Reading novels = great fundamentals ?

[Wolfie]

Hey there fellas this is my first post so if you think something is wrong or want to correct me do let me know, would really appreciate it


On my journey to learn seduction, being a better man, understanding female psychology and most importantly being a lover of women I came across something which impacted my fundamentals massively

This is something which I believe can boost up your skills as a seducer and a lover of women and that is reading romance novels or erotic novels

Why read novels?

At first it might look like a boring piece of crap. But remember what hector castillo says you wanna give woman a romance stories. Don't bore them to death.

So read read and read or better yet listen to audiobooks, whatever chase and GC writers describe, lmr, shit test and drama and everything that relates to women is described in these novels.


The main purpose of reading a novel is to get into the character (male hero) try to feel his emotions, his thoughts, how he deals with shit tests, how he seduces her, how he handles her objection. This will help you a lot.

I personally started to be more dominant, more calm, more peaceful and most importantly my fundies skyrocketed in 3 months.

If you made it till here, great!

But now where should I go? What books to read or listen to. One suggestion I would give is if you can listen to audiobooks it would be amazing , it will give you a a glimpse of what a sexy and deep voice sounds like and you can practise that. Anyways here is the list

Note :-these are considered to be big bad alpha characters you may not understand the charactersistcs of the male protagonist unless you read articles on female psychology and have a basic understanding of the bad boy attraction. Read those on the site


Here's the list

1)Luca vitielo
Author - Cora Riley
Note - listen to audiobook, the narrators voice is fucking good
Theme - mafia romance novels

2)silver swan
Author - Amo Jones
Theme - romance bully

3)deviant King
Author - Rina Kent
Theme - romance bully

4)welcome to the dark side
Author - Gianna darling
Theme - age gap (okay it might disgust you yes it's an age gap novel, but understand that women want a mature man and you need to understand how mature men think, besides the character Zeus is a motorcycle gang leader and is 38----a great way to see how a leader behaves and women love leadership in a man )

5)Twisted pride
Author - cora Riley
Theme - mafia romance novel
(again listen to audiobook, you will know what a sexy voice sounds like)



another point i would like to add is read or listen to mafia romance novels instead of any other genre , especially for people who never stood up for themsleves or are tired of being a nice guy.


NO i dont want you to go and kill someone but live that life through those mafia romance novel books, it will make you strong for sure. Let these male characters teach you about women and masculinity


I think this is the best way to learn, ofc real life practice is second to none because these books are entertaining as well as it teaches you how to be a better man

Ohh want a bonus? It contains sex scenes too so you can try to implement those sex scenes with your girl it will spice things up


This is my first post and I wrote this post because the place I live, men are pathetic and they scare the crap out of women when they approach her and are socially uncalibareted and it makes me feel sad. So fellas do yourself and the women a favour by reading these novels and skyrocketing your fundies


Ciao
Wolfie

 

[Glow]

This is one of the most interesting posts ive seen in here in awhile. Resonates w some recent understandings ive done in other fields.

Yes to your pointers. And novels gives a more multifacetted input to topics that caters much more to human experience. Feeds the whole system more. Means reading novels will provide for a much broader mobilisation of us vs. only focussing on how to outlines so dominantly pursued in the community. Combining excellent pieces from both camps will be a strong combo. But novels will help with a huge missing part of learning. To see people we can mirror ourselves in etc.

One novel that i can recommend more straight from the community is "sleazy stories". Gave me a boldness when i read it that coupled with microescalations, mingling and lockin focus boosted me immensely in that period. And was darn interesting to read.

 

[ulrich]

There’s something new under the sun.
Great idea @Wolfie

 

[Skills]

Hey there fellas this is my first post so if you think something is wrong or want to correct me do let me know, would really appreciate it


On my journey to learn seduction, being a better man, understanding female psychology and most importantly being a lover of women I came across something which impacted my fundamentals massively

This is something which I believe can boost up your skills as a seducer and a lover of women and that is reading romance novels or erotic novels

Why read novels?

At first it might look like a boring piece of crap. But remember what hector castillo says you wanna give woman a romance stories. Don't bore them to death.

So read read and read or better yet listen to audiobooks, whatever chase and GC writers describe, lmr, shit test and drama and everything that relates to women is described in these novels.


The main purpose of reading a novel is to get into the character (male hero) try to feel his emotions, his thoughts, how he deals with shit tests, how he seduces her, how he handles her objection. This will help you a lot.

I personally started to be more dominant, more calm, more peaceful and most importantly my fundies skyrocketed in 3 months.

If you made it till here, great!

