Sticking point: dropping the ball after a good date

[alexlaguma]

Gents,

I've seen a bit of a pattern this year which I'm trying to address. Welcome your thoughts on how to address this. (replies from guys with a minimum 50+ bodies please).

What I've seen happen a few times is this -

1. Cold approach followed by number (comfortable with my ratios on this)
2. Texting leading to a date (i've pretty much nailed this now).
3. Good first (and sometimes second) date which has touching / kissing but doesn't result in sex (sometimes due to logistics). Girl feels into me and I feel into her.
4. Breakdown in vibe in follow up communication via text. What seemed like a certainty for a future date (eg; touching, kissing, "thank you for a great night" text) ends up going nowhere.

I'd say this has happened 3 or 4 times times this year (enough to indicate a pattern). And actually this used to happen to me with online dating before I quit that for day game.

If I had to apply some amateur psyco-analysis to myself it would be that as my investment in the girl increases (as I realise she is high value) and my investment in the outcome increases (as it feels like I'm closer to sex with a 8/9/) then that impacts my communication (and sub-communication) and makes me fuck it up and overthink things. This analysis may or not be true, but regardless of the reason what I need is to work out how to overcome this and what to do differently.

So basically I'm dropping the ball when it comes to following through with things that seem to be moving in a good direction. So I guess I'm asking -
(1) has anyone else come up against a similar sticking point
(2) what have you done about it? Interested in both the mental frame to take, but also specifically approaches to texting, communicating post-date.

PS) I know a very good mitigation to all of this is to fuck on the first date lol, but sometimes that just isn't possible. So humour me.

 

[HoofHearted]

I think pretty much everyone runs up against this.

You have got to get it to physical intimacy.

It also depends on your definition of 'date.' One time my 'date' was walking around a night market with her for 30mins, and then back to her house for sex. That was a pretty good date, look how simple it was. But it depends on the girl.

Kissing is a special thing that can be done whenever you think it's needed but it sort of changes things. Kissing her early is different than kissing her later. If you're learning, and not used to girls, probably just kissing her is fine while you learn. But as we learn we gotta change it up. I wouldn't just kiss a girl at the end of a date because that's how movies told me it should be, though.

I don't know you or where you're at. So I'll just say this sounds like a good idea: rather than ending the date, invite her home to hang out or get invited to her house.

If you're used to sex, have sex with her. If sex is new for you, it's okay to go slow and fuck up and lose girls and be nervous.

Being a man is an iterative, constructive process. Keep building yourself.

 

[Atlas IV]

If I had to apply some amateur psyco-analysis to myself it would be that as my investment in the girl increases (as I realise she is high value) and my investment in the outcome increases (as it feels like I'm closer to sex with a 8/9/) then that impacts my communication (and sub-communication) and makes me fuck it up and overthink things.

I think this is one part of it.

Chase had a great article about why it's best to try sleep with girls on the first day.

In my experience a big part of it is the feeling of momentum together. Once you're together moving from venue to venue, things are ramping up and getting exciting, both of you want to end things with a bang rather than a fizzle.

If I remember correctly, Chase describes two date models - the One Date (that should lead to sex) and the Informational Date - in which you don't escalate at all, just grab a quick coffee together to see if the vibe is there.

When I meet a girl, I will usually decide at the outset which kind of date I'm running. Sometimes, when I'm undecided on her, I'll start with something simple like coffee and decide on the fly whether to cut it short without escalation or turn it into a full sequence date (depending on her vibe, availability, and level of compliance).

Where it goes wrong, in my experience, is when I escalate "somewhat" on a date (kissing, touching, showing interest), but it doesn't lead to the bedroom. Often this leads to flaking/ghosting, presumably because she got the validation she wanted and lost interest in me.

So maybe try thinking about your dates in terms of Informational Dates vs One Dates, and only escalate if you're going all the way.

Not sure if other guys agree, but this is the dating model that works best for me.

 

[Gorili]

@alexlaguma,

The analysis from @Atlas IV is spot on. I want to expand on a few other things.

