Paying for a date in a non-chasing way

[PinotNoir]

I live in the south, so I feel like it's harder to get away with not paying for a 1st date.

I actually tried not paying for a few chicks and just splitting the bill, and the results were not good haha. After I told the waiter "just splitting it," the girl kind of flips into being cold and bad vibe and then no 2nd date. I'm sure I'm doing something wrong here.

Anyway, in the meantime, I've figured out 3 ways to alleviate this. So this is for the beginners/intermediates out there For the advanced/veterans, it probably won't matter. (In all cases, you shouldn't be taking girls on extravagant/expensive 1st dates. I'm assuming it's a small restaurant or coffee shop.)


1) This is really my favorite way. You pick a place to meet that is close to you, but not close to her. (This also makes your date easy for yourself -- not as big of deal if she flakes -- and better logistics if you live alone). Then, at the beginning of the date or when the checks come, I just go ahead and say, "Since you had to drive so far, I'll pay for us this time." (You can also add in line #2 below at the end of this statement.)

It's pretty much like.... since you had to spend so much money on gas, I'll get the bill. It feels more "even."

2) This one is a little bit riskier because if the 1st date doesn't go well she won't agree to a 2nd (but will most likely agree if do a more inexpensive date).

Basically, when the check comes, you just say, "I'll pay for it this time, and you pay for the next time." The date needs to be going well though.

Last girl I did this with, I paid at Thai place (nothing fancy) on our 1st date. Then on our 2nd date (Whole Foods + walk in park), she bought me coffee+bananas+nuts. She got off a tad easier on purpose as I proposed Whole Foods, but she still paid and had a good 2nd date

3) This is really the worst one, but I'll usually just say it bluntly, "Well, I'm from the south... so I'll pay for the 1st date. " You're basically just saying that you pay for 1st dates only.


If the date is not going well, then I usually just have us split the bill haha.

 

[Mr.Rob]

Sup Pinot!

As you know, Im from the South as well and I really don't have enough reference points to say it works one way or the other. All the dates I have been on though we've split the bill. However the most recent was an instant date and she wasn't super high value in comparison to me so that could have been why. Before that the girl was actually from Columbia but raised in southern culture.

Still not enough reference points.

I think tip 1 is the best out of the three especially since she invested already.

Tip 2 sounds too "you vs. her" and kind of separates yall from being a team (assuming you were before the comment was made).

Tip 3 sounds a bit too "nice" in my opinion.

However my favorite is to go to a place where it's stand in line and buy your food type of deal and then order first pay and go sit down and smile at her as you do. Haha it's kind of a dick move especially since we're supposed to be proper gentlemen (you have to throw ladies first and "the man always pays" out the window) but she has no other choice but to buy her own shit and come sit with you (she's pretty invested at this point).

I tried letting her go first and standing back clearly waiting for her to finish up. When she finished up, I went and ordered and realized she didn't pay for hers but told the lady I was paying. I think a lot of girls simply assume the man always pays down here.

Though I've never had this go bad so far (though only 1 was a real date the rest instant) and I have to say it does a fantastic job of putting yourself into the lover category.

You just start talking and make the convo fun/interesting like nothing happened and she forgets two seconds later anyway.

-Rob

 

[PinotNoir]

Hey man, great idea to pick a place where you go up to pay first. Like you said, that way you can keep talking after and build the comfort back up, and she forgets about it in a few seconds. I generally don't take girls to these places; I don't know why. I'll have to start trying that.

I guess this is more of a problem when you have to pay at the end because then it leaves her with a sour taste in her mouth right at the end of the date (especially if she's southern), unless you have something planned after the meal (which is hard for busy girls and informational dates during lunch).

I've never not paid for a coffee date, but in the case of a coffee, where you do pay first, it's so inexpensive that it's not even a worry. Have you tried not paying on coffee dates?

Another thing came to my mind that could be added to the list.

4) In the case of #2 on the 2nd date, you can pick something like a farmer's market or grocery store. You plan to go to Whole Foods, and you can easily navigate the purchasing in a socially savvy way, "Well, I got the grapes; how about you get the cheese?" or "Since I bought the wine, you get the food?" or "Nah, I don't really want pistachios, but you can buy them if you want." Then you take the finger food and a cheap bottle of wine to a park or local botanical gardens.

