FR++ The Lingerie Merchant

[Skippy]

Background​

Her: Mexican, big tits, nice ass, early 30s, slight tan. Sells Lingerie.

The approach:​

Spoiler

I saw her walking by in her yoga pants and thought her ass looked amazing so I went after her. Pretty sure I did a cold read on her walk. Talked about travel. And how she would go to Singapore. I disagreed with her slightly on a minor aspect to make the rapport feel stronger. Don’t think I really went into SOT’s on the approach but I remember asking her what she thought of the people in my city and she said that they don’t seem happy. So I teased her that oh maybe I need to move to her city and touched her shoulder. She had to go meet her cousins so I took down her number.

Texting was really annoying. She agreed to a soft close THREE different times before she actually came out on a date and that too she nearly ghosted the morning of. I had to ping her with a “?” after she was the one that suggested the day Anyway…

Date Structure: Met by the main street, walked to a boba tea shop, bounced to another boba tea shop, sat by the benches outside of a bank, went inside the mall and sat by the benches there, went to the grocery store to pick up some soju and food,

First Venue​

So we met at a main street intersection and walked to the first Boba tea place. She was dressed in a black tank top and black polka-dotted pants. Black and white air jordans. When she greeted me she was very bubbly and we made the usual chit-chat. I could tell she was qualifying a little bit about her wonky texting, how she forgot to reply even though she thought she did etc..

On the way there she had to take a business call and we ended up sitting in the bubble tea place for about 15 minutes while she was yammering away on the phone. I just busied myself on my phone while periodically looking around with a bored look. She apologized and was updating me while on the phone whispering “5 min” etc… But she really seemed to be enjoying herself on the call . She tells me it is from a new employee of her’s who has a lot of questions and she is the manager.

Spoiler: Boba Hopping

The Boba tea place turns out to be a dud because they have a restricted menu so I tell her we should go to another one. We order at the second boba place and then walk over to some outdoor seating area (we’re sitting side-by-side). We resume talking about traveling since she was telling me how she had to go back to Mexico last week for a wedding and she was telling me how she had a trip to India planned with her sister but she didn’t because her sister got sick right before they were supposed to. so I say “how traveling with someone else is fun because you can really connect with them and have these adventures. But it’s also interesting when you’re traveling by yourself because it’s more freeing. you can make your own schedule“ She agrees and says how “yeah you can do whatever you want to do” So I go into how it’s easier to meet locals when you’re traveling since everything is so new and fresh for you, it puts you in a really good state of mind. So the locals want to get to know you better.

She has to take another call and this time she’s rolling her eyes and miming “blah blah blah” as if to show how annoyed she is with how much the person on the other end is talking.

Finally, when her call finishes I commiserate with her about one of my coworkers who loves to monologue on our 1-1 Zoom calls. I tell her how I just test him sometimes by not saying a word while he talks to see what will happen and how he will just keep on talking for 20 min straight while I’m prepping lunch in the meantime. She seems to think it’s hilarious. (Oh side note, this girl would laugh at pretty much anything I said)

I have her tell me more about the wedding she went to in Mexico and have her tell me more about the wedding traditions. I use this to go into a routine about how the ring is put on the ring finger because there is a vein that leads to your heart so when you press down on it, you might feel a tingling in your heart. I used that to have an excuse to hold her hand and pressed on her ring finger. She was like “I dunno! because now I’m focusing on the sensation!”

I tell her about a wedding I went to this weekend and how the bride’s side of the family was from Egypt and how there was this tradition based on an old legend…I use this to segue into the Sapphire flower pattern from Bishop’s Journal (Not sure where else it’s listed) But I could tell it had her stimulated

Spoiler: Sapphire Flower Pattern

The Sapphire Flower

Ancient legend tells of a once in a lifetime love that is so deep and pure, that an incredible event occurs. It's
said that when certain lovers meet for the first time, and the love that they share is untainted, that
somewhere deep, in the bluest of the ocean, grows a flower of sapphire. The sapphire flower is so delicate
and fragile, that it can never be touched. That is, except for the lovers that it bloomed for. Its petals are like
silk, and its stem is strong. The mild ocean current gives the illusion that the flower is dancing. Perhaps it is.
Legend contends that when the lovers gaze upon the sapphire flower, the faint tone of music can be heard.
So soothing is the music, and so intoxicating, that the lovers get lost in a dance. A slow, private, dance. A
dance not just through the physical, but through the mind, and the soul. People have said that such a flower
is fantasy, and that it does not really exist. Perhaps the reality is, it does not exist for them. It isn't meant to.

She shares some stories about her traveling to Egypt for a wedding that got canceled and so I asked her about what the culture was like there and whether they were open-minded or not and she said they were not open-minded at all and shared stories about how when she was wearing shorts she nearly got arrested and how even hugging in public wasn’t allowed.

I talk about how it can be surprising that the things we take for granted can be taboo in other cultures, but at the same time, the things that we consider taboo are actually totally normal in other cultures like different drinking ages for example. She thinks about this and tries to remember if they ever checked id in Europe but can’t remember any times.

Second Venue(Mall Bench)​

At this point it was very chilly and so we moved to the mall nearby and sat by a bench. (I decide to play the questions game to avoid her investment levels dropping because I had some ptsd from a date in february where the girl didn’t say anything and just sat there with a dour pissed-off expression on her face)

So we sat on a bench inside. I started testing kino some more by “man-spreading” and having our legs touching to see what she would do, and she kept her legs there as well. So I could tell she was comfortable with my touch.

I did a loose version of purity gambit when she asked me what I thought about religion. Basically saying how I grew up religious but the thought of purity didn’t sit well with me and how people should be able to express their desires with openness and lust etc..Then talked about how some countries that are heavily religious have a culture of “shame” surrounding things like drinking, partying, and dating.

And how it’s so much better when you can do those things without shame. Especially when you can explore them with other people who you know are not going to shame you. She agrees that you should have the freedom to just be yourself.

Noticed her stroking her hair multiple times when we were sitting in the mall.

Another interesting question she asked me was “What color lingerie do I find sexiest” I told her red because obviously but also white. And she was so curious why white? So I told her how it was pure, sweet, and innocent but in a “oh I’m innocent but curious…let’s explore sex because it’s fun and pleasurable” kind of way.

We talked about spas and massages once and I asked her if she gives good massages and she said the secret to a good massage is to make it borderline painful. I told her that makes sense because sometimes pain is just a really intense form of pleasure. and she was like “Yeah! you’re right!”

