FR Oof

[Kvothe]

Getting back into the groove of dates so this one was a little worse in terms of my frame and sexuality.

I had approached this girl direct with really great vibe. She number closed me and had a very dominant vibe-I should have been paying more attention and led better here by number closing at a high point instead of letting the conversation go to where she had to say that she had to leave but to grab her number.

Texting is standard.

We meet at the venue and I give her a hug. She’s dressed in a scrumptious LBD, that shows off her ample cleavage. She’s 23 and sexy and knows it and likes showing off. Makes sense because she’s also the type of person who loves partying until 5AM regularly. We sit down and it’s pretty easy rapport, though it’s very surface level stuff. Throughout the date she’s not compliant physically which is interesting. At some point early on she asks to move seats in the venue (right after a potentially miscalibrated sexual joke)

Me: Do you like dirty martinis?
Her: No I just feel like I’m in the mood for something I don’t like
Me: That sounds so dirty
Her: What?
Me <Go into a short story about a girl I know that hooked up with someone she didn’t really like>

The issue with the above is it just didn’t connect-and I didn’t own my joke. I should have responded.

Her: What do you mean?
Me: I’m just imagining two people at a bar like, “eh I don’t like you that much but I’m kind of in the mood for that, let’s go fuck.”

She has a weird reaction to that then asks us to move seats to a couch with easier table access. It’s still good sitting logistics so I don’t mind and we move.

We get into some decent deep diving, though there’s a small wall I notice in her that I’m not able to figure out what is guarding. We talk about her career change, and how she got into art creatively, a lot of time is spent traveling, but perhaps too much on the “where” of where we went as opposed to the “what happened” and what effects those produced. In retrospect there was a lot of room to build more of a emotional connection there than how I went about doing it.

She finishes her drink very fast, and wants another. I tell her we can go to another venue, but she doesn’t like the ones I suggest. So we stay and order another drink. I’m not sure what to think here. On one hand, she was suggesting a lot of places that I didn’t like, and I was suggesting places she didn’t like, so we opted to stay because we both liked where we were-but it was also her initial ask.

The next drink comes and the conversation focuses a bit more on me. I also ask her how she’s found dating in the city. Honestly, here is where she’s evasive, and I should have pressed more to get more details.

Me: How have you found dating in the city?
Her: Well it’s really easy to get dates, but people here are super non-committal. In Europe it feels like people go through a lot of relationships but are kind of slow to make things physical and then once they do it’s immediately like “ok now we’re dating” and I think I like that more.

I really should have dug more into the conversation here, though the conversation does pop up again later. She also is dating around a lot, and partying a lot, is exploring and figuring things out for herself, so it seems primed for fast sex.

A little later we go to another venue, which I suggest, but then we get there and the line’s really long, so I suggest we go to a spot she had suggested that’s nearby instead because I don’t want to wait in the line.

While walking, she starts messaging on her phone, and I look at her and ask

Me: Everything okay?
Her: Yeah <weird expression>

I’m not sure how to deal with that, because it seemed more like she just doesn’t really talk and walk that much. So she talks and is on her phone more. She does loop me into a bit of an inside joke her and her friends do.

Anyway at the next venue we chat about a bunch of other stuff. And as we’re deciding where to go next we can’t decide, so I pitch wine at mine, and she says:

Me: Or I have some wine at mine
Her: I’m not going to your place. You’re still a stranger.
Me: I was a stranger.
Her: I’m <ethnicity> it just isn’t part of my culture to go to someone’s house on a first date. I don’t have sex on a first date
Me: Who said anything about sex?
Her: It’s heavily implied, I’m not stupid.
Me: Didn’t I just call you an intellectual <callback comment to previous thread>. But it’s fine just an option
Her: Then you shouldn’t have brought it up-it’s distasteful
Me: What? Why?
Her: Ok listen okay. Every week since I’ve moved to the city I’ve been on like 4 dates a week. I’m basically sick of it and almost ready to quit and go celibate.
Me: Celibate is a choice haha. But I don’t think it’s distasteful, but that may also be because my views on sex and relationship is different than most people.
Her: What do you mean?
Me: I think sex is one of those things that fun and exciting.

