Serious difficulties to get 2nd dates

[ThePicker]

Hey hunters

I am having huge difficulties to get 2nd dates and to get girls engaged on a continous basis beyond the 1st date. And I got no idea what Im doing wrong

My 'seduction/date journey' is as follows:

I am usually meeting up with girls from Tinder, I arrange the date in less than 5-10 messages, and we don't interact too much until the date. Then the date goes well, we kiss, she does 70-80% of the talking, etc...

Then when back home, they usually show interest through text (they reply fast, or at first might even be in for a 2nd meeting and agree to arrange one, etc).

But then..

As time goes by, they completely lose interest in seeing each other.

What usually happens to me (in general) with a typical tinder girl is the following :

1) I ask her out for a 2nd date (usually 2-4 days after the 1st one.)

2) She agrees

3) The day of the date arrives and she has a legit excuse not to meet (her period, her job, etc). But she still shows interest: (agrees to reschedule, or maybe she's even the one rescheduling)

4) She can't make it the 2nd time (even though she has been flirty and reacting very well to my messages). From this point on, she starts to take a lot to reply or to not reply at all

5) I ask her out again and either she's too busy, or she answers with a vague 'we will see', or doesn't even reply at all. It's fully lost.


In reality, this is also happening to me with some girls I have met at parties, though most of them are from Tinder.


Im living in Poland right now. This was barely an issue when I dated girls in my home country (Spain). So I got no idea what Im missing. Im sure Im doing something wrong.


Other additional information:
We usually text very little after the 1st date. Maybe 1-3 messages/day on average. In Spain, girls are usually the ones reaching out to me after the 1st date, and in general, they reach out more freely and more often than in Poland (from my experience).
Most of these girls usually watch my stories, they don't miss a single one, and Im sure they don't see me as low value, but still as high value and feel attraction (I have objective facts for that statement, but I don't want to make the post too long).


My current theory is that, since girls here are more selective about with who they have sex (due to cultural reasons, as things are more conservative here), and are in general more relationship-oriented, they discard those guys that perceive as 'hookups/fuckboys' or with whom don't feel enough rapport/connection, even though if they perceive these boys as high value.
But this is just a vague theory. And anyway, cmon, they're usually doing all the talking on the dates, (I barely talk, and they barely get to really know much about me on our first dates), so I guess my rapport is not that bad.


Any ideas? Has this ever happened to you?. What could I be doing wrong?.


By the way:
I want to send a very big thank you to everyone in the community.
If you read my previous posts, you'll see that at first my problem was that I could barely get these 1st dates. Well, after following the community's advice, that's not a problem anymore, at all!. Im getting many. Now the main problem is getting passed these 1st dates.

 

[Vision]

What I look for whenever I'm thinking about this stuff is patterns... and what stands out.

What stands out here for me is that you didn't really post much about what actually happens on the date.

She talks mostly and you kiss. That's all we have going on here... and that's a huge part of what determines whether you'll see each other again.

That and whatever she's telling her friends when she gets home and their reactions to it.

Since Poland is a country that a lot of people go to for sex tourism, and you don't plan on sleeping with the girl on the first date, my suggestion would be to skip kissing her altogether and instead focus on building attraction, creating comfort, and setting the right frames.

You didn't mention doing any of those things... are you conscious of what you're talking about? Do you have a game plan for what you're doing or are you just letting them talk as much as possible and hoping things go the right direction?

You don't need to kiss her to take her to bed and a lot of girls in EE countries (IME) get freaked out when guys kiss them too quickly. They call up their friends and they're like, "OMG I went on this date with this hot guy and he's a foreigner" and her friends are like, "He's a foreigner? Is he a sex tourist? What happened?"

If you kissed her and didn't close, there's a good chance they're going to convince her you're a sex tourist and to not see you again.

That would be my suggestion for something to try differently... skip the kissing and focus on attraction, comfort, and framing.

And tell us more about what you're talking about on the date.

 

[Skills]

you let her talk, you kiss, then you constantly ask for a second meet= this is a horrible strategy

 

[Skjöldr]

I'm gonna go ahead and guess you follow coach corey wayne. And if that's the case, stop doing it. He says to let her do most of the talking. Yes and no. You want her to do most of the talking when you hit something good like what she's passionate about or whatever you want her to yap on about. The key is you choose the topic and you set the frames. I was on an insta-date with this chatterbox not so long ago. She could talk endlessly, which is fine. I prefer that to a shit date where you are dealing with a mute. However, i had alarm bells in my head fairly quickly, because i wanted to steer the conversations in the directions i wanted it, and so i did. But if this was early in my career i would have thought "This is great! She just keeps talking!". Big no no

Corey Wayne is good for some of his mindsets, but his game isn't that good tbh, he also says you should kiss girls even if you don't take her home and can escalate to sex because it shows you are a man and have balls and goes for what you want!! Which is... not how the real world works.

 

[ThePicker]

What I look for whenever I'm thinking about this stuff is patterns... and what stands out.

What stands out here for me is that you didn't really post much about what actually happens on the date.

She talks mostly and you kiss. That's all we have going on here... and that's a huge part of what determines whether you'll see each other again.

That and whatever she's telling her friends when she gets home and their reactions to it.

Since Poland is a country that a lot of people go to for sex tourism, and you don't plan on sleeping with the girl on the first date, my suggestion would be to skip kissing her altogether and instead focus on building attraction, creating comfort, and setting the right frames.

You didn't mention doing any of those things... are you conscious of what you're talking about? Do you have a game plan for what you're doing or are you just letting them talk as much as possible and hoping things go the right direction?

You don't need to kiss her to take her to bed and a lot of girls in EE countries (IME) get freaked out when guys kiss them too quickly. They call up their friends and they're like, "OMG I went on this date with this hot guy and he's a foreigner" and her friends are like, "He's a foreigner? Is he a sex tourist? What happened?"

If you kissed her and didn't close, there's a good chance they're going to convince her you're a sex tourist and to not see you again.

That would be my suggestion for something to try differently... skip the kissing and focus on attraction, comfort, and framing.

