at least double them and be talking to 30+ a week. The challenge for me has always been to overcome AA and approach more.

You definitely can do more:

1. Schedule times + places you will go out during the week
2. Commit yourself to doing a certain number of approaches per outing
3. If it's going well go for stretch goals

My first year really at it I didn't keep numbers like a lot of guys here seem to but I would just go out to bars and be talking to women constantly. If 10 minutes went by without me either still being in a conversation with a girl I'd approached or not talking to a new girl I'd go approach. I was going out 3-4 nights a week doing this and was easily doing 10+ approaches/night. Sometimes many more.

After about 1.5 years of going hard I realized that I felt quite comfortable in bars/clubs (I used to have tons of anxiety in them) and approaching had become much easier. Though I still had an approach anxiety learning curve for day game (which I wasn't doing much of at that point) and nighttime street game.


@Skills,

Neo direct is half effort, blow me in blow me out approaches, for what i understand, i to find it confusing....

That's basically it...

I just made a post on it for beginners that explains it pretty clearly because I've seen multiple guys now saying they are afraid of accidentally doing neo-direct but aren't sure what it is, lol... like it is some kind of religious dogma or something.

What Is a "Bad" Approach (Neo-Direct)?

A few years back Alek Rolstad and I came out against a disturbing low- / no-game trend we have been seeing in a lot of newer guys approaching girls. The trend revolves around making generic looks-based direct opener compliments to girls, with basically no push-pull or flirtation whatsoever...

www.skilledseducer.com

We can just refer guys to this any time we get the "How do I not make my approach be neo-direct?" questions.

Chase