Non-dominant men

[Kent]

I am curious what percentage of women you guys think can be attracted to non-dominant men; as GC has widely written, social dominance is a status-exhibiting behavior and certainly among the top if not the single biggest turn on for the majority of women.

I'm not talking about pathetic, weak men. I'm talking about the gentle types who would fight and die for their loved ones in a heartbeat and work hard to contribute to humanity, but simply are not motivated to compete for leadership positions. I am probably in this camp 70% of the time, particularly when I'm not lifting heavy or in a winning streak in life. I imagine a decent percentage of men are similar, especially as testosterone continues to drop.

This study examines why some women appear to prefer submissive men: "Attraction of some high-ranking women towards low-ranking men represents a puzzle." I didn't examine the paper closely but it argues the pair could be evolutionarily advantageous in some circumstances. It could be feminist cope though and I think the percentage of women who prefer submissive men (not only as long-term partners but also sexually) is probably only 1% or 2%.

ToddV argued this is a factor subject to cultural influence; he thinks women in stable countries with less economic disparity (Scandinavian countries) value comfort and connection over status, whereas the reverse is true in more polarized countries like the U.S.

However, another interesting study found bonobos (commonly argued to be the evolutionary precursor that could enable more egalitarian homo sapien social organizations, since they are our closer relative along with their more competitive foil, Chimpanzees) also prefer "bad boys," as "bonobos also prefer an individual who wins a competition for a certain location in a scene over a character who loses. This sensitivity to dominance is not necessarily surprising: hierarchies are ubiquitous in primate societies, and those who are dominant often retain preferential access to resources and mates and so may be worth befriending."

So it's clear this is deep-wired even in women who might have more of the bonobo genetic wiring.

I have no doubt maximizing social dominance is essential for seduction, but what about long-term relationships? Can men have a successful LTR with a certain type of woman without consistently dominating the relationship? Or does he still need to exhibit a more subtle form of leadership and dominance?

 

[gameboy]

I am curious what percentage of women you guys think can be attracted to non-dominant men; as GC has widely written, social dominance is a status-exhibiting behavior and certainly among the top if not the single biggest turn on for the majority of women.

I'm not talking about pathetic, weak men. I'm talking about the gentle types who would fight and die for their loved ones in a heartbeat and work hard to contribute to humanity, but simply are not motivated to compete for leadership positions. I am probably in this camp 70% of the time, particularly when I'm not lifting heavy or in a winning streak in life. I imagine a decent percentage of men are similar, especially as testosterone continues to drop.

This study examines why some women appear to prefer submissive men: "Attraction of some high-ranking women towards low-ranking men represents a puzzle." I didn't examine the paper closely but it argues the pair could be evolutionarily advantageous in some circumstances. It could be feminist cope though and I think the percentage of women who prefer submissive men (not only as long-term partners but also sexually) is probably only 1% or 2%.

ToddV argued this is a factor subject to cultural influence; he thinks women in stable countries with less economic disparity (Scandinavian countries) value comfort and connection over status, whereas the reverse is true in more polarized countries like the U.S.

However, another interesting study found bonobos (commonly argued to be the evolutionary precursor that could enable more egalitarian homo sapien social organizations, since they are our closer relative along with their more competitive foil, Chimpanzees) also prefer "bad boys," as "bonobos also prefer an individual who wins a competition for a certain location in a scene over a character who loses. This sensitivity to dominance is not necessarily surprising: hierarchies are ubiquitous in primate societies, and those who are dominant often retain preferential access to resources and mates and so may be worth befriending."

So it's clear this is deep-wired even in women who might have more of the bonobo genetic wiring.

I have no doubt maximizing social dominance is essential for seduction, but what about long-term relationships? Can men have a successful LTR with a certain type of woman without consistently dominating the relationship? Or does he still need to exhibit a more subtle form of leadership and dominance?

I think it can work if you are submissive and you're with a dominant woman.

My last LTR was with a woman who was just as dominant as myself. We lasted 6 years. I can tell you we were constantly arguing and fighting.

I believe that the ideal relationship is a dom and a sub. Doesn't matter whether the man or the woman is in the lead.