The Pull​

Then we decide to grab some food by the supermarket nearby and go back to my place. We also got a bottle of soju.

Spoiler: My typical apartment tour 'routine'

Back at my place I had her take her shoes off, gave her a tour of the apartment, showed her my wardrobe and then used the bathroom so she could get comfortable. Then we took our drinks to the couch while the food was warming up. As we were chatting I put my arm around her and would lightly stroke her shoulder or her hair sometimes.

Once I had her get up to try on some of my clothes and see them glitter in the light. And as she was standing there I taught her some swing dance steps. I wanted to dance with her more and escalate on her there but I fucked it up and told her to dance to the music and she got shy and was like “nahh I’m good “ Rather than oh lets dance together.

Anyway we’re sitting back on the couch. I have her show me pictures of her dogs as an excuse to get closer again. I was looking for ways to close the gaps and kiss her.

She asked me if I believe in Zodiacs and so I asked her which one was her’s and if she knew whether if we’d get along. I asked her how she knows if there’s chemistry with someone. She says it’s when you feel comfortable and can be yourself around them.

I told her there’s another way you can tell And she asks how? And so I leaned in to kiss her. And she was like “noooo hahaha I’m from a small town. I’m traditional, I cannot kiss” So I say “Oh really, no kissing…before marriage?” She says “I’m not kidding!”

So I ask her about her last boyfriend. Apparently it was a long time ago 10 years ago…

Asked her about the guys in Mexico vs guys in America how they are as lovers. although she didn’t know much about guys in America. She said guys in mexico are passionate, so I ran the “how do you know when you’re having good passionate sex” She tells me she feels that passion and butterflies.

So I talk about the anticipation of really good passionate sex, craziest places we had sex, and I tell her a story of how I had sex in a university library and then 4 years later, the university sent out an email “Celebrating the 100th year birthday” of the library how they made it sound like such a distinguished and well-known place of academic scholarship.

Then we talked about places we fantasize about having sex in. For her, it was on a plane so I had her imagine she was on a plane with a boyfriend and how she would look at him and signal to him with her eyes that she wanted to fuck. So she gave me a mischievous look as she was trying to demonstrate. (Basically a watered-down version of Gun’s reverse sexual state induction)

She asked me what I would pick and I said space…I described what it would be like to fuck while having a view of the stars and galaxies. She seemed pretty stimulated by my description although while listening to the audio I realized my tonality could use some work…I was doing it on the fly.

We talked some more and I was taking her hand and pretending to read her palm or studying each other's hands to figure out what kind of workouts we did.

All while this was going, the questions game was still running so she asked me what traits in a girl do I hate. And I basically told her stuff that I like “when a girl can live in the moment and be adventurous, acts upon her passions” so basically the opposite of that close-minded, isn’t adventurous But that I don’t look at it from a physical point of view. She has to be adventurous, sometimes live in the moment and surrender to her desires . I don’t know if that was the best answer though…

—at one point she was showing me the tiny moles on her arms and legs

—went back to talking about her favorite music and favorite artists

Around that time it was getting late for her so I walked her to the bus stop. I led her by the hand while we walked past a bunch of homeless tents and then we held hands as we walked to the bus stop.

When her bus arrived she kissed me on the cheek and told me she would text me. She did indeed text me “Hi” when she got home and that was it Not sure if/when I’ll hit her up again since I’m leaving town for a while. And then she’ll probably be back in Mexico for a bit.

Spoiler: Reflection hidden to avoid bias

The main issue is I wasn’t sure how to escalate after she was like “I’m a traditional small-town girl”. I was setting frames of “expressing your sexuality” etc… I think it was likely just the way I went about the kiss was uncalibrated af and maybe I should’ve built up to it more…I forgot to triangulate my gaze. I’ve got a new sofa so learning how to escalate on that is. I didn’t really think about where in the sexual tension stages she was because she seemed compliant and attracted so I was like “I’ve been dragging this date out long enough, I need to get a move on and escalate already”

And overall my focus is SOT's treating them correctly so I think getting more input from her when I talk about them might be missing. And while she was compliant with my touch, it didn't feel like she was actively doing it. I think that could just be a lack of comfort.

 

[Chase]

Decent date, @Skippy. Your conversation game could use some tightening up + spicing up and personalization, and your escalation went a bit off the rails around the kiss attempt, but you recognized that. Nice to see you keeping at it.

Fine job on the initial approach and pushing through the flakiness, too.

My more detailed remarks:

Finally, when her call finishes I commiserate with her about one of my coworkers who loves to monologue on our 1-1 Zoom calls. I tell her how I just test him sometimes by not saying a word while he talks to see what will happen and how he will just keep on talking for 20 min straight while I’m prepping lunch in the meantime. She seems to think it’s hilarious. (Oh side note, this girl would laugh at pretty much anything I said)

I used to do this when I was newer -- where if a girl was exhibiting some sort of bad behavior that wasn't fully within her control, I would try to sort of bond with her to defuse the tension and let her know I wasn't butthurt about it. But after doing this multiple times with girls I realized I had trouble sexualizing all these interactions, and wondered if letting her off the hook too much was why.

What I realized ultimately was what I was REALLY trying to do was to shore up my own value: "Oh, haha, same thing happens to me! I totally know what you're going through. I do it to others!" and it is basically low-key qualifying.

So, I cut it out.

New way to deal with these situations:

HER: [doing some distracted thing]​

​

YOU: Wow, you're really busy today huh.​

​

HER: Yeah, I'm sorry, blah blah blah.​

​

YOU: So is it always like this or only when you go out with sexy guys?​

​

HER: [laughs] I'm so sorry, it's not usually like this.​

​

YOU: It's okay. I'll find some way for you to make it up to me later ​

​

HER: Deal!​

Then you just file that away and use it as callback later on.

I have her tell me more about the wedding she went to in Mexico and have her tell me more about the wedding traditions. I use this to go into a routine about how the ring is put on the ring finger because there is a vein that leads to your heart so when you press down on it, you might feel a tingling in your heart. I used that to have an excuse to hold her hand and pressed on her ring finger. She was like “I dunno! because now I’m focusing on the sensation!”