And tell us more about what you're talking about on the date.

Wow! A big thank you very much to you. You really nailed it. I feel surprised, how could you spot that from what I posted?. Wow!. So not creating comfort was one of the possible potential mistakes I was considering (I didn't add my hypotheses in order not to bias anyone's responses).
The things is, yes.
I just let them talk, I don't guide the conversation at all, they're mostly talking and talking and I am mostly listening and listening (and I barely talk about mself at all. They know nothing about me/they dont know who I am/how to picture me in their mind once the date is done. Is that good? Should I tell them more about me?).
BUT
On the other hand, they're mostly talking about personal things (what they like, their passions, hobbies, etc..). So I guess it is not that bad anyway, right?.
Since I can tell from your response that you have a solid game and know well the theory, I am really curious to know your thoughts on the following points :

-> I barely talk on my dates and they don't know how to 'picture' or 'classify' me in their minds. They don't even know very clearly what I do for living. Is that good? To what extent should I talk about myself?

->Im not the one leading the conversation/asking questions (they're usually the ones introducing the topics etc, which always tend to be personal: what they love, why they love what they love, etc). So I guess it is not that bad?

->What is your "date plan" in terms of generating comfort? How do you do it?. Tbh, I have always focused on generating value/attraction, this has never been smth I have gotten too deep into.


-> What do you think about the following mindset: I kinda have the paradigm that 'it's all about attraction/value'. The more value she thinks I have, the easier and effortless everything will be. If I was a more or less famous singer, or someone considerably above average in terms of value, I could get laid with them magically without the need of generating too much comfort. I could just call them and tell them to come straight away to my home. In sum, it would be like a "magic pill", like a "Attraction note" (Hope you've watched death note so that you get the reference xd).


-> What do you mean exactly when you say that Poland is famous for sex tourism?. I think getting laid here is as easy as in any other big cities (Paris, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, London, etc..) (I would say here it's indeed a little bit harder). I have heard that a lot but my impressions are still different.

Thank you hunter!.

 

[ThePicker]

you let her talk, you kiss, then you constantly ask for a second meet= this is a horrible strategy

Why? What should I do?.
Could you pls ellaborate a little bit more on that?.
Thanks !
Your responses have been very paradigm-changing.
I thought I was doing it right !
And I also thought that everyone was about value/attraction

 

[ThePicker]

I'm gonna go ahead and guess you follow coach corey wayne. And if that's the case, stop doing it. He says to let her do most of the talking. Yes and no. You want her to do most of the talking when you hit something good like what she's passionate about or whatever you want her to yap on about. The key is you choose the topic and you set the frames. I was on an insta-date with this chatterbox not so long ago. She could talk endlessly, which is fine. I prefer that to a shit date where you are dealing with a mute. However, i had alarm bells in my head fairly quickly, because i wanted to steer the conversations in the directions i wanted it, and so i did. But if this was early in my career i would have thought "This is great! She just keeps talking!". Big no no

Corey Wayne is good for some of his mindsets, but his game isn't that good tbh, he also says you should kiss girls even if you don't take her home and can escalate to sex because it shows you are a man and have balls and goes for what you want!! Which is... not how the real world works.

Ok so you nailed it too.
Yes, I have watched many of his videos, and I have also got that sensation that he's missing on many things (in the end, he always literally repeats the same stuff IN EVERY SINGLE VIDEO. haha. He has tons of videos in which the message/advice is always the same: stop chasing haha).
He's not the only PUA I follow and have followed though.

So what do you usually do to generate comfort? In what directions do you usually steer the conversations?

Also, what do you think about Corey's advice on texting after the 1st date? Should we really be so 'distant' and short-spoken?

Thanks!

 

[Skjöldr]

@ThePicker his text advice is some of the worst to come out of this. He will find a guy who fucked up and also happened to text her the next day after the date and be like "ohhh so somebody didnt read the book 15 times hehe...." it's a big circlejerk and confirmation bias. Having tried it out i found out that waiting for girls to get back in touch, one strike rule, wait over 4 days to text after dates unless she text you first (even after the first 1-2 sex sessions which is gonna nuke her into auto-rejection, absolutely don't do this) etc because it alledgedly builds mystery as to your intentions with her and displays yourself as a high value man who is busy and takes his time before whether or not he wants to see her again or not, all sounds good on paper. It just... doesn't work that way in real life. You are asking for way too much compliance in the beginning. You don't live rent free in most girls' heads unless her interest with you is 10/10 from the get go which 99% of girls won't be and even those girls who are super interested in your will still appreciate that you balance your high value with some empathy, shooting her a text every few days or saying "Hey, it was fun today!" or "That was hot" after a date/she leaves your place/post sex etc. She isn't gonna think "Ew he's too beta and available", i follow more the spirit of Zan Perrion, i will not "chase" a girl but if i like her i will pursue her and be persistent and if somehow she's turned off by that and isn't reciprocating, then i'm off. Your mindset must be that "I want her, but i don't need her", so my aggressiveness is not from a place of neediness but a masculine desire to take her. Corey says that if you text a girl more than just setting up dates you risk texting/talking your way out of liking you which is a horrible learning strategy, because then you never improve by trial and error. I lost plenty of girls sending the wrong text at the wrong time, but i'm still getting more girls now than when i only texted for logistics so there's that.


Here's a good example of how i text when a girl doesn't reply:

So first if she doesn't respond i will re-open her/build on the conversation. Then if she stops responding again then i will do a take-away. And then, depending on the situation, i will maybe do a take-away 1-2 times before i do a call-out where i straight up tell her "If you aren't interested, let me know, and i will stop trying" and then if it's still an uphill thing i will leave it be. So depedning on the severity i will calibrate and use either a re-open/continuation or a take away or a call out.

