FR Pulled but she got away (what the devil did I do wrong???)

[The Byronic Man]

Would appreciate any feedback. Trying to figure out my mistakes.

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I messaged her online. She only has 1 profile photo, and she's wearing shades and is kneeling next to a large iguana. Despite her shades, I can see she is naturally pretty (I don't like girls with a lot of makeup).

I actually looked up the name of her band. She's got some fame all over the West Coast...and as I suspected, she's very attractive (I try not to use 1-10 scale per Chase's article on getting perfect 10s, but for the sake of our report, I would give her a 9). I can't wait to meet her.

She later texts her schedule, and we set up the date for the following Saturday night at 8:30pm. I suggested a place close by my home, but she said she only has a bicycle due to her car being totaled, so I change venues to one close to her.

On date night, I tell her I'm running late (in reality, I made it a goal to finish Chase's eBook before the date, but I'm only 2/3rds finished) and push the date back a half hour. She tells me she's relieved because she's finishing up some work stuff. So I tell her to meet at 9:30pm so we don't rush.

15 minutes before our date, she calls and tells me that her bicycle got a flat tire. I'm thinking to myself this is one of the more interesting excuses I've heard, but I remain calm and ask her if she would like to reschedule or have me pick her up. She says it's probably best to reschedule, and I suggest I could pick her up in a public spot so she knows I'm not some stealth weirdo. She laughs, thinks about it, then tells me I can pick her up at her home. WTF, this is the second online chick to give out her home address to an online stranger? I don't know whether it's because they feel comfortable with me or what.

I get to her house and as I'm about to call her, she walks to my car. Wow, she is super attractive. Like model attractive! I don't think it made me nervous; rather, I make a mental note that I would work hard to get. I also immediately find out she has 1 housemate (trying to figure out pulling logistics early on).

When she got in the car, I think I should have made her hug me. Started the kino right away. But I didn't. Next time. I tell her I'm not familiar with her area, so I ask her to guide the way. After some driving around, we found parking. Parking's a bitch in her area. She also mentions something about a sausage restaurant she tried. I teased her about how she likes sausage.

As we walk to the wine bar, I comment about how her profile photo is not very revealing. She tells me she did that on purpose because she didn't want anyone to recognize her. I qualify her by explaining that I was drawn to her smile, the personality in her profile, and her overall vibe...but what sold it for me was when she said "womp womp" because I thought that was cute. The rest of the walk, and pretty much the rest of the night, I'm pretty good at having her initiate conversation and do most of the talking (I ain't afraid of the pregnant pause). While at the wine bar, she even at some point apologizes for blabbering on and on. I tell her it's cool. In hindsight, that was a poor reward. Her apology must also indicate something I did wrong, but I can't quite pinpoint it.

When we first got to the wine bar, we started to taste some wine. When they brought out the tasting glass, I gave it to her first to try. She told me I should try first because she has a cough and is sick. So I try the wine first and she tries it after me. I'm thinking at this time if this is some fake excuse to so I can't kiss or get intimate with her on the first date. Later on, I do think she's legitimately sick, because I later take a sip of her wine and she comments on how I might get sick. In hindsight, I should have capitalized on the moment by saying that's too bad because then we can't make out.

Kino I did: Guiding her with my hand on the small of her back, grabbing her hand to compare with mine noting how small her fingers are (her body language really opened up, so I knew she really liked this), playing with her hair to ask if she's really red-headed, and holding her close to me by wrapping my arms around her shoulders quite a number of times.

At the wine bar (and also in the car), I do deep dive her quite extensively, but I'm not sure if I did a good job relating. This stuff isn't intuitive for me. But I notice that she's nervous the whole time--a lot of brushing her hair and drinking her wine a lot (I hardly drank any of mine). I plant several seeds in our conversation as excuses to pull her. About an hour later, I feel it's time to pull, and I tell her that I'd like to see the novel she's working on. She tells me it's not ready enough...she doesn't get the hint, so I change topics. She asks about how to beatmatch (a DJ thing), and I tell her I can show her in person. Pulled!