But now where should I go? What books to read or listen to. One suggestion I would give is if you can listen to audiobooks it would be amazing , it will give you a a glimpse of what a sexy and deep voice sounds like and you can practise that. Anyways here is the list

Note :-these are considered to be big bad alpha characters you may not understand the charactersistcs of the male protagonist unless you read articles on female psychology and have a basic understanding of the bad boy attraction. Read those on the site


Here's the list

1)Luca vitielo
Author - Cora Riley
Note - listen to audiobook, the narrators voice is fucking good
Theme - mafia romance novels

2)silver swan
Author - Amo Jones
Theme - romance bully

3)deviant King
Author - Rina Kent
Theme - romance bully

4)welcome to the dark side
Author - Gianna darling
Theme - age gap (okay it might disgust you yes it's an age gap novel, but understand that women want a mature man and you need to understand how mature men think, besides the character Zeus is a motorcycle gang leader and is 38----a great way to see how a leader behaves and women love leadership in a man )

5)Twisted pride
Author - cora Riley
Theme - mafia romance novel
(again listen to audiobook, you will know what a sexy voice sounds like)



another point i would like to add is read or listen to mafia romance novels instead of any other genre , especially for people who never stood up for themsleves or are tired of being a nice guy.


NO i dont want you to go and kill someone but live that life through those mafia romance novel books, it will make you strong for sure. Let these male characters teach you about women and masculinity


I think this is the best way to learn, ofc real life practice is second to none because these books are entertaining as well as it teaches you how to be a better man

Ohh want a bonus? It contains sex scenes too so you can try to implement those sex scenes with your girl it will spice things up


This is my first post and I wrote this post because the place I live, men are pathetic and they scare the crap out of women when they approach her and are socially uncalibareted and it makes me feel sad. So fellas do yourself and the women a favour by reading these novels and skyrocketing your fundies


Ciao
Wolfie

Interesting about the mafia angle that dude tony soprano is and act exactly like me.... great post, can you rate the books in ranking, before I buy it, deep voice super important and to play with tonality and change volume, glow has a post on this...

 

[Wolfie]

Interesting about the mafia angle that dude tony soprano is and act exactly like me.... great post, can you rate the books in ranking, before I buy it, deep voice super important and to play with tonality and change volume, glow has a post on this...

Pick any one of the given lists but if you are specifically interested in the mafia romance novels I would say get these in order :-

1)Luca vitielo

2)twisted pride

3)welcome to the dark side (unfortunately there's no audiobook for this)

Besides the one I mentioned in the list, there is another collection of mafia romance novels its called those boys are trouble penned by winter willows, she writes amazing sex scenes although her novels are more rushed up and not at normal pace, but the male protagonist are quite alpha

Ohh and also there is no need to purcahse these books search on youtube and you can download them.

 

[Orgasmatron]

Hey dude, this is great, thanks for the reading/listening list.

If this is the stuff chicks read and fantasise about then it's got to be good to know. It's basically porn for women isn't it?

I got a few books like this on my Kindle but but had no idea where to start so I just looked at Amazon best sellers list, so thanks for the pointers and suggestion about using audiobooks.

 

[Skills]

well guys i am almost finishing the first one, it is really not ideal, it may seem like that to guys that are a bit newer cause:
- alpha mafia types
-frame control etc...

^but this dude is totally not secret society but macho type, needy, chasing, onitis, jealous, possessive, side girls sabotage shit with main etc.. ..... I can see a bit of how can be use by totally nice guys, but is not the type of ideal character game role model you want to emulate....

to op and guys i would actually suggest the one that is called the Fountainhead that one is way better from a secret society seduction angle you want to emulate.... This are my 2 cents...

here is the fountainhead by ann ryan, the main character is more on the seducer type angle: https://www.amazon.com/The-Fountain...ountainhead+book+by+ann&qid=1633296615&sr=8-4

 

[Wolfie]

well guys i am almost finishing the first one, it is really not ideal, it may seem like that to guys that are a bit newer cause:
- alpha mafia types
-frame control etc...

^but this dude is totally not secret society but macho type, needy, chasing, onitis, jealous, possessive, side girls sabotage shit with main etc.. ..... I can see a bit of how can be use by totally nice guys, but is not the type of ideal character game role model you want to emulate....

to op and guys i would actually suggest the one that is called the Fountainhead that one is way better from a secret society seduction angle you want to emulate.... This are my 2 cents...

here is the fountainhead by ann ryan, the main character is more on the seducer type angle: https://www.amazon.com/The-Fountain...ountainhead+book+by+ann&qid=1633296615&sr=8-4

Hey man really thanks for your input, yes it's really much for beginners, I totally agree with you. I assume you read Luca vitiello by cora Riley, right?. Well I somewhat disagree with your point on your analysis of the character. You called him needy and chasing but the I believe that at some point that dude was asked if he would put the Familia first instead of the female protagonist and he says yes(indicating man on a mission), possessive and jealous yeah but I think girls like it when guys (high value guys or guys they are attracted to) are possessive, he wasn't needy, he was married to a girl who he didn't liked initially, he could have been mad at her and killed her or tortured her or some Shit, but he rarely got mad at her and worked out the situation even when she was giving him drama, he laughs it off as if she is silly and cute. Coming to side chick, I remember in an article written by chases where some guy was denied sex by his gf or wife and so he went to the side chick. The main male character Luca did the same respecting his needs he went to his side chick and fucked her also it got him pre-selection here and then the female protagonist got interested in it

 

[Wolfie]

