Opening - is there a middle ground

[greenleaf]

In my experience, the main thing that determines whether the opener will 'work', is whether she is somewhat attracted to you, and also, she just happens to be a fairly social, friendly girl who isn't wierded out by strangers saying 'hi' like so many seem to be

The other thing that is important (on the sets that are receptive) is whether your opener is more of a conversation starter rather than an 'opener' (like 'hi', is an opener, but it's hardly a conversation starter - Whereas opening her by talking about the fight outside is more of a 'conversation starter')


When I see people ask for advice on opening, it's usually 'just say 'hi'. People do that. Then she looks at you blankly. Then you ask her name and what she's up too/what she does for a job or something (or even make an 'assumption' about her instead as per PUA wisdom), and it tends to die, 9 times out of 10. But the 1 girl who likes you lets you hook and it can sometimes lead somewhere)


The other half use scripted opinion openers and routines. Lots of people claim that this stuff makes you look a bit odd in some cultures, and also complain about how inauthentic and 'fake' it is and they use this as the reason why people get rejected in field reports (I saw someone get berated in an FR recently for his use of mysterymethod style game - people were like ''No wonder she rejected you fast. You were just rattling off your autistic script and routine!!'' etc)


Is there a middle ground? Maybe some clever dude here tends to use certain openers that aren't necessarily a long script or routine, but tends to lend itself to opening up an actual (fun?) conversation as opposed to just being an opener

Lets say you want to open these 2 girls
https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/news...e331e8d6c013316f7b38b83cb525f58e.fit-760w.jpg
(I know they're not hot but whatever)

What is your opener? What is your follow up? And what is your follow-up to the follow up?!! (because girls in the UK don't seem to hook easily at ALL unless she is super social and is attracted)

 

[Velasco]

Is there a middle ground? Maybe some clever dude here tends to use certain openers that aren't necessarily a long script or routine, but tends to lend itself to opening up an actual (fun?) conversation as opposed to just being an opener

The middle ground is a situational opener. Which is how I open ALL girls.

As I said in my previous comment:

I'm Unable To Talk To Girl In Nightclubs; Can TRE Help Me?

I'm unable to talk to girls when i go clubbing. I'm unable to talk even to girls who hover near me. I've had this problem for years now. The weird thing is still really enjoy going clubbing. I LOVE going out to nightclubs even with this problem I've been going out 2-7 times a week now for 6...

www.skilledseducer.com

Look at whatever it is she is currently doing/wearing, then think to yourself. what would be something that would make me and probably the girl laugh/intrigued based on what she's currently doing.

So in this situation, I would hover to blonde girl's right. looking directly forward, as I'm about to get myself a drink. Then turn my head to the left and give black hair (my target), this look

(1:08), then tap blonde girl's right shoulder smile while we briefly make eye contact, then lean into her right ear and whisper as I look at black hair, "your friend right here is amazing kisser...but don't tell her I told you that" as I back away before she gets a chance to ask me a question, to order my drink. I'll approach them shortly a little while later and I'd expect either 1) her friend has told my target by this point what I said and she'll go, "hey how do you know I'm an "amazing" kisser?" - which'll lead to a conversation about that or, her friend never told my target what I said and she'll go, "hey what did you tell my friend?" - which'll lead to a conversation about that...

 

[greenleaf]

I would hover to blonde girl's right. looking directly forward, as I'm about to get myself a drink. Then turn my head to the left and give black hair (my target), this look..then tap blonde girl's right shoulder smile while we briefly make eye contact, then lean into her right ear and whisper as I look at black hair, "your friend right here is amazing kisser...but don't tell her I told you that" as I back away before she gets a chance to ask me a question, to order my drink. I'll approach them shortly a little while later and I'd expect either 1) her friend has told my target by this point what I said and she'll go, "hey how do you know I'm an "amazing" kisser?" - which'll lead to a conversation about that or, her friend never told my target what I said and she'll go, "hey what did you tell my friend?" - which'll lead to a conversation about that..

Is that how you always open 2 sets? What about a girl on her own?

I don't mind your example, and i've done lots of cheeky/gimmiky opens like that myself (including silly roleplay openers and stuff too) but my problem is that they still suffer the same issue - i.e they work brilliantly if the girls is a fun/sociable girl who is attracted to me, but otherwise, it can get reaction where I feel like I've quickly fell into the 'weird guy' category lol. Also the kissing thing is sexual and kinda direct (even if being playful) which again seems a sure fire way of creeping girls out if you aren't her type. But yeah I do like 'playful' openers. If the girl likes you, they tend to lead the convo in the desired direction super fast too. (like how I've opened girls with marriage roleplays and telling them I love them and stuff. Lead to fast hook-ups before, but also some pretty rough rejections haha)

her friend has told my target by this point what I said and she'll go, "hey how do you know I'm an "amazing" kisser?" - which'll lead to a conversation about that or, her friend never told my target what I said and she'll go, "hey what did you tell my friend?" - which'll lead to a conversation about that..

Yeah, I can imagine them giving them reactions (like responding to your re-approach like that) if they thought you were hot, but otherwise what tends to happen is just they look at each other and either clam up or walk away.

Maybe i'm looking for a magic bullet that doesn't exist. (a way to 'hook' girls who simply don't like talking to strangers (as seems common here), aren't attracted, and have zero interest in getting into a convo with you).

I feel it needs to:

Not show intent. At all! Even playfully (otherwise she'll instant reject you unless she thinks you're hot).

Be engaging and fun.

Maybe be 'Quirky' without being 'weird'. (I had high hopes for opinion openers initially, but with testing they have not been good for me in general. No better than 'who are you!!??'' and then asking their name/age etc. They simply don't care about the opinion openers from testing so ofar lol)

Seem spontaneous.

I guess the best examples are 'situational/observational openers' BUT in the RARE occasion when there's something interesting and fun to comment on, like 2 girls having a fight in front of us or whatever. But one can't wait until something odd happens before you open her, really. Obviously you can always try to force one, but it likely won't land. (an observational opener about the music being played or whatever)

I'm kind of mainly talking about earlier in the night before it's manic. Once it's late, I think the theory is amplified (no opener will work to even get the girl too ENGAGE even in polite convo if she's not into you and all openers will work if she is)
But earlier in the night, I feel like a good percentage of the rejections are just more to do with them not knowing how to talk to strangers/find it weird to be approached etc (especially in England) and that there's probably almost an ideal, semi-scripted opener that would help with them sets

Anyone else want to share their openers and transitions?

