Rust

[AFCnoob]

So, I'm "seeing" this girl now, and I've never been comfortable actively pursuing more than oen girl at once, so it's kind of "exclusive by default". Normally, I would have absolutely no problem with that, but now---I have no chance to practice PU!

I'm still paying careful attention to everything I was before both in my private and social life, moving toward being a strong, sexy man---but I'm not letting myself engage any girls. As gut-wrenchingly stressful as interactions could be, I actually enjoyed the challenge--but now I've got nothing. I can almost feel my skills--which were quite dull to begin with--rusting over.

I guess I could still engage girls, chat them up, number close, etc. etc., but I don't feel "the fear" unless I'm actively trying to get a girl home and close with a girl. Also, I don't push nearly as hard as I should if I'm not planning to close, aaaaand, even if I do get a really good interaction going, I'm sure to send girls straight into auto rejection when I don't subsequently call or contact them at all (I'm lookin' at you, [Una]).

It kinda sucks, but not enough to throw away all the progress and work I've put into my current, ongoing situation. What's an aspiring PU who's got himself mired in a pseudo-relationship to do?

 

[Just_Dave]

Take the Lead

Hey AFCnoob,

So let me get this straight, you guys are doing a casual relationship? If that's really that case, I would say keep approaching woman as you normally would. When you say "mired into a pseudo-relationship", I want to remind you that you are the man! No one can make you do anything you don't want to do, and you should be leading the relationship and taking the lead.

Just Dave

 

[Trilogy]

Hey there AFC, congrats on your new girl! I remember hearing on one of Chase's Seduction Sensei recordings about how women are still being hit on on even when they're in a relationship but guys tend to "settle down" and not be as acitve in pick up. I believe the advice given was to keep your attraction level up as well, continue talking to girls and flirting a little to keep your game skills in shape. Since you have a girlfriend now, your value in the eyes of other women has probably gone up, so why not make use of it.

Don't know which audio edition it was, but it was a good piece of advice, so I apologize if didn't recall exactly what was said.

 

[AFCnoob]

@ Just_Dave:

You're right. It actually seems that we're in an "undefined" relationship, but this girl clearly wants to be exclusive (even though she'd never say so). I am however running into problems for the same reason that I always run into them: I'm conflicted in what I want. On the one hand, this girl is great, and we have a lot of fun together (a lot of fun), but she's--how do I say...a bit negative and rather intense--and she's developing rather strong feelings rather quickly (not surprising, given the sh*t ton of time we've been spending together).

I'm not really ready for a relationship of this magnitude, but I don't want to lose her, and there doesn't seem to be any way to hit the "pause" button on things, heh. So yeah, my fault for not solidifying my intent before going into the whole thing.

@ Trilogy

Yeah, man--she's great. I realized very early on that I was slipping into my old ways and giving up a lot of power in the relationship from the get-go, I've since been correcting myself and taking steps to maintain my position, but it's hard, as this girl is pushing really hard to "domesticate" me. I don't want to approach girls for a couple of other reasons as well:

a) we're on the fringes of each other's social circles, and there is a (small) chance that word might get back round to her, and she's (bound to be) insanely jealous, I know the type.
b) I'm not sure I would be able to put the brakes on an interaction that was going really well (i.e.: set up to end in a close), and I already kinda hurt/disappointed one girl early on when setting up this current interaction.

Looking over my own words, it seems clear that I'm just kinda making excuses because I haven't sat down and decided exactly which thing I want, so I guess I just have to do that. Thanks for reading, guys, and thanks for the great advice.

 

[Chase]

AFCnoob,

Moved this to the Relationships Board.

When I first started learning pickup, I found myself in a similar situation. I landed a girl who was just about perfect for me - beautiful, smart, sexy, full of life and energy and optimism and ambition. I learned tons of really valuable things from her, like refusing to let people say no, and asking people probing questions and refusing to let them off the hook with pseudo-answers that didn't get to the core. And I had to decide how I was going to run the relationship. On the one hand, I was new to game, was coming from a place where women were a scarce resource, and I had serious doubts at the time (this was back in 2006) that I'd ever be able to find another girl as amazing as her. On the other hand, I had little doubt in my attractiveness as a long term partner, and her attractiveness as well, and I knew if we went down the long-term relationship path it was game, set, match: there was the rest of my life right there.

So, I told her I couldn't be exclusive, and it was one of the hardest things I had to do. I had to tear a piece of my soul off and throw it away to do that.

But now, 6 years later, I look back and say, "I did EXACTLY the right thing," and I'm pretty amazed with myself that I DID, in spite the whirling vortex of emotions I was feeling. The progress I made in my approach and my vibe and all the rest in the years I had that girl as my girlfriend were invaluable; I'd be 2 or 3 years behind where I am right now had I not done that.

