FR She didn't feel the vibe to kiss and said next time somewhere more romantic

[ChrisXKiss]

Let's give this a go, quite frustrating again but here we are.

Meeting

We had met with this girl when I was doing night street game about a month ago. She had been sitting down at some square, had felt very receptive right away, and we had connected over our love for dancing in the few minutes she had had before going for her train. She had told me she was generally busy, after a few back and forth texts during this month I eventually managed to get her out for a date. Quite hot, more than I remembered in fact and it probably shocked me a bit in the beginning when I saw her today.

We had a date at 8pm, she texted she needed 15 minutes extra so I walked around doing some approaches. I kinda lost track of time and was talking to another girl when she called me to tell me she came, I took the number of the other girl and went back to the meeting point. There I saw her, very well dressed, with the high heels around my height, I greeted with kind of a hug, then we went into cheek kisses, and I took a step back and told her she looks wonderful.

She said I was late, I told her I had an urgent call, and she was like ok I was late first so I will forgive you. To this I answered with a playfully ironic oh thank you. We had talked about having dinner, so I asked in what mood she is, she said eating a bit and having a drink, so we started walking towards a place I knew in the area. While walking we talked a bit about our days, then she went on talking about some coworkers of hers telling her stories of their travels and how she also wants to go.

So I told her that I guess she likes travelling, so she is adventurous and likes experiencing life, she said yes, she wants to travel a lot and I said I like that. Then she asked about my day, and I said it was chill, and she told me that yeah I do look chill generally.

Arriving at the Bar/Restaurant

As we arrived at the place and got in she said if we can sit outside, and I said sure I wasn't gonna force her to sit inside. We took some food from the buffet of the place and went to the cashier. He asked me in the local language if we would pay together, I kinda made a reaction like I did not understand and then looked at her, since she knows the local language. She didn't react at all, then the cashier asked again in English, and I said oh yeah it's about paying, I'll take care of it.

Just a comment here, I had a pretty weird vibe throughout this whole thing until this point, I was feeling it, but could not control it at all. I'm not sure what happened, maybe I found her hotter than I thought, and she felt too confident and in control somehow from the beginning. At least I was hard all this time, so I know there was some energy there, but I felt I had one awkward reaction after the other.

Anyway we took the food and found a place outside to sit down. Two big armchairs with some gap between them so surely not the best setting seduction wise, but there was nothing that better there. At that point I was feeling so off with all the previous missteps, that I was honestly thinking this is a pretty lost cause already, with me just paying a dinner and a drink, so I felt a bit like yolo, go and direct the conversation however you want and don't care.

Conversation Sitting down

When we sat down I asked her if she is spoiled. The idea was that she wanted a drink served in a very specific way. She thought about it for a second and said a bit, is it bad? I told her that yeah, there have to be some limits to it, but at least I like her general energy. She then told me that I went for a safe drink myself while she tried to experiment and asked if I am safe in general. I said that yeah I am absolutely safe and boring nothing exciting or adventurous in my life. She tried her drink, even let me try and then in fact she went back to change it to something else and came telling me she chose something safe.

She started smoking, asked me if I mind, and I told her I do, so I would prefer if she put the smoke towards the other side. After that she asked me what I studied. I had her guess, she said biology so I was like it was good to know you enjoy your drink but I am out, playfully making a move like I was leaving. I then told her I did physics, and she asked why and what I liked so I told her about how you understand everything in the universe and it's the most exciting thing and it also shows you how unimportant most every day issues really are. I talked for a bit long there, so I realised it and asked back what she is doing.

She told me it's something common so I guessed business and I was right. She also said she studied communication, she loves it and people open up a lot with her, because she feels very safe and open herself. She really loves it and is very happy in her life, in fact she said not happy but content, and that at this moment everything goes very well which is a bit scary. I asked her if she was always like that and she told me no she had to release some pain from her past. So I said I really appreciate that she worked on herself and asked what kind of pain that was.

She paused for a second and as she was answering I could see her almost tear up. She said how people had a lot of expectations from her when she was growing up and made her feel like she was not enough and then she managed to identify this and get over it. I came a bit close and told her that I really appreciated that she opened up like that to me, also touched her leg there, one of the few times since she was not that close, and I didn't want to be leaning towards her a lot.

I told her how I understand how she felt since there were many expectations for me as well when growing up, and at some point you realise that you have to do what fulfils you and enjoy life to the fullest, because I believe we only have one life and we have to make the best of moments like these.

She told me that she felt the most difficult part was to realise where all this pain and trauma was because most people don't, I basically completed her sentence at that point, and then it was easier to work with it and overcome it.

I also asked if she went into communication because of this exploration of herself, and she said no she always liked it since she was young and she felt she was made for this. I asked her if it is her dream she would want to do forever and she said she doesn't really have a very specific plan but she believe that as long as she loves it and is talented at it she will always find a way.

She asked me how I developed the approach towards the world I have. I told her some analogies, how physics is very logical and it helps you put things into perspective, realise how most people really argue for things that are never right or wrong, you realise that a lot of stuff is bullshit, and you just appreciate your life and live it as you desire, which is also why I approached her, I felt something and wanting to express it. She told me she totally agrees with that.

There was a gap in the conversation, so I asked her how she is with guys. And I told her to wait a sec because I have a feeling most guys would be intimidated by a girl like her, and that it's either that she meets extremely needy guys who would be a mat for her or guys that don't care about her personality at all and would only see her as someone hot. She told me I was exactly spot on and that she does feel she intimidates men, and that she gets a lot of attention which she likes of course, but they don't really come up to her to talk to her normally.

She also said she had a long term boyfriend since she was 18 for some years and the relationship was great, she cared a lot about her and that is her standard now, and cannot believe how people settle for less. I asked the important parts of a relationship for her, she said being appreciated, brutal honesty, and communication. She asked if I've had girlfriends, I said yes I've had, which is a lie by the way but I think it was needed. I also asked why they broke up then, and she just said that it was the time she was discovering herself and her priorities changed and she wasn't feeling happy anymore.

She asked me then how I worked with myself and understanding people, because I had said that physics and communicating with people don't match well together. I told her by talking to them and experiencing all different kinds of people. I also joked that I don't see her as an experiment, I felt something more with her but we'll see, I enjoy the communication. I also said I act and this helps getting in the shoes of someone else.

I then asked her what she does for fun and if she has something artistic. She in fact said she feels she would be a famous actress in another life and I asked her why not in this one. She said she doesn't have time, and I told her you can be an actor at any age, don't need to do it in your 20s, you can always get there if you work for it, and asked if she has taken any classes. She said no she only participated in some school plays and in some video for her company that people came and praised her performance.

She also said that she loves dancing and I said that yeah we had talked about it the first time we met and she has something very sensual coming from her, and you have to really be in touch with yourself to express yourself through dancing, and she agreed.

Trying to pull

At some point as she had finished her drink and food while I had some more food left, she said she wanted to go grab another drink. I said we could go somewhere else, we stayed there for a while, and she agreed and asked if I know another place. I told her my home is close and we can go chill there, and she said she is not coming to my place the first time we meet. I said, why, what are you thinking we are gonna do, I'm only taking you there if you behave.

She was still saying no, so I said what if we go take a bottle of wine from there with two glasses and go drink at a nice place I know. She was saying that she doesn't want to walk with these high heels and her feet hurt, I said she could hold onto me, she was like I am too tall, and i jokingly said yeah I am very weak would never make it.

I asked her how much time she has, she told me she wanted to leave in about half an hour to go prepare for sleeping, putting all her creams and everything, and I teased her saying she is so girly. Eventually we agreed to go to another bar close to there after finishing my food in few minutes.

Sex Talk

At that point I straight up asked her how she views sex, because she didn't mention it at all when talking about the important things in a relationship. She said that she took for granted that the sex has to be good, and maybe the first time it doesn't need to be great, but after 2-3 times if it's not good she is not staying.

I agreed and told her how it really gets better with time as you get to know each other and their fantasies. I asked her on of her biggest fantasies, she said she was not gonna talk about it there, so I said I can also tell one of mine and told her how I like public sex and the excitement that people may sometimes realise you are there and walk away. I asked her back and she still didn't want to tell me so I playfully said she tricked me in revealing mine.

Then I talked a bit longer and said how people jump too early in relationships sometimes before they get to know each other. And that there needs to be a period where you see how you connect mentally, spiritually and sexually to decide that yes I want to spend more time with this person, and straight away dating only one thinking they are a relationship prospect is not effective. You have to feel each other, if there is not attraction you can be just friends but if there is you need time to see the rest and how it will eventually evolve.

I also mentioned how society puts a lot of rules, like women not being forward or showing their interest because they will be called easy or sluts, and I said that people should communicate openly and express their desires, not wait and hope. She was saying that dating was always difficult though and I told her that yes there were different difficulties but the masculine and feminine roles were more defined, and as a man I appreciate being with a feminine woman, feeling her next to me, touching her and appreciating her energy. I had a visible smile talking about these things while looking at her and I even told how much these thoughts make me smile.

I also said that sex in the end is not just about putting something into something else, we can have orgasms by ourselves at home, it's about the connection, being present together and enjoying each other, and I told her there is nothing I love more than being there with a woman and appreciating her whole essence.

She was basically listening through all that mostly seeming to agree, and when I realised I had almost finished my food, took me a bit longer because I was talking, I told her to go and walk. She checked her phone and told me the time had passed and she should better go home.

After the Bar/Restaurant till Parting Ways

We started walking towards her bus and during that she mentioned her heels again and how although it is painful to wear she just loves them. I told her that I truly appreciate that because I find high heels really sexy, and she was surprised saying that a lot of guys don't like them because they make her look really tall. I told her that if I didn't like that she is tall I wouldn't be there with her and also that especially because I know they hurt I appreciate how she put them on for me.