2 subs - will probably bore each other to death and it will just fall apart (if they ever even get together)
2 doms - constant fighting as I experienced

 

[KJ Francis]

I'm very interested to learn more about the social status part. Absolutely Leo on the Titanic has been reality for some of us here.

Curious how it impacts attraction when the girl is in the structure too. Like Bill Gates commanded legions of men. If you, a girl, and the boss of you two are in a social dynamic, I wonder if you can ultimately retain attraction if he starts tasking you in front of her. You can roll your eyes and smirk at her like you're rejecting his authority, but you still have to do what he says.

As for long marriages, yes if the woman is dominant I think it lasts longer. Which long marriage would you like... The type where she flirts with me at work and you have no idea, the kind where she's fucking someone else, the sexless marriage that's just fine on paper...

I have seen long marriages where the woman is in charge and can boss him around the house doing her bidding. They're not happy.

The social dominance thing I think is a very interesting attraction trigger though. I definitely think you can be a sexy janitor and have a great relationship with good sex if you can still lead her (assuming she's not a dominatrix type).

 

[Chase]

@Kent,

There's a study that finds that non-dominant men are the most faithful partners out there. There's another study that finds that relationships where the woman is the more dominant partner last longer and are more harmonious. There's a third study that finds that the more confident, successful, and dominant a man is, the less he tends to invest in his children/family and the more he focuses on himself.

So, while the dominant bad boys are definitely sexy, there're a lot of reasons for women to get tired of these guys and go looking for gentlemanly providers.

Anecdotally a lot of women who've gone for their chad and been burned switch over to the softer guys looking to feel safer. They know these guys aren't going to hurt them.

Some of these gals eventually get bored and go out on the hunt again to find a new chad and hopefully wrangle him in better.

But many of them end up sticking around and put down roots with that nice, cozy, comfy, safe guy.

The Internet is this weird polarized place where people like to act like all women are always going for these caricature bad boys and stomp all over the beta guys. But I have seen a bunch of relationships with beta guys where both partners are clearly comfortable. There are some in my family where female family members are married to guys who are really good guys, sufficiently cool guys, but definitely not alpha dominant sorts. So far as I can tell, everybody seems happy, and the relationships are stable.

Anyway, it's not going to do you many favors in pickup, going the non-dominant route. But there are plenty of long-term relationships where the dudes aren't dominating types, and plenty of those relationships work just fine.

If it wasn't a reproductively viable strategy, natural selection would just weed out non-dominant men, instead of this case we have today where in every society regardless of testosterone level shenanigans you have huge swaths of men who aren't dominant guys but still have women and aren't all getting cheated on left and right like the manosphere makes it sound like (I mean... some of them do... though that also happens to some dominant guys as well... and if you're a GC reader you should be well-equipped to screen out the girls most likely to do that regardless, even if you aren't the dominant sort).

Chase

 

[KJ Francis]

I mean, I definitely give you the extreme view lol I'm in the very early period of success when everything is upside down from the past.

Still, my definition of "happy" is different from theirs. Some of these guys are absolutely content and have a great life.

But the man and woman both have ZERO idea about good sex. There is an undercurrent of subtle lack of respect, lots of testing, obvious testosterone hits when he submits to her frame, etc.

 

[KJ Francis]

Anecdotally a lot of women who've gone for their chad and been burned switch over to the softer guys looking to feel safer. They know these guys aren't going to hurt them.

Some of these gals eventually get bored and go out on the hunt again to find a new chad and hopefully wrangle him in better.

But many of them end up sticking around and put down roots with that nice, cozy, comfy, safe guy.

This is where the "genuine man" article really shines! It's a rare spot to be in.

This is also what's so sad about it. You weren't her first choice and probably will never know that, or maybe you will and it will always hurt a little. Maybe she's off in her head somewhere during sex....

 

[DarkKnight]

If it wasn't a reproductively viable strategy, natural selection would just weed out non-dominant men, instead of this case we have today where in every society regardless of testosterone level shenanigans you have huge swaths of men who aren't dominant guys but still have women and aren't all getting cheated on left and right like the manosphere makes it sound like (I mean... some of them do... though that also happens to some dominant guys as well... and if you're a GC reader you should be well-equipped to screen out the girls most likely to do that regardless, even if you aren't the dominant sort).