I'm obviously especially interested in hearing from fellow Brits


ps - I might try your 'kissing' opener a few times tonight for fun, although I have an almost msytic feel for this stuff and think I know what will happen! haha

 

[Velasco]

Is that how you always open 2 sets? What about a girl on her own?

No. what I open with depends on what the girl is doing or wearing. Whether she's talking with her friend at the bar, standing in line to use the restroom, in the coat check line, dancing with a chode, sitting alone texting somebody...then I'll think to myself: based on what's she's currently doing, what can I say to her that would make ME laugh (and probably the girl in return....she may not laugh or get what I say, but I have no control over that).

they work brilliantly if the girls is a fun/sociable girl who is attracted to me, but otherwise, it can get reaction where I feel like I've quickly fell into the 'weird guy' category lol.

I don't have any control whether any one girl is physically attracted to me or not. So if she puts me in her 'weird guy' category, for telling her something that makes me laugh. why get upset over it. Am I gonna change who I am (my sense of humor, the way I like to dress, etc.,) just to please this one girl who doesn't like it? or am I gonna lol, and then look for a girl who does find my sense of humor silly. There's no way for you to know whether or not any one girl is gonna find your retarded opener funny or not, until you've approached her.

the kissing thing is sexual and kinda direct (even if being playful) which again seems a sure fire way of creeping girls out if you aren't her type.

Maybe its direct. I don't view openers as direct or indirect. My only criteria for opening is: does it make me laugh. and that can be direct or indirect. Like one of my favorite openers on girls on the phone is, "are you texting your husband?" Now the implication of that opener is, that I want to know whether or not she's taken, so that I can hit on her. Which would be fall under the "direct" opener category. but really I just said that because it's silly to me, and it makes the overwhelming majority of girls laugh and defend themselves.

in the RARE occasion when there's something interesting and fun to comment on, like 2 girls having a fight in front of us or whatever. But one can't wait until something odd happens before you open her, really. Obviously you can always try to force one, but it likely won't land. (an observational opener about the music being played or whatever)

there's probably almost an ideal, semi-scripted opener that would help with them sets

It's about 6 over there in the UK, yeah? Alright, I want you to think about the most common things you see girls doing in bars:

examples...girl:

• wearing a familiar perfume scent
• wearing/not wearing a coat
• dressed in very stereotypical UK outfit
• doesn't look British
• sitting alone
• ordering a drink
• standing in line to use the restroom
• holding two drinks in her hand
• dancing like a maniac
• dancing with a really poor dancer
• looking around the club
• walking around the club

you can think of more but these are just a few examples. Now for each one, think about a couple of things that would make you laugh. These will be your default situational openers for when you spot a girl you're interested in performing any of these actions. So that you don't stumble, "fuck I don't know what to say to her". As you get into a good flow state (warming up), you'll be more able to think of things you find funny in the moment, that aren't in your default openers list.

 

[HeartRipper]

Anyone else want to share their openers and transitions?

A situational opener that will work in all instances was one I learned from Vadim at Honest Sigalz. It especially worked for me in daygame especially (since until recently, I have been working on my daygame more than night).
It works with commenting on anything attached to the girl. Something like:
"Hey girl with the long blonde hair..."
Or
"Hey, girl with a full drink in her hand..."
Or
"Hey, girl with the brown shoes and tight pants..."
Really anything about her. It doesn't have to be impressive or even accurate.
You can then follow it up playfully or immediately switch to something else once you have her attention.
Worked for me every time.

 

[Space]

Depends on whether she is a Yes, a No, or a Maybe girl to you. What's a Yes, a No, or a Maybe girl? Lot's of discussion of it in this topic but it seems Upper Intermediate to Advanced guys are struggling with Maybe girls, too And I'm not Upper Intermediate to Advanced.

If it's two girlfriends, you literally have to seduce both. The girlfriend of the girl you like more shouldn't cockblock you. At least this is how it is at my level.

As long as she is a Yes girl, here's what to say:

Spoiler alert: it doesn't matter. It's the first video of YouTube's most popular dating advice channel. With 1.3 million subs.

When I see people ask for advice on opening, it's usually 'just say 'hi'. People do that. Then she looks at you blankly. Then you ask her name and what she's up too/what she does for a job or something (or even make an 'assumption' about her instead as per PUA wisdom), and it tends to die, 9 times out of 10. But the 1 girl who likes you lets you hook and it can sometimes lead somewhere)


The other half use scripted opinion openers and routines. Lots of people claim that this stuff makes you look a bit odd in some cultures, and also complain about how inauthentic and 'fake' it is and they use this as the reason why people get rejected in field reports (I saw someone get berated in an FR recently for his use of mysterymethod style game - people were like ''No wonder she rejected you fast. You were just rattling off your autistic script and routine!!'' etc)


Is there a middle ground?

Seems like I'm not really any of your two categories. With all the above information I still like to follow the procedure of a guy called 60 Years Of Challenge in the community. You said about the 1st guy he says hi, asks her name, etc. I'm more like introducing myself, holding out my hand to her to shake it gauging how long she takes my hand. It's called "milking the intro".

Besides just saying anything I also do situational stuff because why not? For example this is not situational for the given interaction but situational for the time of year. I simply say I wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas, hi, my name is Space. And you can go from there. Even on the fucking public transport it worked.

You said you are from the UK. That's a weird island for me. Even if she probably is a "yes" girl to me she probably weirds me out. That island is so strange to me. UK girls in general are the strangest to me. Much stranger than US girls. I'm from Continental Europe. Yeah, it's my problem I know. But high level forum guys from the US similarly can't handle European girls so it's whatever you are used to I guess.

 

[greenleaf]

Thanks for the replies:

So last night me and my 3 wings (I showed them this thread lol) went out and literally burnt down a new town we were gaming in the for night. We made an ungodly number of approaches, experimenting with all kinds of things.

It kind of cemented a few theories for me.

Number 1 being that the time of the night seems super important here. If it's early and the girls aren't drunk yet, even a good looking guy with good game seems to basically get ignored. I sent in my best looking wing loads of times and he was talking girls who were like brick walls at 8pm, but was having hot girls throwing themselves at him with the same openers and game at 11pm.