We reached the bus station, I leaned by a wall and she was smoking, and as we were talking about smoke and how it smells I told her to come closer and I maybe I can tell her. She leaned next to me at the wall facing in front, I turned and looked at her and told her I enjoyed the time. She said that it was probably better than I expected, and I asked her what she expected and she said she had no expectations really.

Then I told her while looking at her that there is one last thing I'd like to check. She told me she would like to throw away the cigarette first and as she was coming back, while I was still leaning by the wall, she said that she doesn't really feel the vibe for a kiss right now in the middle of the people in the bus station or the bus, so maybe it's better to leave for the next time in the more romantic place with the drinks.

I told her that I said nothing about kissing she is just thinking about it all the the time, told her "come here" and had her lean her head on my shoulder a bit while I was hugging her with one arm.

Soon we went into the bus, I was going out after two stations. She went to sit and I went as well, she told me she wanted to sit and she is sorry because it felt like I wanted to stand, and I told her I don't really care whether I stand or sit.

As we were sitting for these few minutes, I was lightly massaging her head, I went in and gave her a kiss on the cheek, and told her the rest is left for the next time, if at some point we meet again. I looked into her and told her she is interesting, she told me I am too, and I was getting ready to go down I pointed at my cheek and she kissed it. When I exited I gave her a final wave.

And to finish with another comment, as you realise the whole vibe went again towards pretty weird in the end. I am not even sure why I went for these cheek kisses and what I wanted, maybe some strange way to build anticipation for next time, and in the end when I exited the bus, I turned around to wave her but she wasn't really looking and I felt it was a bit chasey.

Conclusions

All in all, I'll be honest, I am extremely frustrated after this one. Not so much for the girl herself, I'm kinda past that, there will be more, but it felt to me like she was totally in control most of the time, except for when I was stopping her to ask something when we were sitting. But the beginning and the end felt so off to me, and it didn't feel like I could do something about it.

The latest dates I'm having in fact all feel like the groundhog day. The girl is generally not uninterested, I mean she is at a date with me anyway so surely there is some attraction. But no matter what I say or do the sex is not happening.

Whether they decline my request to come home or they just come home but do nothing, it feels like I am constantly trying to have them sleep with me without getting it. It affects my headspace to the point that I go to dates these days and I kinda feel I am gonna waste more hours from my life for women I will never sleep with.

And I really don't know how sexual I should be to be considered a lover. Today I even tried to show direct sexual intent right away when I looked at her and told her she looks wonderful with seductive eyes. I felt that maybe I am too platonic in general, but then I was touching her from time to time especially when we weren't sitting, but I could not see any sign for more.

I even tried to have her open up to the point that she was tearing up, so I feel I did try both to be sexual and to connect with her. I am not saying there is not room for improvement, but I just feel I don't know how I should change my vibe to have girls go from: he is a cute guy that likes me, to: I really want to sleep with this guy.

I made a number of strange moves in this one and I think the beginning point was the tension I felt when meeting her today, I got very excited. And on one hand I wanted to fully let her experience it as a state transfer so that maybe she would be more primed for sex, but on the other hand I wanted to stay generally cool to not look needy. So the balancing of these two things I was trying confused me and I wasn't sure whether to act very sexual or very cool to what she was giving me, with the result being me just acting awkward and the Murphy law taking effect.

And the interesting thing is that apart from liking her externally, her approach towards life made her even more interesting in my eyes. There was a moment I don't exactly remember when, that I even told her that what she had just said was one of the most attractive things I had heard lately and I meant it. But in the end it feels like it doesn't matter if I genuinely like them and express it, the sex is for other guys.

I feel that I just ooze a craving for sex at this point in my life that simply pushes them away. I cannot explain it in any other way, but I also don't know what else to do. I mean I am approaching them, meeting them, going on dates in order to get to sex, that's the whole point of the skill: to get better at getting sex. When I know I can get it easily I will think about focusing on different things, but when I am not even getting the result that matters at all, how can I have my mind on anything other than what to tweak to get sex?

I am not sure if I am too harsh on me, but sometimes I feel I am not harsh enough and I should be figuring stuff out after meeting all these women. In every interaction it feels like something different will find a way to go wrong.

Maybe at some point things will eventually click.

Update:

I sent her a text after the date telling her that it was a nice time tonight and hope she got home safe.

She replied: I'm in bed. Our deep conversation was perfect for unwinding after a day of work and also to remind myself how much I've grown. Thank you.

Not even sure what kind of zone that is...

 

[Will_V]

@ChrisXKiss the main things I think were missing here:

- Leading and commanding the frame
- Pacing her reality and deep diving her - a couple of specific opportunities seem to have been missed

You handled some things very well, especially by not giving her a free pass when there was something you didn't like, but overall I think she didn't really feel a sense of your direction and impetus, and concluded that you wouldn't be able to keep up with the sort of world she lives in.

There I saw her, very well dressed, with the high heels around my height, I greeted with kind of a hug, then we went into cheek kisses, and I took a step back and told her she looks wonderful.

She said I was late, I told her I had an urgent call, and she was like ok I was late first so I will forgive you. To this I answered with a playfully ironic oh thank you.

When a girl is testy like this right off the bat it's usually a signal to me that she feels too in control, and so I adjust things so that I'm more commanding in general, or brusque with her if she challenges me again. The way you respond early in the interaction can set the tone for what comes after.

The way you responded here can work if a girl is a little self conscious, but if she's very confident she might take it as a slight submission to her frame. And it's clear she's feeling confident - she's well-dressed and hot with high heels and not afraid to complain. When she said she forgave you probably best to just ignore and start moving her.

We had talked about having dinner, so I asked in what mood she is, she said eating a bit and having a drink, so we started walking towards a place I knew in the area.

Asking what she's keen for is fine and good, but it's good to balance out with assertions of your own, so it's clear you're not chaperoning her.

You: "Feeling hungry?"
Her: "Yeah I could do with some food and maybe a drink".
You: "Yeah I'm pretty famished myself, I know a good place."

Now you're going to have a meal and taking her along, vs. going there because she wants to. Tone and energy matters.

While walking we talked a bit about our days, then she went on talking about some coworkers of hers telling her stories of their travels and how she also wants to go.

I didn't see you expand on the topic of traveling at any point - it's a perfect segway for sex talk, since it's all about 'adventure' and 'spontaneity' and 'experiencing new things' etc.

There's also a sort of archetype of girl who is self-assured and extroverted and doesn't have many hobbies or artistic interests, and they seem to typically work in very social (and sometimes high-pressure social) environments, enjoy traveling and food, and don't really connect over anything particularly philosophical or deep. It can seem difficult to find commonality with them if you are a reflective or deep thinking person, but the main thing is to connect with them over adventures and 'in the moment' experiences, and not over ideas.

So I told her that I guess she likes travelling, so she is adventurous and likes experiencing life, she said yes, she wants to travel a lot and I said I like that. Then she asked about my day, and I said it was chill, and she told me that yeah I do look chill generally.

So first you could have expanded more on traveling and asked her more about why she likes it.

But the last part where you just say you had a chill day isn't the best. She's a busy girl and lives in a busy world, and you were supposedly on an urgent call which is why you were late, and then you're telling her there was nothing much about your day and it was chill. And where she says you look chill generally, doesn't sound like the best frame to be in for a girl like that.

Better I think would have been to be mysterious, look her in the eye and tell her something like 'you know, taking care of my interests' or something ambiguous like that, so it gives her something to chew on. These sort of overconfident girls always like to chew on things.

Arriving at the Bar/Restaurant

As we arrived at the place and got in she said if we can sit outside, and I said sure I wasn't gonna force her to sit inside. We took some food from the buffet of the place and went to the cashier. He asked me in the local language if we would pay together, I kinda made a reaction like I did not understand and then looked at her, since she knows the local language. She didn't react at all, then the cashier asked again in English, and I said oh yeah it's about paying, I'll take care of it.

Sounds a bit wonky tbh, the way you deal with stuff like ordering and paying for food is a sign to her of the way you deal with things in life generally. You want to be smooth and confident and not looking to her for any kind of lead.

When we sat down I asked her if she is spoiled. The idea was that she wanted a drink served in a very specific way. She thought about it for a second and said a bit, is it bad? I told her that yeah, there have to be some limits to it, but at least I like her general energy. She then told me that I went for a safe drink myself while she tried to experiment and asked if I am safe in general. I said that yeah I am absolutely safe and boring nothing exciting or adventurous in my life. She tried her drink, even let me try and then in fact she went back to change it to something else and came telling me she chose something safe.

I like the way you responded here, but I think it would have worked better if at other times you had made her feel more of the opposite - that you are not a guy who gets up in the morning and has a chill day with nothing much going on, for example.

She started smoking, asked me if I mind, and I told her I do, so I would prefer if she put the smoke towards the other side.

Good, you have to be assertive with women like this.

After that she asked me what I studied. I had her guess, she said biology so I was like it was good to know you enjoy your drink but I am out, playfully making a move like I was leaving. I then told her I did physics, and she asked why and what I liked so I told her about how you understand everything in the universe and it's the most exciting thing and it also shows you how unimportant most every day issues really are. I talked for a bit long there, so I realised it and asked back what she is doing.

This is a point where it seems like you start getting too deep and philosophical and losing her. Better to find out what she likes - dancing and traveling is what she seems to have mentioned so far - and deep dive her a bit on those. Would have made the transition to sex talk much smoother.