Hey man really thanks for your input, yes it's really much for beginners, I totally agree with you. I assume you read Luca vitiello by cora Riley, right?. Well I somewhat disagree with your point on your analysis of the character. You called him needy and chasing but the I believe that at some point that dude was asked if he would put the Familia first instead of the female protagonist and he says yes(indicating man on a mission), possessive and jealous yeah but I think girls like it when guys (high value guys or guys they are attracted to) are possessive, he wasn't needy, he was married to a girl who he didn't liked initially, he could have been mad at her and killed her or tortured her or some Shit, but he rarely got mad at her and worked out the situation even when she was giving him drama, he laughs it off as if she is silly and cute. Coming to side chick, I remember in an article written by chases where some guy was denied sex by his gf or wife and so he went to the side chick. The main male character Luca did the same respecting his needs he went to his side chick and fucked her also it got him pre-selection here and then the female protagonist got interested in it

Another angle I viewed here, in the story Grace(the side chick) and aria (the main female protagonist) are described as hot and beautiful girls, check out hectors article on hot vs beautiful women i remember there is a point hector makes, he says hot girls will trap high value man with pussy, they will intoxicated him but beautiful women will make high value man wait for sex and he will wait

That's exactly what I noticed in the novel
Just replace this
High value man-Luca
Hot women - Grace
Beautiful women - Aria


I would love to hear from you skills, maybe you can point out some flaws in my thinking. Also thank you very much for finishing the first book and recommending us a better book .

 

[Skills]

Another angle I viewed here, in the story Grace(the side chick) and aria (the main female protagonist) are described as hot and beautiful girls, check out hectors article on hot vs beautiful women i remember there is a point hector makes, he says hot girls will trap high value man with pussy, they will intoxicated him but beautiful women will make high value man wait for sex and he will wait

That's exactly what I noticed in the novel
Just replace this
High value man-Luca
Hot women - Grace
Beautiful women - Aria


I would love to hear from you skills, maybe you can point out some flaws in my thinking. Also thank you very much for finishing the first book and recommending us a better book .

Man, i don't want to give the whole book in case guys are reading, but come on, he is on a sex rationing plan, does not get laid on honey moon... girl is scare, she denies him sex, he is overly macho, possessive, drooling all over her, she is scare of him, he chases after her... no secret society... when you get a chance read the fountain head, notice how the main dude acts and compare to this dude... When i game women as latin/half italian i need to bring up "no jealousy/macho" frames to keep the latin/italian possesive/macho stereotype...

 

[ferrero]

This is a great thread @Wolfie, and I suppose it’s only proper I make my comment-debut in this thread as well

The problem with many of these books is that they’re written by women, and they’re not written to be about good, smooth seductions from a male POV, or to be vicarious how-to guides for dudes that want to lay women consistently and with higher odds, they’re written to be juicy, enticing dramas from the female POV.

Most romance novels that are not drama-based are sex-based, and as such are focused on creating hot, intimate sexual fantasies come to life on paper, as opposed to illustrating a character – especially a male character of all things – with “Secret society” traits. Truth is most women’s romance writers have just as rudimentary an understanding of men as modern men have of women ;-)

To put it bluntly, us men - skilled and aspiring seducers, that is - are basically walking, talking, drama-squashing, story-destroying dildos in the world of female romance writers.

My experience so far is that I’ve not come across a character who inhabits secret society traits outside of Casanova, who even then is quite too emotional for me at times (though he does move on quickly from his emotions, which is good).

If I could only recommend one book for every man of a certain ilk to read, it would be My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday. Most of you are, I’m sure well aware of it. It is a book which will shatter any preconceived illusions you may have had about women and their sexuality and will truly give you a kick in the pants to get out there and meet and seduce some hot, horny ladies

However, as most of you are familiar with Nancy Friday, I’ll also recommend:

The Surrender, by Toni Bentley – one woman’s tale of sexual awakening – she describes her anal adventures as akin to a spiritual journey—I believe her exact words are something like “… my spiritual journey had begun, and I had found God, and as luck would have it He was fucking my asshole to High Heaven…*” (just to give you a little taste of her writing).

This book is kinda flowery, and mostly just about her journey and fucking and not really about seduction — though Bentley does indirectly show us an archetype of who she dates vs. who she fucks, i.e., the nice guy vs. the lover, so we can extrapolate from that what we need to and apply it to ourselves, if so desired.

*not an actual quote, more of a paraphrase, or a gist

Intimate, by Jason Luke – this is one that I would recommend – basically a male writer guiding his female readers through a journey of pleasurable eroticism. Decent in the sense of taking a guide or mentor role, but not necessarily very seductive imo. He should have lead more with the fact that he’s a “Master” (i.e., sexually prized himself) and also addressed women’s feelings (i.e., letting them feel okay being naughty sharing their fantasies with him). Basically, it seems like he’s relying too much on past reputation vs. calibrating to new readers – at least, that’s how I read it.

(PS I believe Luke does his own voiceover and I did not like his samples on YouTube.)

It’s still good though – and I believe the book that Luke wrote before Intimate is supposed to be quite good as well, and I actually imagine it to be a lot more Dom-centric, as implied by the title, Interview with a Master. I will get that one eventually but right now I’m pretty loaded up in the book queue department.

On my list to read:

Philosophy in the Boudoir, by Marquis de Sade – it’s on Alek’s list; looks good and tasty and totally debauched and depraved, and I’m sure de Sade exhibits solid frame control throughout the book, but I cannot comment on it yet.