I pay for both of our drinks (because I earlier promised that the first round is on me for being late, but also because I feel like she's not in a good financial situation if her car was totaled and she's on bike), and walk back to my car. Question for you guys: On first dates, do you walk women to the venue by holding her close around her shoulders or by holding her hands? What about when leaving the venue? I always do guide women through doors and whatnot with my hand on the small of their backs. What I did was that I held her close to me around her shoulders for 10 seconds then drop it. Did that a few times. Not sure if that push-pull dynamic did anything productive. In hindsight, I think I should keep holding her hands next time to solidify our bond? I read somewhere that sets up a provider expectation though. I also wanted to keep kino very light until she was somewhere I can have sex with her.

We drive back to my place, which is 15 minutes away. Along the way, I teasingly ask her if she's sick because she made out someone. When I get to my place, I give her water. As I'm setting up my DJ equipment to teach her how to beatmatch, I tell her it's too late in the evening to be playing music, so I start my music playlist (I'm not the only one noticing the irony here, right?) and we sit on my sofa. She asks how big the TV is, and I tease her that size matters for her. She laughs hard and tells me she really wants to know now. I tell her the size of the TV (probably could have ran with this a bit more, but didn't know how). She comments that she knows the band that is being played at the moment and blah blah blah I don't remember what else she's talking about, but I notice she's sitting upright nervously, so I wrap my arms around her shoulders and have her lean back with me. She continues to talk, and I take her water bottle and put it down on the table and go for the spontaneous kiss. She turns her head (and I forget what she says), so I chill, and 5 seconds later, go for the manhandle kiss. She resists hard and says it's too soon. Fuck! Did I not calibrate correctly? Or should I have tried to address her resistance (e.g. "too early for what?")? Did I not do enough kino escalation? I thought you don't need much kino escalation for the spontaneous kiss? I think maybe I wasn't quick enough in my kiss; I did take my time putting down her water bottle, which may have made her anticipate the kiss. Maybe I should used the sexual kiss instead...this chick was really damn hot so should have stuck with the safer sexual kiss.

Unfortunately, after getting rejected twice for the spontaneous kiss, she asks me to take her back home. I tried to reason with her to hang out and chill a bit longer, but now after re-reading Chase's kissing article, she must have felt uncomfortable now and wants to leave. I didn't want to push it too much since she is at my place, but I offer her to teach her how to beatmatch (so she doesn't think I'm upset), which she takes a liking to. We spend 15 minutes teaching her, and then I take her back home. When I get to her place, I ask if I could use her restroom. I push for it a bit (e.g. I really need to go). She says she really can't (ouch!).

My guesses on why and how I fucked up:

• She gave partial resistance (but for just a kiss???) and I failed to overcome her resistance.
• I didn't do the spontaneous kiss right, and if the spontaneous kiss failed the first time around, I should not go for it again since the spontaneous kiss works by surprise (i.e. remove the element of surprise, and it won't work).
• I didn't escalate kino enough to transition to a kiss.

Guess C is what I'm leaning on...or at least would be the safest route I should take in future dates. She did enjoy the kino I gave her while I taught her how to beatmatch; it almost seems like she wanted to stay and hoped that I made things work. What do you think?

I texted her right after dropping her off that I hope she feels better (since she was sick) and that I had a fun night. Ugh, probably should have texted something different...I'm not good with exits. She never responded back, which I'm not surprised. I don't think I'll be getting a second date with her. It's amazing how close you can be to seal the deal and yet so quickly make things sour! Argh!

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Any post mortem advice will be greatly appreciated here! Here to learn from my mistakes. Thanks!

Also, how I can salvage this? My guess is she feels really uncomfortable. I really dig this chick!

 

[PrettyDecent]

Hey Byronic,

I'd like to give this a go , though, someone correct me if need be. This is my guess:

She resists hard and says it's too soon.

This kinda represented her mentality through the whole date. It sounds like she was legitimately looking for a strict romantic man, rather than a romantic-sexual man. So my guess is you were put in boyfriend territory before the date even started, and the escalation was just way out of line with the expectations she had for you.

Anyways, the only other thing I saw was this:

She turns her head (and I forget what she says), so I chill, and 5 seconds later, go for the manhandle kiss.

5 seconds may have been too soon. If it were me, I would've waited a bit more than 5 minutes if she was very visibly uncomfortable.

Other than that, it sounds like you did do a lot of things right, so nice job either way

Jake

 

[Laowai]

You did a lot of things really, really well. I read through your FR and thought that those were the things that I would have done. - Checking her logistcs early on, seeding stuff to do at her and your place, deep-diving, kinoing are all very good.

Notice the good banter you have in your online start-up.