 

[Vision]

Wow! A big thank you very much to you. You really nailed it. I feel surprised, how could you spot that from what I posted?. Wow!. So not creating comfort was one of the possible potential mistakes I was considering (I didn't add my hypotheses in order not to bias anyone's responses).
The things is, yes.
I just let them talk, I don't guide the conversation at all, they're mostly talking and talking and I am mostly listening and listening (and I barely talk about mself at all. They know nothing about me/they dont know who I am/how to picture me in their mind once the date is done. Is that good? Should I tell them more about me?).
BUT
On the other hand, they're mostly talking about personal things (what they like, their passions, hobbies, etc..). So I guess it is not that bad anyway, right?.

Is it bad? No. She's creating positive associations with you around things that she cares about.

Corey Wayne's whole thing is about power and putting you into a position of power so that she gets attracted and keeps getting more attracted over time until she finally wants sex with you and gives it to you.

And that definitely works in some regards. It has obviously gotten him laid but there's also a lot of other stuff going on there that he may or may not even know about.

There are a lot of people who overgame and talk women out of sex because they're so focused on gaming (I've done it myself many times).

What I've found with all this stuff is... figure out what works for you and do that.

If this isn't working, which it isn't, do something different. And keep doing different things until you find what works for you.

Just so you know, I'm super old school. I was in the PUA world back in 2004 to 2008 and then I took a long break, dated a few women more seriously, went to university, and built a business... then came back after the men's dating industry fell apart.

So a lot of the stuff I learned, as far as I can tell, nobody is teaching it anymore... all of the guys I followed are gone... but I'm sure there are good people teaching good stuff these days and I'd find good systems others have and practice their advice.

It sounds like you need an A-Z system for this. That's what I'd look for and start following that.

At the very least, try not kissing the girl on the date if you want to see her again and see what happens.

Since I can tell from your response that you have a solid game and know well the theory, I am really curious to know your thoughts on the following points :

-> I barely talk on my dates and they don't know how to 'picture' or 'classify' me in their minds. They don't even know very clearly what I do for living. Is that good? To what extent should I talk about myself?

It's not necessarily bad but they'll probably want to know at least a few things about you so that they feel like they have a better grasp on who you are and what you're about... just so you're not some random dude she met on Tinder who kissed her and that's all she has to go on.

Things you might want to say about yourself are...

- What you do
- What kind of a person you are
- Siblings
- Did you go to school
- What you do for fun
- What you're passionate about
- Where you're from
- Why are you in Poland?

If you talk about those things, you'll have a better chance of making her feel grounded to who you are and what you're about.

And it doesn't have to be some long, drawn out thing there.

When I talk to women, I usually tell them, in the first 5 minutes say something like, "I own an internet business and can work and travel anywhere. I actually didn't mean to come to Ukraine. I was planning on going to Austria but the lockdown happened while I was in Croatia so I had a choice of either coming here, going to South Africa, or going to Mexico. And since I have some friends here, I decided to come to Ukraine."

Now she knows who I am and why I'm here. Now when I get her contact, she at least has doubts about thinking I'm a sex tourist and has reasons she can say that I'm not... I didn't even mean to come here!

->Im not the one leading the conversation/asking questions (they're usually the ones introducing the topics etc, which always tend to be personal: what they love, why they love what they love, etc). So I guess it is not that bad?

It's not bad. It's just not getting you the result you want. The question is... is that because of what is being said or is that because of the kiss?

You'll only find out if you keep the same game plan, don't kiss girls a few times when you go out with them and then see if that changes things.

If that doesn't work, have a game plan for what you'd rather have happen and execute the game plan.

->What is your "date plan" in terms of generating comfort? How do you do it?. Tbh, I have always focused on generating value/attraction, this has never been smth I have gotten too deep into.

I focus on framing, more than anything else. But that's not really comfort, necessarily.

But if you want some simple things, you should probably take her to multiple venues, that builds comfort quickly. Ground yourself like I talked about before... telling her who you are and what you're about.

Talk about who your friends are... and make sure to mention your friendships with women.

That's mostly what you need, I think.

-> What do you think about the following mindset: I kinda have the paradigm that 'it's all about attraction/value'. The more value she thinks I have, the easier and effortless everything will be. If I was a more or less famous singer, or someone considerably above average in terms of value, I could get laid with them magically without the need of generating too much comfort. I could just call them and tell them to come straight away to my home. In sum, it would be like a "magic pill", like a "Attraction note" (Hope you've watched death note so that you get the reference xd).

I think that's great if you want to become famous. But that's probably a problem for most guys.

I don't think anything is ALL about anything. I think there's a lot to be said about value and status. But I don't think it's that necessary to focus solely on that.

If you have enough of it, you don't have to worry about anything...? you're probably right. But are you going to get to the point where you have that much? Are you even going to try? And how are you going to convey that to a woman without sounding like a douchebag?

That's a lot of what Mystery used to do, back in the day. But then you've built your whole life around either being fake famous because actually being famous takes a ridiculous amount of work that most people aren't willing, able, or even interested in accomplishing.

Then if you're faking it, you're just a fake dude, living a fake life, and you have to keep up the lie and the bullshit. It's not worth it, IMO.

If your outcome is to just get laid, you could do it but it still sucks. If your outcome is to get a relationship, you're going to have to keep up a lie.

Not worth it. And are you going to become famous to get girls? Probably not worth it.

-> What do you mean exactly when you say that Poland is famous for sex tourism?. I think getting laid here is as easy as in any other big cities (Paris, Madrid, Rome, Berlin, London, etc..) (I would say here it's indeed a little bit harder). I have heard that a lot but my impressions are still different.

I don't know THAT much about Poland. I lived there for a few months last year with a Ukrainian girlfriend that I was dating at the time but it was during lockdown. We went into lockdown literally like a week after I got there.

What I do know is that lots of guys go there to get laid (or used to)... just like lots of guys come to Ukraine to get laid. It might not be as bad there, I don't really know.

What I know here (in Ukraine) is that everyone knows that foreigners come here to have sex with the women... and a lot of the women are looking for foreigners to take them out of the country. And there are a lot of people who don't like any of that here.

I don't know that it's easier here than other places... my guess is that it's a lot easier to get laid in the USA than it is here but I don't really know because I don't date in the USA... or in the West at all, for that matter... but for different reasons.