I have this book already, and it is next for me after Fifty Shades and My Secret Garden

Big Rock, by Lauren Blakely – ight, I know I said books written by women are terrible for us seducers, and the writing and the way the main character describes himself are borderline cringe inducing, but I’d wager this is probably the closest you’ll get to finding a good one.

As a bonus, the audiobook narrator (Sebastian York) is the same one from OP’s first book, and judging by the comments a lot of women do indeed love his voice. I personally don’t all that much, I prefer a bit more dynamism but that’s not to say that someone else won’t like it more than I did.

In this sample audio on YT, the story’s narrator notes how so many guys make uncalibrated approaches, and how he knows what women really want (similar to what the OP says - where he’s from men make these kinds of approaches).

I should note the story is apparently fantastical in a similar way to Fifty Shades of Grey: young rich cocky guy falls for a relatively Plain-Jane (in this case a friend he swears to never date or sleep with), but I admit their cheesy dynamic seems kinda cute from the snippet I’ve heard, as they have each others backs through-and-through and while he’s protective of her, and she of him, they avoid becoming entangled in one another’s love life’s, almost like Joey and Phoebe from Friends – though that is not what my own personal aim is if I’m being frank here; my advice here would be to take what is good, and discard what is useless.

Honorable mention:

Fifty Shades of Grey, by EL James – worth it to read simply to understand what all the fuss is about. I’m only about halfway through and it’s not great, but also not terrible; there’s some good and useful stuff in there and some that is just pure fantasy—which is what it is after all. I think it’s better than a lot of people give it credit for, tbh. But I would also not do half the shit Grey does (i.e., dude chases a Plane-Jane ass biatch, big no-no for me, but it’s a tempting fantasy for women to want a man that would do literally anything for them. Of course, that's not what they'd really want in reality, but these books are not exactly realistic in their aims, either.)



I’ve probably got a dozen or so more reads I wanna get to after this – and I now have to add The Fountainhead as per skills’ recommendation (which I luckily already have from a box set when I purchased Atlas Shrugged) – but I admit it’s because I’m a slow reader and sometimes deal with . . . well, you may see it in future posts of mine. Don’t want to reveal too much here right now ;-)

That’s it for me, though I’d love to hear others’ recommendations for books, mainly those with characters that demonstrate A) exemplary frame control, and especially B) a character that demonstrates an effective use of micro-escalations or a progressive and smooth seduction. Thanks again to the OP @Wolfie, this is a great convo starter

 

[Wolfie]

This is a great thread @Wolfie, and I suppose it’s only proper I make my comment-debut in this thread as well

The problem with many of these books is that they’re written by women, and they’re not written to be about good, smooth seductions from a male POV, or to be vicarious how-to guides for dudes that want to lay women consistently and with higher odds, they’re written to be juicy, enticing dramas from the female POV.

Most romance novels that are not drama-based are sex-based, and as such are focused on creating hot, intimate sexual fantasies come to life on paper, as opposed to illustrating a character – especially a male character of all things – with “Secret society” traits. Truth is most women’s romance writers have just as rudimentary an understanding of men as modern men have of women ;-)

To put it bluntly, us men - skilled and aspiring seducers, that is - are basically walking, talking, drama-squashing, story-destroying dildos in the world of female romance writers.

My experience so far is that I’ve not come across a character who inhabits secret society traits outside of Casanova, who even then is quite too emotional for me at times (though he does move on quickly from his emotions, which is good).

If I could only recommend one book for every man of a certain ilk to read, it would be My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday. Most of you are, I’m sure well aware of it. It is a book which will shatter any preconceived illusions you may have had about women and their sexuality and will truly give you a kick in the pants to get out there and meet and seduce some hot, horny ladies

However, as most of you are familiar with Nancy Friday, I’ll also recommend:

The Surrender, by Toni Bentley – one woman’s tale of sexual awakening – she describes her anal adventures as akin to a spiritual journey—I believe her exact words are something like “… my spiritual journey had begun, and I had found God, and as luck would have it He was fucking my asshole to High Heaven…*” (just to give you a little taste of her writing).

This book is kinda flowery, and mostly just about her journey and fucking and not really about seduction — though Bentley does indirectly show us an archetype of who she dates vs. who she fucks, i.e., the nice guy vs. the lover, so we can extrapolate from that what we need to and apply it to ourselves, if so desired.

*not an actual quote, more of a paraphrase, or a gist

Intimate, by Jason Luke – this is one that I would recommend – basically a male writer guiding his female readers through a journey of pleasurable eroticism. Decent in the sense of taking a guide or mentor role, but not necessarily very seductive imo. He should have lead more with the fact that he’s a “Master” (i.e., sexually prized himself) and also addressed women’s feelings (i.e., letting them feel okay being naughty sharing their fantasies with him). Basically, it seems like he’s relying too much on past reputation vs. calibrating to new readers – at least, that’s how I read it.

(PS I believe Luke does his own voiceover and I did not like his samples on YouTube.)

