FR Starting Out Part I (1/X)

[AFCnoob]

Summary: Very first set approach after starting to read the GC blog

[Gill] American [Rating: objective 7/subjective 7][Age: @25](ongoing)

Open: Accidental
I work in a once in a while, and I noticed a 2-set sitting there after I got off work, and approached with my friend. I immediately spotted [Gill]'s friend, we'll call her NoScrubs, as the AFoG (alpha female of group, the girl "calling the shots" in a group), and I said a few words to her first. NoScrubs was not just cold, but was a bit condescending, and patronizing, she seemed as though she was trying to shut me down. I had no idea how to handle a semi-hostile AFoG, so I ignored her and turned my attention to [Gill] pretty much immediately, and kept the conversation light.

I don't know why, but my friend and I we didn't really try to advance with them, but it turned out [Gill] was a body painter, and they ended up inviting us to a body painting party at the same venue a couple days later. I noted their mainly disinterested response, but said I might show up anyway. I considered the interaction closed.

Move: N/A
Very neutral response. I figured the negative reaction from the NoScrubs, and my poor handling of it had sunk me with [Gill].

Escalation: N/A

Close: N/A

[Interaction Rating]: 4
This was the first time I sort of knew what I was doing, or at least had a plan. I considered it an accomplishment that I had approached in the first place, and not let the AFoG totally shut me down. I went home and scoured the blog for information about handling hostile AFoGs, but there was nothing really good. Oh well. I decided to redouble my efforts in the future.

 

[AFCnoob]

FR: Starting Out Part I (2/X)

Summary: A lesson in preselection

[Gill] American [Rating: objective 7/subjective 7][Age: @25](ongoing)

Open: pre-existing
I ended up turning up to the body painting party with the second girl I had actively engaged after starting to read the GC blog. It had been a very successful transition (for my first intentional one), and we showed up pretty high energy. I found the girls upstairs and was very surprised at how NoScrubs and [Gill]'s attitudes were completely different toward me. I hadn't read about preselection, but I guess that's what was happening.

I wanted to get my chest and back painted, and [Gill] was only too happy to oblige. She complimented me on my build a couple of times in the process. I noted her IOI's, but was already with a girl, so I played it off. I figured I'd never see her again anyway.

Move: N/A

Escalation: N/A

Close: N/A

[Interaction Rating]: 2
It turns out preselection works wonders.

 

[AFCnoob]

FR+: Starting Out Part I (3/X)

Summary: I run into [Gill] again, kind of at the wrong time, but it's...the right time?

[Gill] American [Rating: objective 7/subjective 7][Age: @25](ongoing)

note*:this interaction took place just days ago, now that I've been learning here at GC and working on my game for a couple of months.

Open: pre-existing
I was at the bar where I sometimes work at again. Now: I had scheduled a date with a girl I am currently pursuing for two days later, so I didn't really want to get into anything that night. But then a girl I have recently closed with texted me--she was out at a club and very eager to see me. I had already told her I would see her, and was planning to leave immediately after getting off work.

But then one of my co-workers mentioned that two cute blondes had come in. I planned to just ignore them, but couldn't resist the chance to get in a little more "practice". I looked down the bar and sure enough, there was the back of some blonde girl's head, and my friend/wingman (we'll start calling him Red-1) had already left to talk to them.

I approached, and imagine my surprise when it turned out to be...[Gill] and NoScrubs from weeks earlier. NoScrubs was abrasive as usual, but I remembered [Gill]'s name, and caught a very warm look from her, so I immediately ignored NoScrubs and moved into circle with [Gill].

Escalation: almost immediate (regret it tho, since it was in a public venue)
Gill was throwing me IOI's left and right, and we were having a lot of fun. I immediately set a sexual frame, and started cold reading her with the qualities I wanted her to display. She immediately accepted the frames and began qualifying herself with the characteristics I set for her. It was kind of odd, but we started talking at arms length, then we were at elbow length, then our shoulders were pretty much touching, in the space of about 10 minutes. I'm still stuck in a kissing at bars rut, and I just couldn't resist [Gill]'s IOI's, so I fell back on my tired routine:

Me: "Wow, you can wink with both eyes? But you're doing the big 'come hither' movie wink, that's too overt for me."