I think I made about 30 opens myself last night. First 5 sets or so were all early and they were all awkward because the girls just weren't contributing. They kind of look at each other as if to say 'what the hell is going on?!!' haha. No matter the opener/transition. But by like 11pm I opened the 3 hottest girls in the bar (whilst my friends wings were all outside smoking) and they were super receptive and friendly and the set was going well but some dude I know kind of ruined it. I wasn't able to really 'flirt' or make it man-to-woma, though. Wasn't sure how and but mainly I didn't feel like the timing was right as I didn't feel like they were into me, but they were laughing lots and it was a fun interaction.

 

[Velasco]

MAYBE = receptive.
YES = sexual attracted receptive girl.
NO = unreceptive.

I didn't feel like they were into me, but they were laughing lots and it was a fun interaction.

If they weren't into you, then they would've told you to fuck off/ignored you. So here they were receptive to you, but not sexually attracted. Which makes setting a sexual frame (verbal) to the interaction necessary.

With YES girls its NOT necessary because they're already sexually into you. You can just escalate physically (and non-verbally) with them while you talk about boring shit/logistics.

I wasn't able to really 'flirt' or make it man-to-woma, though. Wasn't sure how and but mainly I didn't feel like the timing was right

This is why I made this thread:

Transitions - Transitions into demonstrating SNL traits

Here's a little something to help some of you guys take your game to the next level. When gaming, one of the things I do post hook is try to demonstrate as many traits of my self that are conductive to Single Night Lays. I simply name them SNL traits. These can be showing her how you have high...

www.skilledseducer.com

so that you don't need the "right timing" (all you need is to be past the hook point, which with these girls you were) to introduce these gambits. The questions you ask to transition into setting sexual frames can be asked at ANY moment with ANY girl:

• "you live here or you visiting? How long have you lived here for?" - this is the first question I ask, which will eventually lead to me sharing sex stories.
• "so where’s your boyfriend? oh i thought that one guy you were talking to was your boyfriend lol." - this is the first question I ask, which will lead to me talking about my standards and my values: being spontaneous, constantly doing new and exciting stuff.
• "So I'm actually curious. What’s usually the type of guy you go for? or actually is there a type of guy who you’d never go for?" - first question I ask which will lead to me a conversation about my (and her) favorite sex position.
• "Damn wow you have really nice soft skin. Have you always had skin like this?" - question I ask which will lead to me setting an open minded frame and some preselection.
• "I love how I can just talk with you about this stuff so freely and you don’t get uncomfortable or anything" - this is the first question I ask to set a discretion, nonjudgemental frame (but I save this one for after I've told the other gambits above. So timing matters with only this one).

 

[greenleaf]

MAYBE = receptive.
YES = sexual attracted receptive girl.
NO = unreceptive.

Thanks. I guess my definitions are a little confused. With them girls , even though they were receptive/friendly, i'd still call them 'no girls' in that I could just tell that I wasn't their type/they weren't into me 'sexually'- And that obviously nothing I could have said/done would have changed that fact, tbh

Which makes setting a sexual frame (verbal) to the interaction necessary.

Thanks. Yeah, actually, you reminded me, I did do that a little. I asked whether they were single and spoke about age gaps and asked their biggest gaps etc.

 

[Velasco]

even though they were receptive/friendly, i'd still call them 'no girls' in that I could just tell that I wasn't their type/they weren't into me 'sexually'- And that obviously nothing I could have said/done would have changed that fact, tbh

NO girls or as GirlsChase refers to them, Red girls, are girls who:

• Show little or no attraction signs, such as zero eye contact even when talking to you, and no smiles.
• Reject your investment in them (including openers) instantly – this includes soft rejections.
• Find ways to eject the situation early and quickly.
• Get really, really mad when you approach them, or ignore your approach altogether.
• Tell you they’re going to the bathroom or to find her friends soon after you approach them in a nightclub or bar.
• Extremely cold, non-compliant, or non-responsive.
• Don’t make any effort to continue a conversation with you.
• Close their body language to you when you approach them or after you approach them – e.g., arms crossed, legs crossed, body pivoted away.

MAYBE girls or as GirlsChase refers to them, Yellow girls, are girls who:

you may not fit her exact type, but she’s also not immediately repulsed and is potentially open to you seducing her.
Unlike Reds, this category is still receptive to your advances, but they are far more cautious about it. Most commonly, Yellows are hoping to meet their dream man, but they never saw you as their preferred incarnation of it. That doesn’t mean they don’t – or won’t – desire you, it just means you don’t match their preference right off the bat, and thus you have to stir up their desire.

The strategy with Yellows/MAYBEs is to talk about sex (what your favorite thing to do to girls in bed, ask her what she likes in bed then talk about what she likes in bed probably means about her, stories about girls who you've had an fun adventure with then ask her to share her own....ya know? can you see how asking them, whether they were single and their biggest gaps isn't enough maybe push a little further. what was it about him that you liked most? then she gives you X quality. Then later on share a story where you demonstrate X quality that she likes. when was the last time she had a boyfriend and why did she dump him? she'll give you Y reason (jealous, controlling, shit in bed). Then you contrast yourself away from Y qualities) and make her invest as much as possible (which you do when you ask her to tell you things/stories about previous relationships/favorite memories).

When you say they weren't sexually into you, all that means is they weren't YES girls.

 

[greenleaf]

interesting.

I guess in my experience, there are 'no girls' who, as you say are basically rude. Ignore you (or semi ignore you with one word answers and awful body language). Tell you to 'go away' etc.

Then there are 'receptive' girls who may be attracted, OR you might just not be her type and despite her being friendly and 'receptive' she's not attracted, and no matter what you do, that will remain to be the case. (Gaming in the US compared to the UK is weird, because 'receptive' girls seem make up like 70% there where it's more like 10% here. People are so social and friendly with strangers in comparison)

Then there are 'yes girls' who are clearly very attracted as soon as you say 'hi'. Super rare for me, but I have some good looking friends and so see it quite a lot lol

With sexualising convo, I guess it's kind of hit and miss. In sets that are firmly 'hooked' I always try to sexualise the convo a little (Didn't get the chance with the 3 set as soon after i'd started with the age gap questions which I was gonna use to springboard to sexualise more, the guy I knew killed the set). I tend to ask what their type is, talk a bit about dating and bring up sexual topics like threesomes etc. It helps fast forward the interaction with girls that are attracted, but with other 'receptive but not attracted' girls, it doesn't tend to really help me, tbh. I guess it's really a case of, you are either her physical type or you aren't, and you need to approach more to find them girls as one really can't FORCE 'attraction' in a girl. (I don't mean 'type' as in, 'this girl only goes for guys with green eyes' or whatever, but she thinks you're good looking)

 

[Velasco]

Right. So can you see that it was because of THIS

Didn't get the chance with the 3 set as soon after i'd started with the age gap questions which I was gonna use to springboard to sexualise more, the guy I knew killed the set

and not THIS

they weren't into me 'sexually'- And that obviously nothing I could have said/done would have changed that fact, tbh

despite her being friendly and 'receptive' she's not attracted, and no matter what you do, that will remain to be the case.