Note: I really did not reframe this properly. I should have been more clear. What I should have said:

“With me, a lot of the best relationships and experiences I’ve had have been from fast passion, and I think a whirlwind romance can lead to a stronger connection. So I don’t think I’d ever have anything against a woman wanting to go all the way on the first date-if anything, I find it attractive for her to act upon the impulse if the chemistry is there.”

Instead I said the above.

Me: I think sex is one of those things that’s fun and exciting.
Her: Yeah it is, but it’s different for woman.
Me: Yeah, I mean you have the guys who push too hard and don’t read your signals, or who don’t pay attention to how you’re feeling in that moment, or who just don’t actually treat you like a person and objectify you in a way that leaves you feeling bad… Sorry I’m mansplaining it to you, what do you think?
Her: No you said it exactly.
Me: I would never… <look away>
Her: No no, you don’t strike me as a bad person. I just have standards for myself and I abide by it.
Me: No that’s totally fine. It’s more what you said about it being distasteful.
Her: I was joking, I was being sarcastic.

Anyway, I think a lot of bad frames involved here. Mostly due to me not standing my ground and instead falling into her frame. But part of that is because I couldn’t articulate what I wanted to say clearly.

We go back to other subjects. And we’re deciding where to go for the next spot. She wants to go to the place we had given up, and I suggest something else. We disagree, and she says that if I want I can go there and she can go to the other spot (in a kind of joking way).

We walk, and she tries to pull me into going, and I try to pull her into coming. She makes valid reasons for going, and honestly, I want to go, but the main reason I don’t is because it’s very expensive. So eventually I tell her we can go but I can’t afford the drinks there, so if she’s down to skip drinks, I’m down to enjoy a breath of fresh air.

I dislike this frame too. Should have just said not in the mood for more alcohol let’s just enjoy the vibe.

We get there, and it’s a long line, so she asks if I’m down to dip and go to the spot I suggested. She’s basically leading at this point. Bad.

At the last venue we get a spot and chat a bit. There’s a little conversational bit where it seems like she’s hinting at wanting to be kissed so I go for it, and she rebuffs me.

Her: What I don’t kiss people on the first date?
Me: No it’s fine
Her: Are you hurt
Me: No, confused
Her: Why confused?
Me: A little bit yeah. In that case give me your hand
<kisses hand>
Me: <shivers> I feel so naughty

I’m trying to make a joke about it here, but I don’t like it. To be honest reading this all-I don’t like how this entire date went.

Me: No I don’t care, it’s fine
Her: If you don’t like it I understand but it’s the way that I am
Me: If I didn’t like you I would have left after the first drink
Her: Are you shocked about my rule-is it the norm to kiss someone on the first date
Me: I don’t know, I wouldn’t assume anything is the “norm” for anyone. But have you ever kissed someone on the first date
Her: No, it’s not my thing
Me: Have you ever had a one night stand
Her: No it’s not my thing
Me: How come?
Her: For me, I have to trust someone first, and I’m not saying I don’t trust you, but I just met you. I’m getting to know you, and I don’t do anything physical until I know someone. It’s <ethnicity of me>
Me: Got it
Her: Any follow ups? <said playfully>
Me: What would you do if you met someone who you did feel incredibly sexually attracted to? Like imagine you’re in a room and you meet someone who the sexual magnetism is just palpable
Her: Well that’s different and an exceptional case. That doesn't mean the non-exceptional people I'm not sexually attracted to, but it would probably be a once in a lifetime thing.
Me: What do you like?
Her: I don't know. I would have to experience it to know. I'm very open minded, so I get along with a lot of people.
Me: Well so do I. But what does that mean?
Her: I vibe with people. You can only vibe with people on a first date, it's not a deep connection.
Me: You can't. <side note... why would I say this>
Her: You can, it's just an anomaly. And I don't lend myself to that very easily.
Me: Yeah you do have your guard up. But you're right. Some you just feel incredibly connected right off the bat
Her: Is that how you feel about me?
Me: I have a guard up because you have a guard up. I would rather not have a guard up, but... never mind it's too dirty
Her: No tell me
Me: If we did have that, I'd probably take you to the bathroom right now

I don’t think really much happens from here besides the fact that when we leave she says she wants to go inside, then just leads to the elevator and we bounce.