Her: "I like to be overt, I don't want to leave any confusion whatsoever."[joking warm suggestive look]

Me: "Oh really?, I tend to be more subvert, I like to keep it on the DL, like for example, you see that bar tender right there?"

...and you know the rest. [Gill] got very excited, and was actually maneuvering my knee between her legs as we kissed]. I told her I had to change, but I'd be right back and that she shouldn't go anywhere.

Move: natural
I had received another message from the other girl, (later I found she was going home, and had texted me the address of her apartment, hoping I would come over), but I didn't even look at my phone, and [Gill] asked me where we were going next. I had to cancel my previous plan to go to venue X, because as far as I knew, the other girl was still there. Luckily my coworkers were planning to go somewhere else. We bundled into the cab and headed to the next venue.

Red-1 was drunk (as usual), but was very voluble and was making hilarious jokes in the car. I was glad for this, because it kept the mood light during the transition. We got to the next venue, and NoScrubs decided to go home, [Gill] gave her the keys. Seeing this, Red-1 also decided to peel off, but then [Gill] said she should probably go home as well.

I kept my cool and just nodded in the direction of the venue. The old me would have let her, or panicked and got needy, but I just nodded in the direction of the venue and said: "Let's just go inside for a bit."

"OK, I guess I can have one drink." [Gill] replied. I had been told a friend would get us free drinks at the venue, but it turned out this was no longer the case. I had also told [Gill] this, so I felt like an idiot asking her to pay after all, so I ended up paying for the drinks.

We sat down and started talking about this and that, it turns out that [Gill] teaches kindergarten here in SH (as did the three most recent girls I've interacted with, including the one I had recently closed with). We talked some more, but I was pretty drunk, and wasn't really listening 100%. At one point I squeezed [Gill]'s knee just above the kneecap, getting her to jump. She complained that I wasn't even listening to her.

Close: fail
We talked for a bit more, I drew her in for another session of kissing,and suggested we go back to my place. [Gill] made some excuses, Thanksgiving was the next day, she had to make pies, etc. I persisted nonetheless, listing all the great reasons she should still come with me.

Then [Gill]'s real reasons started surfacing: "What, on the first date?" she said with a smile. This didn't actually fit, as [Gill] had told me earlier that she would be leaving in a couple of weeks, so she couldn't be trying to slow things down. This probably meant the real reason was I hadn't made her want me enough, or had already satiated her too much with all that damn kissing.

I persisted nonetheless. "Hehe, you seem like you're used to getting girls to do what you want." she said, smiling. This threw up a red flag for me, this, plus the comment about me not listening to her earlier made me feel like she felt I was coming on too strong, and trying to play her.

We left the venue, and I saw her to her gate (as chance would have it, she lived almost directly across the street from the venue). [Gill] invited me to Thanksgiving dinner the next day, but I refused (I had a class anyway), in my old days, I would have been there with bells on, shifting my schedule and running over right after my lesson, but I knew better than to take her up on an offer for such a BF/friendzone event. I told her I really wanted to go, but that I would be busy.

(I was rewarded with a warm text the next day (today), I didn't push for a meet up, because today is also the day I'm supposed to go out with the other...other girl (ugh).)

I had to think fast as I stumbled home, and texted the other girl, who was asleep and non responsive. Luckily, it was easy to recover things with her the next day, but I'm still worried because I just don't have any time to meet up with her, and I don't really want to, because I'm still hoping things will pan out with this "main" girl I'm pursuing currently.

I walked home and stumbled around my fountain, then ran into this drunk Chinese guy and his girl. He seemed pissed off at first, but then bought us some beers. I pounded a couple more beers with him and went home and fell into a drunken sleep, it was 5 in the morning. Four hours later I woke with a start and seriously thought about calling in late to work, then I grabbed myself and threw myself out of bed (it's a bit hard to do) and went to work, because I'm really starting to get out of control.