I think this would work out well, but I haven't tested it as much. I plan on doing the finger food + wine + park + picnic more anyway, as it's a great date.

 

[Mr.Rob]

that way you can keep talking after and build the comfort back up, and she forgets about it in a few seconds.

Exactly, it's highly unlikely that she'll make a big deal and walk away... its also somewhat intriguing/unexpected for her which makes you unpredictable.

I've never not paid for a coffee date, but in the case of a coffee, where you do pay first, it's so inexpensive that it's not even a worry. Have you tried not paying on coffee dates?

Lately I haven't been... My first cold approach LR was a coffee instant date and I didn't and she was a thorough southern girl (though she was older like 36).

Yeah come to think of it I usually don't pay for coffee dates (though they've all been instant dates) and it's never an issue. I even brought one girl home (actually come to think of it I met her in target and she paid for my items so I did buy her coffee but it was like I didn't since she spent more money on my items than my money on her coffee). It didn't pan out she was super religious and when I kissed her she informed me I was one of the only guys she'd ever kissed... poor girl she was like 23 and waiting to find her soul mate.

I like your addition Pinot but why not make that a first date and do so accordingly as you mentioned?

I really like that date idea except why not on a first date, it covers all of the 5 C's (for a date), and is a breath of fresh air from the traditional "get coffee/bite to eat".

I'd frame it easy as "I don't eat at many restaurants because their not healthy so let's go somewhere that I can eat" (I use that as an excuse to get girls to my house "we have to go to my house to grab some food because I can't eat anywhere else!"... good plausible deniability).

I'm def. gonna try that date idea out, thanks for the tip Pinot!

-Rob

 

[Teparus]

I just pay for it. Draw 0 attention to any investments you make it in her. Make it seem like it is *not at all a big deal*, as if paying for the meal is totally without consequence to you. If they thank you, make a vague waving gesture and dismissively say, "Don't worry about it." and quickly change the topic. Don't let your investments linger in her mind.

If they go for the check or try to split it...I'll say something along the lines of (in a very over the top voice), "Oh, you're one of them thar innepennet feminist types, huh? I've got this, woman, don't you worry your pretty little head." with a cheeky grin.

If they say they ARE one of those independent feminist types, and they say so, I'll often get in their face about it...as this has become an opportunity to win a frame battle, a make or break moment. You don't want her getting the impression that you care about the money at all, nor do you want her to think this is actually a big deal to you. You do want her to see you as a dominant man, and you do want her to feel properly silly n' cute. So, it's a game. It turns into foreplay. You're going to take care of her, and she's going to like it.

As such, if we're standing, I'll often take a step towards her, give her some shy eyes, smirk, and say in a husky voice, "I'm going to pay for this...try to stop me." (as a 6'3, 200lb man...they sure can try)

One girl, I actually physically wrestled away from the register on our way out as I left my card there until the cashier was done. That was a fun night.

 

[PinotNoir]

That's actually what I used initially when trying to change "how" I pay for dates.... by being nonchalant like you said. And, I think that is a good tactic when starting out. I've been trying these others though to slowly get away from the "boyfriend material" idea in her head though. (EDIT: and really, you should always be nonchalant)

However, physically wrestling with a girl over the check.... I wouldn't suggest that. Law of least effort. Even if it was fun (and maybe even hot), I wouldn't do that. I actually know a friend of mine that does that too -- will never let the girl pay and wrestle her for it. I think it's just too much effort. Also, if you're smooth about it, you can say indirectly/non-verbally, "Eh, I'm used to this; girls always want to pay for me."

 

[Mr.Rob]

If she really wants to pay for it or split the bill what's the reason for forcing her to have to submit to you demanding that you pay for it?

That makes it seem like making something as trivial and irrelevant as a bill for food somewhat of a big deal. As far as what the action speaks.

Personally I don't have a desire to pay for the bill nor do I feel like a gentleman when I do so (I feel like a chode actually).