I tell her about a wedding I went to this weekend and how the bride’s side of the family was from Egypt and how there was this tradition based on an old legend…I use this to segue into the Sapphire flower pattern from Bishop’s Journal (Not sure where else it’s listed) But I could tell it had her stimulated

Spoiler: Sapphire Flower Pattern

The Sapphire Flower

Ancient legend tells of a once in a lifetime love that is so deep and pure, that an incredible event occurs. It's
said that when certain lovers meet for the first time, and the love that they share is untainted, that
somewhere deep, in the bluest of the ocean, grows a flower of sapphire. The sapphire flower is so delicate
and fragile, that it can never be touched. That is, except for the lovers that it bloomed for. Its petals are like
silk, and its stem is strong. The mild ocean current gives the illusion that the flower is dancing. Perhaps it is.
Legend contends that when the lovers gaze upon the sapphire flower, the faint tone of music can be heard.
So soothing is the music, and so intoxicating, that the lovers get lost in a dance. A slow, private, dance. A
dance not just through the physical, but through the mind, and the soul. People have said that such a flower
is fantasy, and that it does not really exist. Perhaps the reality is, it does not exist for them. It isn't meant to.

She shares some stories about her traveling to Egypt for a wedding that got canceled and so I asked her about what the culture was like there and whether they were open-minded or not and she said they were not open-minded at all and shared stories about how when she was wearing shorts she nearly got arrested and how even hugging in public wasn’t allowed.

I talk about how it can be surprising that the things we take for granted can be taboo in other cultures, but at the same time, the things that we consider taboo are actually totally normal in other cultures like different drinking ages for example. She thinks about this and tries to remember if they ever checked id in Europe but can’t remember any times.

I would just say that these are all very interesting topics... but they are not especially personal TO HER. They're also interesting, and a little romantic, but lacking in sexuality.

If it was me talking to this girl, the topics would be more like:

• "Oh, you went to the wedding in Mexico, huh? Are you at that age now where everyone is hounding you to get married and you have to beat them back with a big stick, and weddings have gone from being fun to dreaded?"
  
  
• "Weddings are great. There's always someone who gets drunk and tries to hook up with someone else inappropriately. Sometimes both get drunk and then they really both hook up. It's kinda like a double wedding at that point."
  
  
• Or I'd talk about this wedding I went to where both bride and groom got HAMMERED drunk... so totally demolished with booze that they both just ended up passing out in the bridal suite. And being like, "That's a pretty fucked up ending if you ask me -- they didn't even get to have the wedding night shag! They should've annulled that whole thing in my opinion."
  
  
• With the Egypt thing, you went on a kind of philosophical digression... but that just as easily could've gone like this:

HER: I nearly got arrested wearing shorts over there.​

​

YOU: Well, you can wear shorts with me... I won't arrest you... actually let's see, I don't know what your legs look like. You don't have cellulite, do you?​

​

HER: [shows you her legs]​

​

YOU: Hmm, okay. I think you're safe for now. But I'll have to check later after we're done eating... you know sometimes cellulite manifests after food consumption.​

​

HER: Oh really, I've never heard about that.​

​

YOU: Yep, it's totally real. Anyway, moving on...​

You don't have to sexualize my way (with humor / chase framing, etc.). You could use sex talk or some other method.

But if the goal is to bed her, you need to get it out of platonic land and into the sexy zone, preferably as close to the start of the interaction as possible so the frame is set early and she knows where this is headed.

So we sat on a bench inside. I started testing kino some more by “man-spreading” and having our legs touching to see what she would do, and she kept her legs there as well. So I could tell she was comfortable with my touch.

I did a loose version of purity gambit when she asked me what I thought about religion. Basically saying how I grew up religious but the thought of purity didn’t sit well with me and how people should be able to express their desires with openness and lust etc..Then talked about how some countries that are heavily religious have a culture of “shame” surrounding things like drinking, partying, and dating.

And how it’s so much better when you can do those things without shame. Especially when you can explore them with other people who you know are not going to shame you. She agrees that you should have the freedom to just be yourself.

Noticed her stroking her hair multiple times when we were sitting in the mall.

All going well so far.

Another interesting question she asked me was “What color lingerie do I find sexiest” I told her red because obviously but also white. And she was so curious why white? So I told her how it was pure, sweet, and innocent but in a “oh I’m innocent but curious…let’s explore sex because it’s fun and pleasurable” kind of way.

Great opportunity to turn it back to her:

HER: What color lingerie do you find sexiest?​

​

YOU: Hmm, that depends... what color lingerie do you have on?​

​

HER: [shows you a glimpse of her bra/panties]​

​

YOU: Oh wow, that's the one... my favorite color... how did you know? You really did your homework...​

The more you can get into a habit of "any time a woman asks me for my opinion, find some way to tie it to her / get her involvement, and very preferably make it sexual, and even more preferably get her to comply with me in some way in which I can then frame her as having invested extra in me / the date", the better a place you will be.

We talked about spas and massages once and I asked her if she gives good massages and she said the secret to a good massage is to make it borderline painful. I told her that makes sense because sometimes pain is just a really intense form of pleasure. and she was like “Yeah! you’re right!”

The Pull​

Then we decide to grab some food by the supermarket nearby and go back to my place. We also got a bottle of soju.

Spoiler: My typical apartment tour 'routine'

Back at my place I had her take her shoes off, gave her a tour of the apartment, showed her my wardrobe and then used the bathroom so she could get comfortable. Then we took our drinks to the couch while the food was warming up. As we were chatting I put my arm around her and would lightly stroke her shoulder or her hair sometimes.

Once I had her get up to try on some of my clothes and see them glitter in the light. And as she was standing there I taught her some swing dance steps. I wanted to dance with her more and escalate on her there but I fucked it up and told her to dance to the music and she got shy and was like “nahh I’m good “ Rather than oh lets dance together.

Anyway we’re sitting back on the couch. I have her show me pictures of her dogs as an excuse to get closer again. I was looking for ways to close the gaps and kiss her.

So far everything here is pretty good.

The dance part messed up but you were experimenting with something new and that will happen. You'll do it better next time, or else drop that tactic and go for something else.

This part was a bit botched:

She asked me if I believe in Zodiacs and so I asked her which one was her’s and if she knew whether if we’d get along. I asked her how she knows if there’s chemistry with someone. She says it’s when you feel comfortable and can be yourself around them.