3. Good first (and sometimes second) date which has touching / kissing but doesn't result in sex (sometimes due to logistics). Girl feels into me and I feel into her.

What type of touching are you doing? What is the frequency? I am assuming that this is not a simple tap on her shoulder but more like resting your hand on her thighs, grabbing her ass, etc.?

Heavy touch on the date (including kissing) that doesn't lead to the bedroom could lead to a number of potential issues below:

• You've given her enough attention without having her invest proportionally. Her validation tank is full, and she's outta there. This is what Atlas is referring to above
• Reduces sexual tension and causes her interest in you to fizzle out
• Over spiking her emotions when not being able to capitalize on it could cause female state control and a state crash. See this and this

To be clear, I'm not saying that just because you kissed her on the date and you can't close her you two are done. This is not a black and white thing. This is more of a gradient where certain actions lead to a higher chance of certain outcomes occurring.

Just because we can touch or kiss doesn't mean that we should do it. Sometimes, less is more.

Furthermore, it is not just touch alone that could cause this to happen. Other forms of arousal like words can trigger this, especially in the presence of flowery / descriptive language, sex talk, etc. in the absence of touch.

Spoiler: Example

I'll provide an example from this weekend. I was on an instant date with a college girl. She had to leave in 15 mins to join her friends for ice skating, so I'm not able to close. We are seated in an isolated area at the mall that has dimmed lighting. This was not done on purpose, but I started freestyling about living in the moment, enjoying life, etc. Suddenly, she starts removing a small part of her gray sweater to expose her shoulder. Then, she starts stroking her abs area. She is getting turned on, and there was no touch involved. Contrary to what some may think, the second I saw this, it was a huge danger sign, so I had to pull back immediately. I changed the topic to where she got her phone case from, how much it costs, and if she liked it. I had to pump the brakes hard before it got out of control.

4. Breakdown in vibe in follow up communication via text. What seemed like a certainty for a future date (eg; touching, kissing, "thank you for a great night" text) ends up going nowhere.

If your texting is able to get her out in the first place, I don't think the follow-up texts are the issue here unless you turn into a potato all of a sudden. Her dropping off during the post-date texting phase seems like a consequence of what happened on the date, as opposed to the exact post-date messages that you sent her. It would be great if you could share samples though.

I also don't think the combination of characteristics above is a certainty for a future date. In this particular context, the "thank you for a great night" text could be interpreted as a consolation text or a form of social etiquette. You can imagine some nice guy who bought her a nice dinner and flowers getting the same text as you, as it is socially acceptable for her to send that text.

 

[TomInHo]

@alexlaguma Yeah, I had this exact sticking point for a while too

At first, my strategy was to try and fuck every girl on the first date. While it worked sometimes, I quickly realized I couldn’t close every single time

On top of that, I noticed something else... when I escalated on the first date but didn’t close, my chances of seeing the girl again often dropped

It felt like I was missing something

But that changed when I read an article by Chase, Floors and Ceilings, and had a few aha moments

I realized that acting sexual without closing the deal can backfire. Most women are naturally cautious about who they sleep with. Meaning that if you escalate but don’t follow through, they’ll often go home, replay the interaction in their minds, and find reasons to disqualify you

It’s like sales, if you ask a customer to buy and they leave to ‘think about it,’ they’re probably not coming back.

Why does this happen?

Because when you start the closing process, women naturally start thinking about their objections. If you don’t address those objections—like why she might hesitate to sleep with you—it leaves room for her to interpret the situation negatively later. Even if she enjoyed the moment, doubt can creep in afterward

But there were 2 things I applied to my game that changed everything

1. Sex Talk This helped me set the frame of the interaction as sexual on a logical level without only having to rely on non verbal cues. Meaning the girls got a very clear idea about my views and values behind sex and if we are compatible. It's also pretty fun to talk about

2. Objection Handling This helped me reframe any of her objections when escalating sex talk and also let the girl know we are on the same team. Ironically this ramps up comfort and compliance when done right. Before I used to fear objections, while now I see them as an opportunity to build more comfort and sexual value

Those 2 things allowed me to close more girls on first dates. And I also noticed they helped me get more girls to come out for a second date if I didn't close

Guess they made me a better better dick appointment salesman

I think this happened because those techniques helped solved attainability issues that came up when I didn't close after escalating. Meaning after she went home she thought about what I said, how I made her felt and felt more comfortable moving forward with me on a logical level

An easier option could be to not escalate as hard on the first date and only push when you're sure you can get laid. But honestly I'm not very good with restraint lol

That was my experience dealing with that sticking point but you might have different reasons for why girls avoid second dates with you.