I like RSD's philosophy on paying for dates being that "A date is a reward for fucking me".

Also Chase has a cool philosophy "it's not really a date but two people that think their interesting getting to know each other and then going home for a romp in the hay".

A "date" prior to having sex to me is what guys battling for provider category (that don't realize the lover category exists) do.

When your paying for stuff, yeah obviously its possible to still get same night/day sex, but wouldn't it communicate that your looking/will provide before she really offers any real value to your life.

You could even make a weak argument that it's kind of like prostitution. Man pays for meal --> girl goes home to fuck man. The exchange of currency for value.

Or more likely... Man pays for meal --> girl gives man peck on the cheek and proceeds to go home and call up the douchebag she met at the club the other night to come over and fuck her.

haha

Anyway Haraklus I'm curious to your opinion and perspective on this... Pinot Obviously as well.

-Rob

 

[Teparus]

And, I think that is a good tactic when starting out. I've been trying these others though to slowly get away from the "boyfriend material" idea in her head though.

Totally agreed. I'm curious about your tactics, though. Because I cannot think of a better way to do it than not bringing any attention to it. Anything you say or do that adds to that increases her perception of your investment. 'Not caring' is way less of a big deal than explicitly negotiating tit for tat, or coming up with an excuse. You're doing it automatically because you just don't care. In other words, I think that if you're going to pay, it should be flippant and automatic, for the most part.

If you are 100% looking for quick sex, I'd say just tell her that you're splitting it, or turn the tables and ask her to pay for you. Realize, though, that a lot of women are going out with you because they perceive some provider value. When you eliminate that value, they may decide that your pure sexual value isn't worth sticking around for. In that case, not paying is a screening tool -- and you just have to deal with the fallout that comes from using a fairly shocking (to many women) screening tool that rips apart your value in their mind. You're in the south where women expect men to be more consistent providers? Tough noogies. I'd say. Win the frame battle or accept that they're interested in your provider value over your sexual value.

If she really wants to pay for it or split the bill what's the reason for forcing her to have to submit to you demanding that you pay for it?

Sometimes (most of the time) if she really wants to pay for the bill, I let her.

The first time I went out with the woman who's had my attention for a couple of weeks, she paid for both of us and I let her. No biggie. However, after spending a couple of weeks holed up in my apartment fucking whenever we saw each other, I took her out again and I paid. She tried to object (she makes like twice the money I do) and I didn't let her. In her case, she's had a hard time letting me take charge, and I've had to frame battle my way into a dominant role more than once. The sex is so much better that way. Any time she objects to me, I check myself to see if what I'm doing is fulfilling her needs, and if it is, I bull through all resistance. So, it wasn't about the check so much as me being consistently in charge. I'd already said I was covering it, and I was giving her the gift of going through on my word and thus enabling her to trust in the integrity of my leadership.

In other words, in the cases where I dominate her into letting me pay, it is never about me paying, it's about her being a good little girl who does what she's told. The reality is, I like materially taking care of women who are draining my balls every other day. I have some provider genes mixed in there with the cad genes. It works for me because I'm pretty well off and it's what I want to do anyway. As such, doing what I want to do and demanding compliance works decently, even if it's not totally optimal for everyone.

I like RSD's philosophy on paying for dates being that "A date is a reward for fucking me".

Pretty good way to look at it, and I do take a similar tack when it comes to "real" dates. When it comes to coffee or something along those lines, I just don't even worry about it. It's, like...3 bucks, tops? Who cares? Do whatever facilitates moving the interaction forward, what happens on the date matters a thousand times as much as who pays, unless you make a big deal out of it...which is never a good idea.

You could even make a weak argument that it's kind of like prostitution. Man pays for meal --> girl goes home to fuck man. The exchange of currency for value.

It's kinda true, and it does resemble that, but you're thinking about it very logically and distantly, rather than emotionally and in the moment, which is how women are going to perceive these things. If you pay for a woman the right way, she's either going to see you as some blend of powerful and loaded with resources and caring and sweet. If you pay the wrong way, she's going to see you as a tryhard chump who wants to impress her.