She told me it's something common so I guessed business and I was right. She also said she studied communication, she loves it and people open up a lot with her, because she feels very safe and open herself. She really loves it and is very happy in her life, in fact she said not happy but content, and that at this moment everything goes very well which is a bit scary. I asked her if she was always like that and she told me no she had to release some pain from her past. So I said I really appreciate that she worked on herself and asked what kind of pain that was.

She paused for a second and as she was answering I could see her almost tear up. She said how people had a lot of expectations from her when she was growing up and made her feel like she was not enough and then she managed to identify this and get over it. I came a bit close and told her that I really appreciated that she opened up like that to me, also touched her leg there, one of the few times since she was not that close, and I didn't want to be leaning towards her a lot.

I told her how I understand how she felt since there were many expectations for me as well when growing up, and at some point you realise that you have to do what fulfils you and enjoy life to the fullest, because I believe we only have one life and we have to make the best of moments like these.

Good stuff.

She asked me how I developed the approach towards the world I have. I told her some analogies, how physics is very logical and it helps you put things into perspective, realise how most people really argue for things that are never right or wrong, you realise that a lot of stuff is bullshit, and you just appreciate your life and live it as you desire, which is also why I approached her, I felt something and wanting to express it. She told me she totally agrees with that.

This is good, because it connects with her (living life in the moment) and qualifies why you went to talk to her in the first place.

There was a gap in the conversation, so I asked her how she is with guys. And I told her to wait a sec because I have a feeling most guys would be intimidated by a girl like her, and that it's either that she meets extremely needy guys who would be a mat for her or guys that don't care about her personality at all and would only see her as someone hot. She told me I was exactly spot on and that she does feel she intimidates men, and that she gets a lot of attention which she likes of course, but they don't really come up to her to talk to her normally.

She also said she had a long term boyfriend since she was 18 for some years and the relationship was great, she cared a lot about her and that is her standard now, and cannot believe how people settle for less. I asked the important parts of a relationship for her, she said being appreciated, brutal honesty, and communication. She asked if I've had girlfriends, I said yes I've had, which is a lie by the way but I think it was needed. I also asked why they broke up then, and she just said that it was the time she was discovering herself and her priorities changed and she wasn't feeling happy anymore.

This was an opportunity to bring a lot more out of her.

- What was she discovering about herself?
- What experiences did she have after that that she hadn't had before?
- What are the things she needs to express about herself that the relationship was smothering?

etc.

I then asked her what she does for fun and if she has something artistic. She in fact said she feels she would be a famous actress in another life and I asked her why not in this one. She said she doesn't have time, and I told her you can be an actor at any age, don't need to do it in your 20s, you can always get there if you work for it, and asked if she has taken any classes. She said no she only participated in some school plays and in some video for her company that people came and praised her performance.

She also said that she loves dancing and I said that yeah we had talked about it the first time we met and she has something very sensual coming from her, and you have to really be in touch with yourself to express yourself through dancing, and she agreed.

Not bad, but don't forget to press her on things before qualifying her, and make her feel like she's earned it.

Trying to pull

At some point as she had finished her drink and food while I had some more food left, she said she wanted to go grab another drink. I said we could go somewhere else, we stayed there for a while, and she agreed and asked if I know another place. I told her my home is close and we can go chill there, and she said she is not coming to my place the first time we meet. I said, why, what are you thinking we are gonna do, I'm only taking you there if you behave.

I think the vibe here wasn't ready for a pull.

Not sure what the exact context was about her behaving, but I think being more straightforward might have worked better, e.g. look her in the eye and smile and say 'what, are you thinking I'm just going to jump all over you as we walk in the door? It's more relaxed and quiet there, come on'. That way even if she still refuses she can feel your confidence and assertion.

She was still saying no, so I said what if we go take a bottle of wine from there with two glasses and go drink at a nice place I know. She was saying that she doesn't want to walk with these high heels and her feet hurt, I said she could hold onto me, she was like I am too tall, and i jokingly said yeah I am very weak would never make it. Then I also told her that if I didn't like that she is tall I wouldn't be there with her.

Too much qualification imo, she didn't wear the heels because she's worried about being too tall.

I would have said something like 'yeah looks like I'd have to throw you over my shoulder and carry you'.

I asked her how much time she has, she told me she wanted to leave in about half an hour to go prepare for sleeping, putting all her creams and everything, and I teased her saying she is so girly. Eventually we agreed to go to another bar close to there after finishing my food in few minutes.

Letting her lead the frame here, making it sound like you're running on her schedule, not good.

Sex Talk

At that point I straight up asked her how she views sex, because she didn't mention it at all when talking about the important things in a relationship. She said that she took for granted that the sex has to be good, and maybe the first time it doesn't need to be great, but after 2-3 times if it's not good she is not staying.

I agreed and told her how it really gets better with time as you get to know each other and their fantasies. I asked her on of her biggest fantasies, she said she was not gonna talk about it there, so I said I can also tell one of mine and told her how I like public sex and the excitement that people may sometimes realise you are there and walk away. I asked her back and she still didn't want to tell me so I playfully said she tricked me in revealing mine.

Then I talked a bit longer and said how people jump too early in relationships sometimes before they get to know each other. And that there needs to be a period where you see how you connect mentally, spiritually and sexually to decide that yes I want to spend more time with this person, and straight away dating only one thinking they are a relationship prospect is not effective. You have to feel each other, if there is not attraction you can be just friends but if there is you need time to see the rest and how it will eventually evolve.

I also mentioned how society puts a lot of rules, like women not being forward or showing their interest because they will be called easy or sluts, and I said that people should communicate openly and express their desires, not wait and hope. She was saying that dating was always difficult though and I told her that yes there were different difficulties but the masculine and feminine roles were more defined, and as a man I appreciate being with a feminine woman, feeling her next to me, touching her and appreciating her energy. I had a visible smile talking about these things while looking at her and I even told how much these thoughts make me smile.

I also said that sex in the end is not just about putting something into something else, we can have orgasms by ourselves at home, it's about the connection, being present together and enjoying each other, and I told her there is nothing I love more than being there with a woman and appreciating her whole essence.

She was basically listening through all that mostly seeming to agree

OK here is where things went south. You aren't pacing her at all and she doesn't seem to be in a sexual state, so talking about public sex (which some girls might like and others might not, and the ones that do might only like it when they're in a certain mood) isn't a good move. It sort of comes out of nowhere.

And then you're basically delivering a long speech without much of her participation, so you don't really know how she's evaluating it. I have a feeling this is what she's referring to when she says later on about how the conversation reminded her of how much she's grown. Because if she's not in state, all that sort of stuff can easily trigger her defenses like 'i'm not that sort of girl'.

Sex talk is like a dance, not a one-sided exhibition. It has to start slowly, and she has to come with you into it, contribute and add to it and respond to your lead, and sometimes go out ahead of you and sometimes fall in behind you, so you're moving together in sync deeper and deeper into it. The last thing you want is her sitting there quiet while you talk about all the stuff you like.

After the Bar/Restaurant till Parting Ways

We started walking towards her bus and during that she mentioned her heels again and how although it is painful to wear she just loves them. I told her that I truly appreciate that because I find high heels really sexy, and she was surprised saying that a lot of guys don't like them because they make her look really tall. I told her that if I didn't like that she is tall I wouldn't be there with her and also that especially because I know they hurt I appreciate how she put them on for me.

We reached the bus station, I leaned by a wall and she was smoking, and as we were talking about smoke and how it smells I told her to come closer and I maybe I can tell her. She leaned next to me at the wall facing in front, I turned and looked at her and told her I enjoyed the time. She said that it was probably better than I expected, and I asked her what she expected and she said she had no expectations really.

Then I told her while looking at her that there is one last thing I'd like to check. She told me she would like to throw away the cigarette first and as she was coming back, while I was still leaning by the wall, she said that she doesn't really feel the vibe for a kiss right now in the middle of the people in the bus station or the bus, so maybe it's better to leave for the next time in the more romantic place with the drinks.

I told her that I said nothing about kissing she is just thinking about it all the the time, told her "come here" and had her lean her head on my shoulder a bit while I was hugging her with one arm.

Soon we went into the bus, I was going out after two stations. She went to sit and I went as well, she told me she wanted to sit and she is sorry because it felt like I wanted to stand, and I told her I don't really care whether I stand or sit.

As we were sitting for these few minutes I went in and gave her a kiss on the cheek, and told her the rest is left for the next time, if at some point we meet again. I looked into her and told her she is interesting, she told me I am too, and I was getting ready to go down I pointed at my cheek and she kissed it. When I exited I gave her a final wave.

And to finish with another comment, as you realise the whole vibe went again towards pretty weird in the end. I am not even sure why I went for these cheek kisses and what I wanted, maybe some strange way to build anticipation for next time, and in the end when I exited the bus, I turned around to wave her but she wasn't really looking and I felt it was a bit chasey.

Yeah at this point I think she's feeling too little commonality or vibe so it's hard to do anything to improve things.

Conclusions

All in all, I'll be honest, I am extremely frustrated after this one. Not so much for the girl herself, I'm kinda past that, there will be more, but it felt to me like she was totally in control most of the time, except for when I was stopping her to ask something when we were sitting. But the beginning and the end felt so off to me, and it didn't feel like I could do something about it.

Be more assertive and brusque, like she's on your time and not the other way around.

Whether they decline my request to come home or they just come home but do nothing, it feels like I am constantly trying to have them sleep with me without getting it. It affects my headspace to the point that I go to dates these days and I kinda feel I am gonna waste more hours from my life for women I will never sleep with.

Look at it this way: imagine if you could go on a date with a girl, and you really wanted to sleep with her, but you couldn't talk about anything sexual and couldn't touch her at all. How would you make her feel like you're the kind of guy she wants to get fucked by?