I really like how you always seem to bring some normalcy between all those people who go for extremes.

 

[ulrich]

This is also what's so sad about it. You weren't her first choice and probably will never know that, or maybe you will and it will always hurt a little. Maybe she's off in her head somewhere during sex....

Why sad?
It is only sad if you cling to a naive view of reality.

Fuck 10 girls or more, and it will be patently obvious you are not the first choice of many of them and they are not yours either.

Most people do that… it’s normal… it’s assortative.

Also, if she is your wife, you’re gonna fuck her 100, 200 times at the very least.
Do you still think Chad from her teens has more influence on her than her own husband (provided he fucks her good and often)?

 

[DarkKnight]

Also, if she is your wife, you’re gonna fuck her 100, 200 times at the very least.
Do you still think Chad from her teens has more influence on her than her own husband (provided he fucks her good and often)?

Some girls, who see you as the "one who got away" are sadly very influenced by you despite being in a relationship. So yeah, somewhere there is an imprint although factually in the long run I guess it doesn't matter that much.

 

[ulrich]

Some girls, who see you as the "one who got away" are sadly very influenced by you despite being in a relationship. So yeah, somewhere there is an imprint although factually in the long run I guess it doesn't matter that much.

I would argue that imprint is more of a rationalization/romantization on her part.

I wonder, would she be as infatuated with the guy if she had regular contact with him?

At that point, the husband is competing with an idea, not a real person.
And an idea is certainly not fucking her in a recurring basis…

I’m not saying the imprint is not real… but I feel that with decent relationship skills (not even good, just decent) that should not really be a problem… unless it gets in your head that it is a problem.

 

[DarkKnight]

@ulrich agreed

 

[StrayDog]

Some girls, who see you as the "one who got away" are sadly very influenced by you despite being in a relationship. So yeah, somewhere there is an imprint although factually in the long run I guess it doesn't matter that much.

yeah, often wish my ex would stop reaching out to me. she's been in a relationship for 4 years now. I've told her she needs to focus on that. and just when I think she's moved on she reaches out. like every 3 or 4 months. At first it was like all the time. Seems to be less frequent these days though. I also left town recently, so there is that...

I actually really like and respect the guy. He is sweet and stable, where I was rough around the edges and unpredictable. But he doesn't really know how to draw the line with her.

Whenever we are all at a social gathering she acts all awkward and shy around me, then when her and I run into each other and he is not around she is all open and the same ol gal I was with. Then she hits me up a few days or a week later like "Hey we gotta catch up" I'm like come on girl whats the point.

Recently I was chatting with the dude about his relatively successful business that has been a challenge to get momentum with and he said "it's just like a relationship, eventually the honey moon phase wears off". I could tell he was a bit worn out, and I can imagine it was all the same shit I didn't really want to deal with when I was with her.

I don't know how relevant any of this is to the discussion. But I figured I'd share any way

 

[KJ Francis]

Why sad?
It is only sad if you cling to a naive view of reality.

Fuck 10 girls or more, and it will be patently obvious you are not the first choice of many of them and they are not yours either.

Most people do that… it’s normal… it’s assortative.

Also, if she is your wife, you’re gonna fuck her 100, 200 times at the very least.
Do you still think Chad from her teens has more influence on her than her own husband (provided he fucks her good and often)?

Yeah I see it as a supply and demand market that has transaction cost that dissuades jumping ship.

I'm fully aware I will probably also "settle" and that we can pair bond and things are always changing with the passion trap.

I do think her semester abroad with a European lover who fucks all the tourists (looking at you, reader) or whatever will stick in her head throughout her marriage even with really great sex. If you trump the sex and how you make her feel, that's a different story.

There's a lot of variables. I'm seeing very provider type relationships. Sure guys reading GC can have great monogamous relationships. And despite filtering everything through a hardcore mental model, I am not actually so mentally rigid but find it an extremely efficient way to be decisive and always be able to formulate a half baked answer to the "why" and move forward with intent.