[Interaction Rating]: 7
The interaction was fairly textbook, so I was pleased with it. No close, but really, I knew I was setting myself up for a failed close, because I've already learned how detrimental kissing in public can be (I've been doing it quite a lot). I'm a bit out of control here. I'm still stuck in this phase now where I'm doing things not necessarily according to plan, but just because I can. I feel like I'm screwing up my priorities and leaning over toward the "dark side". The smarter man might have just built strong rapport with [Gill] and set up a meeting for a later date, without deflating her desire with kissing...in PUBLIC, and went on the sure thing date with the girl he had already closed with.

The even smarter man might just not be trying to run game on three girls at the same time (four if you count the other girl who texted me today trying to get together tomorrow). The thing is, I'm spreading myself way too thin, and I don't have the time, resources, or know-how to handle it. I don't even really want to, I just didn't know I could, and I'm finding it very hard to stop myself (see my journal entry: "I have a problem").

I'm chasing petty rewards in a kind of sloppy way, but I'm sure I'll get out of this phase, hopefully sooner than later.

 

[Chase]

Re: FR+: Starting Out Part I (3/X)

Hey AFCnoob,

I'm starting to think you chose your handle to poke fun. You strike me as far more confident and getting a lot deeper into your interactions with women than I'd expect an AFC or a newbie to be

A few thoughts:

Me: "Wow, you can wink with both eyes? But you're doing the big 'come hither' movie wink, that's too overt for me."

Her: "I like to be overt, I don't want to leave any confusion whatsoever."[joking warm suggestive look]

Me: "Oh really?, I tend to be more subvert, I like to keep it on the DL, like for example, you see that bar tender right there?"

Solid framing here - you're positioning her as the pursuer.

Kissing her flips it on its head though - it puts you back in the role of pursuer, and gives her the control again, which is why you struggled to pull her later despite her interest.

Red-1 was drunk (as usual), but was very voluble and was making hilarious jokes in the car. I was glad for this, because it kept the mood light during the transition. We got to the next venue, and NoScrubs decided to go home, [Gill] gave her the keys. Seeing this, Red-1 also decided to peel off, but then [Gill] said she should probably go home as well.

I kept my cool and just nodded in the direction of the venue. The old me would have let her, or panicked and got needy, but I just nodded in the direction of the venue and said: "Let's just go inside for a bit."

"OK, I guess I can have one drink." [Gill] replied.

Great work hanging in there and locking up the venue change. You're almost at smooth sailing now - but you've got to get her out of there fast.

And then there's that kiss...

We talked some more, but I was pretty drunk, and wasn't really listening 100%.

A little alcohol / a slight buzz will up your game most of the time... but a bit too much and it nosedives. I spent a few years drinking too much when I was going out, and while you do get some drunken pickups where you wake up the next day and look at the girl in your bed and go, "Whoa! How'd I get THAT girl? Obviously it was a good night!" most of the time you wake up the next day and go, "Oh man... how'd I blow it last night? That girl was LOVING me! Damn alcohol!"

At one point I squeezed [Gill]'s knee just above the kneecap, getting her to jump. She complained that I wasn't even listening to her.

She's a lot more sober than you are here, and her attraction's fading. When a girl wants to go to bed with you, she doesn't especially care if you're listening or not, she just cares if you're leading.

My guess is you spent too much time in Venue #2 here. You could probably have even turned around after you got there and found out you couldn't get free drinks and have said, "You know what? Change of plans, this place isn't happening tonight. Let's go," then take her back to your place and serve her drinks (and more) there...

We talked for a bit more, I drew her in for another session of kissing,and suggested we go back to my place. [Gill] made some excuses, Thanksgiving was the next day, she had to make pies, etc. I persisted nonetheless, listing all the great reasons she should still come with me.