That you didn't close?

Think of it this way. Imagine if you were a girl that went to the bar and wanted to get laid. Why on earth would you spend 30-45 minutes of your time, talking to 2/10 who you had zero intention of sleeping with? (you don't seem like a total dickhead, but if a 2/10 chick approached you/made you laugh, maybe you'd joke around with her for a bit...BUT you'd certainly not want to spend more than 5 minutes with her and be trying to find any excuse to make your exit ASAP, especially when there are hotter sets around you).

 

[greenleaf]

I want you to think about the most common things you see girls doing in bars:

I'm Still trying to come up with some 'funny' lines for your scenarios. Although, the most common here seems to be like 2 girls sitting having a drink. Group of girls standing chatting together. (don't tend to often see girls dancing like a manic, dancing with a terrible dancer, holding 2 drinks etc, tbh)

I did make a tonne of approaches the other night like I mentioned, although there were definitely a few sets where I bottled it (mixture of girl being stupidly hot, plus me just not having anything come to my mind as an opener/and transition, and off of the back of some of them ''girls looking at me like i'm weird for opening them and barely replying'' type rejections, salted my game lol)

I do think that if I had a really good opener that I genuinely liked (for each situation) as well as some sort of 'transition' to really hook rather than just doing what I do (cold read or interview mode as per most new age PUA material I've read) i'd at least open more sets and have more confidence in doing so.

Going back to the maybe girl thing you mentioned, am I right in thinking that you're theory is less about 'game' in terms of DHV and 'building attraction', and more about trying to sexualise and make her horny with sex talk - idea being that as long as she's not a 'no girl', she'll then want to bang basically anyone if she is feeling horny? (I actually don't see much sex talk and sexualisation etc in 'most' infields, and they tend to promote the idea that with self-amusement and stuff (RSD) or with negs and disqualifying the girl (old school game) she will start to be attracted to you in the same way she's attracted to the tall handsome dude at the bad who she's been looking at all night). Your idea sounds a little different, although maybe i've read you wrong

I guess my experience so far (Little less than 2 years of cold approach) still seems to be that some girls WILL spend time (maybe not 45mins, but certainly 10-15) chatting with me if they think i'm fun, even if they aren't sexually attracted. I guess they'd seem like 'maybe girls' (by your definition) although I certainly sense no attraction (and so think of them as 'no girls'), and it's usually confirmed when I try to escalate in some way, EVEN IF I've sexualise the convo and spoke about threesomes and they've contributed and stuff etc.

I've got lots of other questions. I might just start some threads in the 'beginner' section (in my experience, journals seems to get very little feedback)

I'll also maybe write some more field reports soon but probably only after I've got enough info from someones model to actually test/compare to my own style.

You're one of the few posters who seems to give actionable advice/lines etc. And I don't mind actually going out and doing what i'm told lol. At this point it's almost a personal challenge to see if this 'game' stuff is for real or not!! (hopefully you know what I mean. I'm not denying that 'game' is a thing, but there's lots of smokes and mirrors out there since it's a business and some outrageous claims are made!) lol - But strict mysterymethod (opinion openers, neg at the open, hide intent until she is clearly super interested etc) style certainly did NOT work for me (actually gave me my worst results by far. Not sure if it's a culture thing or not, but for example, even a playful neg on a hot girl at the open in my town is a good way to literally get told to fuck off or at best have her look at you like a retard. Rapport seems to be needed here.).

RSD style (I guess more Julien game. Opening, firing interview mode questions at girls, negging from their answers, self amusing etc) gave me results, but It still felt like PURE numbers game (I was banging 'yes girls' who I could tell within 2 seconds liked me). I've also taken other PUA's advice, but i'm yet to feel close to feeling like I have much of an 'edge' (other than having the balls to approach) over other guys, despite reading just about everything in existence in terms of game lol

My general 'model' at the moment I guess most closely follows Juliens and Jeffy's with elements of a few others. Usually open with something situational. Ideally funny if something comes to mind. Or just keep it simple with a 'who are you' type opener). 'Swing through' as Jeffy says and ground the opener and chat. I tend to throw in a 'cold read' at this point about her, mainly to please people when I write FR's who tell me to make cold reads instead of asking questions. Make an observation or 2 about whatever stands out. Maybe her clothes or whatever. Then I'll ask questions (as per Julien style). Breka rapport. Play with her answers. Tease. I might even DISQUALIFY her at this point (Todd Valentine-ish). Tell her it wouldn't work between us or that she's not my type etc. She might hook. We carry on chatting and I might Qualify her a little - After a while i'll reward her compliance and, as Jeffy says, throw in some statements of intent. (Jeffy tends make it more physical and tends to say she's 'quite cute' or something. Julien tend to make it about her personality. I play with both). Then i'll tend to sexualise the convo and bring up threesomes etc through a 'game'. Escalate. Seed the pull. Close.

I've probably missed out some steps, but that's my basic model that's worked for me some. But I rarely get far into that model unless she thinks i'm hot lol. (And I guess since I can't read girls minds (in my life or in infields) I don't know whether that's actually the case for EVERYONE!!)

 

[Velasco]

the most common here seems to be like 2 girls sitting having a drink.

Ok so do you have an opener for this scenario? (I don't open groups (4-5) of girls standing chatting together, personally (now if its 4-5 girls dancing together that's different. They are usually more receptive to being opened (they're not really there to "dance" after all. know what I'm saying ). So I don't got an opener for that one)

I'll give you a couple things that I've used in the past for this situation that've gotten me good reactions:

1) "Hey guys sorry I'm late => [whatever reason for being late that makes you laugh] I couldn't find parking ANYWHERRRE" (use my hands for dramatic effect). then keep the frame going until either they break out laughing or they tell you to fuck off.

pretty much like this classic scene 0:36

2) Ask them an innocent question (hey have you guys been here before/do you guys know if it gets busy later or is this as busy as it gets on Fridays/do you guys know where's the bathroom/excuse me what's the name of this bar called?) then once they begin to answer your question, notice something about them (accent, color of her eyes, their drink), thank them, then comment and tease them on it.