It's sort of like the difference between explicitly stating value and implying value. If you explicitly negotiate that you're paying for her for x reason, then it's about the same as explicitly stating value. It's like saying, "I'm such a high value guy that I don't pay for dates, or I only do if I'm getting paid in return....but okay, I'll pay for YOU." Saying that rather than letting it ooze through your pores isn't going to go over well. It's tryhard.

Meanwhile, a guy who just pays is definitely more provider-territory, but he's also not at all tryhard. Way better to be a provider with lots of sprezzatura -- which gives him both provider value and sexual value, than a tryhard provider -- one who explicitly negotiates the terms of his provider value, which communicates that it's scarce and he is afraid of spending it poorly. I'd say that the guy who has to explain why he's paying is still giving provider value, but he's way, way less sexy.

However, on the opposite tack...if you want to not give her provider value and only sexual value...then just man up and be an uncompromising asshole about it. Simple as that. You can't be nice and make a big deal out of capitulating to paying for her and be perceived as a no-strings-attached sexy man who can't be pinned down. That's just about the worst of both worlds.

 

[PrettyDecent]

Interestingly enough, girls always insist on paying for me. I think I pay every 1 in 5 dates (20%), roughly.

But perhaps this is just a cultural difference between the South and more international cities like Melbourne.

~Nick

 

[Mr.Rob]

Interestingly enough, girls always insist on paying for me. I think I pay every 1 in 5 dates (20%), roughly.

But perhaps this is just a cultural difference between the South and more international cities like Melbourne.

~Nick

Nick, I think it's that you're probably just an icy pimp

@Haraklus- I see your reasoning for paying for dates when in your relationship and I think that's a cool technique (don't know if it's best or not as I have little to no relationship experience). But your already fucking her at this point so it's sort of irrelevant to the original discussion (though glad you shared that).

However, on the opposite tack...if you want to not give her provider value and only sexual value...then just man up and be an uncompromising asshole about it.

Yes!

-Rob

 

[PinotNoir]

Yes, I know I'm probably running some things poorly. Really, I guess I wanted this topic to be about if you are paying for a date (the initial dates, not talking about with a girlfriend), how to do it properly.

I'm not quite sure why girls I take on 1st dates and don't pay go poorly. It's something that I need to work on for myself. I completely understand this.

Partly, it might be some outside factors:

1.) Southern women and southern influences (society)
2.) I usually date older women than myself (I'm 27, and I date 27+)
3.) Type of women I date/like (non-party, not big drinkers)
4.) I almost exclusively meet my women during day game (or occasionally Tinder or somewhere else), so less of a "hookup" mentality from her at the beginning

Of course, there are things I need to improve:

1.) Setting the right non-Boyfriend frames initially; I come off too much like boyfriend material when I meet women
2.) I have a great job (currently, about to quit) that pays well, and I dress too nice, so this probably gives off a strong provider feeling (girls might think "Why are you not paying? You make a lot I'm sure")
3.) I add sexuality in my conversation, but I probably bring up too many "boyfriend" topics (example would be "how many kids do you want in future?" which I've started cutting out of my conversations)
4.) The dates themselves; do more dates where paying is not necessary (walk in park and then back to my place for dinner)

Any others to add to the list?

I guess maybe I should have put this thread in a different section, not Tactics & Techniques.

But, if you feel compelled to pay for initial dates (non-girlfriend) and not getting good results when not paying for dates, then the solutions above have been helping me out.

Dates where I didn't pay: almost never got a 2nd date (but, if I ran it smoothly/properly, then probably should be 1st date sex anyway).
Dates where I paid but had no "strategy" with it: 2nd or 3rd date, but fizzled quick and didn't like me talking sexual as much.
Dates where I paid with a "strategy": more dates and more open to sexual talk.

So, if you're in this minority, maybe my advice will help a small bit, and/or if you're a beginner and still not ready to try not paying, maybe this will help. I don't know

If I get more time one month and no girlfriend in near future, then I'll put this more to the test and get strong stats to either back it up or disprove it altogether.

Eventually, I would like to not pay anymore for initial dates with new women, but it just hasn't been working for me. So, baby steps for now....