On womens' real self vs. ideal self

[Dough]

I just read chase's article here about how people who react with extreme negativity to preferences do so because the way they want to behave is not congruent with their actual behavior. I also read this quote recently elsewhere: "In modern society, people have not integrated their desire for intimacy with their desire for sexuality. Because of this, people are emotionally ambivalent about what they want in a partner, and this results in the coyness required when playing 'the game'".

This quote really stuck with me when combined with chase's description of idealized self being integrated with actual self, because these seem to be the same concept but expressed in differently nuanced ways. It makes me think of a madonna-whore complex rough equivalent for women who are unable to figure out how to get satisfying commitment & satisfying sex from one guy. This led to the following thoughts:


I'm looking for a girl who hasn't been imprinted on and wants 'forever'. Doesn't this all mean that being coy about this preference is a bad thing?
If the girls who react negatively to this preference are the girls with incongruent behavior and a badly integrated sense of intimacy, then they are not the kind of girl that I want anyway because they would make a bad forever-partner. So them auto-rejecting sounds great to me, it saves her time trying to play pretend and it saves me time vetting.

I'm confused about this because I was recommended in the past that the best way to find the sort of girl that I'm looking for isn't to look for a unicorn, but to look for a horse and just use my masculine leading ability to teach it how to be a unicorn. Both of these strategies ("let the girls who would make a poor forever-partner auto-reject" vs. "pick a girl who's got potential and let her come around to your worldview") seem valid. What do you guys think?


I also have an addendum question, at the end of chase's article on the madonna-whore complex here he says quote: "if you want forever, put yourself in an environment where 'forever' is encouraged, and sexual freedom is discouraged and looked down upon." What are some good places for this that would be reasonably compatible with the lifestyle considerations of a canadian? He mentioned the muslim world, but my understanding is that making your life in such a place is not a good idea for an expat white dude so that sounds like a bit of an extreme example intentionally chosen for shock value.

Oh btw chase, if you read this, it would be cool if you fed your teachings into a large language model that we could directly ask questions. Here's one that someone made for trading education for example. It isn't very smart, but it's one hell of a search engine.

 

[ulrich]

I can’t help but feel you’re taking things too literal and I’d like to take a step back and ask you, why do you want “forever”?

Does that mean you want a woman who will remain loyal to you for life?
Why is that so important to you?

There are many ways to find one but it really boils down to both find the right niche and choosing the right woman from within that niche.
Furthermore, you have to consider her reasons… does she want a forever relationship because she values it? Or because she is conditioned to forever being the only thing she knows?

In women, you can get “forever” from both experience and inexperience… and they look and feel completely different.

But what about you?
Is this coming from experience? Inexperience? Idealism?

 

[Dough]

I can’t help but feel you’re taking things too literal and I’d like to take a step back and ask you, why do you want “forever”?

Does that mean you want a woman who will remain loyal to you for life?
Why is that so important to you?

I've tried to figure this out myself in the past. I know of several reasons that could be the cause. I don't think it's any one in particular, likely all of them cumulatively together.

-- I come from 3 generations deep on my mom's side where as far as anyone is aware (wink wink) the wife remained loyal to the husband for their entire lives since highschool. So I might have a genetic predisposition towards wanting it. Note that I only learned of this after I discussed the topic with my own parents after I became an adult, so I know it wasn't an expectation raised into me.
-- Generally in life, when I'm told I can't have something, it just makes me want it even more. This is normal for humans, but I'll often go to extreme lengths far beyond where other people would call it quits. This is an integral part of my personality and I view myself as someone who can figure out how to do things that other people can't typically do. And do people ever love talking about how hard/difficult/impossible 'till death do us apart is.
-- I enjoy a good challenge, and I enjoy knowing how things work at a deep level. I enjoy seeing how rubber meets the road and the process of turning theory into action and outcome. The harder the theory is for me to wrap my head around, the more I enjoy seeing the results.
-- I can't explain it very well, but the whole "you don't own the girl it's just your turn" thing just feels to me like a prostitute. If I just wanted that then I would hire a prostitute, which I don't have any interest in doing. Put flatly, if she isn't mine then I have no interest in her, not even as a sex toy.
-- I'm a "quality over quantity" type of person. This extends to every aspect of my life and deeply into my decision making processes. I wouldn't say that I have expensive tastes though - because oftentimes, the most expensive thing isn't even the best. I can have a ton of fun doing research for 5 hours over what the legitimate best toaster in the entire world is, and then spending a couple days finding one. If one doesn't exist to my satisfaction then I'll find the best parts and learn how to make it myself.
-- I don't have an especially strong sex drive, but I have a very strong romantic drive. I have difficulty empathizing with how men could be so driven to learn seduction just to get their dick wet. But I understand that they probably can't comprehend my own motivations, so live and let live.
-- As an extension of having a strong romantic drive, well, you know.
-- I have an extremely strong internal compass about what is "good" and what is "not good". When I think about how to satisfy my romantic need, 'forever' is at the "this is good" end. Usually it can be redirected when I learn about a topic (because it was misaligned in the first place) but as I've learnt more about seduction and improved my social skills, this preference has only become stronger, not weaker.
-- I have a very long-term time orientation, and I enjoy executing grand, multi-step plans that unfold over the course of months. A woman who isn't going to be with me through thick and thin isn't a woman that I can involve in any of this, and that's a big problem because it's a big part of how I structure my life. This isn't to say that I'm inflexible though. I don't plan out my day-to-day activities or schedule my poop breaks or whatever.
-- Finally, as alluded to earlier, I have a strong sense of ownership. I want my things to be tailored specifically to my own tastes (such as in the toaster example), and once I feel that it belongs to me specifically then I become emotionally invested in things even though they're objects. Amusingly, this also means that I can't get emotionally invested into anything that I don't feel that sense of ownership over.