It’s still good though – and I believe the book that Luke wrote before Intimate is supposed to be quite good as well, and I actually imagine it to be a lot more Dom-centric, as implied by the title, Interview with a Master. I will get that one eventually but right now I’m pretty loaded up in the book queue department.

On my list to read:

Philosophy in the Boudoir, by Marquis de Sade – it’s on Alek’s list; looks good and tasty and totally debauched and depraved, and I’m sure de Sade exhibits solid frame control throughout the book, but I cannot comment on it yet.

I have this book already, and it is next for me after Fifty Shades and My Secret Garden

Big Rock, by Lauren Blakely – ight, I know I said books written by women are terrible for us seducers, and the writing and the way the main character describes himself are borderline cringe inducing, but I’d wager this is probably the closest you’ll get to finding a good one.

As a bonus, the audiobook narrator (Sebastian York) is the same one from OP’s first book, and judging by the comments a lot of women do indeed love his voice. I personally don’t all that much, I prefer a bit more dynamism but that’s not to say that someone else won’t like it more than I did.

In this sample audio on YT, the story’s narrator notes how so many guys make uncalibrated approaches, and how he knows what women really want (similar to what the OP says - where he’s from men make these kinds of approaches).

I should note the story is apparently fantastical in a similar way to Fifty Shades of Grey: young rich cocky guy falls for a relatively Plain-Jane (in this case a friend he swears to never date or sleep with), but I admit their cheesy dynamic seems kinda cute from the snippet I’ve heard, as they have each others backs through-and-through and while he’s protective of her, and she of him, they avoid becoming entangled in one another’s love life’s, almost like Joey and Phoebe from Friends – though that is not what my own personal aim is if I’m being frank here; my advice here would be to take what is good, and discard what is useless.

Honorable mention:

Fifty Shades of Grey, by EL James – worth it to read simply to understand what all the fuss is about. I’m only about halfway through and it’s not great, but also not terrible; there’s some good and useful stuff in there and some that is just pure fantasy—which is what it is after all. I think it’s better than a lot of people give it credit for, tbh. But I would also not do half the shit Grey does (i.e., dude chases a Plane-Jane ass biatch, big no-no for me, but it’s a tempting fantasy for women to want a man that would do literally anything for them. Of course, that's not what they'd really want in reality, but these books are not exactly realistic in their aims, either.)



I’ve probably got a dozen or so more reads I wanna get to after this – and I now have to add The Fountainhead as per skills’ recommendation (which I luckily already have from a box set when I purchased Atlas Shrugged) – but I admit it’s because I’m a slow reader and sometimes deal with . . . well, you may see it in future posts of mine. Don’t want to reveal too much here right now ;-)

That’s it for me, though I’d love to hear others’ recommendations for books, mainly those with characters that demonstrate A) exemplary frame control, and especially B) a character that demonstrates an effective use of micro-escalations or a progressive and smooth seduction. Thanks again to the OP @Wolfie, this is a great convo starter

Yup some of the books you mentioned are there actually on my reading list. Yes I agree with you it's mostly written by women so there is a bit of a problem. I personally got into erotica novels because I learn more through imagination and stories.

On a second thought i need your guys to tell me if I should delete this post, since it may misguide the newbies and I don't want to pass on or give out any wrong information. Please help me out here

 

[ferrero]

Yup some of the books you mentioned are there actually on my reading list. Yes I agree with you it's mostly written by women so there is a bit of a problem. I personally got into erotica novels because I learn more through imagination and stories.

On a second thought i need your guys to tell me if I should delete this post, since it may misguide the newbies and I don't want to pass on or give out any wrong information. Please help me out here

Nah it's fine, it's a good post I think you can leave it up. It's good for all levels - plus it will be good to hear some more book suggestions.

 

[Derek da man]

@Wolfie leave the post up - it's a good source of info, recommendations, discussion

If this is the stuff chicks read and fantasise about then it's got to be good to know. It's basically porn for women isn't it?

Ohh want a bonus? It contains sex scenes too so you can try to implement those sex scenes with your girl it will spice things up

yes books are a great source for inspiration, techniques and ideas especially of what women want

My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday

shows a much darker side than I had ever realised

. . . . but remember books are written to "sell" so are usually written to entice sales by titillating the reader and taking them on an emotional journey - usually women as they enjoy emotional stimulation much more than visual which is where most men are.

All good things and helpful with women but they won't break it down into an understanding of the processes going on behind the story and won't help unless you are very good at analytics which some of us, me included, aren't. It's easy to get too involved in a situation and not be able to take a broader reflective view from outside of it. It won't help with calibration, LMR, ASD and so on. Articles on GC and other forum posts are also important for self development and improving results.

Therefore reading novels develops your understanding of process and skills with some additional ideas etc. It may also give new ideas of how to improve your fundamentals but for most beginners and newbies they don't have the ability to break things down and will need a good understanding of what fundamentals are before reading too much, and will also need a broader awareness and understanding of the other aspects that contribute to the seduction process.

 

[Glow]

Yup some of the books you mentioned are there actually on my reading list. Yes I agree with you it's mostly written by women so there is a bit of a problem. I personally got into erotica novels because I learn more through imagination and stories.