Here's how this should've gone:

YOU: So how do you know if there's chemistry with someone?​

​

HER: It's when you feel comfortable and can be yourself around them.​

​

YOU: I see, I see. So what would you do if you wanted to make me feel really comfortable and like I could be myself around you, like in this moment right now?​

​

HER: [laughs] Well, I'd blah blah blah [ideally she makes some moves on you]​

​

YOU: Huh, that's not bad. So let's say I was feeling pretty comfortable... what would happen next?​

The other way it could go is if you just ask her if she's feeling comfortable, but that's a bit more of a gamble since it's leaving it to her to decide whether to proceed forward or not. Tasking her with "making you feel comfortable" gives her a challenge that she 'wins' by escalating on you. Which is a lot more what you want.

I told her there’s another way you can tell And she asks how? And so I leaned in to kiss her. And she was like “noooo hahaha I’m from a small town. I’m traditional, I cannot kiss” So I say “Oh really, no kissing…before marriage?” She says “I’m not kidding!”

You're chasing here. You did okay up to this point, then chased for the kiss. She reacted by pulling away, which is the natural reaction to pursuit (give chase --> run away).

If you made this into more of an extended gambit, it might've worked: "How can you tell?" "Well, I don't know if I should tell you, it might get you too excited," etc.

More of a micro point, but worth pointing out: telling her there's another way to know if there's chemistry BESIDES her feeling comfortable and like she can be herself implies you want to kiss her when she does NOT feel comfortable and like she can be herself. Which adds an extra layer of implied discomfort to the kiss.

Not a big deal if she's really feeling it (she will just ignore that), but if it's delicate at all these little minor finesse things can add up.

So I ask her about her last boyfriend. Apparently it was a long time ago 10 years ago…

There's a known effect where asking a woman about her prior lovers prior to first sex has a known dampening effect on her romantic/sexual desires toward a guy. It just makes a woman feel like the guy is interested in her more platonically than romantically/sexually.

There are ways to frame it right and avoid that... like if you are challenging her as not being naughty enough and want her to talk about some past sexual experience, or being too inexperienced and testing if she's ever even had a boyfriend before... but you really want to have the proper framing if you're going to do that.

The other problem here:

Between this and the "no kissing before marriage" bit, all you are doing is cementing her emotion of the kiss rejection:

Brain Hacks: Women, Emotions, and Cementing Emotion

In "How to Approach a Girl Wherever You Are (Easily)," J comments: “Hey Chase, Another Great article you churn these things out left and right man! This one was so info packed I'm finding myself reading it again and again which is a great thing. One idea that was running through my head while...

www.girlschase.com

See this article for how to manage multiple kiss declines in a calibrated way without cementing the decline:

The Slow-Build Kiss

When the situation isn’t perfect for a smooch, use the slow-build kiss. Seed the kiss, get her thinking about it, then –once you’ve prepared her for it – kiss her. Sometimes you find yourself in a situation – whether in public or alone – where you know you should kiss a girl, but the setup just...

www.girlschase.com

Asked her about the guys in Mexico vs guys in America how they are as lovers. although she didn’t know much about guys in America. She said guys in mexico are passionate, so I ran the “how do you know when you’re having good passionate sex” She tells me she feels that passion and butterflies.

Again, talking to her about other men is just driving her away from thinking about you and her.

Possible to do with good finesse... but the right notes aren't being hit for it to work out here.

I realize you said you started stumbling after her kiss decline; looks like this was probably some of the stumbling.

So I talk about the anticipation of really good passionate sex, craziest places we had sex, and I tell her a story of how I had sex in a university library and then 4 years later, the university sent out an email “Celebrating the 100th year birthday” of the library how they made it sound like such a distinguished and well-known place of academic scholarship.

This is a kind of "cool story" but it's not really the right time for sex stories... and if you want to tell a sex story, I would at least hope you put a strong focus on how the girl involved had such an incredible experience and squirted all over the economics books or something like that that sexually prizes you. "That university had NO idea, lol" is fine as a cherry on top... but the main point (without bragging about it) needs to be that you are killer in the sack and the girl had a REALLY good time.

Then we talked about places we fantasize about having sex in. For her, it was on a plane so I had her imagine she was on a plane with a boyfriend and how she would look at him and signal to him with her eyes that she wanted to fuck. So she gave me a mischievous look as she was trying to demonstrate. (Basically a watered-down version of Gun’s reverse sexual state induction)

More of this boyfriend stuff.

Why not, "All right, imagine we are on that plane... and we've been dating a few weeks now; we're already very comfortable with each other but it's still so new and fresh... and it is that time of the month for you and you are just SUPER randy... how would you let me know you wanted me to drag you into the cramped, tiny airplane bathroom and fuck you RIGHT NOW?"

And then if she really gets into the roleplay, just drag her to your bathroom to demonstrate "how you would position yourself in an airplane bathroom... I really want to see this... I bet you've planned it all out."

You've got to stop talking about women and other men and get them talking about and imagining them and YOU.

All while this was going, the questions game was still running so she asked me what traits in a girl do I hate. And I basically told her stuff that I like “when a girl can live in the moment and be adventurous, acts upon her passions” so basically the opposite of that close-minded, isn’t adventurous But that I don’t look at it from a physical point of view. She has to be adventurous, sometimes live in the moment and surrender to her desires . I don’t know if that was the best answer though…

Should've teased her on something related to the conversation with her.

Like, in an obvious teasing, exaggerated voice: "OMG, you know what I hate, is these ANNOYING business chicks who just get on these LONG-ass phone calls right in the MIDDLE of your date with them, and then they just TALK and TALK and they are LAUGHING, OMG... if I ever met a chick like that I would just send her right back to the chick factory and order a new one. SO obnoxious."

Again, you are talking about general stuff here ("when a girl can be adventurous, passionate") instead of talking about you and her, which is what the conversation topic should have been about.

—at one point she was showing me the tiny moles on her arms and legs

Did you offer to connect the dots?

Gotta have fun with this stuff, man. Make it flirtatious, sexy, playful, etc.!

....

Anyway, you're doing a lot well. Your conversation is decent... BUT it needs to be sexualized and PERSONALIZED a lot toward the girl.

You need to especially get off these more general topics, which are nice, and instead get to stuff that is about HER and about HER + YOU.

You need to be weaving sexuality into your conversations much earlier, so she knows what to expect with you.

You need to take the times when you would normally talk about her + some other guy and instead get her to think about you + her.

Make those adjustments and I expect you will see some different, sexier, and more flirtatious and compliant responses from the women you are chatting up and taking out onto dates.

