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I want to make this post to share my perspective on what frame control is and practical ways to strengthen it conversationally.
I won’t go into how you go about setting frames or how they’re established in this post. But I will define what frames are and what purposes they serve. This post will mostly be centered around strengthening already expressed frames and maintaining them.
These are my perspectives and how i’ve made myself a more persuasive individual.
What it means
At it’s simplest, frame control is controlling the narrative. Frames are any outlook that is held over a specific thing that build said narrative.
Think of any belief you may hold about whatever. Being an active member on a seduction forum for example, you may believe going around chatting up women is a productive use of time.
Where as someone else, let’s say a radical feminist, believes the very concept of seducing random women is evil and an abuse of authority.
These are both very real perspective’s for you and the imaginary rad feminist, and objectively one isn’t any more true than the other in their contexts.
The contrasting frames or frames of mind are constructed based on information from the same thing.
As seducers we believe women like to be seduced, because they say so in so many ways. The imaginary radical feminist believes the opposite because women(or their own experiences) have said so in so many ways.
The differences in frame or ideology come from different experiences, different values we were raised with, and the tendency to cherry pick self serving conclusions out of any given situation.
In that way there really is no 100% objective right or wrong to any given person’s frame of mind.
The control aspect comes from you being aware of the differences in frames of mind and reaching a mutual understanding, one that’s productive to your goals in this context.
We don’t want “agree to disagree”, we want the other person, or the audience little by little shifting over to your perspective on things. A perspective that allows for progression.
Controlling the Frame
With definitions out the way, I wanna go into common ways frame control is used, more elegant ways to go about it, overt and covert ways, and picking your battles when it comes to challenging frames.
Common ways Frame Control is Used
Frame control is a tool for persuasion, and more often than not used to mold behavior.
So with that being said I believe the most low level, common, and unproductive, applications of frame control are arguing, debating, violence, intimidation, passive aggressiveness, and ultimatums, In the context of persuasion.
While they do serve their purpose and can be really powerful if used at the appropriate time, with the right person, more commonly they are used when any disparity is had, and that person is strong willed and wants to control the frame.
I call these unproductive because while you may get your way, ultimately these behaviors drive a schism between them and you, depending on who you’re talking to. And only really should be applicable the deeper any given relationship goes. They are grossly misplaced if used in the context of early seduction or relationships. When a lack of investment is apparent.
With some they may shut down and negate your perspective altogether, or mirror back these same behaviors leading to nowhere. Others may appreciate these lower levels of communication. Others may be indifferent altogether. Some may allow you to steamroll them in this way. All depends on who you choose to spend your time around, and your role in their lives.
Nevertheless; “you serve vinegar, you gonna get pickles” -pimp c. Eventually anyway.
A caveat would be, like I said before, some people actually respond better, to this form of communication the deeper any given relationship goes. I’m hesitant to call them damaged, but i’ve found some people cannot be swayed in a more elegant way. Some scenarios do call for these.
But if you find yourself resorting to any of these in an attempt to mold behavior regularly, I really encourage you to read on because there are more productive ways.
Better ways to Control the Frame: Pacing and Leading
With any strongly held belief, I’m of the frame of mind that outright being disagreed with or telling/being told that you or they are wrong. Is absolutely deadly if your goal is to change minds. Unless you are coming from a position in which the other person is open to learning, and they know you have something to teach.
Doing so is regressing back to those lower level behaviors I mentioned before, and unless you absolutely have your facts in order, doing so may result in unfavorable dynamics.
So with that being said I think the natural progression from brashly disagreeing with someone, is Pacing and Leading.
It’s very simple, yet very effective. You acknowledge someones point of view, point out the aspects of their pov that are productive, and from there naturally segway into your frame using aspects of theirs.
This is the purest form of pacing and leading to me when it comes to frame control. It isn’t the “Okay I see but hear things my way” that’s more commonly used.
Here’s a demonstration:
In this demonstration you pace HB’s perspective and weave it throughout your own based on the values she deemed important to her. You open her/their mind to perspectives they may not have been aware of. And begin to erase the line between what they believe and what you believe.
When it comes to shifting behavior, or allowing future behavior this is key, because you’ve addressed concerns regarding it preemptively.
And though simply pacing and leading may not change their mind completely. It does dissolve frames a bit, and the person is much less likely to argue you down on it. Because you don’t trigger a defensive response.
You may see HB with a cat somewhere down the line.
What we are going for is understanding, when two perspectives are polar opposites, not total domination and agreement. Although this may happen as well.
Notice the lack of a combative tone when getting your point across. On the average people are much more susceptible to influence, when you do not force it onto them in a way that openly contradicts their perspectives. Or downplays their convictions in a negative undermining way.
It’s human nature, we all have egos and sometimes fall victim to an over emphasis on the self, and when your ego feels challenged, high self esteem/opinionated individuals tend to push back depending on who’s doing the pushing.