Make sure, as you say, to hug her when you meet her.

A number of things that stand out, though, are:

1) You tried to pull her her back to yours already an hour into the date? Well done in executing it and pulling it off - but it's very soon, and usually it's better to test her bounce compliance in smaller increments and bring her to at least two pre-planned venues first before attempting the bounce home.

2) she was clearly uncomfortable at your place, and that should have given you a better idea of what to expect. You can test her levels of comfort through her kino compliance and look for any stiffness in her body. You pulled her down with you on the couch (and she complied, a bit to my surprise) and then you started to try to kiss her. The problem was that she was uncomfortable at your place from the beginning and you should probably have waited longer to make your move / served her another drink / broken some of her tension through humour or some physical game or by whacking her with a pillow / put on a movie to distract her / started dancing with her to your latin music/ compared heights / etc.

3) the kiss... you went full frontal on a girl who was already uncomfortable. You could have started smelling her neck and her hair and tested for compliance, then work your way up to her lips. Also, as already noted, you reinitiated after only five seconds. Mystery's line on not-kissing: "I didn't say I'd let you", would have come in handy here. You should have waited at least ten minutes with reinitiating escalation.

She liked you from the start. Continue, and ping her some fun and non-needy texts once in a while. Keep us updated.
- Laowai

 

[The Byronic Man]

She resists hard and says it's too soon.

This kinda represented her mentality through the whole date. It sounds like she was legitimately looking for a strict romantic man, rather than a romantic-sexual man. So my guess is you were put in boyfriend territory before the date even started, and the escalation was just way out of line with the expectations she had for you.

Jake, how can you tell I was slotted into BF territory? Any recommendation on how to fixed that during the date? My guess is to just prove her wrong by being really challenging and edgy. I did try to throw in as much sexual jokes in without making her uncomfortable.

2) she was clearly uncomfortable at your place, and that should have given you a better idea of what to expect. You can test her levels of comfort through her kino compliance and look for any stiffness in her body. You pulled her down with you on the couch (and she complied, a bit to my surprise) and then you started to try to kiss her. The problem was that she was uncomfortable at your place from the beginning and you should probably have waited longer to make your move / served her another drink / broken some of her tension through humour or some physical game or by whacking her with a pillow / put on a movie to distract her / started dancing with her to your latin music/ compared heights / etc.

3) the kiss... you went full frontal on a girl who was already uncomfortable. You could have started smelling her neck and her hair and tested for compliance, then work your way up to her lips. Also, as already noted, you reinitiated after only five seconds. Mystery's line on not-kissing: "I didn't say I'd let you", would have come in handy here. You should have waited at least ten minutes with reinitiating escalation.

She liked you from the start. Continue, and ping her some fun and non-needy texts once in a while. Keep us updated.

So basically, I calibrated the kiss way off. I need to make sure she's feeling comfortable in my place first...even if it means breaking the "10 minute rule." I think I'm going to forego the 10-minute rule going forward because (1) I don't think I need it since it's meant for guys who hesitate and (2) it assumes she will be comfortable and primed within 10 minutes and I may sometimes need more than 10 minutes. Thoughts?

I take it that I should text her again in a few days...pretend like nothing happened, and basically start from scratch...challenge, playful, teasing, flirty texts that try to bait her to respond back, right?

 

[The Byronic Man]

Ha, I can't believe it, but I just got a text from her:

Thanks for a good night. Sorry I couldn't let you in. My roommate is not cool with people coming in late night, esp guys.

So maybe she is not completely feeling resentful...or she's just being polite (I've had girls go to great lengths to be polite with flaking on first dates). Gotta brush up on second date tactics.

 

[Laowai]

Awesome... she even thanks you for a good night. Also, one thing that I forgot to mention:

Fucking brilliant that you didn't react with disappointment that she didn't wanna kiss you then and there but wanted to go home. That one took me a million situations like that to learn where girls would leave my place just like in your FR again and again, and I reacted every time and let my disappointment show = bad.

In this case, I'd just proceed along the lines you already wrote out in your reply.

 

[The Byronic Man]

Thanks for the kind words, Laowai. I think I didn't come across as reactive. She actually even asked me if I was angry, and I calmly told her I was not. It was a bit awkward though because there was some silence in the conversation because I didn't know what to say (I was contemplating how to handle this new situation, but I was genuinely not mad because I knew I just had to correct things). To make sure she knew I was cool, I spent another 15 minutes with her teaching her how to beatmatch without pushing things (but I did have a lot of incidental kino...it was only natural I though). I hope she felt the same way.