Cheers,
Chase

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Decent date, @Skippy. Your conversation game could use some tightening up + spicing up and personalization, and your escalation went a bit off the rails around the kiss attempt, but you recognized that. Nice to see you keeping at it.

Fine job on the initial approach and pushing through the flakiness, too.

My more detailed remarks:



I used to do this when I was newer -- where if a girl was exhibiting some sort of bad behavior that wasn't fully within her control, I would try to sort of bond with her to defuse the tension and let her know I wasn't butthurt about it. But after doing this multiple times with girls I realized I had trouble sexualizing all these interactions, and wondered if letting her off the hook too much was why.

What I realized ultimately was what I was REALLY trying to do was to shore up my own value: "Oh, haha, same thing happens to me! I totally know what you're going through. I do it to others!" and it is basically low-key qualifying.

So, I cut it out.

New way to deal with these situations:

HER: [doing some distracted thing]​

​

YOU: Wow, you're really busy today huh.​

​

HER: Yeah, I'm sorry, blah blah blah.​

​

YOU: So is it always like this or only when you go out with sexy guys?​

​

HER: [laughs] I'm so sorry, it's not usually like this.​

​

YOU: It's okay. I'll find some way for you to make it up to me later ​

​

HER: Deal!​

Then you just file that away and use it as callback later on.



I would just say that these are all very interesting topics... but they are not especially personal TO HER. They're also interesting, and a little romantic, but lacking in sexuality.

If it was me talking to this girl, the topics would be more like:

• "Oh, you went to the wedding in Mexico, huh? Are you at that age now where everyone is hounding you to get married and you have to beat them back with a big stick, and weddings have gone from being fun to dreaded?"
  
  
• "Weddings are great. There's always someone who gets drunk and tries to hook up with someone else inappropriately. Sometimes both get drunk and then they really both hook up. It's kinda like a double wedding at that point."
  
  
• Or I'd talk about this wedding I went to where both bride and groom got HAMMERED drunk... so totally demolished with booze that they both just ended up passing out in the bridal suite. And being like, "That's a pretty fucked up ending if you ask me -- they didn't even get to have the wedding night shag! They should've annulled that whole thing in my opinion."
  
  
• With the Egypt thing, you went on a kind of philosophical digression... but that just as easily could've gone like this:

HER: I nearly got arrested wearing shorts over there.​

​

YOU: Well, you can wear shorts with me... I won't arrest you... actually let's see, I don't know what your legs look like. You don't have cellulite, do you?​

​

HER: [shows you her legs]​

​

YOU: Hmm, okay. I think you're safe for now. But I'll have to check later after we're done eating... you know sometimes cellulite manifests after food consumption.​

​

HER: Oh really, I've never heard about that.​

​

YOU: Yep, it's totally real. Anyway, moving on...​

You don't have to sexualize my way (with humor / chase framing, etc.). You could use sex talk or some other method.

But if the goal is to bed her, you need to get it out of platonic land and into the sexy zone, preferably as close to the start of the interaction as possible so the frame is set early and she knows where this is headed.



All going well so far.



Great opportunity to turn it back to her:

HER: What color lingerie do you find sexiest?​

​

YOU: Hmm, that depends... what color lingerie do you have on?​

​

HER: [shows you a glimpse of her bra/panties]​

​

YOU: Oh wow, that's the one... my favorite color... how did you know? You really did your homework...​

The more you can get into a habit of "any time a woman asks me for my opinion, find some way to tie it to her / get her involvement, and very preferably make it sexual, and even more preferably get her to comply with me in some way in which I can then frame her as having invested extra in me / the date", the better a place you will be.



So far everything here is pretty good.

The dance part messed up but you were experimenting with something new and that will happen. You'll do it better next time, or else drop that tactic and go for something else.

This part was a bit botched:



Here's how this should've gone:

YOU: So how do you know if there's chemistry with someone?​

​

HER: It's when you feel comfortable and can be yourself around them.​

​

YOU: I see, I see. So what would you do if you wanted to make me feel really comfortable and like I could be myself around you, like in this moment right now?​

​

HER: [laughs] Well, I'd blah blah blah [ideally she makes some moves on you]​

​

YOU: Huh, that's not bad. So let's say I was feeling pretty comfortable... what would happen next?​

The other way it could go is if you just ask her if she's feeling comfortable, but that's a bit more of a gamble since it's leaving it to her to decide whether to proceed forward or not. Tasking her with "making you feel comfortable" gives her a challenge that she 'wins' by escalating on you. Which is a lot more what you want.



You're chasing here. You did okay up to this point, then chased for the kiss. She reacted by pulling away, which is the natural reaction to pursuit (give chase --> run away).

If you made this into more of an extended gambit, it might've worked: "How can you tell?" "Well, I don't know if I should tell you, it might get you too excited," etc.

More of a micro point, but worth pointing out: telling her there's another way to know if there's chemistry BESIDES her feeling comfortable and like she can be herself implies you want to kiss her when she does NOT feel comfortable and like she can be herself. Which adds an extra layer of implied discomfort to the kiss.

Not a big deal if she's really feeling it (she will just ignore that), but if it's delicate at all these little minor finesse things can add up.





There's a known effect where asking a woman about her prior lovers prior to first sex has a known dampening effect on her romantic/sexual desires toward a guy. It just makes a woman feel like the guy is interested in her more platonically than romantically/sexually.

There are ways to frame it right and avoid that... like if you are challenging her as not being naughty enough and want her to talk about some past sexual experience, or being too inexperienced and testing if she's ever even had a boyfriend before... but you really want to have the proper framing if you're going to do that.

The other problem here:

Between this and the "no kissing before marriage" bit, all you are doing is cementing her emotion of the kiss rejection:

Brain Hacks: Women, Emotions, and Cementing Emotion

In "How to Approach a Girl Wherever You Are (Easily)," J comments: “Hey Chase, Another Great article you churn these things out left and right man! This one was so info packed I'm finding myself reading it again and again which is a great thing. One idea that was running through my head while...

www.girlschase.com

See this article for how to manage multiple kiss declines in a calibrated way without cementing the decline:

The Slow-Build Kiss

When the situation isn’t perfect for a smooch, use the slow-build kiss. Seed the kiss, get her thinking about it, then –once you’ve prepared her for it – kiss her. Sometimes you find yourself in a situation – whether in public or alone – where you know you should kiss a girl, but the setup just...

www.girlschase.com

Again, talking to her about other men is just driving her away from thinking about you and her.