My advice is, unless you're having a kid with her or you are 100% satisfied with your game skills and fundamentals and need no further women, don't touch monogamy. You'll thank yourself for it later. But you'll pay in emotional turmoil now.

I guess that's the choice we all make: easy times now (monogamy - the path of least resistance), and hard times later (scarcity mentality setting in, making you put up with more and more crap from her down the line; rust and lost progress from the time you weren't active), or hard times now (emotional turmoil) and easy times later (non-needy mentality, continued progress in game skills).

Choose your fate...

Chase

 

[Just_Dave]

AFCnoob,

guess that's the choice we all make: easy times now (monogamy - the path of least resistance), and hard times later (scarcity mentality setting in, making you put up with more and more crap from her down the line; rust and lost progress from the time you weren't active), or hard times now (emotional turmoil) and easy times later (non-needy mentality, continued progress in game skills).

Choose your fate...

Chase

This why whenever I do get into a serious relationship I make sure I choose the right girl, and that the new girl is better than the last girlfriend. This way I'm forcing myself to improve my relationships rather than have them decline in quality.

 

[AFCnoob]

Hey again, Chase:

Sorry about the mis-categorization, I'll think more carefully in the future. As usual, your advice is invaluable. I know I need to take extra steps to define this relationship and decide exactly where I want it to go and what I want out of it, but I'm loath to do so because--just as you mentioned--it ain't gonna be easy. But then...nothing about retaining control of relationships ever is.

The problem is, I'm conflicted almost to the point of paralysis. I'm definitely not interested in seeing other girls at the same time that I'm "seeing" this girl, but I don't want her to assume that exclusivity means we're supposed to start down the path to matrimony or some craziness. Then again, we've been spending a metric ton of time together and texting in between (ugh). She fooled me with her whole "cold, hard exterior" bit, but again...she's just a girl inside, and is falling...surprisingly hard. At any rate, just as you said, I have to "choose my fate", sort this stuff now, or bear the consequences later. Thanks.

Sup, Just_Dave:

Purely by accident, my long-term relationships have been improving since I started getting into them (at least in my own estimation), which is what eventually led to my getting married--even though I found problems in myself and our stated goals/paths in life, which caused it to end. I never thought of myself as the kind of person who would have a lot of choice in choosing exactly who I wanted in a relationship, but even my brief dabbling in PU has changed all of that, I'm blown away by the amount of choice even an average guy like me has.

The one thing I'm still having problems with is maintaining power/expectations/boundaries/etc. I still have so much work to do in PU...but there's no reason not to be with this girl...ugh. This indecision makes me feel foolish, but I have a feeling life is going to force me to confront this very soon. Thanks for the reminder man.

 

[Chase]

Hey AFCnoob,

The problem is, I'm conflicted almost to the point of paralysis. I'm definitely not interested in seeing other girls at the same time that I'm "seeing" this girl, but I don't want her to assume that exclusivity means we're supposed to start down the path to matrimony or some craziness. Then again, we've been spending a metric ton of time together and texting in between (ugh). She fooled me with her whole "cold, hard exterior" bit, but again...she's just a girl inside, and is falling...surprisingly hard. At any rate, just as you said, I have to "choose my fate", sort this stuff now, or bear the consequences later. Thanks.

I've stopped putting much salt into women's relationship emotions. On the one hand, you want to make her life better and avoid any undue pain to her, but on the other hand, be careful about running your own life thinking that something's really amazing because her emotions are so strong.

There's a good post here that pretty humorously and accurately portrays how things go for men and women post-breakup:

Shmitten Kitten: Difference Between the Sexes

... and that's really how it goes. You'll be sitting there months later, thinking, "Wow, poor girl. Did I do the right thing letting her go? She's probably STILL devastated!"

Meanwhile, she's out partying it up at the local nightclub meeting new men and not even thinking about you. It's evolution... a woman must move on; her clock is ticking. For the man, it doesn't really make sense to let go of ANY of his girls, reproductively-speaking...

Purely by accident, my long-term relationships have been improving since I started getting into them (at least in my own estimation), which is what eventually led to my getting married--even though I found problems in myself and our stated goals/paths in life, which caused it to end. I never thought of myself as the kind of person who would have a lot of choice in choosing exactly who I wanted in a relationship, but even my brief dabbling in PU has changed all of that, I'm blown away by the amount of choice even an average guy like me has.

The one thing I'm still having problems with is maintaining power/expectations/boundaries/etc. I still have so much work to do in PU...but there's no reason not to be with this girl...ugh. This indecision makes me feel foolish, but I have a feeling life is going to force me to confront this very soon. Thanks for the reminder man.