But I do know a few friends who consistently go to sex parties in the USA so... there's that.

 

[Skills]

Why? What should I do?.
Could you pls ellaborate a little bit more on that?.
Thanks !
Your responses have been very paradigm-changing.
I thought I was doing it right !
And I also thought that everyone was about value/attraction

With dates try to do the what i suggest which is called the 3 bounce method, also follow the links in that post, also take a look at the sample video on how i do it... And for the texting follow my structure here.. What you are doing is just beyond bad and super low odds, as you have witness by your results...

 

[Tony D]

I have a program for this. I hired a bunch of hot girls, and I have clients go on virtual dates with them. I watch, and critique, then do drills, examples, etc.

I'm not just advertising. Here's what I've learned.

All these guys have problems getting second dates. Almost always these are the reasons why:

Boring, logical, shallow conversation. Surface level topics that don't go deeper.
Too nice, polite, and boring.
No technique or strategy. No cold reading, story telling, future bridging, or anything you've read about.
Low energy. Not fun.
NOT FUN! No emotion. No laughter. No excitement.
No escalation. Never getting to the point. Never talking about sex, or making a bold physical move.


And the list could go on. But those are the main culprits.

 

[Vision]

I just want to add one more thing here because you're getting conflicting information in this thread...

You'll never know until you test and find out what works for you.

Different things work for different people in different countries with different women.

It's an art and you should only take things that people say and try and test them a few times because a lot of guys embellish what they're talking about, at the very least.

The reason I suggest just testing not going for the kiss is because that one thing could work for you and you might not need anything else... you could learn a bunch of shit these people are talking about and it could make things worse for you.

I think it's better to systematically test things, find a person whose teaching seems legit (there are a LOT of fakes and bullshit out there), fits with what you're looking to do, and learn their system if that's something that you want to do next and just focus on learning their system until you've got it down.

The things I think you should test are 1. Not kissing on the date and 2. doing something different with texting. If those don't work, it might be worth it to look at an actual system that guys are teaching.

 

[ThePicker]

@ThePicker his text advice is some of the worst to come out of this. He will find a guy who fucked up and also happened to text her the next day after the date and be like "ohhh so somebody didnt read the book 15 times hehe...." it's a big circlejerk and confirmation bias. Having tried it out i found out that waiting for girls to get back in touch, one strike rule, wait over 4 days to text after dates unless she text you first (even after the first 1-2 sex sessions which is gonna nuke her into auto-rejection, absolutely don't do this) etc because it alledgedly builds mystery as to your intentions with her and displays yourself as a high value man who is busy and takes his time before whether or not he wants to see her again or not, all sounds good on paper. It just... doesn't work that way in real life. You are asking for way too much compliance in the beginning. You don't live rent free in most girls' heads unless her interest with you is 10/10 from the get go which 99% of girls won't be and even those girls who are super interested in your will still appreciate that you balance your high value with some empathy, shooting her a text every few days or saying "Hey, it was fun today!" or "That was hot" after a date/she leaves your place/post sex etc. She isn't gonna think "Ew he's too beta and available", i follow more the spirit of Zan Perrion, i will not "chase" a girl but if i like her i will pursue her and be persistent and if somehow she's turned off by that and isn't reciprocating, then i'm off. Your mindset must be that "I want her, but i don't need her", so my aggressiveness is not from a place of neediness but a masculine desire to take her. Corey says that if you text a girl more than just setting up dates you risk texting/talking your way out of liking you which is a horrible learning strategy, because then you never improve by trial and error. I lost plenty of girls sending the wrong text at the wrong time, but i'm still getting more girls now than when i only texted for logistics so there's that.


Here's a good example of how i text when a girl doesn't reply:

So first if she doesn't respond i will re-open her/build on the conversation. Then if she stops responding again then i will do a take-away. And then, depending on the situation, i will maybe do a take-away 1-2 times before i do a call-out where i straight up tell her "If you aren't interested, let me know, and i will stop trying" and then if it's still an uphill thing i will leave it be. So depedning on the severity i will calibrate and use either a re-open/continuation or a take away or a call out.

Thank you for the message.
Imma have a look at the video

 

[ThePicker]

Is it bad? No. She's creating positive associations with you around things that she cares about.

Corey Wayne's whole thing is about power and putting you into a position of power so that she gets attracted and keeps getting more attracted over time until she finally wants sex with you and gives it to you.

And that definitely works in some regards. It has obviously gotten him laid but there's also a lot of other stuff going on there that he may or may not even know about.

There are a lot of people who overgame and talk women out of sex because they're so focused on gaming (I've done it myself many times).

What I've found with all this stuff is... figure out what works for you and do that.

If this isn't working, which it isn't, do something different. And keep doing different things until you find what works for you.

Just so you know, I'm super old school. I was in the PUA world back in 2004 to 2008 and then I took a long break, dated a few women more seriously, went to university, and built a business... then came back after the men's dating industry fell apart.

So a lot of the stuff I learned, as far as I can tell, nobody is teaching it anymore... all of the guys I followed are gone... but I'm sure there are good people teaching good stuff these days and I'd find good systems others have and practice their advice.

It sounds like you need an A-Z system for this. That's what I'd look for and start following that.

At the very least, try not kissing the girl on the date if you want to see her again and see what happens.



It's not necessarily bad but they'll probably want to know at least a few things about you so that they feel like they have a better grasp on who you are and what you're about... just so you're not some random dude she met on Tinder who kissed her and that's all she has to go on.

Things you might want to say about yourself are...

- What you do
- What kind of a person you are
- Siblings
- Did you go to school
- What you do for fun
- What you're passionate about
- Where you're from
- Why are you in Poland?

If you talk about those things, you'll have a better chance of making her feel grounded to who you are and what you're about.

And it doesn't have to be some long, drawn out thing there.

When I talk to women, I usually tell them, in the first 5 minutes say something like, "I own an internet business and can work and travel anywhere. I actually didn't mean to come to Ukraine. I was planning on going to Austria but the lockdown happened while I was in Croatia so I had a choice of either coming here, going to South Africa, or going to Mexico. And since I have some friends here, I decided to come to Ukraine."