Possible to do with good finesse... but the right notes aren't being hit for it to work out here.

I realize you said you started stumbling after her kiss decline; looks like this was probably some of the stumbling.



This is a kind of "cool story" but it's not really the right time for sex stories... and if you want to tell a sex story, I would at least hope you put a strong focus on how the girl involved had such an incredible experience and squirted all over the economics books or something like that that sexually prizes you. "That university had NO idea, lol" is fine as a cherry on top... but the main point (without bragging about it) needs to be that you are killer in the sack and the girl had a REALLY good time.



More of this boyfriend stuff.

Why not, "All right, imagine we are on that plane... and we've been dating a few weeks now; we're already very comfortable with each other but it's still so new and fresh... and it is that time of the month for you and you are just SUPER randy... how would you let me know you wanted me to drag you into the cramped, tiny airplane bathroom and fuck you RIGHT NOW?"

And then if she really gets into the roleplay, just drag her to your bathroom to demonstrate "how you would position yourself in an airplane bathroom... I really want to see this... I bet you've planned it all out."

You've got to stop talking about women and other men and get them talking about and imagining them and YOU.



Should've teased her on something related to the conversation with her.

Like, in an obvious teasing, exaggerated voice: "OMG, you know what I hate, is these ANNOYING business chicks who just get on these LONG-ass phone calls right in the MIDDLE of your date with them, and then they just TALK and TALK and they are LAUGHING, OMG... if I ever met a chick like that I would just send her right back to the chick factory and order a new one. SO obnoxious."

Again, you are talking about general stuff here ("when a girl can be adventurous, passionate") instead of talking about you and her, which is what the conversation topic should have been about.



Did you offer to connect the dots?

Gotta have fun with this stuff, man. Make it flirtatious, sexy, playful, etc.!

....

Anyway, you're doing a lot well. Your conversation is decent... BUT it needs to be sexualized and PERSONALIZED a lot toward the girl.

You need to especially get off these more general topics, which are nice, and instead get to stuff that is about HER and about HER + YOU.

You need to be weaving sexuality into your conversations much earlier, so she knows what to expect with you.

You need to take the times when you would normally talk about her + some other guy and instead get her to think about you + her.

Make those adjustments and I expect you will see some different, sexier, and more flirtatious and compliant responses from the women you are chatting up and taking out onto dates.

Cheers,
Chase

Ah yes...any time you Chase makes a comment on a field report is always a breathe of fresh air


I really love the sexual humor style and it's my preferred way of doing things. Humor is such a great a diffuser of awkward tension and a sneaky way to plant thoughts in her head and set frames. It does so much!

Do you have an article, post or resource to check out?

 

[Chase]

@PaulieFlyn10,

Glad you enjoyed the response!

I really love the sexual humor style and it's my preferred way of doing things. Humor is such a great a diffuser of awkward tension and a sneaky way to plant thoughts in her head and set frames. It does so much!

Do you have an article, post or resource to check out?

Well, articles-wise, I have these on various types of sexual humor:

Secrets to Getting Girls: Chase Framing

Alright gentlemen, if you feel like fishing with dynamite, I’m going to show you how in this post on Chase Framing. This is how to get girls to chase you. If your goal is women pursuing you, women chasing after you, women trying to sleep with you… chase framing is the closest thing to a magic...

www.girlschase.com

How to Flirt with a Girl

The other day I got told I was a very good flirt. And, I suppose, I am. Of course, I wasn't always a good flirt... well, perhaps I was always at least a little bit of a flirt. What's it matter if you know how to flirt with a girl or not? In fact, it matters a good deal. Flirting is how you...

www.girlschase.com

Teasing a Girl the Right Way

A reader recently wrote in to ask me why I thought his text conversations weren't going anywhere. He's been working really hard to get his game tightened down, and thought he was doing well... but here, again, he could feel this girl slipping away. The texting transcript he sent picks up...

www.girlschase.com

How to Use "Grand Master Style" to Rack Up Scads of Lays

GM style: a crass, irreverent, and utterly hilarious way to make women horny, excited... and ready to hop in bed quick. In 1999, an American expat in Paris named Nathan Szilard commented online about a talented natural seducer in a bar he kept running into: “There’s that guy -- looks like an...

www.girlschase.com

I have a couple of videos on GirlsChase.TV (you need a subscription for these though) that deal in humor, though it's more general humor and not specifically sexual:

Fantastic Fundamentals 24: Delivering Good Humor

The right humor delivery makes the difference between laughs and frowns.So what goes into good delivery of humor? Quite a lot!In this lesson, we cover:The secre

www.girlschase.tv

Fantastic Fundamentals 25: Appropriate, Timely Humor

Delivering the wrong joke at the wrong time and you can wear out your welcome FAST!In this lesson, we look at how to deliver the right kind of humor at the righ

www.girlschase.tv

Then when it comes to products, I have two:

1. Spellbinding: Get Her Talking, which in particular has a companion book called The Chase Framing Handbook with a whole bunch of chase frame examples and breakdowns on how they work / what they do, plus how to create similar types of chase frames.
   
   
2. The Dating Artisan Module 2, Lesson 4: Chase Framing and Sexual Innuendo, which releases 14 days after you sign up to One Date. Lesson 2.4 contains 50 minutes of discussion and examples of various kinds and uses of sexual humor... it's the most comprehensive resource I have on it.

Hope these help!

Chase

 

[Skippy]

@Chase Wow...I reread your post more times than I can count! This was all tremendously helpful and eye-opening because a lot of what you pointed out were mistakes I had been making for a long time. I can't wait to implement these changes on future dates

I used to do this when I was newer -- where if a girl was exhibiting some sort of bad behavior that wasn't fully within her control, I would try to sort of bond with her to defuse the tension and let her know I wasn't butthurt about it. But after doing this multiple times with girls I realized I had trouble sexualizing all these interactions, and wondered if letting her off the hook too much was why.

What I realized ultimately was what I was REALLY trying to do was to shore up my own value: "Oh, haha, same thing happens to me! I totally know what you're going through. I do it to others!" and it is basically low-key qualifying.

So, I cut it out.