I go for a kiss one more time, and am rebuffed, but I think I don’t come across as hurt.

Overall thoughts are that my frame was awful. I need to be better about that, and make sure that I am willing to reframe, even if it means losing the girl.

Would love to get feedback on where exactly I lost my “leading” of the girl. That’s the bit I’m confused by because it kind of feels like I never had it.

 

[Bismarck]

Hey man sometimes the chick is just not right for you. I wouldn’t beat myself up too much about it.

We can get a bit misled just because she’s a hot piece of ass.

I had dates where girls were dominant and unpleasant. It comes with the territory.

You can’t pork ‘em all.

PS
Sure, maybe it was too soon to bring up sex, or maybe there would have been a smoother way of transitioning into it, or maybe there was a mismatch between that and your vibe. Hard to tell without being there.

I get the feeling that since you opened her direct bringing up sex verbally may have been overkill since she framed it as you asking her for smash (chasing).

 

[TomInHo]

Interesting report @Kvothe but from my read on things I think there were a few misunderstandings that hurt your ability to connect with this chick

I had approached this girl direct with really great vibe. She number closed me and had a very dominant vibe-I should have been paying more attention and led better here by number closing at a high point instead of letting the conversation go to where she had to say that she had to leave but to grab her number.

Meh.. I see nothing wrong here

The chick liked you and number closed you so ain't a big deal. See it as an huge indicator of interest

Me: Do you like dirty martinis?
Her: No I just feel like I’m in the mood for something I don’t like
Me: That sounds so dirty
Her: What?
Me <Go into a short story about a girl I know that hooked up with someone she didn’t really like>

Yeah the joke seems a bit misplaced here but no biggie. Could just change topics and make it seem like nothing happened

We get into some decent deep diving, though there’s a small wall I notice in her that I’m not able to figure out what is guarding. We talk about her career change, and how she got into art creatively, a lot of time is spent traveling, but perhaps too much on the “where” of where we went as opposed to the “what happened” and what effects those produced. In retrospect there was a lot of room to build more of a emotional connection there than how I went about doing it.

Well it's good you noticed that she is a bit resistant but she is about to tell you why in a second

The next drink comes and the conversation focuses a bit more on me. I also ask her how she’s found dating in the city. Honestly, here is where she’s evasive, and I should have pressed more to get more details.

Me: How have you found dating in the city?
Her: Well it’s really easy to get dates, but people here are super non-committal. In Europe it feels like people go through a lot of relationships but are kind of slow to make things physical and then once they do it’s immediately like “ok now we’re dating” and I think I like that more.

The sub comm here is that she is looking for commitment here. Implying that she wants to take it slow on getting physical because she believes that's the best way to date someone

That's why she said she likes how people do it in Europe, implying she is not a fan of casual sex

Using this information could have calibrated your sex talk better about how you need a connection for sex, you're picky and blah blah blah... So that she FEELS you're on the same page but sex is still on the table if it feels right

While walking, she starts messaging on her phone, and I look at her and ask

This is a so so sign. She may have been mentally checking out because the connection is meh, but i'm just speculating and wasn't there

Anyway at the next venue we chat about a bunch of other stuff. And as we’re deciding where to go next we can’t decide, so I pitch wine at mine, and she says
Me: Or I have some wine at mine
Her: I’m not going to your place. You’re still a stranger.
Me: I was a stranger.
Her: I’m <ethnicity> it just isn’t part of my culture to go to someone’s house on a first date. I don’t have sex on a first date
Me: Who said anything about sex?
Her: It’s heavily implied, I’m not stupid.
Me: Didn’t I just call you an intellectual <callback comment to previous thread>. But it’s fine just an option
Her: Then you shouldn’t have brought it up-it’s distasteful
Me: What? Why?
Her: Ok listen okay. Every week since I’ve moved to the city I’ve been on like 4 dates a week. I’m basically sick of it and almost ready to quit and go celibate.
Me: Celibate is a choice haha. But I don’t think it’s distasteful, but that may also be because my views on sex and relationship is different than most people.
Her: What do you mean?
Me: I think sex is one of those things that fun and exciting.