The level of your intensity, self-confidence, assertiveness, the way you qualify or tease her in different moments, the level of energy and the sense of dominance and agency you seem to have over your own life and reality, it all contributes to how she feels sexually about you.

Sex talk, touching, and other forms of escalation are mainly just a way to bring out what she feels about you into the realm of practical reality where it can be acted upon.

It seems to me that your presentation and vibe and the way you come across just isn't matching the way that you project your sexual frame and sexual intent, so these women are kind of listening to your words but not feeling it.

You don't have to come across terribly experienced or like some kind of veteran, but she does have to feel the core of you as something with real force and energy and potency, something that her feminine sexual instinct for submission responds to at a deep level.

 

[Gorili]

@ChrisXKiss,

I know @Will_V provided a detailed analysis, but I'll also chime in with my 2 cents. The key issues from my perspective are:

• Lack of dominance and not showing that you're running the show
• Using tactics at the wrong time, specifically delayed timing
• Some awkward moments

We had a date at 8pm, she texted she needed 15 minutes extra so I walked around doing some approaches. I kinda lost track of time and was talking to another girl when she called me to tell me she came, I took the number of the other girl and went back to the meeting point. There I saw her, very well dressed, with the high heels around my height, I greeted with kind of a hug, then we went into cheek kisses, and I took a step back and told her she looks wonderful.

She said I was late, I told her I had an urgent call, and she was like ok I was late first so I will forgive you. To this I answered with a playfully ironic oh thank you.

I would've retorted and said she's a hypocrite and the one who's late in the first place. As a result, I would've addressed her "forgiveness" head-on by saying that you're forgiving her, not the other way around, and you were thinking of running off and finding something better to do.

Note that you gave her a compliment at first, and she calls you out for being late... A girl of another type would probably not have done this. This girl will be likely testing how you react all night.

As we arrived at the place and got in she said if we can sit outside, and I said sure I wasn't gonna force her to sit inside. We took some food from the buffet of the place and went to the cashier. He asked me in the local language if we would pay together, I kinda made a reaction like I did not understand and then looked at her, since she knows the local language. She didn't react at all, then the cashier asked again in English, and I said oh yeah it's about paying, I'll take care of it.

Just a comment here, I had a pretty weird vibe throughout this whole thing until this point, I was feeling it, but could not control it at all. I'm not sure what happened, maybe I found her hotter than I thought, and she felt too confident and in control somehow from the beginning. At least I was hard all this time, so I know there was some energy there, but I felt I had one awkward reaction after the other.

Since this is her native language and not yours, after the waiter asks the 1st time, I would hold out the one moment sign with my hand to the waiter (with index and thumb out). Then, I would turn and say to her "hey, what is he saying? Bruh, you're supposed to be my translator tonight. So far I'm gonna give you an F for being a bad translator." After she translates, I would've told her to tell the waiter that we're splitting this half and half. You're wrestling the frame back. This also creates a "we" frame instead of her using you as a free dinner pass.

Two big armchairs with some gap between them so surely not the best setting seduction wise, but there was nothing that better there.

Can't you just pick up the chair (assuming it's not bolted to the ground) and move it right next to her? If not, you can always play footsies with her. Your feet just need to be in proximity. This will help with the touch

At that point I was feeling so off with all the previous missteps, that I was honestly thinking this is a pretty lost cause already, with me just paying a dinner and a drink, so I felt a bit like yolo, go and direct the conversation however you want and don't care.

Alright, so what you can do here is to excuse yourself and use the bathroom. Go take a piss and take 3 deep breaths with your eyes closed. Picture the conquest. Make mental notes of what's working well, what's not, and come up with a plan of attack. Do not wing this shit. You can be in there for 5 mins and go back to your table after.

When we sat down I asked her if she is spoiled. The idea was that she wanted a drink served in a very specific way.

This seems like it came out of nowhere. I would've either returned to the traveling topic from the beginning or about dancing from your initial meet. Reason is essentially you guys were vibing well during the beginning but all this buffet, paying, sitting down has "disturbed" the good vibe previously. There's an article on the main site about how each room / venue you enter brings its own moods with it and can even disturb a good connection from moments before, so this is something to be aware of.

She then told me that I went for a safe drink myself while she tried to experiment and asked if I am safe in general. I said that yeah I am absolutely safe and boring nothing exciting or adventurous in my life.

Bruh did you really say this??

To me, it comes across like you're qualifying yourself to her as a boring guy and shooting yourself in the foot, like a DLV. This is a girl who needs a guy who she thinks is above her, someone who she can't quite handle. I would've said some outrageous crap at this point with a half-joking tone:

1. "Safe, I'm a drug dealer during my free time. I specialize in fentanyl. Have you tried it before? Let me get you some from my stash tonight"
2. "Actually, I don't use condoms with any of the girls that I meet. So to answer your question, you tell me"

She started smoking, asked me if I mind, and I told her I do, so I would prefer if she put the smoke towards the other side. After that she asked me what I studied. I had her guess, she said biology so I was like it was good to know you enjoy your drink but I am out, playfully making a move like I was leaving. I then told her I did physics, and she asked why and what I liked so I told her about how you understand everything in the universe and it's the most exciting thing and it also shows you how unimportant most every day issues really are. I talked for a bit long there, so I realised it and asked back what she is doing.

She told me it's something common so I guessed business and I was right. She also said she studied communication, she loves it and people open up a lot with her, because she feels very safe and open herself. She really loves it and is very happy in her life, in fact she said not happy but content, and that at this moment everything goes very well which is a bit scary. I asked her if she was always like that and she told me no she had to release some pain from her past. So I said I really appreciate that she worked on herself and asked what kind of pain that was.

She paused for a second and as she was answering I could see her almost tear up. She said how people had a lot of expectations from her when she was growing up and made her feel like she was not enough and then she managed to identify this and get over it. I came a bit close and told her that I really appreciated that she opened up like that to me, also touched her leg there, one of the few times since she was not that close, and I didn't want to be leaning towards her a lot.

I told her how I understand how she felt since there were many expectations for me as well when growing up, and at some point you realise that you have to do what fulfils you and enjoy life to the fullest, because I believe we only have one life and we have to make the best of moments like these.

She told me that she felt the most difficult part was to realise where all this pain and trauma was because most people don't, I basically completed her sentence at that point, and then it was easier to work with it and overcome it.

I also asked if she went into communication because of this exploration of herself, and she said no she always liked it since she was young and she felt she was made for this. I asked her if it is her dream she would want to do forever and she said she doesn't really have a very specific plan but she believe that as long as she loves it and is talented at it she will always find a way.

She asked me how I developed the approach towards the world I have. I told her some analogies, how physics is very logical and it helps you put things into perspective, realise how most people really argue for things that are never right or wrong, you realise that a lot of stuff is bullshit, and you just appreciate your life and live it as you desire, which is also why I approached her, I felt something and wanting to express it. She told me she totally agrees with that.

This is really good. The way that you had her open up and related it back to yourself significantly amplified similarity of attitudes and was awesome. I would've thrown in a gambit or two about connections and chemistry in the mix, but that's just me.

There was a gap in the conversation, so I asked her how she is with guys. And I told her to wait a sec because I have a feeling most guys would be intimidated by a girl like her, and that it's either that she meets extremely needy guys who would be a mat for her or guys that don't care about her personality at all and would only see her as someone hot. She told me I was exactly spot on and that she does feel she intimidates men, and that she gets a lot of attention which she likes of course, but they don't really come up to her to talk to her normally.

She also said she had a long term boyfriend since she was 18 for some years and the relationship was great, she cared a lot about her and that is her standard now, and cannot believe how people settle for less. I asked the important parts of a relationship for her, she said being appreciated, brutal honesty, and communication. She asked if I've had girlfriends, I said yes I've had, which is a lie by the way but I think it was needed. I also asked why they broke up then, and she just said that it was the time she was discovering herself and her priorities changed and she wasn't feeling happy anymore.

I would've put all of the sex talk stuff right after this. Keep the topic on sex and relationships for now and do not let it stray until you've gotten your viewpoints across and cemented the relevant sexual frames. Will have more comments on this later.

I had said that physics and communicating with people don't match well together

I'm not sure when you first verbalized this, but if I knew that she was in communications by the time that I was about to say this, I would've totally avoided making this statement. Think about it, it's like saying you're water and she's oil and you guys just don't mix well. It's creating dissimilarity.

She also said that she loves dancing and I said that yeah we had talked about it the first time we met and she has something very sensual coming from her, and you have to really be in touch with yourself to express yourself through dancing, and she agreed.

This topic about dancing should've gone way, way earlier in the conversation. You could've actively brought it up. Remember how well you guys connected on this during the initial meet.

Trying to pull

At some point as she had finished her drink and food while I had some more food left, she said she wanted to go grab another drink. I said we could go somewhere else, we stayed there for a while, and she agreed and asked if I know another place. I told her my home is close and we can go chill there, and she said she is not coming to my place the first time we meet. I said, why, what are you thinking we are gonna do, I'm only taking you there if you behave.

She was still saying no, so I said what if we go take a bottle of wine from there with two glasses and go drink at a nice place I know.