 

[Laowai]

Cool. Sounds like you pulled it off then. Her not wanting you to come to her apartment sounds like a reasonable excuse. Also, you made the right move there too, trying to get into her place by using the classic "can I use your bathroom" excuse. You seem way more experienced than your your rating as space monkey would suggest.

One question, though... what the heck is "beatmatch"? - I'm from Denmark so I got no clue what you're talking about. Some awesome routine of sorts?

 

[The Byronic Man]

Cool. Sounds like you pulled it off then. Her not wanting you to come to her apartment sounds like a reasonable excuse. Also, you made the right move there too, trying to get into her place by using the classic "can I use your bathroom" excuse. You seem way more experienced than your your rating as space monkey would suggest.

One question, though... what the heck is "beatmatch"? - I'm from Denmark so I got no clue what you're talking about. Some awesome routine of sorts?

I don't know how the rating systems works, but I have a difficult time comparing myself with others, maybe because I have Asperger's Syndrome. I like to think I've largely overcome it, and people usually can't tell but I do get pegged as quirky sometimes. The fact that I've completely transformed myself (I directed my obsessive focus for the last 10+ years on the social arts) and now have social skills (not master level though, and occasionally still awkward) probably is what made me strong and confident. I feel like if I could overcome Asperger's, I can learn anything (within reason). Bottomline is that neuroplasticity allows me to adapt, but I naturally have a very unique way of thinking due to the way my brain is wired (can be an advantage because I'm naturally different from everyone). I also like to frame my condition in a Byronic light, hence my username.

Good question on "beatmatch" lol. Beatmatching is the manual method of DJs to match the tempos of 2 or more songs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatmatch

 

[PrettyDecent]

She resists hard and says it's too soon.

This kinda represented her mentality through the whole date. It sounds like she was legitimately looking for a strict romantic man, rather than a romantic-sexual man. So my guess is you were put in boyfriend territory before the date even started, and the escalation was just way out of line with the expectations she had for you.

Jake, how can you tell I was slotted into BF territory? Any recommendation on how to fixed that during the date? My guess is to just prove her wrong by being really challenging and edgy. I did try to throw in as much sexual jokes in without making her uncomfortable.

Laowai has everything covered and, as he said, it sounds like you still got this. Especially with that last text she sent you.

So perhaps my analysis was wrong, but I was trying to pinpoint exactly why she was so uncomfortable at your place, and it usually has to do with

A.) Her boyfriend zoning you (and not wanting to 'ruin' things by sleeping with you too early, or even be in your house)
or
B.) Pulling too early

I didn't read that you pulled an hour in, so that does make sense. Since she texted you back, it's proof that this isn't it. But if it was A, then there is really nothing you could have done, since she would've strictly have been looking for a romantic 3-date, wine-and-dine boyfriend, and being challenging or edgy would have just repelled her from you. As Laowai said, your date at the venue you were at was already top-shape.

Anyways, your FR does show you are no 'space monkey', my friend

Jake

 

[The Byronic Man]

Thanks for the compliment, Jake! I think the real test of whether I'm past Space Monkey is if I can consistently reproduce these results with women I meet in real life. It's easy to open and set up dates online. But I don't regret it one bit--I now have a bit of quality, varied dating experience, so I have more confidence backed by actual experience when approaching women in real life.

 

[Marty]

Hey Byron,

First, it has been extremely interesting and informative for me to read your report, and all the advice subsequently offered from the forum leadership.

Second, I may be completely off-base here (hard to get a feel for your vibe from the written word), but I've read most of what you've written on the forum over the last couple weeks, and I ask myself: Perhaps you're too much of an "asshole"? (In the technical sense of course, no offense intended!) Better than being a namby-pamby pushover by far, but there's just a few things that to me feel "off". For example, when you wrote in an earlier post that were unwilling (or at least reluctant) to drive a quarter-hour to meet a girl.