See

She is still calling you a stranger. And she is implying she doesn't have sex with strangers hence at this point the lay isn't quite there

But she also offered a reason for her objection. Because she says she has been dating a lot, might have had a few hookups here and there but nothing materialized into anything substantial

So her wanting to go celibate is her thinking that might be the best way to get what she wants... a consistent relationship

Note: I really did not reframe this properly. I should have been more clear. What I should have said:

“With me, a lot of the best relationships and experiences I’ve had have been from fast passion, and I think a whirlwind romance can lead to a stronger connection. So I don’t think I’d ever have anything against a woman wanting to go all the way on the first date-if anything, I find it attractive for her to act upon the impulse if the chemistry is there.”

Yeah that could work

Instead I said
Me: I think sex is one of those things that’s fun and exciting.
Her: Yeah it is, but it’s different for woman.
Me: Yeah, I mean you have the guys who push too hard and don’t read your signals, or who don’t pay attention to how you’re feeling in that moment, or who just don’t actually treat you like a person and objectify you in a way that leaves you feeling bad… Sorry I’m mansplaining it to you, what do you think?
Her: No you said it exactly.
Me: I would never… <look away>
Her: No no, you don’t strike me as a bad person. I just have standards for myself and I abide by it.
Me: No that’s totally fine. It’s more what you said about it being distasteful.
Her: I was joking, I was being sarcastic.

When she said it's different for women it would have been wise to get her to expand more

"Different? Women don't find sex with someone they attracted to fun and exciting?" To get her to flesh out her objection some more and allow you to calibrate better

I personally wouldn't have kept going laying frames that may not be relevant for her. Want to set sexual frames that are enticing to her that she wants to jump in and not force frame it

Anyway, I think a lot of bad frames involved here. Mostly due to me not standing my ground and instead falling into her frame. But part of that is because I couldn’t articulate what I wanted to say clearly.

I don't think it's because you didn't stand your ground. I think the frames were bad because you weren't truly listening to what she was telling you

Me personally I use what the other person wants then use that information to frame the interaction that if she follows what I want then she can also have a good experience... win/win solutions

At the last venue we get a spot and chat a bit. There’s a little conversational bit where it seems like she’s hinting at wanting to be kissed so I go for it, and she rebuffs me.

I’m trying to make a joke about it here, but I don’t like it. To be honest reading this all-I don’t like how this entire date went.

Me: No I don’t care, it’s fine
Her: If you don’t like it I understand but it’s the way that I am
Me: If I didn’t like you I would have left after the first drink
Her: Are you shocked about my rule-is it the norm to kiss someone on the first date
Me: I don’t know, I wouldn’t assume anything is the “norm” for anyone. But have you ever kissed someone on the first date
Her: No, it’s not my thing
Me: Have you ever had a one night stand
Her: No it’s not my thing
Me: How come?
Her: For me, I have to trust someone first, and I’m not saying I don’t trust you, but I just met you. I’m getting to know you, and I don’t do anything physical until I know someone. It’s <ethnicity of me>

Yeah... pretty much falls in line with all the other stuff I was talking about earlier about framing. Not surprised she is doubling down now because it seems like both of you are on completely different pages

Me: Got it
Her: Any follow ups? <said playfully>
Me: What would you do if you met someone who you did feel incredibly sexually attracted to? Like imagine you’re in a room and you meet someone who the sexual magnetism is just palpable
Her: Well that’s different and an exceptional case. That doesn't mean the non-exceptional people I'm not sexually attracted to, but it would probably be a once in a lifetime thing.

So pretty much she just told you that if she met a guy that made her FEEL the right things she would hook up with him fast. Most women are like this anyways so not surprised she is saying this

Me: What do you like?
Her: I don't know. I would have to experience it to know. I'm very open minded, so I get along with a lot of people.
Me: Well so do I. But what does that mean?
Her: I vibe with people. You can only vibe with people on a first date, it's not a deep connection.

Pretty much telling you she wants "connection" for sex to happen.