You have two things you want, and both things seem attractive, and neither one is easy to throw away. The best would be if you could have both, but it doesn't sound like you can.

In any event, you've got your girl for now, and there doesn't seem to be any pressing reason to separate; I'd say enjoy her, don't worry yourself obsessing too much over making a decision you sound like you can't make right now, and see how it plays out. You need more experience here before you're able to look at this situation and say, "THIS is what I want, so to get that I have to do THIS." Right now, you don't know - so just give it some time. And pay attention to your gut about what it wants you to do - that's your subconscious speaking, and it knows more about pretty much everything you want and are involved in than your conscious does.

Chase

 

[Just_Dave]

@ Chase, the link made me and my coworker laugh hard and I also sent it out to a few friends. I definitely force myself to get out the house and mingle with people. Depending how the break up went I do give myself time to grieve usually by song. Then I finish writing it and play it at a show. Then I pick up a cutie at a show ... etc...

@AFCnoob, the thing about relationships is you're really the only one who knows her. Chase and I only know what you told us about her, there could be infinite things that don't know. So take whatever advice I give you with a grain of salt, meaning don't take it all at face value. Chase knows more about relationships than do because I learned a great multitude from him. The blogs and going out and practicing it. Aside from that only you know what you really want from her. To maintain power don't over invest in your relationship with time and money. Keep her interested and when you do spend money make sure she earns it. You're not an ATM.

 

[AFCnoob]

Hey, Chase!

I'd say enjoy her, don't worry yourself obsessing too much over making a decision you sound like you can't make right now, and see how it plays out.

Those are my thoughts exactly. We're together now, and that's what matters. Issues will crop up when they do, and I'll deal with them then. I can take some comfort in the fact that my most recent relationships/interactions have taught me the utter futility of doing something I don't want, or chasing a girl, so between those two things, I can't go too far wrong. As usual, thanks for the insight. (Jack, the drunken surgeon---yea that was me for a while.)

Hi again, J_D

This girl's not perfect by any stretch, I don't have any illusions about it, but she's very, very nice. I'm not 100% happy with the way we started out, and I feel a bit over-invested, as I've unwittingly set high expectations, which is quite tough to recover from--but it's quite interesting seeing if and how I can do that. Overall I'm satisfied with where I am--at present, anyway. I'll just have to see where things lead from here. Thanks for the advice!

 

[AFCnoob]

The End

Very small steps. That's how girls work their way into your life. I had an ex once who moved one or two pieces of her clothing into my apartment until she had transferred her entire wardrobe (and she had a huge wardrobe). It took months, but she just brought a couple things at a time...day after day, week after week. I hardly even noticed, heh.

[Sandy] essentially tried to do the same thing. Come to dinner. Hang out with my friends. Let's do something for Christmas. Stay at my place. Kiss me just one more time...now just once more, etc. etc. Suddenly she's upset that I don't call her every other day. Suddenly she wants to be more "affectionate". Suddenly she wants to know what's really going on in my mind when I'm quiet and distant (thinking about my wrecked marriage and how I absolutely cannot f*ck over another girl).

Most recently, we went to a local venue a few floors up in a building, overlooking the city. We got a couple of beers, and went from idle chat to talking about our "relationship". I made it clear that I couldn't--wouldn't let things develop any further, even if she wanted them to. She got upset, then angry, then walked out.

I followed her down to the street. She was going to get into a taxi, but I stopped her with a look. She didn't really want to go, she just wanted me to watch her walking away--to get me to follow her. I was glad she was angry. I was glad she thought of it as me trying to have some extended, casual fling--"for fun". I was glad she essentially called me an asshole. I'd rather be an asshole now than break her heart later, but I still didn't want her to go. I wanted her to go back home with me again, and for things to stay the way they had been before. But she left anyway, and she was hurt anyway.

She sent her friend 'round the next morning to collect a few things she had left at my place...

It was my fault really. I just wanted us to be together for a while without it having to develop into something that would hurt when it ended, but I didn't frame it that way at all. I ignored "the rules of engagement", and gave her too much time, and too many assurances with my actions. I didn't have a clear plan in my head, and let her lead things down a road I didn't want us to follow.

So here I am. That familiar old feeling is back--the best way to describe it is like being hollow. But I don't mind it anymore. The one thing PU has taught me is that you can decide how you feel about anything. I've decided to feel no particular way about this most recent development.