So I guess I can conclude that I want forever because it tickles my particular psychology in just the right way. I think this covers all the additional questions. Other than the one about experience; to which I can say that my strong personality and ironclad convictions have resulted in me never having a shortage of positive attention from women even back before I started learning seduction, when I had no physical sex appeal.

 

[Chase]

@Dough,

Women reacting negatively to your preferences (as in that article of mine you referenced) is not important unless you are discussing them.

I don’t know why you would be discussing them early on with girls unless you are trying to do a ton of hard screening. Which, given your inexperience, is unwise.

A big problem inexperienced men have WRT getting inexperienced women is that unless they are in some close-knit conservative social circle they are not going to have a lot of access to inexperienced women (who mostly aren’t putting themselves out there very much), and even when they are, are not going to know how to get them. Instead they mostly end up with more outgoing women, who tend to be more experienced.

Your average day game libertine meets (and beds) WAY more inexperienced forever-type women than any romantic guy hanging around waiting to bump into one some way, somehow. But the romantic guy is not out there, so he is not meeting these girls.

If I was you, I would ask myself where in my city, state, country, or world the kinds of women I want to be with congregate in large numbers, pick 3 or 4 such places, and start spending a lot of time there, getting very involved there, become popular there, and flirt with women there, then start asking out the ones who seemed interested in me.

From there I would just focus on going on enough dates with enough “potentials”, while understanding that even in a prime location not every girl I meet is going to meet my full set of standards. Just keep dating until you find the one who does, or until you confirm (from say going out with 10-15 different girls from a given niche) that the place doesn’t actually have the kinds of women you are looking for.

e.g., I don’t know where you are right now, but say you are in a U.S. city… if I had your goals and predilections I would:

1. Frequent all the local churches in my area until I found one with a large group of young female attendees. Then start going there a lot and get as involved in it as I could, joining and eventually hosting group activities where I could meet women from it.
   
   
2. Attend a variety of different classes (Spanish class, acting class, ceramics class, painting class, tennis class, ski class, ballroom dance class, etc.) and look for ones with an abundance of single young women. Then start meeting women there and find out if the type I like are in attendance. If they aren’t, keep trying different classes. If you find one that’s good, go a lot, get increasingly involved, aim to eventually become a teacher yourself if you don’t find a “forever girl” before that.
   
   
3. Look for international meetings and attend these to find some where foreign women from various parts of the world congregate. Talk to them and find out which geographic regions have women more aligned with what you are looking for. Zero in on those types of girls.

You can easily do all this, but it requires activity. The more you want something that is less abundant in your area, the higher the activity level required of you to find it. e.g., if it was 1950s America and there were hundreds of thousands of missing men due to the war and women were desperate to please and land and hold onto a man, you could just drift along and end up in a forever relationship on autopilot. In 2020s America, with an overabundance of men and government/societal support for women running around staying uncommitted, this is a lot harder to find and you need to be willing to work your ass off for it for a few years until you find it.

Of course the better/more fun/more effective route if you ask me is just learning pickup, getting really good at that, picking up lots of girls via day game, having tons of fun with them, all the while screening them, and when you stumble upon a unicorn girl just lock her down.

But as you said, you don’t really have much desire for women, and are just looking for romance, so take the next most effective option and become the super involved guy who is everywhere the “forever” type women congregate.