Personally from the stuff she was saying earlier I would have been sexualizing a lot on the frame of connection and chemistry. Because she was giving a lot of tells that is want she wants in her ideal guy

Would have sexually prized that I need chemistry, connection and also very selective. And when those qualities align and desire between both parties are strong, time is almost irrelevant. Because a lot of my best relationships started with whirlwind romances

So anticipating the objection from her sub comms and demonstrating I may be the guy for her

Me: You can't. <side note... why would I say this>
Her: You can, it's just an anomaly. And I don't lend myself to that very easily.
Me: Yeah you do have your guard up. But you're right. Some you just feel incredibly connected right off the bat
Her: Is that how you feel about me?
Me: I have a guard up because you have a guard up. I would rather not have a guard up, but... never mind it's too dirty
Her: No tell me
Me: If we did have that, I'd probably take you to the bathroom right now

Oh well

Not saying you could have laid this girl on the first meet but do think you could have set better frames to increase your chances of it happening or you seeing her again

But keep us posted on what happens after because this looks pretty interesting

 

[Lobo]

I think it is a vibe problem.

Like i think you were focused on changing her mind on a lot of things, but i think it's her state that had to change first.

maybe it's a social frame issue as well? not sure why she kept bringing up her ethnicity like it was some sort of gold standard. Also she really wanted to go to that expensive spot. Did she want you to comp her drinks?

also if shes a party chick she prob needs a shit ton of emotional stimulation, which i think points towards her being on her phone.

besides that, not sure. i once had a date with a girl that was determined on leading and I'm not sure how to seduce these types, and personally it just turns me off.

i think the main thing with these frame grabby chicks is that you just cant be reactive at all. need to hold your frame.

So i think you were reactive at some points. like during the kiss part i think it would be better to dodge her question because there's no way you win answering that question because even when you say no you still seem hurt and u bring more attention to the fact she just resisted you putting you in a lower sexual frame.

but tbh no clue how you could optimally respond to that. Maybe you just take the frame and politically maneuver the attention away from that and indirectly frame that moment as insignificant.

she was the one trying to blow it up and corner you into this low value frame by asking if you were hurt.

"are you butthurt"

look into the distance as if you were thinking
" you know... one of my friends... recently told me something that.. she read on a woman's magazine about lesbian relationships, and this made me think about that

so..."

use the curiosity to distract her and then yap on that and work to build compliance and comfort.

now that I've dived into this more, this circles back to what I thought about in the start.

she keeps announcing her frame, and you kept feeding it attention, which makes it real.

like whenever she gives a BS frame, look away, hit her with the long pause to make it seem like you thought about what she said. then go into a "you know"

then direct her attention to where you want it to be. it's like the matrix, the spoon isn't real.

what's good is that she's telling you the exact frames you need to set in order to seduce her. just have to do it indirectly so it doesn't become a direct frame battle.

like pace and lead.

"i dont kiss on the first date"

here she is indirectly giving you a win condition. you have to get her to ditch her rigid stance and make her more open to possibility.

"respect(with a head nod) i think it's incredibly important to know exactly what you want, especially in a city like this where... anything can happen.

and so really... i think you just have to trust your gut, and listen to how you feeeel... in the moment - so that you only end up getting exactly what you want, and you live your life the way you want to live it".

say this with deep conviction and i know it will hit.

from here you can let her say her piece and then transition to how listening to this gut instinct is how connections are made and then you can describe what that feels like.

you can also calibrate it to her by giving her a dhv story you had where started off the night with your friends in a super analytical mood because of work and how shitty that was but then xyz happened and started to go with the flow and have an amazing time with your friends(build this more) and then ask her if she's ever felt that before with a night out with her friends.

at this point, you've suffucated her frame without making it aware that that was your intention because you said stuff that resonated. later on in the seduction, she may bring it up again, or if she agreed with some of these frames, she may be more inclined to ditch her "rule" and go with the flow, provided you've put her in a good state

 

[Kvothe]

@TomInHo I love all of your reframes. This is definitely a huge weakness in myself-figuring out frames in the moment, and responding to a girl in a way that I'm actually listening to her and responding. I think I could have laid her honestly, but lost it.