On a second thought i need your guys to tell me if I should delete this post, since it may misguide the newbies and I don't want to pass on or give out any wrong information. Please help me out here

Dont remove it. its core point is really good. You have started a great discussion. The novels are fine if read with a certain consciousness to what they represent.

@timos outline is great and more books on understanding key areas(bedroom, female sexual fantasies) and some guidance imo which is good too. But novels provide for something important that these cannot. A novels representation of characters etc provide for a stronger mirroring experience on many levels - all the juice or fractional details and nuances between the lines that guidance book only weakly represents even if they chime in on it. its multidimensional in a way that touches us on many levels.

For me different book types provide different things and each needs to be considered. The game itself was powerful cause we could really se ourselves in the shoes of neils, relate to his feelings and frustrations as his aspirations. Fuelled something very important for many. Outlines on specific "to dos" gives other dimensions and the understand and area type books eg nancy friday can really help understand and area while also getting concrete understandings from the fantasy descriptions of women to get to know their wet dreams. Just to say dont make too hard conclusions on this yet. Lets consider what different type of books can provide.

Also to the seek "male seducers instructions on women" is something i would keep cool on. Good at its source - yes but its also a bit of a community dogma. One key is to understand womens world for us and not stay in the male seduces female ignorance that so many in the community has. This allows for true mutuality in seductions which is far more powerful than "guy does things to women". The romance novel peaks into the aspired wishes and dreams of many women. Once you start understanding women truly whole new levels arise. Its also important to see this irl.

Point being - seek several sources consider different books value as to what it informs in us. At the moment we have
- Instructional ( most pu books) - actions to take with limited understanding
- Broader Area understanding (nancy friday, in the bedroom) - understanding and slight activation
- Novels (the game, Sleazy stories, mafia romance novels) - wider understanding and activation of the pua

im sure we could develop this more - just initial thoughts.

 

[Skills]

This is a great thread @Wolfie, and I suppose it’s only proper I make my comment-debut in this thread as well

The problem with many of these books is that they’re written by women, and they’re not written to be about good, smooth seductions from a male POV, or to be vicarious how-to guides for dudes that want to lay women consistently and with higher odds, they’re written to be juicy, enticing dramas from the female POV.

Most romance novels that are not drama-based are sex-based, and as such are focused on creating hot, intimate sexual fantasies come to life on paper, as opposed to illustrating a character – especially a male character of all things – with “Secret society” traits. Truth is most women’s romance writers have just as rudimentary an understanding of men as modern men have of women ;-)

To put it bluntly, us men - skilled and aspiring seducers, that is - are basically walking, talking, drama-squashing, story-destroying dildos in the world of female romance writers.

My experience so far is that I’ve not come across a character who inhabits secret society traits outside of Casanova, who even then is quite too emotional for me at times (though he does move on quickly from his emotions, which is good).

If I could only recommend one book for every man of a certain ilk to read, it would be My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday. Most of you are, I’m sure well aware of it. It is a book which will shatter any preconceived illusions you may have had about women and their sexuality and will truly give you a kick in the pants to get out there and meet and seduce some hot, horny ladies

However, as most of you are familiar with Nancy Friday, I’ll also recommend:

The Surrender, by Toni Bentley – one woman’s tale of sexual awakening – she describes her anal adventures as akin to a spiritual journey—I believe her exact words are something like “… my spiritual journey had begun, and I had found God, and as luck would have it He was fucking my asshole to High Heaven…*” (just to give you a little taste of her writing).

This book is kinda flowery, and mostly just about her journey and fucking and not really about seduction — though Bentley does indirectly show us an archetype of who she dates vs. who she fucks, i.e., the nice guy vs. the lover, so we can extrapolate from that what we need to and apply it to ourselves, if so desired.

*not an actual quote, more of a paraphrase, or a gist

Intimate, by Jason Luke – this is one that I would recommend – basically a male writer guiding his female readers through a journey of pleasurable eroticism. Decent in the sense of taking a guide or mentor role, but not necessarily very seductive imo. He should have lead more with the fact that he’s a “Master” (i.e., sexually prized himself) and also addressed women’s feelings (i.e., letting them feel okay being naughty sharing their fantasies with him). Basically, it seems like he’s relying too much on past reputation vs. calibrating to new readers – at least, that’s how I read it.

(PS I believe Luke does his own voiceover and I did not like his samples on YouTube.)

It’s still good though – and I believe the book that Luke wrote before Intimate is supposed to be quite good as well, and I actually imagine it to be a lot more Dom-centric, as implied by the title, Interview with a Master. I will get that one eventually but right now I’m pretty loaded up in the book queue department.

On my list to read:

Philosophy in the Boudoir, by Marquis de Sade – it’s on Alek’s list; looks good and tasty and totally debauched and depraved, and I’m sure de Sade exhibits solid frame control throughout the book, but I cannot comment on it yet.

I have this book already, and it is next for me after Fifty Shades and My Secret Garden

Big Rock, by Lauren Blakely – ight, I know I said books written by women are terrible for us seducers, and the writing and the way the main character describes himself are borderline cringe inducing, but I’d wager this is probably the closest you’ll get to finding a good one.