Ex:
"Thanks. Say what accent is that? is that french? her: no its actually X. "oh really damn. my ex ex girlfriend was from there. She was like super fucking wild lol. I don't know if all girls that from X are like that. oh maybe I just picked a bad apple"

"thanks. say what are you drinking? her: its X "ohhh well you know what they say about girls who drink X. her: no what do they say? "hmm actually I want to know if its true before I tell you".

You're one of the few posters who seems to give actionable advice/lines

Thanks. I try to give advice that I would want to receive myself (I hate when guys give me cliche advice and abstract mumbo jumbo so I stay away from giving it myself lol).

am I right in thinking that you're theory is less about 'game' in terms of DHV and 'building attraction', and more about trying to sexualise and make her horny with sex talk - idea being that as long as she's not a 'no girl', she'll then want to bang basically anyone if she is feeling horny?

1) To make her horny (by letting her know I'm a pure sex provider). And 2) make her feel allowed to act on it (make her invest (tell me stories about her doing adventurous/risky things/reveal her past relationship experience/what she likes about men/favorite sex position) and expose the similarity bias (just agree with her a lot basically. and then share a relevant story so that she feels like I "get her") as much as possible/set non-judgemental frame). That's my game.

(I actually don't see much sex talk and sexualisation etc in 'most' infields, and they tend to promote the idea that with self-amusement and stuff (RSD) or with negs and disqualifying the girl (old school game) she will start to be attracted to you in the same way she's attracted to the tall handsome dude at the bad who she's been looking at all night).

Most infields are shit tbh. I've always said to my wing, that if there was a camera following me, and a recorder to capture what I'm talk about with girls, I'd set the world record for fastest youtube channel to get banned. and probably have an angry mob come after me, for all the super sexual, racist, sexist comments I make.

As for the second part of your comment, the self amusement/negs/disqualifers will not make her attracted to you if she thinks your ugly. but they certainly help you reach the hook point. And this starts with the opener. So that's why my openers are pretty much always self amusement.

so its pre-hook (which includes the opener) and post-hook (this is where I focus more on setting sex frames and tone down the self amusement/negs).

I guess my experience so far (Little less than 2 years of cold approach) still seems to be that some girls WILL spend time (maybe not 45mins, but certainly 10-15) chatting with me if they think i'm fun, even if they aren't sexually attracted. I guess they'd seem like 'maybe girls' (by your definition) although I certainly sense no attraction (and so think of them as 'no girls'), and it's usually confirmed when I try to escalate in some way, EVEN IF I've sexualise the convo and spoke about threesomes and they've contributed and stuff etc.

Can you tell me how your escalating? When I think about myself, I don't escalate until I know the girl is gonna be receptive to it. Like if I get near a girl's lips to tell her something. and she moves her lips a little bit closer like she wants me to kiss her, then I know I can escalate on her if I want, and I won't be rejected. If I don't get any signal from her, that she wants to be kissed, but she's contributing with telling my about the stuff I wrote about above in "make her invest" then I won't escalate on her (and you don't really need to tbh. I try to minimize escalation as much as possible as I tend to OVERescalate which tend to kill more sets than I like). I just trust that my game has done its work and pull without it. This is one of those cases where RSDMax's "the biggest IOI a girl can give you is that she is still there" does apply.

I do think that if I had a really good opener that I genuinely liked (for each situation) as well as some sort of 'transition' to really hook rather than just doing what I do (cold read or interview mode as per most new age PUA material I've read) i'd at least open more sets and have more confidence in doing so.

Correct

(5:12 - 7:05)

Rapport seems to be needed here

I used to hate rapport. Because I didn't know what the fuck to talk about. I wasn't interested in what their job is, their name, their hopes and dreams. I just wanted to get laid ASAP without having to talk all that much because back then, I had a huge tendency to put my foot in my mouth. And all I did was self amusement (even gave myself the nickname, "the spike god" cause I just liked to spike girls buying temperature...and THATS all I did lol). Now a days, I try to get the girl AWAY from the dancefloor as fast as possible to a quiet area so that I can actually talk to her. Because I understand Frame game. Which RSD didn't teach me about when I was new to PUA.

I've also taken other PUA's advice, but i'm yet to feel close to feeling like I have much of an 'edge' (other than having the balls to approach) over other guys, despite reading just about everything in existence in terms of game lol

Sexual Frame game is really what I feel is what gives me an edge over regular guys who don't study PUA. Have you read this article: https://www.girlschase.com/content/pulling-lay-when-you-re-sick-dog-tired-report if not I highly recommend it. Cause thats pretty close to what my game looks like nowadays compared to my RSD days.

My general 'model' at the moment I guess most closely follows Juliens and Jeffy's with elements of a few others. Usually open with something situational. Ideally funny if something comes to mind. Or just keep it simple with a 'who are you' type opener). 'Swing through' as Jeffy says and ground the opener and chat. I tend to throw in a 'cold read' at this point about her, mainly to please people when I write FR's who tell me to make cold reads instead of asking questions. Make an observation or 2 about whatever stands out. Maybe her clothes or whatever. Then I'll ask questions (as per Julien style). Breka rapport. Play with her answers. Tease. I might even DISQUALIFY her at this point (Todd Valentine-ish). Tell her it wouldn't work between us or that she's not my type etc. She might hook. We carry on chatting and I might Qualify her a little - After a while i'll reward her compliance and, as Jeffy says, throw in some statements of intent. (Jeffy tends make it more physical and tends to say she's 'quite cute' or something. Julien tend to make it about her personality. I play with both). Then i'll tend to sexualise the convo and bring up threesomes etc through a 'game'. Escalate. Seed the pull. Close.

Thats actually a pretty good model. I wouldn't ask you to change it, if you like the results you get from it. My pre-hook game actually looks pretty similar to this. The only difference is where I explained my post-hook strategy above which is all about making her horny (if I can see she's not sexually into me from the get-go. if she is, then it'll just amplify it) and making her feel allowed to act on her it.