I don't want to go back to picking up girls (or trying to). I don't see the point, and honestly I feel like it wasn't worth it--at least the way I was doing it. It was a lot of work, gut wrenching, nerve wracking, and I didn't even enjoy closing--most of the time I was too focused on performing to enjoy it at all. I'm not interested in sleeping with girls I don't really like, and I can't seem to just be with a girl I really like w/o letting it develop into something more. So...I guess that's that. Maybe I'll change my mind. Maybe after a week or two, or a month or two, I'll be ready to climb back on that horse. We'll see.

 

[Just_Dave]

Feel How you Want

AFCnoob,

If that's really how you feel I hope you find what you're looking for. I will say that if I had stopped researching how to attract women I would've missed out on my current girlfriend. I failed a lot along the way but it was those failures and all of the heartbreak I endured that made looking into my girlfriend's eyes completely worth it!

Take care,

Just Dave

 

[AFCnoob]

PU is great. Reinventing myself and having more social control and awareness than at any time in my life is amazing. But...maybe I just need some time alone. I still plan to freuqent the board and blog, I just feel like such a poseur doing it now tho, hehe.

Thanks for the kind words and reminder, Dave.

 

[Chase]

It's common for a guy who's high in empathy to come out of a hard breakup feeling similar to the guy who's enduring a wicked hangover: "Oh, I am NEVER doing that again!" It's also fairly common for even a guy who's good with girls but still has some ironing out of his game to do to still see a big division between girls, with the "great girls I really like" on one side, and all the "other girls who are just casual / practice / hookups / etc." on the other. It's a mental defense mechanism when you're still afraid of ending up stuck with a girl who isn't "good enough" yet. It goes away once you're totally confident that 1) you have enough options / it's easy enough for you to meet new women that that isn't going to happen, and 2) you don't keep mediocre women around long enough for it to be a risk. At that point, you really do learn to just enjoy sleeping with girls, and you're discriminating enough that you simply won't let yourself date women who are anything less than what you want in a partner (at this point, there isn't much need to rush to; but this is also the point where you start meeting girls left and right who make amazing partners, and end up wondering where these girls have been all your life).

On girls getting hurt: I personally like to say that the only way a woman doesn't get hurt in a breakup is if the breakup never happens. Or, in other words... unless you never breakup with her ever, she's going to get at least a little hurt, and that's just how relationships go. All you can do is try your best to cushion her landing as she storms out of the relationship.

Anyway, get your mend on, but I'd be surprised if you were ready to throw in the towel on women / dating / relationships and resign yourself to a life of celibacy just yet. Every time *I* say, "All right, I'm tired of girls getting hurt - no more relationships!" I end up sleeping with some really awesome girl, and suddenly we're in a relationship again.

Chase

 

[AFCnoob]

Hey Chase,

I really appreciate the kind words. I also like how you sliced through the bullsh*t and got at the real issue: [Sandy] was geat, but I didn't see a future for us for various reasons. I know the way I feel now isn't going to be the way I feel next week.

The one "problem" I still have is just that--I don't know if I want to get to the place where I casually sleep with girls (even though that's what I've been doing up to this point). I mean, if I want to get to the point where I casually sleep with girls and not feel any way about it.

I just don't know. Of course, screening is the major thing, just as you mentioned. I've gotten a little better at it, but I'm still in that area where I'll take anything that comes my way and is "up to snuff". Yeah, not the way to be. So I have to work on those two things.

As always, thanks for the great advice, Chase.

 

[Franco]

Hey AFC,

Maybe I can give some advice here as it was not too long ago that I was trying to locate that "sweet spot" between finding which women are just casual relationships for me and which women are worth more.

When(/If) you get back into the thick of PU at some point, a really good trick is to force yourself to make a decision about what category this girl will be in before you actually sleep with her. And then stick with it! I've been on several dates now where I knew that, regardless of whether I slept with this girl or not, she was going to end up in the "casual relationship" category right from the beginning. This made things MUCH smoother since I knew right away exactly which expectations I wanted to set and was able to frame everything in that direction. This minimized drama quite a bit.

Now I understand that there are situations (possibly like [Sandy]) where she is in limbo in your mind and you're not quite sure which category she falls under (casual or long-term girlfriend material). If this is the case, assume the "casual" stance. Remember, it is emphasized on this website that it is much easier to take a girl you are casually seeing and convert her into a girlfriend than it is to do the reverse.

Either way, we enjoy having you on the boards, AFC, and hopefully we will continue to keep seeing more from you. =)

- Franco

 

[AFCnoob]

I don't know how I ever managed to not reply to Franco's kind post. Here it is, like 10 months later (sorry), but I really appreciate it. I'm back and very glad to be back with you guys. It's great to see the forum still going strong and all the new members.

Thanks Franco. Sound advice as usual. There is more information in my latest FR.

 

[Franco]

Good to have you back, AFC! Hopefully your time away has done good things for you. =)

- Franco