Hopefully this helps you find more clarity

 

[alexlaguma]

Thanks boys @Atlas IV @Gorili @TomInHo

Lots for me to digest here. Let me read through and come back to you. Might drop some specific text exchanges in here to see if you can spot any patterns.

One thing that stands out -

Where it goes wrong, in my experience, is when I escalate "somewhat" on a date (kissing, touching, showing interest), but it doesn't lead to the bedroom. Often this leads to flaking/ghosting, presumably because she got the validation she wanted and lost interest in me.

I think this could be it. I've been following a two date model where I meet them for coffee and basically give zero escalation, I just chat to them like their a friend almost. I then text them a day later asking if they fancy a proper drink. Every girl I've done this with has said yes to the drink. A few of them have commented on the second date "i didn't even think you were into me".

But yeh on the second date I guess its where I step it up and give them the validation ... and if it doesn't close I then find myself in 'chaser' mode, where I'm trying to set something up to seal the deal.

Although saying that ... I think it could be a mental frame problem. Because I had something similar recently with a girl I wasn't that bothered with (tried to close second date, logistically wasn't available). But in this instance I just closed it a week later, probably because I wasn't all that bothered about the outcome and my texting was super relaxed about it. I didn't chase at all.

 

[isildur1]

Lmr on the first date is difficult to deal with - when I first began my daygame journey back in 2017 I tried to formulate a plan to bring every girl back to my house on the first date - sometimes it worked but when it did and sometimes it led to sex (30 percent of the time ) but 70 percent of the time we started making out she’d give a lot of lmr then would ask to take a cab home



After alot of that I realised that instead of working up the romantic vibe - I was pushing too hard for sex on the first date so I alternated the plan to not focus so much on escalation - because three of the hotest girls I made out with from daygame had all given me lmr either from escalating too much on the first date venue or back at my place


I decided from then on to do multiple venues on the first date to build more adventure and a psychological sense it works because you “go on a journey to multiple venues with a girl “ it brings the idea that you are together from a longer period than you actually are when you switch venues . So when I was in Dubai I did 3 venues planned in coordination instead of 1 and that tended to convert more leads and led to less “lmr”

For example in London you can take her to the Nobu Marble Arch then if you do escalate make sure you back away first be like “I’m not that easy - you’re going to have to buy me a drink at the next venue for thinking I’m such a man slut” - again this builds a bit more excitement and shows you’re just not a horny guy trying to impatiently get some .

Then maybe move her to the Churchill cigar bar which is nearby which is another intimate spot .

If she’s not feeling sex on the first date - plan the second date with her in discussion show her cool bars you know in London ( I got a list of London date locations ) or show her pictures of your cooking ( showing off that you cook to initiate a second date back to your place saying how good your cooking is ) this sounds fucking shit but it can lay a foundation together for a date back at yours and that you’re actively “planning a future with her “ rather than just looking to pump and dump her on the first date



I found laying more patient foundations on the first date led to more chances of lays on the second and third for me personally - some people may disagree as most the advice on seduction forums Taylors around “just fuck her bro” but really whenever I pushed for the first date lay some girls really didn’t like it and thought they were being used part of a plan- you need to come up with a plan for the more conservative ones simply not every girl fucks on the first date and a lot of them do change their minds last minute. Anyway if these girls are agreeing to date you and are making out with you they’re already attracted to you so unless they’re a tourist there’s no need to push it too hard on the first date.