Three pointers here:

1. For the pull back home, you could've seeded this much earlier, like when you guys were talking about how your days were at the beginning. You could've casually mentioned that you live nearby and have a bottle of vintage wine or something that you've been waiting to try
2. It's very clear that she wasn't ready to go home with you yet but was open to moving to another location with you. This is exactly where the 3 bounce method comes in. I think Skills or someone has a guide. Essentially, you bounce her to another location and see if she's compliant enough to go home. If not, bounce again. Since this is late in the evening, good places are dessert stores, parks, and beaches. Just make sure they're open and not sketchy. They don't have to be fancy. I've bounced girls across 3 parks before but I was in the city for the 1st time so they probably cut me some slack... 3 bounce was the higher odds move here. I'm confident you still had a chance with her that night up to this point
3. Related to the point above, the sexual frame was lacking. That is why I mentioned earlier that all the sex talk stuff should've came earlier. If it did, who knows? Maybe she might've even be ready to go home with you at this point

She was still saying no, so I said what if we go take a bottle of wine from there with two glasses and go drink at a nice place I know. She was saying that she doesn't want to walk with these high heels and her feet hurt

Interested in what other guys have to say, but my view is this is her excuse that she doesn't want to be within anywhere near your home at this point. She's not ready yet.

Note that she was still ready to go to another place with you just moments ago, so that's my rationale

i jokingly said yeah I am very weak would never make it

I don't know why you would say this It's making things more difficult

I asked her how much time she has, she told me she wanted to leave in about half an hour to go prepare for sleeping, putting all her creams and everything, and I teased her saying she is so girly

Similar to the above, BS excuse

I agreed and told her how it really gets better with time as you get to know each other and their fantasies. I asked her on of her biggest fantasies, she said she was not gonna talk about it there, so I said I can also tell one of mine and told her how I like public sex and the excitement that people may sometimes realise you are there and walk away. I asked her back and she still didn't want to tell me so I playfully said she tricked me in revealing mine.

So with these types of things like "what is your fantasy," you need to build it up. It came too pre-maturely here. I'm sure there are some gambits on the main site that you could use to elicit it, like the Narratives gambit

We started walking towards her bus and during that she mentioned her heels again and how although it is painful to wear she just loves them. I told her that I truly appreciate that because I find high heels really sexy, and she was surprised saying that a lot of guys don't like them because they make her look really tall. I told her that if I didn't like that she is tall I wouldn't be there with her and also that especially because I know they hurt I appreciate how she put them on for me.

We reached the bus station, I leaned by a wall and she was smoking, and as we were talking about smoke and how it smells I told her to come closer and I maybe I can tell her. She leaned next to me at the wall facing in front, I turned and looked at her and told her I enjoyed the time. She said that it was probably better than I expected, and I asked her what she expected and she said she had no expectations really.

I think you're complimenting her / giving her too much free validation. What has she said that she liked about you?

Then I told her while looking at her that there is one last thing I'd like to check. She told me she would like to throw away the cigarette first and as she was coming back, while I was still leaning by the wall, she said that she doesn't really feel the vibe for a kiss right now in the middle of the people in the bus station or the bus, so maybe it's better to leave for the next time in the more romantic place with the drinks.

I don't know about you, but that cigarette smell coming from her mouth is a huge turn off...

As we were sitting for these few minutes I went in and gave her a kiss on the cheek

Seems like you're rewarding her. I personally wouldn't have gone for it

 

[ChrisXKiss]

When a girl is testy like this right off the bat it's usually a signal to me that she feels too in control, and so I adjust things so that I'm more commanding in general, or brusque with her if she challenges me again. The way you respond early in the interaction can set the tone for what comes after.

The way you responded here can work if a girl is a little self conscious, but if she's very confident she might take it as a slight submission to her frame. And it's clear she's feeling confident - she's well-dressed and hot with high heels and not afraid to complain. When she said she forgave you probably best to just ignore and start moving her.

Yeah I also felt that right away, in fact I had felt it from our first meeting, the thing is I wasn't sure how to handle it exactly. My thinking was that I should be more commanding and dominant but at the same time I was kinda afraid that if I went too brusque it would put her off and we would be fighting all night long.

In general I have in mind to not go in very intensely because it can generate negative compliance, but I guess it's better to be taking the lead and if she says no, then figure out how to deal with it.

Asking what she's keen for is fine and good, but it's good to balance out with assertions of your own, so it's clear you're not chaperoning her.

You: "Feeling hungry?"
Her: "Yeah I could do with some food and maybe a drink".
You: "Yeah I'm pretty famished myself, I know a good place."

Now you're going to have a meal and taking her along, vs. going there because she wants to. Tone and energy matters.

I could even feel at that moment how accommodating that was. I am not even sure why I said it like that, since I knew exactly where I was taking her anyway. Clear Murphy's law in action. Maybe I am also used to more mellow girls and have not realised how much little things like this can impact the frame.

I didn't see you expand on the topic of traveling at any point - it's a perfect segway for sex talk, since it's all about 'adventure' and 'spontaneity' and 'experiencing new things' etc.

There's also a sort of archetype of girl who is self-assured and extroverted and doesn't have many hobbies or artistic interests, and they seem to typically work in very social (and sometimes high-pressure social) environments, enjoy traveling and food, and don't really connect over anything particularly philosophical or deep. It can seem difficult to find commonality with them if you are a reflective or deep thinking person, but the main thing is to connect with them over adventures and 'in the moment' experiences, and not over ideas.

Yeah, what happened is that we were walking towards the place and I felt it is too early to go deeper, I thought ok we can into that after sitting down let's keep it lighter for now. But it's true I never went back to it, I should have. I suppose I have an issue that if we talk about something for a bit, it feels weird to me to go back to it later in the conversation, but I shouldn't feel like that, the subject was not exhausted.

And I can see what you mean by this archetype, not sure if she was exactly that, but I've met girls around that would probably fit it and they have always felt like we cannot connect well. I should have in mind to connect over experiences.

But the last part where you just say you had a chill day isn't the best. She's a busy girl and lives in a busy world, and you were supposedly on an urgent call which is why you were late, and then you're telling her there was nothing much about your day and it was chill. And where she says you look chill generally, doesn't sound like the best frame to be in for a girl like that.

Better I think would have been to be mysterious, look her in the eye and tell her something like 'you know, taking care of my interests' or something ambiguous like that, so it gives her something to chew on. These sort of overconfident girls always like to chew on things.

I see your point about the chill comment. I told her that I am not working right now and looking for a job, so she knew that I wasn't that busy anyway. But I guess you can still be busy doing other things. I didn't connect it with the call by the way since I just used that as an excuse to be late, but I see how it could feel incongruent.

I feel sometimes I am too focused on expressing myself honestly, like the being chill comment, and expecting others to bend to the frame that ok that's how he is. And I thought that it was creating some mystery, in the sense that it would keep them wondering how can he be so chill, what is he doing with his life all the time?

But you are probably right, I should be creating this intrigue more actively by saying I am taking care of a bunch of stuff, and not really doing nothing.

Sounds a bit wonky tbh, the way you deal with stuff like ordering and paying for food is a sign to her of the way you deal with things in life generally. You want to be smooth and confident and not looking to her for any kind of lead.

Yeah again, no idea what I did there. I was ready to pay, but I think when we arrived I was thinking wait a minute, I'll pay for food and drinks for a date she already feels in control. And I was in a limbo of getting assertive and asking we split and just shrugging and paying anyway, which made me indecisive. Won't let it happen again.

I like the way you responded here, but I think it would have worked better if at other times you had made her feel more of the opposite - that you are not a guy who gets up in the morning and has a chill day with nothing much going on, for example.

That's true. I think my life lacks a bit of things going on right now in general, so it doesn't come naturally to express that, and I am constantly coming across extremely chill to all the girls I meet, so I feel it's becoming a problem at this point. I should change my vibe a bit.

This is a point where it seems like you start getting too deep and philosophical and losing her. Better to find out what she likes - dancing and traveling is what she seems to have mentioned so far - and deep dive her a bit on those. Would have made the transition to sex talk much smoother.

Yes, I had in mind to set some frames through physics, but I had quite a monologue. And true, I didn't get into these topics as much as I could.

This was an opportunity to bring a lot more out of her.

- What was she discovering about herself?
- What experiences did she have after that that she hadn't had before?
- What are the things she needs to express about herself that the relationship was smothering?

etc.

Yeah, for some weird reason I felt like not pressing her more there. Maybe I saw her almost tearing up before and didn't want her to go through that again, but it would have been valuable.

Not bad, but don't forget to press her on things before qualifying her, and make her feel like she's earned it.

True, this was too much. Maybe I thought we had discussed about dancing the other time so I could qualify her straight away, but it's been a while it doesn't work like that.

I think the vibe here wasn't ready for a pull.

Totally wasn't, but I felt that compared to staying there more for a drink, proposing going somewhere else would be better.

And the thing is I have been trying to be closing more, so basically in every opportunity for a transition I am proposing a pull at this point. Most of the times it feels early, so maybe it would be strategically better to go somewhere else first, build the vibe and then try to pull.

The thing is I am worried of getting too late if I take her to another place first and then propose pulling. So I don't want to lose my chance by spending more time moving her around and when I go to pull the trigger her telling me that now she has to go home and sleep.

Maybe if I go somewhere else and create a more intimate connection though she will not care about it being very late to come home with me?

Not sure what the exact context was about her behaving, but I think being more straightforward might have worked better, e.g. look her in the eye and smile and say 'what, are you thinking I'm just going to jump all over you as we walk in the door? It's more relaxed and quiet there, come on'. That way even if she still refuses she can feel your confidence and assertion.

I basically wanted to win the frame back by painting her as the one with the naughty thoughts that is thinking about sex and wants to take advantage of me when at home.

I really like the way you put it though, I do lack intense moments like these. I feel I am scared that it is bold and if it doesn't work it will be a huge negative compliance, but I suppose you have to show more assertiveness at some point.

Too much qualification imo, she didn't wear the heels because she's worried about being too tall.

I would have said something like 'yeah looks like I'd have to throw you over my shoulder and carry you'.