As a bonus, the audiobook narrator (Sebastian York) is the same one from OP’s first book, and judging by the comments a lot of women do indeed love his voice. I personally don’t all that much, I prefer a bit more dynamism but that’s not to say that someone else won’t like it more than I did.

In this sample audio on YT, the story’s narrator notes how so many guys make uncalibrated approaches, and how he knows what women really want (similar to what the OP says - where he’s from men make these kinds of approaches).

I should note the story is apparently fantastical in a similar way to Fifty Shades of Grey: young rich cocky guy falls for a relatively Plain-Jane (in this case a friend he swears to never date or sleep with), but I admit their cheesy dynamic seems kinda cute from the snippet I’ve heard, as they have each others backs through-and-through and while he’s protective of her, and she of him, they avoid becoming entangled in one another’s love life’s, almost like Joey and Phoebe from Friends – though that is not what my own personal aim is if I’m being frank here; my advice here would be to take what is good, and discard what is useless.

Honorable mention:

Fifty Shades of Grey, by EL James – worth it to read simply to understand what all the fuss is about. I’m only about halfway through and it’s not great, but also not terrible; there’s some good and useful stuff in there and some that is just pure fantasy—which is what it is after all. I think it’s better than a lot of people give it credit for, tbh. But I would also not do half the shit Grey does (i.e., dude chases a Plane-Jane ass biatch, big no-no for me, but it’s a tempting fantasy for women to want a man that would do literally anything for them. Of course, that's not what they'd really want in reality, but these books are not exactly realistic in their aims, either.)



I’ve probably got a dozen or so more reads I wanna get to after this – and I now have to add The Fountainhead as per skills’ recommendation (which I luckily already have from a box set when I purchased Atlas Shrugged) – but I admit it’s because I’m a slow reader and sometimes deal with . . . well, you may see it in future posts of mine. Don’t want to reveal too much here right now ;-)

That’s it for me, though I’d love to hear others’ recommendations for books, mainly those with characters that demonstrate A) exemplary frame control, and especially B) a character that demonstrates an effective use of micro-escalations or a progressive and smooth seduction. Thanks again to the OP @Wolfie, this is a great convo starter

Yeah leave the post of but this is excellent disclaimer of some of the problems with the books..... I just think you have to be careful in trying to emulate some of the stuff those characters do wrong, which is a lot lol! But they also do a lot right cause women are telling under the radar how they see seduction and wish to be seduced (most of the main characters are kind of dick/bad boys that become total pussies with the main character women) that is the part i kind of have issues with,, so just be careful...

 

[Glow]

Yeah leave the post of but this is excellent disclaimer of some of the problems with the books..... I just think you have to be careful in trying to emulate some of the stuff those characters do wrong, which is a lot lol! But they also do a lot right cause women are telling under the radar how they see seduction and wish to be seduced (most of the main characters are kind of dick/bad boys that become total pussies with the main character women) that is the part i kind of have issues with,, so just be careful...

exactly

but they can also be relatable and read to mirror peoples own mistakes in a period which is GOOD to learn about and thus give insight to a certain pua levels struggles or issues without giving the answer. Instigate reflection. Thats what happened w me when i read sleazy stories. I was inspired and awoken on some levels, but also saw issues w what he was doing.

Half the job is to read reflectively or ask questions, not blindly follow things as you point out well.

 

[ferrero]

My Secret Garden by Nancy Friday

shows a much darker side than I had ever realised

Yep it’s great isn’t it

. . . . but remember books are written to "sell" so are usually written to entice sales by titillating the reader and taking them on an emotional journey - usually women as they enjoy emotional stimulation much more than visual which is where most men are.

All good things and helpful with women but they won't break it down into an understanding of the processes going on behind the story and won't help unless you are very good at analytics which some of us, me included, aren't. It's easy to get too involved in a situation and not be able to take a broader reflective view from outside of it. It won't help with calibration, LMR, ASD and so on. Articles on GC and other forum posts are also important for self development and improving results.

I agree.

In fact, my actual recommended reading would look something like:

• Girlschase.com
• Articles by Author: Alek Rolstad
• Articles by Author: Daniel Adebayo
• Articles by Author: Chase Amante
• Articles by Author: Allen Reyes
• theskillsmethod.com

… and so on

Therefore reading novels develops your understanding of process and skills with some additional ideas etc. It may also give new ideas of how to improve your fundamentals but for most beginners and newbies they don't have the ability to break things down and will need a good understanding of what fundamentals are before reading too much

I agree. I don’t think fundamentals can be learned effectively from novels, almost at all, to be honest. Especially how to go about doing / improving on them. These characters are not “working on” themselves, they’re already fundamentally sound.

and will also need a broader awareness and understanding of the other aspects that contribute to the seduction process.

Yes, I agree. I do not think these are touched on very much in many of these books either, and if they are it’s not done with conscious intent. That’s what GC and real-world experience is for. Of course, that’s venturing beyond novel-territory here but I totally agree with what you’re saying

@timos outline is great and more books on understanding key areas(bedroom, female sexual fantasies) and some guidance imo which is good too. But novels provide for something important that these cannot. A novels representation of characters etc provide for a stronger mirroring experience on many levels - all the juice or fractional details and nuances between the lines that guidance book only weakly represents even if they chime in on it. its multidimensional in a way that touches us on many levels.