Now she knows who I am and why I'm here. Now when I get her contact, she at least has doubts about thinking I'm a sex tourist and has reasons she can say that I'm not... I didn't even mean to come here!



It's not bad. It's just not getting you the result you want. The question is... is that because of what is being said or is that because of the kiss?

You'll only find out if you keep the same game plan, don't kiss girls a few times when you go out with them and then see if that changes things.

If that doesn't work, have a game plan for what you'd rather have happen and execute the game plan.



I focus on framing, more than anything else. But that's not really comfort, necessarily.

But if you want some simple things, you should probably take her to multiple venues, that builds comfort quickly. Ground yourself like I talked about before... telling her who you are and what you're about.

Talk about who your friends are... and make sure to mention your friendships with women.

That's mostly what you need, I think.



I think that's great if you want to become famous. But that's probably a problem for most guys.

I don't think anything is ALL about anything. I think there's a lot to be said about value and status. But I don't think it's that necessary to focus solely on that.

If you have enough of it, you don't have to worry about anything...? you're probably right. But are you going to get to the point where you have that much? Are you even going to try? And how are you going to convey that to a woman without sounding like a douchebag?

That's a lot of what Mystery used to do, back in the day. But then you've built your whole life around either being fake famous because actually being famous takes a ridiculous amount of work that most people aren't willing, able, or even interested in accomplishing.

Then if you're faking it, you're just a fake dude, living a fake life, and you have to keep up the lie and the bullshit. It's not worth it, IMO.

If your outcome is to just get laid, you could do it but it still sucks. If your outcome is to get a relationship, you're going to have to keep up a lie.

Not worth it. And are you going to become famous to get girls? Probably not worth it.



I don't know THAT much about Poland. I lived there for a few months last year with a Ukrainian girlfriend that I was dating at the time but it was during lockdown. We went into lockdown literally like a week after I got there.

What I do know is that lots of guys go there to get laid (or used to)... just like lots of guys come to Ukraine to get laid. It might not be as bad there, I don't really know.

What I know here (in Ukraine) is that everyone knows that foreigners come here to have sex with the women... and a lot of the women are looking for foreigners to take them out of the country. And there are a lot of people who don't like any of that here.

I don't know that it's easier here than other places... my guess is that it's a lot easier to get laid in the USA than it is here but I don't really know because I don't date in the USA... or in the West at all, for that matter... but for different reasons.

But I do know a few friends who consistently go to sex parties in the USA so... there's that.

Damn I feel so bad for not having answered such a long, insightful and well elaborated answer. Haven't checked the forum in a while :/. Thank you for it!

So:

1-I like the way you introduce your sources of value (your digital business) to the girls.
It's definetily shown me how I should do it.
I have been working on my own digital business for 1-2 years as well, (it is technically a startup, it fits such definition, with the exception that it has no funding, it's just me for now haha).
It's not been launched yet (It is a long story why it is taking so long) but I have received a lot of grants and recognitions from my home university, and at some point, I was going to collaborate with an ex-professor of mine and her research teams.
All of that looked really cool to me.
I thought telling all of these things to my targets would result being a strong source of value, but to my surprise, they seemed not to care that much. Yes, they usually formed a good impression of me, but that's all.
Indeed, the reason I am in Poland is actually that one, I received another grant to go abroad that has to do with the business.
The thing is, I was communicating this source of value in a very plain and logical way, which made it impossible to get them to connect with that source of value per se.

2- What is your business about if I may ask? Could you ellaborate more on that?. Im really curious and also a passionate of the world of digital businesses and startups, as now you already know haha

3-It's interesting you like eastern girls. I really love them, even though they're harder to fuck. They're 100% my ideal of beauty. I don't say no to other European nationalities though. I haven't dated a Spanish (my native country) girl in years either.

4- You've made really good points. I agree with everything.
After having stepped back from the dating world for some months (I've been busy), I think I have figured out what was failing.
I would say it wasn't one but several things indeed. The most important one is:
Yes, I was too aggressive, as you pointed out, they don't like that. I treated them as though they were westerns or spaniards, well, it didn't work. It's not necessarily because of the kissing, but because of not building enough comfort and romance + inviting them over too quickly (without having built that comfort). In general, due to having that attitude of "I just wanna fuck with you".
Anyway, after having watched the results of other Polish friends, It seems the 2nd-date ratios are like that here.
Im beginning to understand the gist of Polish girls' approach to dating haha.

Girls here love Spaniards but they also see foreigners as something transient. The thing is, that'd be okay with western girls, cause they'd fuck with you anyway, but Polish girls seem to need more comfort and more " Feeling special" To get into bed. So if they see you as something transient they'll make out with you and leave the thing there.
Sort of similar (though not the same thing) as what you said about Ukraine.


5- Oh no! Im not planning to become a superstar. Ive just always been curious about that fact.
I might run the experiment of faking it once or twice in my life to see what happens, my curiosity takes over.
I remember having a dj friend who also was a fairly popular influencer, and on many occasions, it sufficed him to say that to have all the girls magically melt over him.
I think this "Super Source of Value Effect" doesn't only apply to famous (or fairly famous) people.
Though fame would be a more important "ranking factor", I think having relevant sources of value of any sort that are statistically well-above average, should produce the same effect. For instance, owning a very important business or having a very high economic position in the social ladder. (In other words, " Having money").

6-
I think having your own company + "money" + a flexible life like yours (which is actually the type of life I am working toward) is also a very very strong source of value.
Not everybody can afford it, it's definetily something statistically unique.
From your experience, do you think it has been triggering this "Super Source of Value effect"?

 

[ulrich]

I was stuck for a very long time in a similar situation.
I could charm, kiss and even have sex with a lot of girls from apps, Facebook and daygame but second dates were almost impossible to get.

It took me some time but I boiled down to something very specific that I was doing.

I was explicitly telling girls that I prefer having open relationships and that it takes someone really special to make me want to be exclusive.