To take an example from the current interaction: Actually, I loved your joke about the wide-screen TV "does size matter to you?", I thought that was brilliant, witty and well-calibrated. But another one struck a wrong note for me. When she spoke about her favorite sausage restaurant, you giving her a hard time about liking sausage seems a little too obvious and crude. She doesn't need a witty, sophisticated, suave guy like you if she likes that sort of humor; she might just as well go out for the evening with a teenage boy. The way I'd have played it, it would've been something like this:

• "You like sausage... Really? And you an actress... Slim as a pin, where on Earth do you put it in there?" (indicating her figure)

That way, if she wants to pick up on the innuendo, she can... but in reality it's just an innocent comment about the contrast between eating fatty foods and having a figure to die for.

Just my 2¢.

I have to say I admire your ability to pick up girls online, I could never do that... I can't make an impression at all without the help of body language or at least tone of voice (telephone), and I'm hopeless at texting!

-Marty

 

[The Byronic Man]

Thanks, Marty. Really appreciate the honest feedback and will take what you say into consideration.

Interesting you think I may be too much of an asshole. You may be right, but if anything, I actually think I may be too nice. I look back at my interactions, and I think I could be more playful to make her more relaxed. I do like your take on the sausage joke better. I am relatively new to sexual innuendo, so I'm expecting myself to bomb at times, ha!

 

[The Byronic Man]

Going to text her for the 2nd date later today. Should I suggest meeting somewhere public (e.g. but more intimate than drinks, e.g. sushi) or cook dinner at my place? The latter is obviously most ideal, but I feel like she's not comfortable enough with that yet.

 

[The Byronic Man]

Never heard back from her. Might try one more text next week.

Looking back, while I clearly fucked up by not escalating enough to the kiss, I think I still could have actually sealed the deal. After showing her how to beatmatch for 15 minutes, she was comfortable with my touch, and I would stand really close to her looking at her (close enough to kiss) creating sexual tension. That could have been a sign that I could have continued with kino escalation as long as I gave her a reason to keep staying and then once I've escalated enough, I could have gone for the sexual kiss. By taking her back home, I took things backwards, which she is probably rationalizing that I wasn't her type or whatever.

I had a date last night where I wasn't prepared how to handle a woman steamrolling me with explicit value, and I auto-rejected myself, so I understand first-hand how it feels and the rationalization process. If this chick texted me for another date, I could feel myself feeling resentful and not wanting to see her despite her offer. Good to know how auto-rejection feels and how easily it happens.

 

[Chase]

Byronic-

Laowai and PrettyDecent have you well covered on this one already. Just one comment:

She continues to talk, and I take her water bottle and put it down on the table and go for the spontaneous kiss. She turns her head (and I forget what she says), so I chill, and 5 seconds later, go for the manhandle kiss. She resists hard and says it's too soon. Fuck! Did I not calibrate correctly? Or should I have tried to address her resistance (e.g. "too early for what?")? Did I not do enough kino escalation? I thought you don't need much kino escalation for the spontaneous kiss? I think maybe I wasn't quick enough in my kiss; I did take my time putting down her water bottle, which may have made her anticipate the kiss. Maybe I should used the sexual kiss instead...this chick was really damn hot so should have stuck with the safer sexual kiss.

How things play out are entirely dependent on whether you follow all the way through and get this kiss or not. Watch an old movie and you will see a woman struggling against the man as he grabs her, and he does not let her go until he kisses her. If you abort because she resists, she'll think she dodged a bullet; if she resists and you kiss her anyway, she'll usually melt.

If you're going to do it though, you've got to do it - you can't start, then stop halfway through. Imagine an old actor in a black-and-white film grabbing a girl, pulling her in for a kiss, she resists him, and then he lets her go. Looks kind of silly, right?

Now imagine he just plants one on her and lets her go. Different feel altogether.

You generally want to wait until she's more comfortable, however, if you're pressed for time or she only seems to be getting less comfortable as time goes on, it's best to just kiss her ASAP and see what happens.

Also - this one's not a full on manhandle kiss, but because he's basically trapping her and giving her no choice, it qualifies just about as well - watch this scene from Rocky (skip to about 2:30):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmyc_clvhSc

Classic big, muscly, dumb caveman trapping the pretty, nervous girl, and clubbing her over the head with it.

What this kiss basically communicates is, "I know what you want better than you do, and I'm going to give it to you," and when you pull it off, women really go nuts.

Chase

 

[The Byronic Man]

Wow, that's fantastic, Chase Thanks for breaking it down and troubleshooting! That Rocky video clip really helps me understand how the manhandle kiss should be...handled.