Rather than list reasons, instead try defusing hers. You listing reasons feels to her like she's being sold or cajoled; you deconstructing her reasons just makes her feel like she's being silly and should go with you.

e.g., trying to convince:

• Guy: AFCnoob, you should buy this computer, it's a great machine.
  
  You: I wish I could, but it's too expensive for me.
  
  Guy: It's got TONS of features. Big screen, backlighting...
  
  You: I can't man, I'm out of space in my car's trunk, I couldn't even bring it home with me.
  
  Guy: Look, this is just about the BEST computer you're going to get. It's got...

Contrast that with breaking down objections:

• Guy: AFCnoob, you should buy this computer, it's a great machine.
  
  You: I wish I could, but it's too expensive for me.
  
  Guy: Not to worry, we've got a payment plan that'll only cost you $40 a month - about the cost of a week's worth of meals at McDonald's.
  
  You: I can't man, I'm out of space in my car's trunk, I couldn't even bring it home with me.
  
  Guy: No problem - we'll bring it out to your house FOR you. No extra charge. Shall I ring you up?

Second guy feels a lot more likely to get your money, doesn't he?

Same deal with persuading women in transition situations where they're being a bit resistant.

Then [Gill]'s real reasons started surfacing: "What, on the first date?" she said with a smile. This didn't actually fit, as [Gill] had told me earlier that she would be leaving in a couple of weeks, so she couldn't be trying to slow things down. This probably meant the real reason was I hadn't made her want me enough, or had already satiated her too much with all that damn kissing.

Once the kissing starts, you need to escalate FAST. If you DON'T, it pins you as a non-sexual guy... thus, boyfriend material.

e.g., a sexual guy gets turned on by her like a fucking ANIMAL the moment his mouth is on hers, and he's going to line it up so that he's inside her as soon as possible once that first kiss happens. It's the first step on the road to mating. If a guy kisses her and DOESN'T start moving briskly toward sex, she assumes that kissing is some dating ritual of his and not a mating ritual, and pegs him as less a sexual animal and more a logical, rational man who's probably well-suited in a relationship (but not so good for quick, passionate sex).

Also, on the "What, on the first date?" remark: another prime opportunity to break down her objections and chase frame her at the same time.

• Her: What, on the first date?
  
  You: Whoa... what do you think is going to happen here? I'm just talking about a nightcap. Let's go, Miss Randy.
  
  Her: [laughs] I can't.
  
  You: Sure you can. I'll drop you off back home in 30 minutes, your boss will never know tomorrow. Let's head out.

I persisted nonetheless. "Hehe, you seem like you're used to getting girls to do what you want." she said, smiling. This threw up a red flag for me, this, plus the comment about me not listening to her earlier made me feel like she felt I was coming on too strong, and trying to play her.

She's feeling more in control at this point. Her objections aren't being defused; instead, you're just persisting by trying to convince her. There's no "threat" of her being swayed and coming along with you, so she can tease you / give you a "Oh, cute! You must be good with the girls," line (those are always annoying... when you hear them, it's almost always a sign you oversold and under-addressed her objections).

Four hours later I woke with a start and seriously thought about calling in late to work, then I grabbed myself and threw myself out of bed (it's a bit hard to do) and went to work, because I'm really starting to get out of control.

Yeah man, this was me, getting home drunk at 3 AM and having to be at work 4 1/2 hours later. It's a sign to start cutting back. Seriously, it's better... you do better with chicks, spend less money, AND you aren't feeling like a dump truck rolled over on you all day the next day.

I'm chasing petty rewards in a kind of sloppy way, but I'm sure I'll get out of this phase, hopefully sooner than later.

You're doing well. You're just making a few mistakes in which opportunities you go for, and how you deal with certain situations. Clean those up and you'll be picking up girls like nobody's business.

Chase

 

[nino]

Wow, you got yourself quite on an adventure, didn't you

I think if you hadn't drunk quite that much you would have easily stuck to your plan, because you did pretty well in the beginning! What I found to be most astonishing was the way you handled her not wanting to go to the second venue at first. Early me would have brought her home (and from experience I know this won't give you anything in return, wish I had known about the law of least effort back then), current me probably would have played it cool and acted as if I didn't care. Still better than before, but you seem to know how to address objections pretty well!