I had some bizarre cases of lmr - one Hong Kong girl I approached in Canary Wharf took a £70 Uber alone to my place from hers at 4am and insisted we just cuddle after making out- ( again people will mock this saying “why don’t you just fuck her brOooo” - well she wasn’t dtf I’m sorry ? )

another Hong Kong girl I pushed for the first date back at mine with when I asked to cook for her suddenly went from very interested and just flipped out saying “you just wanna fuck me on the first date like everyone else “ clearly she’d been pumped and dumped before hand by another guy on the first date . If I’d played this a little bit cooler and spread it over 2-3 dates I might have been in because she was very receptive up until that point.

Clearly this stuff can be a mindfuck at times when I started out I only did one venue (Joe and the juice everytime lol - I was very inexperienced ) and the dates would tend to fizzle out sometime even after makeouts when I stretched the plan to get laid to 2-3 dates with 2-3 venues each date instead of 1 things tended to work out a lot better.


Sorry if I’m blabbering too much btw . Different women want different things at different times it’s a delicate balance by not escalating too much on the first date so you don’t get lmr to not being too stand offish and beta which might put you in the friend zone and that balance can be really hard to master in especially when every girl wants different things. might be contrary to what most are writing here

Areas to Date Around London Part 3- Further Date Plans Including Logistics ideas

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[alexlaguma]

Sorry if I’m blabbering too much btw . Different women want different things at different times it’s a delicate balance by not escalating too much on the first date so you don’t get lmr to not being too stand offish and beta which might put you in the friend zone and that balance can be really hard to master in especially when every girl wants different things. might be contrary to what most are writing here

All good bro. In fact the detailed responses is one of the reasons I like this community so much.

A lot of what you said resonates. I do think first night lays from day-game in London can be tricky, especially if you are from different parts of the city and the girl is high value. Its different when its a online meet up and you live within a mile of each other.

I'll read some of your stuff on London, always interested in good date spots. (and lol @ Joe and the Juice haha ... i don't think i'd ever get away with suggesting that to a girl)

 

[TomInHo]

A lot of what you said resonates. I do think first night lays from day-game in London can be tricky, especially if you are from different parts of the city and the girl is high value. Its different when its a online meet up and you live within a mile of each other.

Even if the girl is high value you can still get her to come to your area. A strategy I have used with girls that want to meet halfway is offer a video call for a first date instead

Great because you don't have to leave your place and can raise compliance if you ran the date well for her to come to you so you can run a more structured date

Sometimes girls won't come to you because they are still unsure about you and don't want to risk wasting their time on a date that goes nowhere

It like using Chase's 2 date model

1. Informational Date -> FaceTime
2. Structured Date - > 3 Bounce close to your place

Can also offer to Uber her to your area if you have the funds for that to make the investment easier for her

 

[isildur1]

All good bro. In fact the detailed responses is one of the reasons I like this community so much.

A lot of what you said resonates. I do think first night lays from day-game in London can be tricky, especially if you are from different parts of the city and the girl is high value. Its different when its a online meet up and you live within a mile of each other.

I'll read some of your stuff on London, always interested in good date spots. (and lol @ Joe and the Juice haha ... i don't think i'd ever get away with suggesting that to a girl)

I wasn’t getting regular dates in London until I started daygame so I had no idea what constituted as a good date idea - I was extremely timid and inexperienced and until I got 5-6ish buyers remorse/lmr on the first date I switched up to taking things a bit slower (I lost my 3 hottest girls from daygame in London by kissing them too quick- if I’d waited a date or two extra I’m sure at least one of the three would’ve converted to sex) - but in the long run I think it worked out as I got less flakes and buyers remorse playing the longerish game and the women didn’t feel like they were part of a plan to get pump and dumped on the first date - in Dubai when I did daygame there I played a longer more planned out strategy and things worked out better

The Hong Kong blow out showed me that most guys in London had the same plan of a half assed date to just try and lazily instantly bone the girl so I was just doing what the majority of lazy guys were doing so after that i switched it up . I’d realised now that my game was just like these other guys- boring , one dimensional and predictable - By her reaction I could tell that she was clearly frustrated that the romantic experience had been tainted by men too impatient and wanting easy sex and that was the catalyst for Me to switch it up to more prolonged seductions