 

[naturalmikey]

i’ve experimented with a bunch of openers. cajuns drug dealer opener is one that works great on groups or lone wolfs. opinion openerers in general work well on groups. if i’m opening a single girl i usually just introduce myself. i’ve also use “well you are quite compelling.” if she makes eye contact sometimes i’ll be like “oh my god do i have something on my face?” if you’re gonna do more than introduce yourself try to self amuse yourself. another good one is say hi grab her right hand with your right hand. then place your left hand around her wrist and lead her arm to around your shoulder. then whisper in her ear something weird like “i have a beard” “i’m not wearing cologne” “my mom got me this shirt.” the weird comment disarms the resistance she’ll have to your fairly aggressive move once she realizes what just happened. then back off a bit.

there are so many ways to open. if introducing yourself isn’t working try opinion openers or self amusing openers.

 

[greenleaf]

Ok so do you have an opener for this scenario?

Nothing that has proven more effective than any other opener, really. It's just so hard to analyse this stuff because there's always teh unknown element of 'did she just like me?!'.

I have this thing where, whenever I have a good interaction, I tend to use that opener lots going forward (since it's 'worked' at least once so probably isn't 'bad'), but inevitably, it tends to prove no better in the long run than any other. I opened a girl a while with a comment on her outfit and made a joke about me having a shirt with a similar pattern and that it's my lucky 'first date' shirt, and she loved it. So did her friend. And it was a really positive set that just 'took off'. (openers that kind of naturally transition into a convo are the best. That's why I hate when people say 'just say hi' on reddit when talking about openers.)

However, i've used that opener lots since, and after it bombing twice last night (or maybe they were just hard 'no girls'? Who knows!!) where they just look at me like i'm speaking Dutch and it gets weird fast, and a good few times before that night, i'm close to dropping it from the rotation lol

Which leads me onto this:

1) "Hey guys sorry I'm late

pretty much like this classic scene 0:36

Funnily enough, This was the opener I used about 2 years back for my first ever 'legit' cold approach (after reading my first game material all day. Before that i'd just banged some social circle girls like most guys)

I opened a 2-set and pretended to be late for our 'blind date'. The target girl was receptive. Her friend loved me too and left us alone. And I took her back and banged her an hour later. As before, it became my 'go too' opener, but man, in hindsight, it's 'bombed' so many damn times since then lol. It's like most of the girls just don't have the sense of humour for it and it tends to put me off in a position where i'm trying to 'recover' from after they are either super confused, or they 'get' the joke, but since it's kind of 'direct' (albeit in a jokey way) they react almost hostile if you aren't their type. So i've not used that type of opener in a god few months now.

Can you tell me how your escalating?

Still something i'm playing with. Basically, I have a fair few sets with what you would call 'maybe girls' (since they were receptive to the open). But despite my best efforts I don't sense any attraction. I honestly feel as though I can always tell instinctively. This lead to me having many sets that would just end without me ever really 'making a move' at all, but then i'd think 'Hmmm....I wonder if I maybe DID have a shot with her, but I just didn't have the balls to make a move since I didn't sense attraction''. A dating coach told me to 'make a move' in every set going forward, even if I didn't sense attraction. (goes very much against mysterymethod, but then all coaches disagree about everything) - So I began experimenting and, in sets that was going 'ok' but I didn't sense attraction (where i'd thus usually not show intent or anything) i'd try for isolation, or try to ramp up kino and turn up the sub coms etc, or maybe even verbalise some intent as per Jeffy (don't know how strict he is about IOI's from her before showing intent).

I had an example of this last week actually where I was in a set (I knew the girl fancied my very handsome friend despite using zero 'game'). But he'd gone home so I carried on gaming. She was completely 'hooked', but I didn't sense attraction. But at that point i'd done all I could. Every 'game principle' I'm aware of. I'd teased her. I'd told stories to DHV. I'd been self amusing. i'd brough up some sexual topics and she contributed. I was out of ammo but as per the dating coach, wanted to make sure I was correct in my assumption of her lack of attraction - So I just got closers to her and done triangular gazing, and even that was enough for her to shoot me down lol. ''Don't try to kiss me!! You're just not my type, but I think my friend might like you'' kind of thing

I'll check out that chase article

Thats actually a pretty good model. I wouldn't ask you to change it, if you like the results you get from it.

Nah, that's why i'm here. I don't like the result i'm getting lol. Like, tbh, i've done better than I thought I would and have slept with a few pretty girls, but as I say, it feels like every lay is the result of me not messing up (and maybe escalating and moving the interaction forward more efficiently than my game unaware friends) with girls who are simply attracted to me before I opened them. But if i'm honest, I kind of feel that way when I watch infields and read LR's!!

Even though it won't much effect the actual 'end result', as said, i'm sure there are improvemets I can make in my opening and transitioning (although I really do feel like i've read/seen and tested everything out there lol!). Slightly frustrating to kind of be a bit stuck on that early aspect after a few years, but it is what it is! I kind of put some of it down to the culture. My 'hook and opening' rate went through the roof when I travelled!! (US for example felt like 1 hard 'no girl' per 15 opens, whereas it's more like 8 per 15 here lol)

 

[Velasco]

Nothing that has proven more effective than any other opener, really. It's just so hard to analyse this stuff because there's always teh unknown element of 'did she just like me?!'.

Really anything will work if she doesn't think your hideous. The reason I choose to use self amusement situational openers. Is for 2 key reason: 1) speeds up the process of me getting the girl to the hook point (and then isolate them) with girls who are receptive to me Vs throwing a generic "how's your night going". and 2) nothing gets me into state faster than self amusing. Which is where I wanna be when I see that 8 I was too scared to approach a couple minutes ago. If she thinks I'm ugly or doesn't find my sense of humor funny, then it doesn't matter what I opened with. So of course it'll be "ineffective" on them. Of course, if you get bored of using the same opener (not funny to you anymore) or you find that for 9 out of 10 girls don't like your opener, then change it up. And come up with something new, following the same principle: Appropriate to the situation and it makes you laugh.

it tends to put me off in a position where i'm trying to 'recover' from after they are either super confused, or they 'get' the joke, but since it's kind of 'direct' (albeit in a jokey way) they react almost hostile if you aren't their type. So i've not used that type of opener in a god few months now.

ya. I can see how some girls would react confused as fuck or react very badly with telling them that your their blind date lol. Cause it MIGHT be true that one of her friends set her up with you. See that's why I make sure to OVERexaggrate, to the point where clearly what I'm saying is absolute nonsense. that there is no mistaking, oh this guy is just being a silly shithead. And even IF they don't find it funny, I think its funny as shit that they think I'm being serious, so I'll eject the set laughing and approach another set, not having my self esteem destroyed because one girl didn't "get" my retarded joke.

lead to me having many sets that would just end without me ever really 'making a move' at all

But the conversation was also platonic, right? Talking about random shit, not conductive to getting the lay VS talking about super sexual shit despite not 'making a move'.