While it may be a great way to think and most girls agreed that it makes a lot of sense, I was killing my attainability.
Girls weren’t very excited on having to work more to get me even if I was better than most the guys they know… I was making my cost too high.

Are you saying or doing something that makes you come as someone they need to work extra hard to get?
Or are you outright killing the fantasy of getting together with you for something more serious? (you don’t need to commit if you don’t want to… but you don’t want her to think it’s impossible to get you as a serious partner)

 

[Water]

Hey hunters

I am having huge difficulties to get 2nd dates and to get girls engaged on a continous basis beyond the 1st date. And I got no idea what Im doing wrong

My 'seduction/date journey' is as follows:

I am usually meeting up with girls from Tinder, I arrange the date in less than 5-10 messages, and we don't interact too much until the date. Then the date goes well, we kiss, she does 70-80% of the talking, etc...

Then when back home, they usually show interest through text (they reply fast, or at first might even be in for a 2nd meeting and agree to arrange one, etc).

But then..

As time goes by, they completely lose interest in seeing each other.

What usually happens to me (in general) with a typical tinder girl is the following :

1) I ask her out for a 2nd date (usually 2-4 days after the 1st one.)

2) She agrees

3) The day of the date arrives and she has a legit excuse not to meet (her period, her job, etc). But she still shows interest: (agrees to reschedule, or maybe she's even the one rescheduling)

4) She can't make it the 2nd time (even though she has been flirty and reacting very well to my messages). From this point on, she starts to take a lot to reply or to not reply at all

5) I ask her out again and either she's too busy, or she answers with a vague 'we will see', or doesn't even reply at all. It's fully lost.


In reality, this is also happening to me with some girls I have met at parties, though most of them are from Tinder.


Im living in Poland right now. This was barely an issue when I dated girls in my home country (Spain). So I got no idea what Im missing. Im sure Im doing something wrong.


Other additional information:
We usually text very little after the 1st date. Maybe 1-3 messages/day on average. In Spain, girls are usually the ones reaching out to me after the 1st date, and in general, they reach out more freely and more often than in Poland (from my experience).
Most of these girls usually watch my stories, they don't miss a single one, and Im sure they don't see me as low value, but still as high value and feel attraction (I have objective facts for that statement, but I don't want to make the post too long).


My current theory is that, since girls here are more selective about with who they have sex (due to cultural reasons, as things are more conservative here), and are in general more relationship-oriented, they discard those guys that perceive as 'hookups/fuckboys' or with whom don't feel enough rapport/connection, even though if they perceive these boys as high value.
But this is just a vague theory. And anyway, cmon, they're usually doing all the talking on the dates, (I barely talk, and they barely get to really know much about me on our first dates), so I guess my rapport is not that bad.


Any ideas? Has this ever happened to you?. What could I be doing wrong?.


By the way:
I want to send a very big thank you to everyone in the community.
If you read my previous posts, you'll see that at first my problem was that I could barely get these 1st dates. Well, after following the community's advice, that's not a problem anymore, at all!. Im getting many. Now the main problem is getting passed these 1st dates.

What's preventing you from fucking the girl on the first date?

 

[Vision]

2- What is your business about if I may ask? Could you ellaborate more on that?. Im really curious and also a passionate of the world of digital businesses and startups, as now you already know haha

I teach dating advice but to women... https://facebook.com/matthewCoastRA/

So it's something that I need to be very smart about bringing it because it creates all kinds of weird connotations.

I've had a lot of positive reactions from women Googling me or me talking about it later where I ground myself through the story.

There are still some reservations about it... like whether I'm going to be super gamey and manipulative because I'm a dating expert.

3-It's interesting you like eastern girls. I really love them, even though they're harder to fuck. They're 100% my ideal of beauty. I don't say no to other European nationalities though. I haven't dated a Spanish (my native country) girl in years either.

Yeah, I talked to some other guys who are long-time PUAs who have been doing this since when I was first in the community. They've been coming to Ukraine since around 2012 and they said the average amount of time it takes a woman to hook up here is the 4th date.

I prefer women here, for sure. They're so much kinder, more feminine, graceful. There's cost and benefits to everything.

I was just in Mexico a couple weeks ago and dated this Mexican girl I met at a restaurant while I was there... she was super strong, independent woman... ended up letting go of that and dropping into her feminine after a couple of days with me.

I think what's missing in the west, these days, is strong masculine men. A lot of women are becoming men because real men are missing there now.

It's not that way fully yet in the East but if trends keep going the way they are, it will be soon.

4- You've made really good points. I agree with everything.
After having stepped back from the dating world for some months (I've been busy), I think I have figured out what was failing.
I would say it wasn't one but several things indeed. The most important one is:
Yes, I was too aggressive, as you pointed out, they don't like that. I treated them as though they were westerns or spaniards, well, it didn't work. It's not necessarily because of the kissing, but because of not building enough comfort and romance + inviting them over too quickly (without having built that comfort). In general, due to having that attitude of "I just wanna fuck with you".
Anyway, after having watched the results of other Polish friends, It seems the 2nd-date ratios are like that here.
Im beginning to understand the gist of Polish girls' approach to dating haha.

Girls here love Spaniards but they also see foreigners as something transient. The thing is, that'd be okay with western girls, cause they'd fuck with you anyway, but Polish girls seem to need more comfort and more " Feeling special" To get into bed. So if they see you as something transient they'll make out with you and leave the thing there.
Sort of similar (though not the same thing) as what you said about Ukraine.

It can actually work... IF you're just trying to get laid and you screen them from the very start.

There's an American guy here who semi-consistently gets ONS with Ukrainian girls from Tinder. He opens them sexually and keeps it sexual, meets them and goes straight to his place.

He's said none of them ever want to see him again after that, which could be good or bad, depending on what you're looking for.

Hector (Papi) was here for a week about two years ago and slept with 3 or 4 girls during that week... basically, he ended up just embracing the "sex tourist" label when he was here.