My next date after with a Chinese masters student who I approached in King’s Cross - I just did a walk with her to whole foods High Street Kensington - bought food with a girl made her chose some of the food for a picnic ( make her part of the selection process ) we then had a picnic in the Japanese park in Kensington then I bounced her to an Iranian restaurant for tea outdoors (in Kensington ) where I spoke Persian with the waiter (I can speak Chinese too so I had done a dhv that I can speak 3 languages at least to her without expressing it on the date itself ) again this date was simple she had to go to the theatre after but the next date she bounced straight to mine- just by prolonging the seduction a little more and picking three simple venues very near each other that weren’t overly lavish but still nice I was creating the journey with her and sneaking in some dhvs on the way .

In Contrast to when I started out it would be Joe and the juice then I wouldn’t know what the fuck to do even if we made out i still didn’t have a plan because my place would usually be 40 minutes away from central London .

Most the seduction forums and telegrams seemingly had awful advice at the time of “just bone her bro” I mean like what lol? Just escalate?! Push pull?! But with seemingly no back up plan for when she doesn’t want it - or even if that worked then there was no backup plan to tell with lmr or buyers remorse often I’d be stuck with a girl back at my place who’d I’d make out with but didn’t want to fuck so early because it was still the first date and she felt like we were moving to quick .

Most my wings in London switched from pushing to the lay on the second and third dates and their results improved too - again they suffered the similar problems to me - lots of escalation on the first date that led to lmr or buyers remorse and ghosting thereafter . So In addition to my first date issues after seeing a lot of my wings having similar problems to me it was the catalyst for me to switch it up.

Again sounds contrarian to a lot of the rapid escalation advice here and I’ll probably get called a beta loser- and the “just bone her bro lol” advice that you see on YouTube and other seduction forums but it’s my take.

Another 2019 April I approached a woman in Harrods in Knightsbridge - london - took her to cafe Nero then made out with her- tried to push her to come back with me then and there she said “I have shopping to do” so I went to shoe shopping with her then went for dinner to a restaurant with her knowing by the time the dinner was finished she’d have missed her train back to come back home with me - now some people would call this “simping” oh no you took a woman out for dinner how dare you ?! But a lot of it is about situational awareness - as Tom Torero says sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war , it was clear after the coffee she didn’t want to come back with me , I could’ve left her there and not “simp out” but I made the calculated decision to long out the date to two more locations to increase comfort

What I was doing in the beginning at the of my daygame by escalating and bringing the girl back straight away was I was winning the battle but getting obliterated during the war - it worked on the yes girls but they would’ve been yeses anyway - but it was annihilating the “maybes” and turning them into no’s / buyers remorse / lmr etc. by prolonging seductions I was winning more rapport and trust with the maybes - the old method because it worked 30 percent of the time I had the illusion it was a good method but those women would’ve closed regardless when I took a step back it was actually costing me a lot of lays with women that I wanted long term and some of these women I actually saw as girlfriend potential.

I feel because I read a lot of pua books by Liam McRae who was famous for his rapid escalation it led me with the mindset that everyone wanted to just fuck on the first date which is just simply not the case - even in Liam’s books he had a lot of bad dates which I think maybe could’ve been lays if he waited a date or two more but he seemingly moved on quick whenever a girl wouldn’t give him sex on the first date - for me I was losing women that I actually liked a lot and would’ve rather spent an extra date or two than fucking it up right then and there on the first one.

I became somewhat disillusioned with my pickup idols - whilst I feel their techniques work well for liberal women and tourists I don’t think they’re necessarily the best for the “maybe” girls and after seeing other wings a lot of them a lot more successful and better looking than me have similar types of lmr/ ghosting I actually feel longer seductions are more optimal with the “ maybes” I also feel a lot of pickup coaches hide their lmr stories because they aren’t interesting or may cause students disinterests - rapid sex is something that sells because most people learning the game are impatient and men are wired biologically to spread their seed to as many women as possible in the shortest time- this is why tinder line books sell so well and rapid sex escalation YouTube videos are so popular - but alot of seductions don’t necessarily go that way and you need alternative plans for certain women .