Very rarely will you run into self possessed people who don’t follow this fashion of behavior. Women sometimes especially. When shifting the frame focus on making your frame easier to swallow versus forcing it down their throat.
Pacing and Leading via empathy is a good way to do that. You need to be able to get out of your own personal ideology and view things creatively. You need to understand their perspective in full, make a note of what fuels their frame of mind, and gradually lead them away based on the values that are important to them.
Using the dog and cat analogy. To HB, loyalty was a key part of her frame. So telling her that cats have cool claws, won’t do much in terms of persuading her to viewing cats in a different light.
The applications of this are nearly universal.
Better ways to Control the Frame: Frame Shaming
This one is actually pretty common among persuasive individuals and in society in general. Frame shaming, or highlighting the potentially insecure aspects of someones frame.
Unlike pacing and leading you skip over empathy and shoot down a potential frame. By way of good fun or being deadly serious about it.
Most people want to fit in and don’t particularly like being painted in a negative light, especially when it’s sometimes ironically true to them at some level, and their frame isn’t very secure.
“Aren’t you too old for x?”
“I dont think grown men should x”
“Women your age should be”
“Most people don’t”
I’m sure you’ve seen or heard something like this. And although kind of insulting you can’t help but find it rings kind of true when painted in that light.
Not a fan favorite for me personally but I can’t deny it is a very effective way for changing behavior or shutting down frames. Particularly for when you are high status in their mind.
Questioning someones frame as if it were silly or stupid, shameful, or embarrassing. Works fairly well on people who hold you in high esteem.
By way of shaming someones frame you tempt them into changing by pointing out flaws in their frame, not in a way meant to be convincing, but as if it were foolish and you know better. Poking at the holes in their reasoning, in a way that resonates with them deep down.
Like I said not a fan favorite for me, and if used on you it’s fairly easy to turn the tables.
Frame shaming can quickly turn into something not conducive for seduction so it’s best used sparingly and largely depends on who you’re using it with.
It’s what you often see in arguments centered around masculinity, politics, and situations where it seems the moral high ground/social norms are being discussed.
Better ways to Control the Frame: Creative Reasoning / Drawing parallels
i’m a big fan of figurative language in general, and i’ve found it works fairly well when it comes to persuasion.
When you illustrate something in a way the other person can vibe with, it will sometimes alleviate any concerns they have and bring them into your frame.
Because in my experience these things boil down to a lack of perspective, and all it takes is you communicating in a language that they can understand, to highlight how you all are on the same page.
This may be my favorite out of aotb, and it allows you to later talk about the most mundane things, that actually mean something else entirely. Almost like talking in code.
Let’s say you’re talking to a girl who’s big on, IDK baking? HB has reservations on you taking more than one partner, because she herself has been reluctant to. Dating in that way might seem shallow to her.
Communicating in a language the other person can understand. So they can visualize and feel where you’re coming from. Talking like this will help them to connect the dots and broaden their perspective.
Better ways to Control the Frame: Pushing Hot Buttons
This term was pointed out to me by @TomInHo, a sales tactic in which you express your frame in a way that resonates with the other person.
I was wholly unaware that it existed as a tactic but would do it unconsciously when I felt like I knew who I was talking to.
Essentially when you are expressing your frame, you make inferences about values the other person holds, things they may be missing, or something that they yearn for.
This takes a bit of deductive reasoning and the ability to read a person. Knowing the implications in what you are expressing, and yet again, expressing it in a way that catches their attention.
Let’s say you’re talking to a girl who’s bored with her life. She may wish for excitement at some level.
But she also seems rather risk averse and may at some point self sabotage the dynamic between you and her.
Pushing hot buttons is as close to mind reading as you can get. It’s how redpill guys, sales people, guys like andrew tate, garner their audiences. They’re speaking to things you unconsciously want, and set themselves up as the conduit to these things.
Prerequisites to Controlling the Frame:
These can be used in tandem and i’ve found they work fairly well for maintaining/strengthening frames.
Frame control is one of those things that has universal applications when it comes to the social atmosphere, it isn’t just used in seduction. So in that way, I think it’s very beneficial to have a good grasp on using it.
By no means does this cover everything, and there are other good posts here and on girlschase that have helped me out. But nevertheless hopefully this has given a fresh perspective on different ways.
I won’t go into how you go about setting frames or how they’re established in this post. But I will define what frames are and what purposes they serve. This post will mostly be centered around strengthening already expressed frames and maintaining them.
These are my perspectives and how i’ve made myself a more persuasive individual.
What it means
At it’s simplest, frame control is controlling the narrative. Frames are any outlook that is held over a specific thing that build said narrative.
Think of any belief you may hold about whatever. Being an active member on a seduction forum for example, you may believe going around chatting up women is a productive use of time.