New way to deal with these situations:

HER: [doing some distracted thing]YOU: Wow, you're really busy today huh.HER: Yeah, I'm sorry, blah blah blah.YOU: So is it always like this or only when you go out with sexy guys?HER: [laughs] I'm so sorry, it's not usually like this.YOU: It's okay. I'll find some way for you to make it up to me later HER: Deal!
Then you just file that away and use it as callback later on.

Absolutely love this response and how versatile it is. It still keeps the vibe positive but also expresses your boundaries in a graceful way.

I remember something loosely related that I did once but I didn't think to apply it to a situation like this. I was texting a girl(different girl) and she flaked on the date but was super apologetic about it and something unexpected came up (but not negative). The vibe between us in person was really playful and sexual so I just immediately texted back "hmm how u gonna make it up to me " Unfortunately she had the logistics of a toaster oven so we didn't actually end up meeting, but she did try to make alternate plans for the next day

I would just say that these are all very interesting topics... but they are not especially personal TO HER. They're also interesting, and a little romantic, but lacking in sexuality.

If it was me talking to this girl, the topics would be more like:

• "Oh, you went to the wedding in Mexico, huh? Are you at that age now where everyone is hounding you to get married and you have to beat them back with a big stick, and weddings have gone from being fun to dreaded?"
  
  
• "Weddings are great. There's always someone who gets drunk and tries to hook up with someone else inappropriately. Sometimes both get drunk and then they really both hook up. It's kinda like a double wedding at that point."
  
  
• Or I'd talk about this wedding I went to where both bride and groom got HAMMERED drunk... so totally demolished with booze that they both just ended up passing out in the bridal suite. And being like, "That's a pretty fucked up ending if you ask me -- they didn't even get to have the wedding night shag! They should've annulled that whole thing in my opinion."
  
  
• With the Egypt thing, you went on a kind of philosophical digression... but that just as easily could've gone like this:

HER: I nearly got arrested wearing shorts over there.YOU: Well, you can wear shorts with me... I won't arrest you... actually let's see, I don't know what your legs look like. You don't have cellulite, do you?HER: [shows you her legs]YOU: Hmm, okay. I think you're safe for now. But I'll have to check later after we're done eating... you know sometimes cellulite manifests after food consumption.HER: Oh really, I've never heard about that.YOU: Yep, it's totally real. Anyway, moving on...
You don't have to sexualize my way (with humor / chase framing, etc.). You could use sex talk or some other method.

But if the goal is to bed her, you need to get it out of platonic land and into the sexy zone, preferably as close to the start of the interaction as possible so the frame is set early and she knows where this is headed.

Got it. Yeah I have been adding topics that are a little more romantic with things like the patterning but I guess the sexuality is still missing. That's probably been a huge element missing in my interactions for YEARS so I will be paying extra attention to it.

The more you can get into a habit of "any time a woman asks me for my opinion, find some way to tie it to her / get her involvement, and very preferably make it sexual, and even more preferably get her to comply with me in some way in which I can then frame her as having invested extra in me / the date", the better a place you will be.

Noted...and I can see situations like this coming up a lot on dates, especially with something like the questions game.

You're chasing here. You did okay up to this point, then chased for the kiss. She reacted by pulling away, which is the natural reaction to pursuit (give chase --> run away).

If you made this into more of an extended gambit, it might've worked: "How can you tell?" "Well, I don't know if I should tell you, it might get you too excited," etc.

More of a micro point, but worth pointing out: telling her there's another way to know if there's chemistry BESIDES her feeling comfortable and like she can be herself implies you want to kiss her when she does NOT feel comfortable and like she can be herself. Which adds an extra layer of implied discomfort to the kiss.

Not a big deal if she's really feeling it (she will just ignore that), but if it's delicate at all these little minor finesse things can add up.

Okay yeah that makes sense. If I had drawn it out too it could've potentially avoided the whole "suddenness" of the kiss attempt as well. And yeah I agree in hindsight that it was uncalibrated for me to say there's another way to know if there's chemistry besides her knowing that she's feeling comfortable and like she can be herself. And come to think of it, it's basically just disregarding and ignoring what she said. So it's exactly the opposite of being personalized to her, which is what I need to be moving towards.

More of this boyfriend stuff.

Why not, "All right, imagine we are on that plane... and we've been dating a few weeks now; we're already very comfortable with each other but it's still so new and fresh... and it is that time of the month for you and you are just SUPER randy... how would you let me know you wanted me to drag you into the cramped, tiny airplane bathroom and fuck you RIGHT NOW?"

And then if she really gets into the roleplay, just drag her to your bathroom to demonstrate "how you would position yourself in an airplane bathroom... I really want to see this... I bet you've planned it all out."

You've got to stop talking about women and other men and get them talking about and imagining them and YOU.

Damn this is good. Originally what I told her was "Let's say you're sitting next to this sexy stranger..." (I forget what if I did any linking) But I could tell there was some resistance and objections coming from her about the word "stranger" so I changed it to "boyfriend". Which was equally bad but for different reasons as you pointed out.

Introducing it the way you mentioned with
"All right, imagine we are on that plane... and we've been dating a few weeks now; we're already very comfortable with each other but it's still so new and fresh"
allows me to insert myself into it AND retain all the 'social frame benefits' of "someone you've been dating for a while and already feel comfortable with" friggin amazing!

Anyway, you're doing a lot well. Your conversation is decent... BUT it needs to be sexualized and PERSONALIZED a lot toward the girl.

You need to especially get off these more general topics, which are nice, and instead get to stuff that is about HER and about HER + YOU.

You need to be weaving sexuality into your conversations much earlier, so she knows what to expect with you.

You need to take the times when you would normally talk about her + some other guy and instead get her to think about you + her.

Make those adjustments and I expect you will see some different, sexier, and more flirtatious and compliant responses from the women you are chatting up and taking out onto dates.

Will do! Thanks a ton for all the detailed feedback. I really appreciate it

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

@PaulieFlyn10,

Glad you enjoyed the response!