I think I may be confusing where I made the comment about liking her being tall, maybe it wasn't exactly there, because it feels a bit weird even for me to have said it exactly like that. I think I said it when we were walking towards the end. But it is true I probably qualified her a bit too much.

Also the thing is I couldn't carry her, so I never make comments like these, because if they simply respond:" You couldn't carry me", I am done. That's why I sometimes playfully mention that I am weak and maybe they could protect me, to show that I am fully ok with myself and my body. But maybe it sets wrong frames.

Letting her lead the frame here, making it sound like you're running on her schedule, not good.

Yeah, I mean I generally ask girls what they are up to later and how much time they have to see what we could go. For example if they tell me they have half an hour I am not gonna try to pull usually, because I think ok, ten minutes to get to my place, ten to settle in, at the moment we should be starting getting sexual they would want to go back.

What I may try to do is check if they have a later connection back home and then see how open they are at taking that. Especially if my place is close and I can go whenever but they have to take public transport, it feels logical to me to ask when they would have to leave.

But I guess it is too accommodating again. Maybe telling them to go somewhere for an hour and then I also want to sleep would be better. I am just afraid I am gonna do that and then if I try to pull or escalate they would be like: "Wait didn't you say that you wanted to sleep? Let's do it next time".

OK here is where things went south. You aren't pacing her at all and she doesn't seem to be in a sexual state, so talking about public sex (which some girls might like and others might not, and the ones that do might only like it when they're in a certain mood) isn't a good move. It sort of comes out of nowhere.

And then you're basically delivering a long speech without much of her participation, so you don't really know how she's evaluating it. I have a feeling this is what she's referring to when she says later on about how the conversation reminded her of how much she's grown. Because if she's not in state, all that sort of stuff can easily trigger her defenses like 'i'm not that sort of girl'.

Sex talk is like a dance, not a one-sided exhibition. It has to start slowly, and she has to come with you into it, contribute and add to it and respond to your lead, and sometimes go out ahead of you and sometimes fall in behind you, so you're moving together in sync deeper and deeper into it. The last thing you want is her sitting there quiet while you talk about all the stuff you like.

I see your point. Should probably change the way I approach sex talk.

I feel I've had the idea that I go out there, present my frames regarding sex and let them land. And basically as she is not refuting them she is simply accepting them and we can move forward with them established.

Making the whole thing more interactive is something I should work towards in general in fact, not only with sexual framing. Whenever I want to present my views about the world and society I generally get into long speeches, like presenting my thesis on how I view things, and expecting that after that I have put it out there, so everything we do is in this context I created.

Be more assertive and brusque, like she's on your time and not the other way around.

Will make use of this.

Look at it this way: imagine if you could go on a date with a girl, and you really wanted to sleep with her, but you couldn't talk about anything sexual and couldn't touch her at all. How would you make her feel like you're the kind of guy she wants to get fucked by?

This is a great question in fact. I feel that lately I have been focused on using sex talk and sexual physical energy to build the desire for sex, while the rest has been just the conversation to connect, make her feel I understand her and be comfortable to welcome the sexual experience I will present

Look at it this way: imagine if you could go on a date with a girl, and you really wanted to sleep with her, but you couldn't talk about anything sexual and couldn't touch her at all. How would you make her feel like you're the kind of guy she wants to get fucked by?

The level of your intensity, self-confidence, assertiveness, the way you qualify or tease her in different moments, the level of energy and the sense of dominance and agency you seem to have over your own life and reality, it all contributes to how she feels sexually about you.

Sex talk, touching, and other forms of escalation are mainly just a way to bring out what she feels about you into the realm of practical reality where it can be acted upon.

This first question is a great one in fact. I feel that lately I have been focused on using sex talk and sexual physical energy to build the desire for sex, while the rest has been just the conversation to connect, make her feel I understand her and be comfortable to welcome the sexual experience I will present.

It feels that when I am meeting them, I have in mind that yeah of course they are attracted to me, so I simply have to move through and get to the point where I present myself sexually, and have them realise that this experience would be safe and fun with me.

And that's also where the chill vibe comes as well, it feels a bit like I don't care, we could do this or that, but whatever, the important thing is I am sexual man and after we connect a bit, I will lead you to sex.

It seems to me that your presentation and vibe and the way you come across just isn't matching the way that you project your sexual frame and sexual intent, so these women are kind of listening to your words but not feeling it.

You don't have to come across terribly experienced or like some kind of veteran, but she does have to feel the core of you as something with real force and energy and potency, something that her feminine sexual instinct for submission responds to at a deep level.

But the thing is that exactly as you say, I am presenting all these things, but at the same time I am too relaxed in my general vibe.

I guess the reason I started going this route is exactly to let her feel I am chill and there are no expectations here, we are just an open environment and she is free to express herself sexually and have fun.

And that's probably good, but then she doesn't feel like having this fun with me, because presenting this environment is not enough to make her feel she wants to be a part of it.

I was probably afraid that if I present more intent and dominance through my whole vibe it could get overwhelming, with her going: "Omg, this guy is totally gonna lead me towards sex if I let him, I shouldn't!"

But I think I got it all backwards. Maybe if you build the safe exploratory sexual environment after you have shown this forceful masculine nature, she will like it, and will be interested in exploring it with you.

I should probably start being more dominant through the whole interaction, and in fact I may take it up as a challenge for a bit, to focus on the general energy I emit, without thinking when and how to present sex to her.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

I would've retorted and said she's a hypocrite and the one who's late in the first place. As a result, I would've addressed her "forgiveness" head-on by saying that you're forgiving her, not the other way around, and you were thinking of running off and finding something better to do.

Yeah guess I felt a bit guilty for approaching another girl and basically losing track of time. But that's a good approach

Note that you gave her a compliment at first, and she calls you out for being late... A girl of another type would probably not have done this. This girl will be likely testing how you react all night.

I surely felt that, and that's the thing I was probably not used to a girl reacting like that, since a lot don't, so I was confused on how forceful I should be on handling her.

Since this is her native language and not yours, after the waiter asks the 1st time, I would hold out the one moment sign with my hand to the waiter (with index and thumb out). Then, I would turn and say to her "hey, what is he saying? Bruh, you're supposed to be my translator tonight. So far I'm gonna give you an F for being a bad translator." After she translates, I would've told her to tell the waiter that we're splitting this half and half. You're wrestling the frame back. This also creates a "we" frame instead of her using you as a free dinner pass.

I like this. Didn't have the mental clarity to go that route, and mostly because I understood what the waiter said, so I felt a bit like I was caught at that moment trying not to pay. She later asked me if I speak the language in fact and I told her I took some classes some time ago but I am really bad at it.

Can't you just pick up the chair (assuming it's not bolted to the ground) and move it right next to her? If not, you can always play footsies with her. Your feet just need to be in proximity. This will help with the touch

Changing the chairs was impossible, and the alignment was even difficult for footsies, not impossible, but it would have been somehow tryhard.

Alright, so what you can do here is to excuse yourself and use the bathroom. Go take a piss and take 3 deep breaths with your eyes closed. Picture the conquest. Make mental notes of what's working well, what's not, and come up with a plan of attack. Do not wing this shit. You can be in there for 5 mins and go back to your table after.

I did think of that, but I eventually did it basically on the spot. And I decided I am gonna be way more assertive from now on and how I communicate.

This seems like it came out of nowhere. I would've either returned to the traveling topic from the beginning or about dancing from your initial meet. Reason is essentially you guys were vibing well during the beginning but all this buffet, paying, sitting down has "disturbed" the good vibe previously. There's an article on the main site about how each room / venue you enter brings its own moods with it and can even disturb a good connection from moments before, so this is something to be aware of.

Yeah not sure how good the connection was before but I see what you mean. Here I simply wanted to challenge her somehow right away since I had decided to treat it all more assertively.

Bruh did you really say this??

To me, it comes across like you're qualifying yourself to her as a boring guy and shooting yourself in the foot, like a DLV. This is a girl who needs a guy who she thinks is above her, someone who she can't quite handle. I would've said some outrageous crap at this point with a half-joking tone:

1. "Safe, I'm a drug dealer during my free time. I specialize in fentanyl. Have you tried it before? Let me get you some from my stash tonight"
2. "Actually, I don't use condoms with any of the girls that I meet. So to answer your question, you tell me"

It was playful, like I was clearly joking, with exaggerated expressions like yeah I am sooo boring. Should have described that better. I do like your answers here as well though, maybe I should start implementing some more outlandish things like that.

This is really good. The way that you had her open up and related it back to yourself significantly amplified similarity of attitudes and was awesome. I would've thrown in a gambit or two about connections and chemistry in the mix, but that's just me.

You mean how people need to have chemistry to connect better?

I would've put all of the sex talk stuff right after this. Keep the topic on sex and relationships for now and do not let it stray until you've gotten your viewpoints across and cemented the relevant sexual frames. Will have more comments on this later.

I agree, it was my plan in fact, but after I finished she asked me back the next thing and we changed topic. Maybe I should try to bring it back here, or transition quickly to the sex talk to not let this opportunity pass.

I was also eating, so I had some normal breaks from talking and for this reason I felt I could not fully control the flow of the conversation. Maybe I should have timed my bites better, another reason to not go for food during the date.

I'm not sure when you first verbalized this, but if I knew that she was in communications by the time that I was about to say this, I would've totally avoided making this statement. Think about it, it's like saying you're water and she's oil and you guys just don't mix well. It's creating dissimilarity.

You are right, and I did feel that. It was like the things you do and instantly realise you sabotaged yourself. In fact I rarely say this thing anymore, I was doing it in the past for some weird reason until I realised it creates dissimilarity with most people.