Where as someone else, let’s say a radical feminist, believes the very concept of seducing random women is evil and an abuse of authority.
These are both very real perspective’s for you and the imaginary rad feminist, and objectively one isn’t any more true than the other in their contexts.
The contrasting frames or frames of mind are constructed based on information from the same thing.
As seducers we believe women like to be seduced, because they say so in so many ways. The imaginary radical feminist believes the opposite because women(or their own experiences) have said so in so many ways.
The differences in frame or ideology come from different experiences, different values we were raised with, and the tendency to cherry pick self serving conclusions out of any given situation.
In that way there really is no 100% objective right or wrong to any given person’s frame of mind.
The control aspect comes from you being aware of the differences in frames of mind and reaching a mutual understanding, one that’s productive to your goals in this context.
We don’t want “agree to disagree”, we want the other person, or the audience little by little shifting over to your perspective on things. A perspective that allows for progression.
Controlling the Frame
With definitions out the way, I wanna go into common ways frame control is used, more elegant ways to go about it, overt and covert ways, and picking your battles when it comes to challenging frames.
Common ways Frame Control is Used
Frame control is a tool for persuasion, and more often than not used to mold behavior.
So with that being said I believe the most low level, common, and unproductive, applications of frame control are arguing, debating, violence, intimidation, passive aggressiveness, and ultimatums, In the context of persuasion.
While they do serve their purpose and can be really powerful if used at the appropriate time, with the right person, more commonly they are used when any disparity is had, and that person is strong willed and wants to control the frame.
I call these unproductive because while you may get your way, ultimately these behaviors drive a schism between them and you, depending on who you’re talking to. And only really should be applicable the deeper any given relationship goes. They are grossly misplaced if used in the context of early seduction or relationships. When a lack of investment is apparent.
With some they may shut down and negate your perspective altogether, or mirror back these same behaviors leading to nowhere. Others may appreciate these lower levels of communication. Others may be indifferent altogether. Some may allow you to steamroll them in this way. All depends on who you choose to spend your time around, and your role in their lives.
Nevertheless; “you serve vinegar, you gonna get pickles” -pimp c. Eventually anyway.
A caveat would be, like I said before, some people actually respond better, to this form of communication the deeper any given relationship goes. I’m hesitant to call them damaged, but i’ve found some people cannot be swayed in a more elegant way. Some scenarios do call for these.
But if you find yourself resorting to any of these in an attempt to mold behavior regularly, I really encourage you to read on because there are more productive ways.
Better ways to Control the Frame: Pacing and Leading
With any strongly held belief, I’m of the frame of mind that outright being disagreed with or telling/being told that you or they are wrong. Is absolutely deadly if your goal is to change minds. Unless you are coming from a position in which the other person is open to learning, and they know you have something to teach.
Doing so is regressing back to those lower level behaviors I mentioned before, and unless you absolutely have your facts in order, doing so may result in unfavorable dynamics.
So with that being said I think the natural progression from brashly disagreeing with someone, is Pacing and Leading.
It’s very simple, yet very effective. You acknowledge someones point of view, point out the aspects of their pov that are productive, and from there naturally segway into your frame using aspects of theirs.
This is the purest form of pacing and leading to me when it comes to frame control. It isn’t the “Okay I see but hear things my way” that’s more commonly used.
Here’s a demonstration:
In this demonstration you pace HB’s perspective and weave it throughout your own based on the values she deemed important to her. You open her/their mind to perspectives they may not have been aware of. And begin to erase the line between what they believe and what you believe.
When it comes to shifting behavior, or allowing future behavior this is key, because you’ve addressed concerns regarding it preemptively.
And though simply pacing and leading may not change their mind completely. It does dissolve frames a bit, and the person is much less likely to argue you down on it. Because you don’t trigger a defensive response.
You may see HB with a cat somewhere down the line.
What we are going for is understanding, when two perspectives are polar opposites, not total domination and agreement. Although this may happen as well.
Notice the lack of a combative tone when getting your point across. On the average people are much more susceptible to influence, when you do not force it onto them in a way that openly contradicts their perspectives. Or downplays their convictions in a negative undermining way.
It’s human nature, we all have egos and sometimes fall victim to an over emphasis on the self, and when your ego feels challenged, high self esteem/opinionated individuals tend to push back depending on who’s doing the pushing.
Very rarely will you run into self possessed people who don’t follow this fashion of behavior. Women sometimes especially. When shifting the frame focus on making your frame easier to swallow versus forcing it down their throat.
Pacing and Leading via empathy is a good way to do that. You need to be able to get out of your own personal ideology and view things creatively. You need to understand their perspective in full, make a note of what fuels their frame of mind, and gradually lead them away based on the values that are important to them.