A dating coach told me to 'make a move' in every set going forward, even if I didn't sense attraction. (goes very much against mysterymethod, but then all coaches disagree about everything)

I think both that dating coach's advice and MM are retarded tbh. Like I said in my previous comment. You don't NEED to escalate/show intent. Just assume that she already knows you want to fuck her (like in the back of her head, she knows you're talking to her because you want to fuck her, and she might fuck you too, but she wants to know what kind of guy you are (are you gonna be good in bed, are you the type that slut shames, are you gonna try and make her your girlfriend right away....these are questions she asks herself when she's considering you for fast sex (she'll ask herself different questions when she's considering you for boyfriend potential) so that's why you should focus on setting frames instead.

 

[naturalmikey]

Really anything will work if she doesn't think your hideous. The reason I choose to use self amusement situational openers. Is for 2 key reason: 1) speeds up the process of me getting the girl to the hook point (and then isolate them) with girls who are receptive to me Vs throwing a generic "how's your night going". and 2) nothing gets me into state faster than self amusing. Which is where I wanna be when I see that 8 I was too scared to approach a couple minutes ago. If she thinks I'm ugly or doesn't find my sense of humor funny, then it doesn't matter what I opened with. So of course it'll be "ineffective" on them. Of course, if you get bored of using the same opener (not funny to you anymore) or you find that for 9 out of 10 girls don't like your opener, then change it up. And come up with something new, following the same principle: Appropriate to the situation and it makes you laugh.



ya. I can see how some girls would react confused as fuck or react very badly with telling them that your their blind date lol. Cause it MIGHT be true that one of her friends set her up with you. See that's why I make sure to OVERexaggrate, to the point where clearly what I'm saying is absolute nonsense. that there is no mistaking, oh this guy is just being a silly shithead. And even IF they don't find it funny, I think its funny as shit that they think I'm being serious, so I'll eject the set laughing and approach another set, not having my self esteem destroyed because one girl didn't "get" my retarded joke.



But the conversation was also platonic, right? Talking about random shit, not conductive to getting the lay VS talking about super sexual shit despite not 'making a move'.



I think both that dating coach's advice and MM are retarded tbh. Like I said in my previous comment. You don't NEED to escalate/show intent. Just assume that she already knows you want to fuck her (like in the back of her head, she knows you're talking to her because you want to fuck her, and she might fuck you too, but she wants to know what kind of guy you are (are you gonna be good in bed, are you the type that slut shames, are you gonna try and make her your girlfriend right away....these are questions she asks herself when she's considering you for fast sex (she'll ask herself different questions when she's considering you for boyfriend potential) so that's why you should focus on setting frames instead.

i also find the opener doesn’t matter much. it’s more about the vibe you open with. the perfect opener delivered wrong isn’t good but can be recovered from. a basic opener delivered great can hit but you can lose interest. everyone focuses on the opener which i don’t really understand. it matters so little to the interaction. but if you deliver an opener with a good vibe it’s likely your interaction will have a good vibe. then it’s on you to run your style of game.

the one exception would be larger groups. the entire group could be very dismissive of your bad opener. but it’s still mostly about vibe and not what you say.

 

[greenleaf]

The reason I choose to use self amusement situational openers. Is for 2 key reason: 1) speeds up the process of me getting the girl to the hook point (and then isolate them) with girls who are receptive to me Vs throwing a generic "how's your night going". and 2) nothing gets me into state faster than self amusing

yeah, I agree. It's great when they work in terms of reaching the hook point and also for your state. of course some PUA's hate anything different/unusual that they consider try-hard etc, and always advise to open 'hey, what's up' kind of thing. Some PUA's even claim that as their 'edge' as they say everyone else is trying to be funny and different. I don't know. From my point of view, nobody is opening full stop where I live!! There was a poster on rooshV called 'the6' or something, and he had the highest lay count (apparently) on roosh's forum and would post a new lay report every day, and all his FR's were like ''Opened a girl with my famous, 'how's your night going' opener. Asked her name and stuff. Chatted. Invited her back to my hostel. Had sex'' kind of thing lol. Although yeah, he could have been lying (or maybe was just handsome or banging ugly girls), but my scepticism is at an all time high recently when it comes to most things with the community recently, lol

ya. I can see how some girls would react confused as fuck or react very badly with telling them that your their blind date lol. Cause it MIGHT be true that one of her friends set her up with you. See that's why I make sure to OVERexaggrate, to the point where clearly what I'm saying is absolute nonsense.

haha - yeah, true. I always tried to make it sounds stupid (would talk about how i'm late because there was a dead elephant on the train tracks bla bla bla) and most would 'get' that I was just being stupid, but I remember one girl in a casino who was just baffled and probably thought I was either being serious or that I was genuinely insane and i'd already cemented that thought in her head so that when I tried to be like ''I'm just fucking about. I wanted to meet you. Who are you?'' she was still looking at me as the nutbar, and I couldn't recover! haha. And of course lots of other girls just weren't receptive too it, but there's no magic bullet. Can't really tell a girls sense of humour before speaking to her

I'm trying to think of other, shall we say, 'gimmik'/self amusement openers i've used now. I might try a night of 'self amusement openers'. Not just the blind date one. Maybe pretending to think a girl is a celebrity of some shit! I don't know lol. I did have a really fun night out in the summer and number closed an absolute stunner. There were blow-up/plastic props scattered around the bar as it was a themed night. I saw an oversized blowup microphone and opened this super hot girl by 'interviewing' her as if she was on some sort of 'spring break' program, and I was pointing at various areas in the room telling her that there were cameras filming her and shooting questions at her in that MTV style and she luckily totally got it and I transitioned into normal chat and got her number.