I feel what happened is that I wanted to somehow connect with her over working with myself as well. And this is one thing I have worked on but wasn't the best choice here.

This topic about dancing should've gone way, way earlier in the conversation. You could've actively brought it up. Remember how well you guys connected on this during the initial meet.

Yeah no idea why I didn't stay more there, kinda felt we talked about that already, so let's talk about something else? I don't know, it was a weird choice.

Three pointers here:

1. For the pull back home, you could've seeded this much earlier, like when you guys were talking about how your days were at the beginning. You could've casually mentioned that you live nearby and have a bottle of vintage wine or something that you've been waiting to try
2. It's very clear that she wasn't ready to go home with you yet but was open to moving to another location with you. This is exactly where the 3 bounce method comes in. I think Skills or someone has a guide. Essentially, you bounce her to another location and see if she's compliant enough to go home. If not, bounce again. Since this is late in the evening, good places are dessert stores, parks, and beaches. Just make sure they're open and not sketchy. They don't have to be fancy. I've bounced girls across 3 parks before but I was in the city for the 1st time so they probably cut me some slack... 3 bounce was the higher odds move here. I'm confident you still had a chance with her that night up to this point
3. Related to the point above, the sexual frame was lacking. That is why I mentioned earlier that all the sex talk stuff should've came earlier. If it did, who knows? Maybe she might've even be ready to go home with you at this point

For the seeding it is something I should start doing more for sure. And I should do it earlier I agree. Will keep this is in mind. I think I am looking for ways to seed during the interaction, but sometimes they don't come naturally. So I should be more focused on putting it out there.

Yes I've heard of the three bounce, it was pretty late so I was considering one different place and trying again after that. In fact I went for it, when I told her to take drinks from my place and go drink them somewhere else I meant it. Maybe she thought it was an excuse to take her home, but my idea was ok let's go have a drink at that park and then we see. I should have probably told her to just go and see that park. But she didn't really want to walk at all anyway, so that was another thing I could not overcome.

Yeah I know sex talk should have been earlier but since there came a chance to leave and pull I just thought let's go for it, if she says no, you try something else.

nterested in what other guys have to say, but my view is this is her excuse that she doesn't want to be within anywhere near your home at this point. She's not ready yet.

Note that she was still ready to go to another place with you just moments ago, so that's my rationale

Yeah maybe it was a bad move to say let's go take drinks from my place and go to the park. I thought it practically, like there are no drinks in the park, so we have to go take some and everything is closed now and bars don't do take away, so we can grab a bottle from mine and go.

Of course I did not analyse it like this to her, but I see how it created resistance. Should have just said to go to the cute park plain and simple.

I don't know why you would say this It's making things more difficult

I think I use it as self-deprecating humor, to show that I am fine with how my body looks like, because I am extremely skinny and don't mind. It was again said playfuly, not like I am sad about it, but more like yes that's who I am. But it's probably not a good frame anyway.

Similar to the above, BS excuse

But the question is how do you overcome this? I mean if she literally says she has to go in half an hour I guess I can say we will go only for ten minutes, but if she really wants to leave after half an hour is there a way to keep her from doing so?

So with these types of things like "what is your fantasy," you need to build it up. It came too pre-maturely here. I'm sure there are some gambits on the main site that you could use to elicit it, like the Narratives gambit

Yeah I felt that, guess I just said the first thing that came to my mind at that point to show that I don't mind her reaction regarding the subject and that it is normal. But surely I need better transitions.

I think you're complimenting her / giving her too much free validation. What has she said that she liked about you?

Pretty much nothing, but I wasn't sure what else to do to build some sexual energy at that point. I had in mind that I should show her I like her a bit so that she sees I am interested and doesn't autoreject after the date, thinking I simply had a deep conversation with her.

In general balancing how much interest I show is something I struggle with because it feels like no matter whether I show less or more the results do not change.

I don't know about you, but that cigarette smell coming from her mouth is a huge turn off...

She was pretty far to smell but I won't disagree. Would still kiss if she is hot though haha

Seems like you're rewarding her. I personally wouldn't have gone for it

Oh yes exactly what I also thought.

But that's the problem, when I do the thing it feels like it's not a bad choice. Maybe I thought ok I'm gonna tease that I go for a kiss, then give one on the cheek and have her wanting more for next time.

But then moments later I am there thinking, why I am rewarding her bad behaviour with so much affection?

It's like I am doing things I know are bad decisions and instantly regret them. I am not sure how to take control of that. Maybe it just comes by gaining more experience.

 

[Will_V]

I guess the reason I started going this route is exactly to let her feel I am chill and there are no expectations here, we are just an open environment and she is free to express herself sexually and have fun.

And that's probably good, but then she doesn't feel like having this fun with me, because presenting this environment is not enough to make her feel she wants to be a part of it.

Exactly.

But I think I got it all backwards. Maybe if you build the safe exploratory sexual environment after you have shown this forceful masculine nature, she will like it, and will be interested in exploring it with you.

I should probably start being more dominant through the whole interaction, and in fact I may take it up as a challenge for a bit, to focus on the general energy I emit, without thinking when and how to present sex to her.

100%.

Read these articles:

She Must Never Become Your Mission

I happened upon an article entitled “An Open Letter To My Future Wife: How I Plan To Make You Happy Every Day Of Your Life” earlier today, written without a doubt very sincerely to the author’s imagined future wife – here’s a short excerpt: “I promise to do my best to make you beam daily, so...

www.girlschase.com

How to Be an Asshole – and Become Adored by Women

If you've paid much attention to the men that women gravitate towards, they're pretty much all assholes. Yeah, sure... deep down, they may actually be good guys. "An asshole with a heart of gold", for instance. But, they're still assholes. If you yourself are not an asshole though, adopting some...

www.girlschase.com

The way I see it, a guy can be very effective with women if women are his mission, but only if no particular woman is his mission. Still, you have to have a very specific mindset and outlook for that, which personally I don't have. If I spend too long around women, I get lazy and listless.

What works for me is to do things in my life unrelated to women, things related to self-development, exploration, competition, and expansion, and then bring the by-product of sexual energy to women. And that works very well for me.

For example, I like to sail. And what I do is I'll go out for a few days or weeks, sail around the islands, eat baked beans out of a tin, get a deep tan, go through some mishaps, sail back, and then I'll come back and hit the town. And women take one look at me and they can see I'm living life on my own terms, and I'm very satisfied with myself. And I'm also horny and ready to make up for lost time.

But if I just focus on women, at least for me it doesn't work. I don't like myself as much, I'm not as happy, my energy is low, and women don't respond to me as well.

Point is, you have to be satisfied with yourself and your life outside of women, and then invite them into the energy portion of that life. The energy created from the way you feel about the rest of your life is the catalyst to the sexual chemical reaction. Without the catalyst the substances are inert.

 

[Marty]

Asking what she's keen for is fine and good, but it's good to balance out with assertions of your own, so it's clear you're not chaperoning her.

You: "Feeling hungry?"
Her: "Yeah I could do with some food and maybe a drink".
You: "Yeah I'm pretty famished myself, I know a good place."

Now you're going to have a meal and taking her along, vs. going there because she wants to. Tone and energy matters.

This is very interesting, Will. When I’m in such situations my tone is usually something like “Leave it with me, I’ll make sure you get fed”, i.e., the competent—and caring—man. Are you saying that is the wrong vibe? The last line of dialog in your comment above made an impression on me: I can imagine it being said that way, but had never thought to do it myself.

 

[Will_V]

This is very interesting, Will. When I’m in such situations my tone is usually something like “Leave it with me, I’ll make sure you get fed”, i.e., the competent—and caring—man. Are you saying that is the wrong vibe?

In a certain way, yes it is wrong. Because it assumes that your competence and your care for her are valuable to her - in that moment where you barely know eachother - and doesn't offer any clear path for her to earn it from you. Maybe she already has ten chaperones and you are performing the worst of them all.

When you offer a girl anything of value - whether it is your attention, your time, your competence at anything, your money, your food, even your dick - before she has done anything to earn it, it's best to use a frame that combines these messages:

- What I'm offering here is very little
- I'm offering it for my own self-satisfaction
- It'll last only as long as my pleasure in giving it lasts
- If you want more or you want it consistently, prove yourself to me and earn it

It's necessary to do this because we as men have to start with an offer, and that immediately puts us in a chasing frame. Because a chase frame drastically devalues your currency (whatever it is you're offering) you have two choices, just like when an actual currency devalues:

1. Pump out tons of notes and coins as fast as you can and hope that it all adds up to enough value, and gives birth to a more consistent and reliable form of value transaction, before its value implodes. This is what nice guys do (and incidentally, also what the federal reserve does ..)

2. Make the currency scarce.

2) is better for fairly obvious reasons - it costs us a lot less. But since we have to make an offer, we can't make it scarce by not offering it. So we have to make it scarce by framing our offer as something much smaller than it is.

How small you make it look depends on her attitude. If she's entitled and overconfident like this woman, you have to make it look very small, like she's just tagging along to keep you company while you eat and enjoy yourself. If she's shy and innocent and easily impressed, you can have more of a generous and caring frame.

However even more important than framing your initial offer as small, is making her feel like she has to earn your attention, your approval and validation, and your dick, in general. This is why you have to be assertive when you don't like something, get her compliance in many different ways (I like what @Gorili wrote about her being your translator), and put pressure on her with your questions about her life and personality. And then once she's jumped through the hoops - follows your lead, translates for you and helps you with things, is not annoying and combative when you tell her what you don't like, and proves that she's an interesting and fun person who is generally aligned with you in the traits that are of most value to you - you can validate her on those specific things that you like (rather than just throwing attention and validation at her for free).