I have known guys who pursued this strategy, btw. Typically energetic religious guys who were saving themselves for marriage, but they were just active all over the place, in a bunch of places where more conservative / less experienced women congregated. They had their frustrations as well, of course, and didn’t just stumble into girls, but typically after a while they’d all end up with a pretty good girl they were really happy with — but you have to be active.

In a romantic environment where the supply of the kind of woman you are looking for is rare, you must be willing to pay more to find her — and the currency you must pay with is ENERGY: you put more energy into your presentation, more energy into your approaching, more energy into your socializing and activity levels, and more energy into courting and dating more women to find that comparatively rarer diamond in the rough.

Too much work?

Then move somewhere with a much higher supply of such women. Different state, different region, different country etc.

Oh btw chase, if you read this, it would be cool if you fed your teachings into a large language model that we could directly ask questions. Here's one that someone made for trading education for example. It isn't very smart, but it's one hell of a search engine.

Yeah, guys keep saying this.

The idea’s interesting. It’s not clear to me how to do it though; I don’t have access to ChatGPT and all the other chatbots (like GPT4ALL and StableLM) give far inferior results compared to GPT-4 based on comparisons I’m seeing (and even GPT-4 itself is pretty shoddy at actually giving reliable answers for complex human interaction stuff, from all the investigations I’ve seen).

Then of course you have another problem: if guys are going to a chatbot on our site and asking it how to respond to some situation, and it is giving them some shitty, unnuanced, newb-tier answer, they are not going to be thinking, “Well, that’s just because chatbot learning algorithms are still in their infancy.” Instead they are going to say, “Wow, the advice on this Chase Girls website is pretty shitty. I’m going back to Wikihow!”

But yeah, it’s still interesting. I’m hopeful in a few years we might have some very strong and open-source chatbots that can at least answer basic questions. There’s probably an opportunity to fuse human curation with a chatbot too… like listing out 500 basic answers to common questions guys ask, then training the chatbot to either look for an answer that matches the question the guy is asking, or else to reply with, “The answer to that question is more involved than I’m able to get into as a computer program. Would you like to ask on our forum or schedule a consultation with an expert?”

I’d need to know what the market potential is for that before going to the trouble of building it though. I have certainly spent a lot of time building promising-sounding ideas that flopped when we brought them to market. So many things sound like they’d be really, really great… but then you ask people to pay for it and the response is “meh” and you find yourself going, “Dear Lord, that took a lot of time to build, but nobody wants to pay money for it. Holy heck, what am I doing with my life!!!”

Chase

 

[Dough]

Thanks for your time chase, I'll give that a good long think. I really appreciate everything you do. I actually started learning seduction because I wasn't able to find girls that I want, and I figured that it was because I wasn't sexy enough and that they were out of my league. Or that I needed to like, find them at the grocery store or whatever. Cue my surprise when just being sexier doesn't fix this particular problem whatsoever because they're just a niche nowadays.

As far as the LLM goes, you could make it cite a bunch of sources as response to a question rather than trying to apply logic and figure the answer out itself. I think it's well established that LLMs aren't capable of reasoning or critical thinking quite yet. So it would functionally be a search engine to locate relevant articles, forum posts, and courses. Could funnel people into the monetization of the rest of your work in that sense. I think also from an analytics side, knowing what questions are asked to the chatbot could be helpful to get a bead on what questions people want answered but are embarrassed to ask an actual human. But hey when I put it as "just a funny search engine" then I guess it sounds a lot less compelling lmfao.

 

[Chase]

@Dough,

Thanks for your time chase, I'll give that a good long think. I really appreciate everything you do. I actually started learning seduction because I wasn't able to find girls that I want, and I figured that it was because I wasn't sexy enough and that they were out of my league. Or that I needed to like, find them at the grocery store or whatever. Cue my surprise when just being sexier doesn't fix this particular problem whatsoever because they're just a niche nowadays.

Sexiness in and of itself doesn't solve your problem, no.

Being able to approach, attract, and close does. With more reserved girls, on top of that you also need to focus on quickly building lots of trust (similarity is what you need here specifically). Trust is much more important for reserved women than sexiness is.

Because trust is so key for the women you are looking for, you either need to build it through having lots of touch points with them socially, so they get familiar with you in social situations... or else you need to get good at rapidly building trust in your pickups so the women you want are more receptive to your approaches.

A very hot but sexually/romantically reserved woman is more susceptible to "high trust game" than she is to "super sexy guy" game.

Keeping in mind it still must have that romantic/sexual air to it -- you are not just going for "really trustworthy friend" here either...

Chase