Using the dog and cat analogy. To HB, loyalty was a key part of her frame. So telling her that cats have cool claws, won’t do much in terms of persuading her to viewing cats in a different light.
The applications of this are nearly universal.
Better ways to Control the Frame: Frame Shaming
This one is actually pretty common among persuasive individuals and in society in general. Frame shaming, or highlighting the potentially insecure aspects of someones frame.
Unlike pacing and leading you skip over empathy and shoot down a potential frame. By way of good fun or being deadly serious about it.
Most people want to fit in and don’t particularly like being painted in a negative light, especially when it’s sometimes ironically true to them at some level, and their frame isn’t very secure.
“Aren’t you too old for x?”
“I dont think grown men should x”
“Women your age should be”
“Most people don’t”
I’m sure you’ve seen or heard something like this. And although kind of insulting you can’t help but find it rings kind of true when painted in that light.
Not a fan favorite for me personally but I can’t deny it is a very effective way for changing behavior or shutting down frames. Particularly for when you are high status in their mind.
Questioning someones frame as if it were silly or stupid, shameful, or embarrassing. Works fairly well on people who hold you in high esteem.
By way of shaming someones frame you tempt them into changing by pointing out flaws in their frame, not in a way meant to be convincing, but as if it were foolish and you know better. Poking at the holes in their reasoning, in a way that resonates with them deep down.
Like I said not a fan favorite for me, and if used on you it’s fairly easy to turn the tables.
Frame shaming can quickly turn into something not conducive for seduction so it’s best used sparingly and largely depends on who you’re using it with.
It’s what you often see in arguments centered around masculinity, politics, and situations where it seems the moral high ground/social norms are being discussed.
Better ways to Control the Frame: Creative Reasoning / Drawing parallels
i’m a big fan of figurative language in general, and i’ve found it works fairly well when it comes to persuasion.
When you illustrate something in a way the other person can vibe with, it will sometimes alleviate any concerns they have and bring them into your frame.
Because in my experience these things boil down to a lack of perspective, and all it takes is you communicating in a language that they can understand, to highlight how you all are on the same page.
This may be my favorite out of aotb, and it allows you to later talk about the most mundane things, that actually mean something else entirely. Almost like talking in code.
Let’s say you’re talking to a girl who’s big on, IDK baking? HB has reservations on you taking more than one partner, because she herself has been reluctant to. Dating in that way might seem shallow to her.
Communicating in a language the other person can understand. So they can visualize and feel where you’re coming from. Talking like this will help them to connect the dots and broaden their perspective.
Better ways to Control the Frame: Pushing Hot Buttons
This term was pointed out to me by @TomInHo, a sales tactic in which you express your frame in a way that resonates with the other person.
I was wholly unaware that it existed as a tactic but would do it unconsciously when I felt like I knew who I was talking to.
Essentially when you are expressing your frame, you make inferences about values the other person holds, things they may be missing, or something that they yearn for.
This takes a bit of deductive reasoning and the ability to read a person. Knowing the implications in what you are expressing, and yet again, expressing it in a way that catches their attention.
Let’s say you’re talking to a girl who’s bored with her life. She may wish for excitement at some level.
But she also seems rather risk averse and may at some point self sabotage the dynamic between you and her.
Pushing hot buttons is as close to mind reading as you can get. It’s how redpill guys, sales people, guys like andrew tate, garner their audiences. They’re speaking to things you unconsciously want, and set themselves up as the conduit to these things.
Prerequisites to Controlling the Frame:
- I think the number one thing that should be accounted for is knowing who you are talking to. Knowing what they’ll likely respond to, and knowing potential things that may rub someone the wrong way. In that way you avoid setting frames that are too jarring, that are unnecessary to reinforce.
- Number two would be being able to remain calm under pressure. If there are certain topics you are sensitive or passionate about, the other person may very well rub you the wrong way. It’s important to stay calm so that you can keep a sense of objectivity. Being able to remain objective is key for seeing what direction things are going, and how you can get to your desired outcome.
- Number 3 goes back to one. Picking your battles and knowing when any of these things are needed to get your point across. Sometimes you’ve stated your case thoroughly and anything more would be overkill. This doesn’t mean your frames haven’t stuck. But sometimes it takes a little time for them to resonate with it. In this way sometimes less is more. See if you notice any changes nonverbally versus focusing on what’s being verbally expressed. This avoids any unnecessary confrontation, and subsequent dissonance that’d shut them down to your opinions.
These can be used in tandem and i’ve found they work fairly well for maintaining/strengthening frames.
Frame control is one of those things that has universal applications when it comes to the social atmosphere, it isn’t just used in seduction. So in that way, I think it’s very beneficial to have a good grasp on using it.
By no means does this cover everything, and there are other good posts here and on girlschase that have helped me out. But nevertheless hopefully this has given a fresh perspective on different ways.
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