Doing things this way means that she feels validated way more deeply than just being a hot girl, and all the rewards you give her will be greatly valued by her since they were earned, and positions you in her mind as a source of value that is not easily gotten and therefore all the more valuable.

 

[Marty]

When you offer a girl anything of value - whether it is your attention, your time, your competence at anything, your money, your food, even your dick - before she has done anything to earn it, it's best to use a frame that combines these messages:

- What I'm offering here is very little
- I'm offering it for my own self-satisfaction
- It'll last only as long as my pleasure in giving it lasts
- If you want more or you want it consistently, prove yourself to me and earn it

It's necessary to do this because we as men have to start with an offer, and that immediately puts us in a chasing frame.

Thank you, Will, I have bookmarked this post and will come back to it to remind myself as I gain experience in the field.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

How to Be an Asshole – and Become Adored by Women

If you've paid much attention to the men that women gravitate towards, they're pretty much all assholes. Yeah, sure... deep down, they may actually be good guys. "An asshole with a heart of gold", for instance. But, they're still assholes. If you yourself are not an asshole though, adopting some...

www.girlschase.com

The way I see it, a guy can be very effective with women if women are his mission, but only if no particular woman is his mission. Still, you have to have a very specific mindset and outlook for that, which personally I don't have. If I spend too long around women, I get lazy and listless.

Yeah that's the interesting thing, I don't think I have any particular woman as my mission. I mean generally I entered into seduction to fix the issue of women in my life, with my idea being if you manage to be sleeping with many hot women, you will be able to find one hot woman that you could get more serious with if you want to.

The issue is that during each specific seduction in a way the woman is my mission, in the sense that I am going there with the goal to seduce her and sleep with her. So I am focused on getting a result from the interaction not so much because I feel I won't find another like her, but because I feel even if I find 10 more like her I have to know how to be able to seduce them, which will be the case only if I have managed it with at least one already.

I will also check the articles again, thanks for sending. The thing is even for the asshole one, not only I know it intellectually but I have tried to be more of an asshole and it felt like I was constantly alienating people. I find very difficult finding the right balance of respecting and appreciating people, while not being submissive or supplicating to them.

I was looking at Chase's article about Nice people needing hard rules, so I feel there is something there. That as long as you have certain rules you don't allow anyone to break, you don't need to really try to break the rules of others. Because that's how what I was doing felt.

But if I just focus on women, at least for me it doesn't work. I don't like myself as much, I'm not as happy, my energy is low, and women don't respond to me as well.

Point is, you have to be satisfied with yourself and your life outside of women, and then invite them into the energy portion of that life. The energy created from the way you feel about the rest of your life is the catalyst to the sexual chemical reaction. Without the catalyst the substances are inert.

I see your point, and I am not even sure myself how it works for me. RIght now I feel so focused on women simply because I realised that for me having a great career, making money, having hobbies, being in social circles they all can be fun, but any time I was in some of these situations in my life I had certain moments of pride or content, and then it would all crash down with me realising that I still don't get the women I want.

Even being around the beautiful women was painful. That's why I am also cold approaching, because I don't see the point in meeting women through social circles and struggling to get their attention maybe for something to happen. It feels so much waste of time to me and ironically I think I have attracted women in social circles, exactly because I was there for the activities only.

So I agree with the point of being satisfied, and I should work towards having some other things I am doing, and some bigger overarching goal. I have some ideas in fact, had made some general plans for about the next 10 years, but they all needed some job or source of income to at least sustain me day to day, so I have to find that first.

Even in these plans though I had a period where seduction would be the main focus.

However even more important than framing your initial offer as small, is making her feel like she has to earn your attention, your approval and validation, and your dick, in general. This is why you have to be assertive when you don't like something, get her compliance in many different ways (I like what @Gorili wrote about her being your translator), and put pressure on her with your questions about her life and personality. And then once she's jumped through the hoops - follows your lead, translates for you and helps you with things, is not annoying and combative when you tell her what you don't like, and proves that she's an interesting and fun person who is generally aligned with you in the traits that are of most value to you - you can validate her on those specific things that you like (rather than just throwing attention and validation at her for free).

I fully agree with what you presented here, the only thing I was thinking is how much do you eventually keep going if her frame doesn't break? Let's say she is narcissistic, she believes that she is the hottest girl ever, all men love her and no matter what you say or do she expects a certain treatment by the guy she dates.

I've had girls for example tell me that they make their own good money, but their exes never allowed them to pay anything, because they are princesses. And I don't know, maybe with great frame control and by being very seductive you can break through that and even have them paying for you in the end, but my question is how much do you try, and when does it make sense to say: I've been with this girl all evening and she is still pushing back and never really qualifies, I am out.

 

[Will_V]

I've had girls for example tell me that they make their own good money, but their exes never allowed them to pay anything, because they are princesses. And I don't know, maybe with great frame control and by being very seductive you can break through that and even have them paying for you in the end, but my question is how much do you try, and when does it make sense to say: I've been with this girl all evening and she is still pushing back and never really qualifies, I am out.

Don't qualify her on things like money or quality of life then, qualify her on e.g. being adventurous, spontaneous, having an interesting life, following her passions, having discipline and reaching goals etc. She has to feel that your domain is not the one she is prepared for and so she has to invest in qualifying for it. And your frame control is what establishes which domain is valuable.

E.g. a condensed conversation might look something like:

Her: "I make my own money, but my boyfriend's always paid for everything because he really values me." <looks at you to see how you react>

Note: you can see here two specific frames you want to reject: a) the financial one and b) the boyfriend one. Which actually makes it easier to reject them both at the same time.

You: "Yeah I've met a bunch of princesses in my life, they usually get everything paid for by someone else while I give something much more satisfying. Works out well that way". <Here you establish your domain, which is things other than money, and there's a small implication that commitment is outside of it as well>.

She'll jump on it and start saying you're banging girls with boyfriends. But you can just ease off and say well maybe their daddy is paying for them while I'm spending quality time with her. Or whatever. It doesn't even need to make sense, because she's already got the drift.

And then once she's calmed down a bit you start qualifying her on whether she's the sort of girl who knows how to spend quality time - is she fun, interesting, adventurous, etc etc.

You need to not be afraid to handle these girls frames and impose your own, if you just sit there and try to negotiate your way through by being extra seductive it will not work.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

Don't qualify her on things like money or quality of life then, qualify her on e.g. being adventurous, spontaneous, having an interesting life, following her passions, having discipline and reaching goals etc. She has to feel that your domain is not the one she is prepared for and so she has to invest in qualifying for it. And your frame control is what establishes which domain is valuable.

This is great. I think I I knew it intuitively, but assumed that she would just not engage with the domains I present.

I remember a girl like that, very hot and extremely full of herself, I was asking if she is educated she was answering very. I was asking if she reads books she was answering many, all the time. She was constantly giving these very short answers that had more the vibe of, of course silly I am both hot and amazing at everything else.

At the same time of course she would talk about superficial stuff regarding her travels, her promotional videos on insta, her preferences for guys. She was only going minimal when I was trying to ask her about other things that were not an obvious part of her high value frame.

This was more than a year ago though, so I think now I would have started grilling her more and deeper. Maybe going like: What did you study? Psychology, Why? I loved it, Why you loved it? etc until she would start talking more. Not gonna lie though, this kind of closeness to the connection would tire me up after a while.

But this was fairly weird behaviour for a girl that agreed for an instant date, I really think she just wanted a free drink in the end and didn't care about connecting at all.

You: "Yeah I've met a bunch of princesses in my life, they usually get everything paid for by someone else while I give something much more satisfying. Works out well that way". <Here you establish your domain, which is things other than money, and there's a small implication that commitment is outside of it as well>.

I love this. Because this is not part of my seduction life yet, and it would be a lie, I feel I would have an issue in my mind of being called out. Like her saying: "Yeah, sure you do that".

But I suppose if you are really working on yourself and believe in your value proposition, you will get there, so it's better to internalise the frame from the beginning and hold it firm. You won't start getting such girls in this way if you don't believe that it is a normal part of your life.

You need to not be afraid to handle these girls frames and impose your own, if you just sit there and try to negotiate your way through by being extra seductive it will not work.

And this is epiphany level for me. I really have been doing that a lot. Rolling with their frames and simply trying to be seductive in them. I should really start imposing mine firmly, especially the more confident and in control they seem to be.

 

[Will_V]

I remember a girl like that, very hot and extremely full of herself, I was asking if she is educated she was answering very. I was asking if she reads books she was answering many, all the time. She was constantly giving these very short answers that had more the vibe of, of course silly I am both hot and amazing at everything else.

This was more than a year ago though, so I think now I would have started grilling her more and deeper. Maybe going like: What did you study? Psychology, Why? I loved it, Why you loved it? etc until she would start talking more. Not gonna lie though, this kind of closeness to the connection would tire me up after a while.

When a girl's acting like this it's best imo to tease rather than ask too many questions. Because if you go in asking a lot of questions she can just give shorter and shorter answers and start acting like 'why do I have to prove anything?' putting you in the follower frame.

But if you tease, you're basically making a statement that she then has to turn around and try to deal with, which puts her in the follower frame.

Or combine a question/command with a tease. Like:

Her: "I read books all the time".
You, smiling: "Really? I bet you do .. tell me about one interesting book you've read. And not some affirmation or self help book, doesn't count."

If she does give a decent example you can qualify her a little bit, like: "That's not too bad, that's like entry-level <whatever the topic is>, but it's a start".

Gotta have fun with these girls! They usually have nobody talking down to them like that so as long as your vibe is calm and warm they'll enjoy it.