The sub comm here is that she is looking for commitment here. Implying that she wants to take it slow on getting physical because she believes that's the best way to date someone

That's why she said she likes how people do it in Europe, implying she is not a fan of casual sex

Using this information could have calibrated your sex talk better about how you need a connection for sex, you're picky and blah blah blah... So that she FEELS you're on the same page but sex is still on the table if it feels right

fantastic tips. My calibration needs to get better for sure.

See

She is still calling you a stranger. And she is implying she doesn't have sex with strangers hence at this point the lay isn't quite there

But she also offered a reason for her objection. Because she says she has been dating a lot, might have had a few hookups here and there but nothing materialized into anything substantial

So her wanting to go celibate is her thinking that might be the best way to get what she wants... a consistent relationship

Yeah building comfort is something I need to work on-which I think is connected to the not actually listening to what she's saying.

When she said it's different for women it would have been wise to get her to expand more

"Different? Women don't find sex with someone they attracted to fun and exciting?" To get her to flesh out her objection some more and allow you to calibrate better

I personally wouldn't have kept going laying frames that may not be relevant for her. Want to set sexual frames that are enticing to her that she wants to jump in and not force frame it

Need to work on this a lot. And also figuring out when to have her expand a frame, vs when to ignore it (like @Lobo mentioned about BS frames).

Pretty much telling you she wants "connection" for sex to happen.

Personally from the stuff she was saying earlier I would have been sexualizing a lot on the frame of connection and chemistry. Because she was giving a lot of tells that is want she wants in her ideal guy

Would have sexually prized that I need chemistry, connection and also very selective. And when those qualities align and desire between both parties are strong, time is almost irrelevant. Because a lot of my best relationships started with whirlwind romances

So anticipating the objection from her sub comms and demonstrating I may be the guy for her

Sigh frustrating in hindsight, but really great. I got to be able to actually hear what she wants. Romantic blank slate as Chase wrote.

 

[Marty]

Having listened to you being interviewed on the podcast and gotten to know your voice, it’s much nicer reading your FRs now, because I can better imagine the interaction described.

 

[Skills]

The issue with the above is it just didn’t connect-and I didn’t own my joke. I should have responded.

Good replies from lobo and thominho......Nobody has a perfect record on comedy nor comedian themselves, jokes will boom, no matter what.... If it booms, you change the subject "anyways, blahblah" if you fucked up in the joke and is gross just like gm just kidding anyways, if a girl ask you to repeat, not important me being silly..... now for the future you could have just say in a sexy voice "oh really" barry white voice (which you have).... the thing is it was too early on the date(more of a timing issue even if miss calibrated joke than the actual misscalibration).... I personally no matter what time on the night and this will sound like total mental masturbation, but i fucked soooooooooooo many dates, that this is what works for me...

i personally even if i night and coffee shop is closed, i rather meet in a coffee shop/or babba/icecream, even if me and her are not drinking coffee or getting anything (the meet an greet), and my goal is not to seduce, impress or anything, just to meet her, hug ok (i personally just say hi and kiss on the cheek) thank you for coming? did you have problems finding the place?, no compliments, no puppy bowl eyes, no excitement, no attempt of jokes, seduction, flirtiness, nothing as poker as possible, even if you are tempted to do game i would not do it, and then walk a bit to the actual bar cause that way as we are walking if there is any anxiety, awkwardness, etc... on both on your parts, no only the girl, with the tiny walk and the meh interaction can only go up from there... Also the walk will make her mood improve and yours, So i would not have done the joke and story at that point personally, i know it sounds like mental masturbation but i am telling you, for me it make difference this approach (i discover it accidentally)..

In the other venue post walk is when i start doing any type of flirting, deep diving (if that is your thing) and then gauging with micro escalations.....

She finishes her drink very fast, and wants another. I tell her we can go to another venue, but she doesn’t like the ones I suggest. So we stay and order another drink. I’m not sure what to think here. On one hand, she was suggesting a lot of places that I didn’t like, and I was suggesting places she didn’t like, so we opted to stay because we both liked where we were-but it was also her initial ask.

there was no reason to change venues at the point she requested the next drink (i did not get that), and when you change venue she should not go were the next venue is you are leading to where you want to go, and from drinks should be idially some type of isolation place were is intimate when you are in date, no point on going from one bar to another...(again my take)

The next drink comes and the conversation focuses a bit more on me. I also ask her how she’s found dating in the city. Honestly, here is where she’s evasive, and I should have pressed more to get more details.