 

[TomInHo]

@isildur1 Your approach is interesting but I'm curious

How heavily do you sexualize your conversations on the first date with a girl?

 

[isildur1]

@isildur1 Your approach is interesting but I'm curious

How heavily do you sexualize your conversations on the first date with a girl?

i have a girlfriend now - but in London it really depended on the type of girl i'd approach - as @Atlas IV posted in his reports traveling and gaming cities different women are culturally very different - In London we have large swathes of Arab women, mainland Chinese (usually here for studying) and liberal European types - With the liberal europeans like Swedish it's easy to rapidly escalate on the first date- it's in their culture and there would be little lmr but with conservative women from Mainland China for example i wouldn't sexualise my daygame interactions with them at all- i'd just build rapport and close their wechat or instagram -

Usually more conservative - less sexual more rapport building on the first date building onto the second with the aim of the second or third date to be dinner with me cooking for her. Conversation wise because i tend to date more conservative women- my types are usually Chinese, Korean , Malaysian or Kahzak I usually wouldn't sexualise the conversations at all on the first date ( again this is due to my experience with conservative women usually require more rapport building but of course it depends on the woman - if i suss out she's uncomfortable or not won over i'll focus on rapport and comfort which on average women from conservative need more of on average - i mean just see Atlas' reports from mainland China and Taiwan- between the two nations which are somewhat culturally similar the women are very different in political ideological terms and how they respond to cold approach - Chinese are on average conservative - Taiwanese are on average very liberal .

- towards the end of my daygaming in Dubai i'd usually have 3 venues and only ramp up the escalation on the 2nd and third venues - mini golf on the second - using it as an excuse to touch her while she's putting the ball by helping her swing for example (helping her hold the club from behind) then would seek to escalate when she came back to mine - Towards my last 6 months of daygame i was in dubai - i'd outline my plans here with the first venue -Coffee , Second venue mini golf - 3rd venue a bar away from the public eye- gaming in actual conservative countries helped me improve my escalation and sexualisation without actual kissing- the mini golf place i took them to was in the pitch black which helped as well - again i was trying to create a journey with her spanning with three venues close together and it helped to create a lot of opportunities for touch and comfort building.

https://mindful-masculinity.org/202...complete-dating-guide-including-dating-plans/

 

[Atlas IV]

i mean just see Atlas' reports from mainland China and Taiwan- between the two nations which are somewhat culturally similar the women are very different in political ideological terms and how they respond to cold approach - Chinese are on average conservative - Taiwanese are on average very liberal .

Yes, worlds apart in culture.

Those reports are here btw for anyone interested, I unintentionally hijacked Gorili's thread about a Chinese daygame coach

 

[alexlaguma]

@isildur1 Your approach is interesting but I'm curious

How heavily do you sexualize your conversations on the first date with a girl?

Pretty much every girl I go with is Western so I really should be doing more of this.

Sometimes it comes naturally, sometimes it doesn't. I've gotta get better at just casually steering the convo this way.

I've reviewed a lot of the sex talk gambits on here and if I'm honest they don't seem congruent with my style. (at least the way they are written). But I know a lot of people here swear by them. They seem a little elaborate for me. Maybe I need to just come up with a light / watered down version.

 

[isildur1]

@isildur1 Your approach is interesting but I'm curious

How heavily do you sexualize your conversations on the first date with a girl?

Bear in mind in london we have a lot of eastern influences- for example most uni campuses here are 70 percentish conservative ,Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Middle Eastern, Vietnamese women as international students make the baulk of the student populations in london - most high end shopping malls in London most notably Harrods and Selfridges - are also from more conservative west and east asian cultures- so im unlikely to sexualise the conversation much on the first date unless i can sus out that they are secretly liberal which is not often the case most of the time im rapport or comfort building with these women