5- Oh no! Im not planning to become a superstar. Ive just always been curious about that fact.
I might run the experiment of faking it once or twice in my life to see what happens, my curiosity takes over.
I remember having a dj friend who also was a fairly popular influencer, and on many occasions, it sufficed him to say that to have all the girls magically melt over him.
I think this "Super Source of Value Effect" doesn't only apply to famous (or fairly famous) people.
Though fame would be a more important "ranking factor", I think having relevant sources of value of any sort that are statistically well-above average, should produce the same effect. For instance, owning a very important business or having a very high economic position in the social ladder. (In other words, " Having money").

Yeah man, I don't know about all of that. Having money is very different than being famous.

Using money to give the girl a good experience is very different than having money.

You can be famous and not have any money at all and still have girls swoon over you.

I was in a bluegrass band back in 2003 while I was in the military and we used to play local open mics in the area. I showed up to a restaurant and tried to give a woman in the back a CD to listen to and she was so awe struck by me because she had just listened to me perform at an open mic that she couldn't even think straight.

I didn't know anything at the time but it would have been a great time to get her contact... didn't have any money or even look like I had money but, in her eyes, I was famous... and she was so impressed.

I don't know the whole famous person game outside of what I do (I get a lot of women who get awe struck by me when they look me up) so I can't really comment more on that.

6-
I think having your own company + "money" + a flexible life like yours (which is actually the type of life I am working toward) is also a very very strong source of value.
Not everybody can afford it, it's definetily something statistically unique.
From your experience, do you think it has been triggering this "Super Source of Value effect"?

Not like you'd think... or maybe I'm not utilizing it like I should and really owning the position as much as I could.

I usually debrief girls after we hook up and I know that girl that I lived with in Poland told me that she hooked up with me faster than she would have, basically because of it. She said she was scared to lose me but that's probably because of my high value in her eyes.

I think it probably depends on the girl. Some women won't give a shit and some women will think it's amazing. That's why Pick up is an art, aye?

 

[POB]

You got the hardest part nailed, which is to get dates.
Now you must choose between two methods:

2 dates (aka blackdragon method)
PROS
- beginner friendly
- smaller margin of error
CONS
- takes more time
- you need to nail the first date (this is where you are having trouble)

or

3 bounce method
PROS
- straight to the point
- fast an reliable once you get the hang
CONS
- you need to prep carefully your logistics
- need great convos and know how to escalate when not isolated yet

As you are doing the 2 date method, here's some advice:
1) try to do 60 minute first dates (a little less is even better)

2) after the first 10-15 minutes of getting together, push her to talk about sexual topics
Examples on how to talk about sex:
- tell an interesting sexual story with one of your past gfs...I usually tell the one where we had sex on the beach in broad daylight or another one where we got busted fucking in her moms living room...start casually and slowly move on to the sexual part, always acting naturally as sex is just another detail...after you are done, ask if she has an interesting story with a past BF she would like to share.
- use gambits...there is a lot of sexual gambits right here on girlschase (8 orgasms routine, smell my hair/beard by teevester are great ones that come to mind). Pick one that you like and introduce it as casually as you can during conversation.

3) act naturally towards sex...guys who are afraid to sex talk get nowhere...you must be comfortable talking about it with girls...I remember one day that I was in a bar with my two best friends and we started to talk loudly and in graphic detail about our sexual escapades...soon enough flocks of chicks started to come closer and eavesdrop on what we were saying...women love to talk freely about sex, specially with men that don't judge them.

4) do not wait to set the second date...strike when the iron is hot....there's no rule against texting her the very next day to set up date number two. More time passes, more detached she becomes of that first great experience she had with you...it's not when you text...it's what you text that matters. You can use something you guys already talked about...example:
"wow, just remembered what you said about X (insert her sexual story from date)...
mental note: do not mess with (insert her name), she's dangerous!
nah, just kidding, I had fun...we should do that again
tell you what, shoot me your schedule for this week so we can figure it out"

Once she agrees, now it's time to give her plausible deniability (very important) and ask her to come over to your place (or a hotel/airbnn). Some examples here: https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/how-to-increase-odds-after-having-sex-with-a-girl-for-the-1st-time

Hope it helps.

~POB

 

[ThePicker]

I teach dating advice but to women... https://facebook.com/matthewCoastRA/

So it's something that I need to be very smart about bringing it because it creates all kinds of weird connotations.

I've had a lot of positive reactions from women Googling me or me talking about it later where I ground myself through the story.

There are still some reservations about it... like whether I'm going to be super gamey and manipulative because I'm a dating expert.



Yeah, I talked to some other guys who are long-time PUAs who have been doing this since when I was first in the community. They've been coming to Ukraine since around 2012 and they said the average amount of time it takes a woman to hook up here is the 4th date.

I prefer women here, for sure. They're so much kinder, more feminine, graceful. There's cost and benefits to everything.

I was just in Mexico a couple weeks ago and dated this Mexican girl I met at a restaurant while I was there... she was super strong, independent woman... ended up letting go of that and dropping into her feminine after a couple of days with me.

I think what's missing in the west, these days, is strong masculine men. A lot of women are becoming men because real men are missing there now.

It's not that way fully yet in the East but if trends keep going the way they are, it will be soon.



It can actually work... IF you're just trying to get laid and you screen them from the very start.

There's an American guy here who semi-consistently gets ONS with Ukrainian girls from Tinder. He opens them sexually and keeps it sexual, meets them and goes straight to his place.

He's said none of them ever want to see him again after that, which could be good or bad, depending on what you're looking for.

Hector (Papi) was here for a week about two years ago and slept with 3 or 4 girls during that week... basically, he ended up just embracing the "sex tourist" label when he was here.



Yeah man, I don't know about all of that. Having money is very different than being famous.

Using money to give the girl a good experience is very different than having money.

You can be famous and not have any money at all and still have girls swoon over you.

I was in a bluegrass band back in 2003 while I was in the military and we used to play local open mics in the area. I showed up to a restaurant and tried to give a woman in the back a CD to listen to and she was so awe struck by me because she had just listened to me perform at an open mic that she couldn't even think straight.