Me: How have you found dating in the city?
Her: Well it’s really easy to get dates, but people here are super non-committal. In Europe it feels like people go through a lot of relationships but are kind of slow to make things physical and then once they do it’s immediately like “ok now we’re dating” and I think I like that more.

^ here she was telling you what to address like Thominho says she was telling you right here what to address and to take care off and address (but to be honest if you addressed it like tominho says and it was not there and she was no complying) i would have done a next meet...but this was the main issue imho...that was a big window to do secon gen.

While walking, she starts messaging on her phone, and I look at her and ask

^ women sometimes do that, her females or family checking out if they are ok on the date, or group chats, or work, i just let them....

Me: Everything okay?
Her: Yeah <weird expression>

^ i would not have asked that... just let them and wait till they finish...

Anyway at the next venue we chat about a bunch of other stuff. And as we’re deciding where to go next we can’t decide, so I pitch wine at mine

^ i personally would not have done that, is like hail marry! you did not have the compliance, the escalation etc... She interpreted lets go back to mine and fuck....

After that all working on negative compliance, it was not going to work... you selling why she should go to your house with stranger, meh...

l her we can go but I can’t afford the drinks there,

brah! at least you know that you should just have made some bs excuse but not talk about "too expensive there" lol

At the last venue we get a spot and chat a bit. There’s a little conversational bit where it seems like she’s hinting at wanting to be kissed so I go for it, and she rebuffs me.

Her: What I don’t kiss people on the first date?
Me: No it’s fine
Her: Are you hurt
Me: No, confused
Her: Why confused?
Me: A little bit yeah. In that case give me your hand
<kisses hand>
Me: <shivers> I feel so naughty

brah! i don't understand how a girl hint to be kiss you go for the kiss and then ^ what was that?? you either missread the body language or went about kissing the wrong way...

anyways she thought you were butthurt cause she didn't kiss you bad....

I personally tldr:

- would not have try any game in first venue like i said.. deep dives, jokes, stories
-would have doing second gen address the Europe vs american dating with second gen....
- would not have gone to other drinking type venues after second venue but more for some type of you and her a bit more isolation venue park, beach, more secluded stuff...
-would only have invited home as hail marry (if i know i would never see her again) or would have cut date to another date....

as thominho said does not mean you have gotten laid anyways... Review some of these and field test:

How to increase your chances if the lay is not there on the meet

Disclaimer.- this will be a long comprehensive post but it will totally help you big time, so read it and understand it... Most of the dudes including seducers are still living in the wrong century, or flat out they are not out there gaming or are pretty much kj, because i really don't...

www.skilledseducer.com

Date Plans - The complete guide on How to date - Dating dynamics 101

Why listen to me on this, well i was never good at dating, i would either do ons or long texting (second gen/grandmaster) setting up sexual encounters or i would replicate what happened in the club a second time by doing a club date (since I am the highest value guy in the dance floor made...

www.skilledseducer.com

The difference between plausible deniability and bait and switch and when to use both.....

Alright guys, i already explain this in a thread of i Believe @Shawn but yesterday a dude in my crew face the same issue, so i will explain here for everyone, and if it happens i just can be lazy and link this post.... 1st what is plausible deniability (i kind of like this one from urban...

www.skilledseducer.com

The Complete guide to Physical game

Guys i decided to write this post cause if you are out on the field you notice social dynamics have changed a bit, we are going back to the future, in other words things are trending back to the past from clothes (baggy clothes from 90, shorts with sneaker showing socks from 80s etc...).... So...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[Kvothe]

@Skills

Thanks for the advice. It really was just bad, bad, bad game on my part. Lacking leadership, calibration, and just general wisdom.

Will do better in the future.

Think the main things besides the obvious general ones is to listen to her because she's going to tell you her roadmap that she needs, and I really got to pay attention to that.