For me different book types provide different things and each needs to be considered. The game itself was powerful cause we could really se ourselves in the shoes of neils, relate to his feelings and frustrations as his aspirations. Fuelled something very important for many. Outlines on specific "to dos" gives other dimensions and the understand and area type books eg nancy friday can really help understand and area while also getting concrete understandings from the fantasy descriptions of women to get to know their wet dreams. Just to say dont make too hard conclusions on this yet. Lets consider what different type of books can provide.

Yes, that’s a great point, always remain open.

I won’t stop reading novels, of course, or come to too hard conclusions about them – some of these I will quite enjoy on my own time, away from pickup and seduction – though I would like some recs for something. . . “harder”, as in something along the lines of a novel where a male character seduces a woman using high-odds game. I personally have not found one like this yet.

Also to the seek "male seducers instructions on women" is something i would keep cool on. Good at its source - yes but its also a bit of a community dogma. One key is to understand womens world for us and not stay in the male seduces female ignorance that so many in the community has. This allows for true mutuality in seductions which is far more powerful than "guy does things to women". The romance novel peaks into the aspired wishes and dreams of many women. Once you start understanding women truly whole new levels arise. Its also important to see this irl.

Fuck yeah one-hundred percent agree, that’s why some of us are here seeking understanding. As I said, I do enjoy these books on my own -- they're an education on women - from women - in their own right. Great point.

A little off topic but, what would be the male equivalent of the female romance / erotic novel?

Yeah leave the post of but this is excellent disclaimer of some of the problems with the books..... I just think you have to be careful in trying to emulate some of the stuff those characters do wrong, which is a lot lol!

I agree it’s a good post, lots of good discussion being stimulated.

I do not think you should “emulate” any character per se, to be honest, with the exception of what you see in-person that works in real life – i.e., winging a good natural, or seeing a good PUA at work (which I suppose would not be considered “characters” but you know what I mean, and I know what you are getting at, too ).

But they also do a lot right cause women are telling under the radar how they see seduction and wish to be seduced (most of the main characters are kind of dick/bad boys that become total pussies with the main character women) that is the part i kind of have issues with,, so just be careful...

Yep, funny how that works huh take the good, leave the bad… and cut out the last 50 pages or so of a 250-page romance novel ;-)

I think what it really shows is that women would want a guy rounding out to be in a LTR with, embodying some of the more useful feminine traits, for ex: gentleness, empathic, caring, understanding of their needs, etc. … vs. just being the hard-all-the-time bad boy, but of course women writers have shortcomings in their understanding of these traits in men and especially in seducers (as they’ve probably not been able to attract a skilled seducer themselves, nor have they ventured into this world to understand us), and so they end up overly betasizing their beloved bad boys

 

[Skills]

Yep it’s great isn’t it


I agree.

In fact, my actual recommended reading would look something like:

• Girlschase.com
• Articles by Author: Alek Rolstad
• Articles by Author: Daniel Adebayo
• Articles by Author: Chase Amante
• Articles by Author: Allen Reyes
• theskillsmethod.com

… and so on


I agree. I don’t think fundamentals can be learned effectively from novels, almost at all, to be honest. Especially how to go about doing / improving on them. These characters are not “working on” themselves, they’re already fundamentally sound.


Yes, I agree. I do not think these are touched on very much in many of these books either, and if they are it’s not done with conscious intent. That’s what GC and real-world experience is for. Of course, that’s venturing beyond novel-territory here but I totally agree with what you’re saying


Yes, that’s a great point, always remain open.

I won’t stop reading novels, of course, or come to too hard conclusions about them – some of these I will quite enjoy on my own time, away from pickup and seduction – though I would like some recs for something. . . “harder”, as in something along the lines of a novel where a male character seduces a woman using high-odds game. I personally have not found one like this yet.


Fuck yeah one-hundred percent agree, that’s why some of us are here seeking understanding. As I said, I do enjoy these books on my own -- they're an education on women - from women - in their own right. Great point.

A little off topic but, what would be the male equivalent of the female romance / erotic novel?


I agree it’s a good post, lots of good discussion being stimulated.

I do not think you should “emulate” any character per se, to be honest, with the exception of what you see in-person that works in real life – i.e., winging a good natural, or seeing a good PUA at work (which I suppose would not be considered “characters” but you know what I mean, and I know what you are getting at, too ).


Yep, funny how that works huh take the good, leave the bad… and cut out the last 50 pages or so of a 250-page romance novel ;-)

I think what it really shows is that women would want a guy rounding out to be in a LTR with, embodying some of the more useful feminine traits, for ex: gentleness, empathic, caring, understanding of their needs, etc. … vs. just being the hard-all-the-time bad boy, but of course women writers have shortcomings in their understanding of these traits in men and especially in seducers (as they’ve probably not been able to attract a skilled seducer themselves, nor have they ventured into this world to understand us), and so they end up overly betasizing their beloved bad boys

Actually most of my early onitis were me bad boy natural scumbag trying to show that I am quitting my ways for her to be my girlfriend = onitis, that delay seduction lay once in a relationship not good frames...