Also, I love the fact how you stick to your principles - I would have probably accepted the invitation for Thanks Giving.

Experienced the same with having multiple girls on the "same line", at one point you just don't have the time for each and everybody. However, I find this to be an advantage - as you can choose whom you continue to text and meet.

Kissing in public is quite dangerous, I found that out myself. But the public, for example in a club, I found is also a great way to tease her, and put some of Chase's kissing techniques to practice. That's why I don't get too drunk myself anymore, as I then can control my desire to kiss her more and more, wilder and wilder. And I found that to work wonders, works with every girl. You feel the (sexual) tension build up rapidly and you make her feel comfortable, showing her that you help her keep her face and reputation in public.

Looking forward to hearing more about Gill, tho! Or the other 3 girls..

 

[AFCnoob]

@ Chase: Again, thank you very much for the careful analysis and pointed insights. I find them extremely valuable. I actually feel like I've found a mentor online! A few mentors actually.

This interaction was my second to last recent one, I posted it because it connected to an interaction that occurred when I'd just started learning here on GC (part 1) a couple months ago. In retrospect, it is very interesting to see the huge change.

I totally agree that I really do have to rope myself in with the kissing, I know I'm shooting myself in the foot. I just hope it doesn't take another [Fiona] to drive home this point.

I'm still relying on alcohol to get into/remain in state, and to give me a bit of confidence (I may seem confident, but I'm always neurotic and nervous as hell inside when I'm in these interactions). I know this is very detrimental for several reasons, and a bit of a noob tactic, because it shouldn't be necessary at all. Moreover, it's very much a double edged sword. I'm definitely going to try to greatly reduce my alcohol intake, or cut it out entirely. Having said that, I actually tried really hard to get myself drunk on my last interaction (with no success), for reasons that I will detail there.

I agree totally about the second venue mistake, in the back of my mind, I suspected she'd think it was way too fast, but I guess: a) If she wanted to go home with me at all, it really wouldn't matter if we went to the second place at all b) the truth is, she didn't want to be there in the first place and neither did I!

I think it is some very powerful advice you have given--defusing her reasons instead of listing my own. Your example really put it into perspective I've been doing too much of the latter, and very little or none of the former. I will definitely remember this for the future. Again, on my latest interaction, quite by accident, I took the tack of defusing the girl's objections after becoming exasperated listing more and more reasons she should comply with me, and it worked brilliantly.

I liked your breakdown of the "first date" sass I got, and this ties back to defusing objections and framing, I will definitely make a note of it. I gave this interaction a rating of 7 because I also think that I did fairly well, even if it was not a success, and that it provided a lot of material for review and correction. Thanks again, Chase.

@ nino: Things are getting more and more crazy, ugh. Chase has given me some sound advice about how to deal with objections even better, hopefully I'll be able to handle the bigger ones later, like transition to a seduction venue and LMR (last minute resistance to intimacy).

Also, heck no--there was no way I would let her further BF/friendzone me (it's bad enough we didn't close on the first night at this point). The thing is: Old me would have been jumping at the chance to spend any time at all with her, but I stuck to my guns not because I don't want to spend time with her, but because refusing this kind of invite is simply the best way to ensure that I do end up spending more time with her, on my terms. It's kinda weird like that.

Having many things going on is an advantage, in the sense that I'm much more relaxed about things like texting girls back, and interactions in general, because I know I've got options. The only problem is: I still have technical game problems, and I'm definitely not the kind of person who can juggle stuff like this. Worst of all, I'm going about it sloppily, and at least one more girl may end up getting hurt, which is a serious problem, as it violates those same principles (Don't Hurt a Girl: The Importance of Expectations).

I'm still going through my backlog of FR's, but there will be many more to come, and they only get more intense, so...just keep reading! Thanks a lot for the feedback!