But I'm not only talking provider guy vs. meeting Skills one night on the dancefloor after exams are done and getting railed for a couple months before finding a nice guy at her new job.

There's also like... Average guy and average girl are married. Girl wanted the attractive guy in her class who chatted with her and never asked her out. He's also a provider type. Still sees him at parties while out with her husband. Think she feels anything when she sees him? Perfectly happy marriage right?

Why is Karen wearing progressively heavier eye shadow every week in the office and the lunches she brings me keep getting tastier? Her marriage is pretty great! But damn does she like the eye contact we share sometimes. I'm sure her husband feels fine and she would probably not actually want to ever cheat.

Just this week I had a girl crying because she's losing this other guy by talking to me. She's made it beyond clear there is a massive difference in her attraction to each of us, but she very well may end up moving in with him.

He will be very happy to have been chosen! I wouldn't be. I will avoid this by becoming more attractive than the market. I will meet younger girls with way less experience than I, not as a strategy, but her feeling are a function of her options.

But if you meet a girl with a decent partner count who has enjoyed good sex... There is nothing wrong with that at all. I just want to understand the dynamic as someone who has not even really interacted with many girlfriend quality women yet. I've had some hot lays, but no one compatible yet. When I meet her, I will remember I should meet thirty more before making any decisions.

I know I spam the shit out of this forum and I know that's temporary as my head expands and a lot of this becomes normal and less consuming. But I am really starting to take a more spiritual view where I'm not expecting to solve it or be truly happy in this lifetime.

Like when you have very different girls over in quick succession... It's going to take more lays to sort my brain out. Fat women helped with my Madonna whore complex. They're often real sweet good girls who are incredibly naughty. Now I'm meeting girls with nice bodies sometimes and I can now choke a girl one day, be sensual with another the next... Sometimes I fall in and out of "love" real fast as I connect with flukes. I just haven't had any sort of partnership or activity beyond dates and lounging around talking and fucking in a lover den. Just gotta keep going down the track I guess.

 

[POB]

Some girls, who see you as the "one who got away" are sadly very influenced by you despite being in a relationship. So yeah, somewhere there is an imprint although factually in the long run I guess it doesn't matter that much.

Agree.
But I think they'll always have fond memories of "that guy that got away".
Because It's difficult to let go of it once you've raised the bar physically, even when you know it is the right choice.

 

[ulrich]

I think you’re overthinking it, @Francis.

Trying to understand what goes through the mind of women in very different scenarios to the ones you are meeting is not going to help you accomplish anything at this point.

It is great that you like to discuss and that you want to understand how things are in reality but at this point you’re bordering mental masturbation.

Let the unknowns be unknowns for a time and go out and get some pussy… once you find it, you will see if those concerns were really something useful or just a minor annoyance that you could have simply ignored.

 

[KJ Francis]

I think you’re overthinking it, @Francis.

Trying to understand what goes through the mind of women in very different scenarios to the ones you are meeting is not going to help you accomplish anything at this point.

It is great that you like to discuss and that you want to understand how things are in reality but at this point you’re bordering mental masturbation.

Let the unknowns be unknowns for a time and go out and get some pussy… once you find it, you will see if those concerns were really something useful or just a minor annoyance that you could have simply ignored.

Yeah this is actionable advice I need to take... Do the newbie assignment or something and actually talk to girls, not women.

I am thorough and it pays off though. I will read regulations in full, line by line, before starting to solve things. I will read the manual front to back before turning things on. Not always. I love to feel things with women.

But I am reading advanced relationship theory and harem management from guys like Riccardus who were figuring these things out much further in the journey. I see your point I am not in the moment. But I am glad I started experiencing things like that with women I was totally ok with losing from the start, so I can be off the races like kaida just needed to be let loose. I don't have fear of women, just of approaching. So that may solve quick.

But I've been on an obscene amount of dates, often older women. So I've met divorcees, widows, cancer survivors, heard all about dating for women at different stages of their life. I know I'm meeting the unsuccessful ones only, but it is eye opening.

So I'll probably still read Sperm Wars, but I feel you. Go outside...