I didn't know anything at the time but it would have been a great time to get her contact... didn't have any money or even look like I had money but, in her eyes, I was famous... and she was so impressed.

I don't know the whole famous person game outside of what I do (I get a lot of women who get awe struck by me when they look me up) so I can't really comment more on that.



Not like you'd think... or maybe I'm not utilizing it like I should and really owning the position as much as I could.

I usually debrief girls after we hook up and I know that girl that I lived with in Poland told me that she hooked up with me faster than she would have, basically because of it. She said she was scared to lose me but that's probably because of my high value in her eyes.

I think it probably depends on the girl. Some women won't give a shit and some women will think it's amazing. That's why Pick up is an art, aye?

Again, thank you for your elaborated and high quality answers.

1) What 3-4 ukranians a week?, that's amazing. Not sure if that'd work in Poland. Do they buy superboosts or smth?
Most importantly, do you think that's thanks to their game (that is, they talk conservative or average-conservative girls into) or just thanks to doing a good screening/segmentation (they bang girls who're open to quick laids with foreigners).
Also, do you think there are many girls like that in Ukraine (girls open to quick laids specifically with foreigners)?
I've heard all sorts of stories about the dating dynamics there. Some of them even saying ukranians do look for foreigners on purpose for economic reasons.
Man, you left me in shock with those numbers.
If I ever visit ukraine, I'll definetily go for that sexual and fast approach.


2) I think you could really take a lot of advantage of your socially "cool" position/life.
Precisely today, looking for formulas to end my bad luck with getting 2nd dates, I've found an interesting concept from Mystery ("Grounding"), maybe that could help you seeze all the DAV potential of your job.
It basically consists in telling your story (in emotional terms) of how/why you ended up in X job/country/whatever they ask you, in a way that makes it connect with her/with her interests.

It could go like this:

What's your job?

Well, it's a long story.
Since I was a child, I have always dreamt about X because Y (emotional story).
Then when I turned 18, I started to work at X. I understood how tough it is to have to comply with a schedule of 40h of work per week. Having people telling you what to do, coming home late when most of the beauty and sun of the day have already vanished, not having time to write, to read, to paint, to do sport, to travel. I craved for freedom. Haven't you ever felt the same? What would you like to do the most if you wouldn't have to work anymore?
(I just improvised the line and it's a little bit shitty, but you get the idea: you can express feelings you allegedly had/have and that in reality everyone else has. Thus she'll say 'oh yes, I feel the same', and will relate to your 'job/identity'. When you end up the story saying you worked really hard to break free and build your own business and that you have finally accomplished it and have gotten a "free" life, she'll also see you as a 'hero' in a more intense way, since she's now related to your story).

If my digital business succeeds I'll definetily introduce the topic in this way.

3) What you pointed out about your job + not trying to come off as a player is really interesting.
You also said this Polish girl hooked up with you faster because she was afraid of losing you.
So the thing is, your job can subcommunicate you have a lot of preselection (thus sparking your value).
But at the same time, as you said, it might make you come off as a player.
Im curious as for what you're doing exactly to balance both the both sides of the coin.
Also, do you think it has ever played against you due to the player reason?

4) Yes, slavic girls are amazing haha, so femenine and beautiful.
Im always glad to see Im not the only one who loves their genes so much

 

[ThePicker]

You got the hardest part nailed, which is to get dates.
Now you must choose between two methods:

2 dates (aka blackdragon method)
PROS
- beginner friendly
- smaller margin of error
CONS
- takes more time
- you need to nail the first date (this is where you are having trouble)

or

3 bounce method
PROS
- straight to the point
- fast an reliable once you get the hang
CONS
- you need to prep carefully your logistics
- need great convos and know how to escalate when not isolated yet

As you are doing the 2 date method, here's some advice:
1) try to do 60 minute first dates (a little less is even better)

2) after the first 10-15 minutes of getting together, push her to talk about sexual topics
Examples on how to talk about sex:
- tell an interesting sexual story with one of your past gfs...I usually tell the one where we had sex on the beach in broad daylight or another one where we got busted fucking in her moms living room...start casually and slowly move on to the sexual part, always acting naturally as sex is just another detail...after you are done, ask if she has an interesting story with a past BF she would like to share.
- use gambits...there is a lot of sexual gambits right here on girlschase (8 orgasms routine, smell my hair/beard by teevester are great ones that come to mind). Pick one that you like and introduce it as casually as you can during conversation.

3) act naturally towards sex...guys who are afraid to sex talk get nowhere...you must be comfortable talking about it with girls...I remember one day that I was in a bar with my two best friends and we started to talk loudly and in graphic detail about our sexual escapades...soon enough flocks of chicks started to come closer and eavesdrop on what we were saying...women love to talk freely about sex, specially with men that don't judge them.

4) do not wait to set the second date...strike when the iron is hot....there's no rule against texting her the very next day to set up date number two. More time passes, more detached she becomes of that first great experience she had with you...it's not when you text...it's what you text that matters. You can use something you guys already talked about...example:
"wow, just remembered what you said about X (insert her sexual story from date)...
mental note: do not mess with (insert her name), she's dangerous!
nah, just kidding, I had fun...we should do that again
tell you what, shoot me your schedule for this week so we can figure it out"

Once she agrees, now it's time to give her plausible deniability (very important) and ask her to come over to your place (or a hotel/airbnn). Some examples here: https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/how-to-increase-odds-after-having-sex-with-a-girl-for-the-1st-time

Hope it helps.

~POB

Thanks for the advice, I will keep it in mind.
I am a little bit scared of using the sex-talk approach here in Poland, since not all girls seem to be so open about it. (If I ask them straight about a personal sexual experience they might feel uncomfortable).
Also and most importantly, don't you think I could come off as a player and thus be discarded?
On the other hand, it's true that if I managed to have a successful conversation about sex with them, I will definetily stand out.

I must definetily test it.
I just need to find a way to introduce and treat the topic very softly, and specially, to avoid being seen as a player.

It might have potential to work wonders.


By the way, why should the 1st date be so short?