Funnily enough the best open of the other night was a super normal open and I hooked 3 very hot girls into convo. (I'd previously been basically ignored by the previous sets with observational openers about their clothes and then making a cold read etc as per some PUA article i'd read that day, and they have worked before in fairness, but they didn't hook at all and looked at me like I was odd and didn't really talk back lol). I wish I could remember it more clearly, but I think I opened by asking them where's good to go tonight. One of them instantly asked me where my friends were (maybe that's why it 'hooked'. She actually asked me something which changes the dynamic!) and I told her I killed all my friends and that I was in their gang now, and one of them laughed hard and then they all loosened up, and before long we were just having a 2 way chat. Definitely at at least hooked. Laughing. Attracted? Probably not. Didn't sense it, but whatever. This is about opening and hooking

But the conversation was also platonic, right? Talking about random shit, not conductive to getting the lay VS talking about super sexual shit despite not 'making a move'.

Hmmm... certainly some sets, yes. But tbh, the point was that there were also lots of sets where i'd do everything I know in terms of game (negs, tease, disqualify, qualify, bla bla bla) and also talking about sexual stuff (sexual experiences/threesome talk etc which she would also sometimes contribute too), but since I still didn't sense attraction, I didn't make the move.

Then, after talking to that coach, i'd do the same stuff (game, game, game, sexualise) and then, even if I didn't sense attraction, i'd escalate/make the move whatever, and about 99.%% of the time, I was right - she wasn't attracted! Rejection. End of set lol

I think both that dating coach's advice and MM are retarded tbh.

Yeah, i'm not convinced about lots of dating coaches advice too, tbh. I've put quite a lot of stuff to the test, tbh. I actually make a fair few approaches. I think due to it being an unregulated industry where it's easy to simply fake shit and which also doesn't tend to take into account lots of important variables, lots of advice might do more harm than good! I get this impression when I read peoples failed FR's on 'seddit'. It's why i'd love to find a UK nightgamer (ideally not a handsome one) and pick his brain to pieces!!! (I done much better in the US, but people are social there, am i'm also sure my accent done me some favours!! )

 

[Velasco]

It's great when they work in terms of reaching the hook point and also for your state. of course some PUA's hate anything different/unusual that they consider try-hard etc, and always advise to open 'hey, what's up' kind of thing.

It doesn't always 'work' in terms of getting every girls to reach the hook point (Saturday I was 2 for 2 tho; first girl I approached was mexican who spoke broken english, so I had to speak Spanish with her. And although my Spanish is pretty good and she was interested in me, it's not good to the point where I can work in my frames with her. So I ejected from the set, and approached the next girl who was American. Being warmed up from the previous set, this one was a smooth pull), but it always works in terms of getting you loosened up/good flow going.

Like yeah of course it going up to some chick with a silly opener can be viewed as try-hard compared to 'hey what's up', but I'm just focused on what it does for me. Opening by amusing myself will get me in a good flow (if I can understand that if this girl rejects me, she's doing me a favor (hence shouldn't take it personal) because it would means we'd be incompatible. in terms of being future fuckbuddies. Because it would mean that I'd have to get rid of my jokey side that I is a part of who I am, when I'm around her, just so that won't try to get rid of me, cause she hates my jokes. Here in NY, there are a lot of girls that are very PC, that one joke could completely turn them off/offend them. So I ask myself, is that someone who I'm going to want to be around long term? Fuck no lmao. Especially when I have reference experience, that the girls who I've had most fun with are the girls who I can be my silly racist jokey self with. And then when I meet a girl who DOES laugh at my opener, the transition to reaching the hook point is super easy. So self amusing openers = get in good flow state (even if she rejects me), and easily hooks the sets that share my sense of humor.

There was a poster on rooshV called 'the6' or something, and he had the highest lay count (apparently) on roosh's forum and would post a new lay report every day, and all his FR's were like ''Opened a girl with my famous, 'how's your night going' opener. Asked her name and stuff. Chatted. Invited her back to my hostel. Had sex'' kind of thing lol. Although yeah, he could have been lying (or maybe was just handsome or banging ugly girls), but my scepticism is at an all time high recently when it comes to most things with the community recently, lol

agreed lol

If you're curious about this I used to be a regular part of the RooshV community and have met about a dozen members

The membership can be sorted into 3 categories

1. Coping ugly ethnics who get nothing
2. Coping sub6 crackers who chase ugly Asian girls and fatties
3. A small sliver of legit 7+ guys who clean up on online dating

If you read through the "Just Got Laid" thread you will see that a quarter to a half of all lays are reported as Asian

https://lookism.net/showthread.php?tid=136944

I remember one girl in a casino who was just baffled and probably thought I was either being serious or that I was genuinely insane and i'd already cemented that thought in her head so that when I tried to be like ''I'm just fucking about. I wanted to meet you. Who are you?'' she was still looking at me as the nutbar, and I couldn't recover! haha.

Fucking lol. but you really should have just viewed the situation as funny. WHY would you want to recover from a girl like that? I mean once you cross the 100 n count, I think guys should transition to finding girls who you know you're more compatible with. Those 100 lays (or maybe even 50) should have taught you what you like in girls (besides their looks), and look for it. For me that's sharing my sense of humor, is very healthy/fit/flexible, rich.

I did have a really fun night out in the summer and number closed an absolute stunner. There were blow-up/plastic props scattered around the bar as it was a themed night. I saw an oversized blowup microphone and opened this super hot girl by 'interviewing' her as if she was on some sort of 'spring break' program, and I was pointing at various areas in the room telling her that there were cameras filming her and shooting questions at her in that MTV style and she luckily totally got it and I transitioned into normal chat and got her number.

haha good shit

the point was that there were also lots of sets where i'd do everything I know in terms of game (negs, tease, disqualify, qualify, bla bla bla) and also talking about sexual stuff (sexual experiences/threesome talk etc which she would also sometimes contribute too

That's not my experience. if she's actually contributing by telling me her sexual experiences, answers my further questions that dig deeper into her sexual experiences (why, when, what, who), and then me sharing a related story....it's by this point the girls make that 'flip' where they will want to sleep with me, because I've demonstrated here that not only do I 'get them', I make them feel comfortable (does she share these things about herself with just about everyone, or only her close friends who she's very comfortable with?) and turned her on via my own story. Every so often guys will write a FR where they ask the girl post-lay, "so when did you know you wanted to fuck me?" and the vast majority of the time, you'll read that the girl said, "i knew right away" (because they were YES girls) but you'll also get some reports that'll be the girl pin pointing at some point in the interaction where it was some action you performed that made the decision for her. Many times it's here in the comfort stage, where you're deep diving about sexual experiences.