Well, articles-wise, I have these on various types of sexual humor:

Secrets to Getting Girls: Chase Framing

Alright gentlemen, if you feel like fishing with dynamite, I’m going to show you how in this post on Chase Framing. This is how to get girls to chase you. If your goal is women pursuing you, women chasing after you, women trying to sleep with you… chase framing is the closest thing to a magic...

www.girlschase.com

How to Flirt with a Girl

The other day I got told I was a very good flirt. And, I suppose, I am. Of course, I wasn't always a good flirt... well, perhaps I was always at least a little bit of a flirt. What's it matter if you know how to flirt with a girl or not? In fact, it matters a good deal. Flirting is how you...

www.girlschase.com

Teasing a Girl the Right Way

A reader recently wrote in to ask me why I thought his text conversations weren't going anywhere. He's been working really hard to get his game tightened down, and thought he was doing well... but here, again, he could feel this girl slipping away. The texting transcript he sent picks up...

www.girlschase.com

How to Use "Grand Master Style" to Rack Up Scads of Lays

GM style: a crass, irreverent, and utterly hilarious way to make women horny, excited... and ready to hop in bed quick. In 1999, an American expat in Paris named Nathan Szilard commented online about a talented natural seducer in a bar he kept running into: “There’s that guy -- looks like an...

www.girlschase.com

I have a couple of videos on GirlsChase.TV (you need a subscription for these though) that deal in humor, though it's more general humor and not specifically sexual:

Fantastic Fundamentals 24: Delivering Good Humor

The right humor delivery makes the difference between laughs and frowns.So what goes into good delivery of humor? Quite a lot!In this lesson, we cover:The secre

www.girlschase.tv

Fantastic Fundamentals 25: Appropriate, Timely Humor

Delivering the wrong joke at the wrong time and you can wear out your welcome FAST!In this lesson, we look at how to deliver the right kind of humor at the righ

www.girlschase.tv

Then when it comes to products, I have two:

1. Spellbinding: Get Her Talking, which in particular has a companion book called The Chase Framing Handbook with a whole bunch of chase frame examples and breakdowns on how they work / what they do, plus how to create similar types of chase frames.
   
   
2. The Dating Artisan Module 2, Lesson 4: Chase Framing and Sexual Innuendo, which releases 14 days after you sign up to One Date. Lesson 2.4 contains 50 minutes of discussion and examples of various kinds and uses of sexual humor... it's the most comprehensive resource I have on it.

Hope these help!

Chase

Thanks for the response will have a look

Are there any movie characters or Tv personalities with similar style as well?

You mentioned Russell Brand one time. Was wondering if there any others you've noticed

 

[Chase]

@Skippy,

I'm thrilled to hear it, man.

I went through a stretch like that, where I kept saying to myself, "Why is it so hard sexing things up with girls?"

Finally you start nailing it down to a lot of these conversation topics / choices, beyond just vibe/touch. Makes a big difference.

Damn this is good. Originally what I told her was "Let's say you're sitting next to this sexy stranger..." (I forget what if I did any linking) But I could tell there was some resistance and objections coming from her about the word "stranger" so I changed it to "boyfriend". Which was equally bad but for different reasons as you pointed out.

Introducing it the way you mentioned with
"All right, imagine we are on that plane... and we've been dating a few weeks now; we're already very comfortable with each other but it's still so new and fresh"
allows me to insert myself into it AND retain all the 'social frame benefits' of "someone you've been dating for a while and already feel comfortable with" friggin amazing!

Right. All you're doing is mixing in future projection + role-playing there. You can read these if you want to cement those more as tactics in your head:

Tactics Tuesdays: How to Future Project

If you can future project, you can lead a woman to imagine you as a part of her future. This is no mythical trick -- it only takes words to do. One of your prime objectives with a new woman is to have her think of you in a different way from how she thinks of other men. Most men to her are...

www.girlschase.com

How to Use Role-Playing While Talking with Girls

A tactic we’ve left off discussing much here previously is role-playing. It’s taught in the seduction community at large as an effective way for jazzing up your interactions with women, and I was exposed to it early on, with a wingman in 2006 who was a heavy user of the tactic. My personal bone...

www.girlschase.com

They don't get a lot of discussion in seduction these days (probably part of that is my fault for not discussing them as much as techniques) but they're super useful.

Will do! Thanks a ton for all the detailed feedback. I really appreciate it

You're very welcome!


@PaulieFlyn10,

Thanks for the response will have a look

Are there any movie characters or Tv personalities with similar style as well?

You mentioned Russell Brand one time. Was wondering if there any others you've noticed

Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan's James Bonds both used innuendos / chase frames somewhat similar to mine.

Not sure if the other Bonds did; I haven't watched them all.

I can't think of other examples though. I learned it from a natural buddy + A2daMIR's many wonderful reports.

Chase

 

[ulrich]

Are there any movie characters or Tv personalities with similar style as well?

Charlie Sheen is amazing with reframing in Two & Half Men.

The episodes often have women shit testing him and he sidestepping the tests while cracking a joke.

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Charlie Sheen is amazing with reframing in Two & Half Men.

The episodes often have women shit testing him and he sidestepping the tests while cracking a joke.

Thanks bro

Will rewatch... i loved that show

 

[POB]

Charlie Sheen is amazing with reframing in Two & Half Men.

The episodes often have women shit testing him and he sidestepping the tests while cracking a joke.

Charlie usually goes:
I know it's my fault > I don't care > In fact you are to blame because you are hot > Let's get back to have fun
Love it!

 

[Chase]

Charlie usually goes:
I know it's my fault > I don't care > In fact you are to blame because you are hot > Let's get back to have fun
Love it!

That's interesting.

Sounds like he's defusing resistance by taking the blame first, then once the girl thinks he's on the same page with her he just leads it in a totally different / sexual direction.

Nice pacing and leading there...

 

[Chubadoo]

Why not, "All right, imagine we are on that plane... and we've been dating a few weeks now; we're already very comfortable with each other but it's still so new and fresh... and it is that time of the month for you and you are just SUPER randy... how would you let me know you wanted me to drag you into the cramped, tiny airplane bathroom and fuck you RIGHT NOW?"

And then if she really gets into the roleplay, just drag her to your bathroom to demonstrate "how you would position yourself in an airplane bathroom... I really want to see this... I bet you've planned it all out."

You've got to stop talking about women and other men and get them talking about and imagining them and YOU.

Damn that's actually a good plan.

I told her there’s another way you can tell And she asks how? And so I leaned in to kiss her. And she was like “noooo hahaha I’m from a small town. I’m traditional, I cannot kiss” So I say “Oh really, no kissing…before marriage?” She says “I’m not kidding!”

Should've just gone for another kiss some time later

I tried this with a girl I dated at a cafeteria, tried to make out with her randomly as we're sitting next to each other, first time she dodged me, second we made out for a few, but then again I didn't lay her in the end and she never went on another date with me so ..