FR The New Frontier (1/X)

[AFCnoob]

Summary: Meet a girl I've talked to before, she's hip to "the game", and practically shuts me down.

[Sandy] Italian [Rating: objective 8/subjective 8][Age: 23](ongoing)

Open: pre-existing
I saw [Sandy] in one of my "home base" venues. I'd talked with her before and figured at the time she would never go for me, but that was pre GC, so I figured "what the hell", I'd give it a chance. I talked to [Sandy] for a while, and she seemed barely interested, but did't remove herself from the conversation. I kept trying to pay her compliments, but she was convinced every single one was a "line", and told me there was no way she'd fall for my game. I didn't quite know how to respond to that, but laid off the overt compliments.

Instead I established rapport and tried for some deep diving, but she kept things light. I tried sexual framing--minefield. I tried chase framing--shot down (luckily I didn't challenge her on any frames). She was throwing up all kinds of barriers, so I decided to change tack: "So, you've got to teach me some Italian sometime." I said.
"What do you want to know, something to pick girls up, I guess." she replied.
"Ugh" I thought, this girl is convinced I'm some sort of lothario (although, fair enough, I kind of was/am). "Well, how do you say 'you have nice eyes'?" I asked. She told me.
"You know what though?" She said. The nicest thing a guy can say to me is something about me, not something he can see from across the room.

Then she lowered the hammer: "You know, I heard you talking to my friend at that venue the first time we met, you were telling him how to handle girls--'just tell them what they want to hear' and all that." If brown people could blush, I would have (good thing we can't). "I said that...?" I said, wracking my brain for some way to field this--I had nothing." I smoothly changed the topic, but I knew I was done.

I was kicking myself inside, especially since that was a lesson straight off of GC that I had read before!--qualify girls on internal characteristics. I realized another lesson as well--never talk' shop in frickin' public! I maintained my poise though. I figured--well, she's an awesome girl, and she seems like she would genuinely be interested in me, if she weren't so convinced I was a straight up player, even after I'd tried to dial it back. I figured I was sunk. We swapped numbers, and I genuinely thanked her for talking with me, with a big smile and left.

Escalation: N/A

Move: N/A

Close: N/A

[Interaction Rating]: 8
I was firstly surprised that this girl who would never talk to me was actually talking with me. I brought the best of the best of my game, and everything came up against an impenetrable wall. Then I was furious that I managed to screw it up by coming off like an asshole player. I was convinced I'd sunk myself, and the worst thing was--it wasn't because I had no chance, but because I'd played my cards wrong. Her words had seared into my brain and I figured at least I would never make those two mistakes again.

 

[AFCnoob]

FR: The New Frontier (2/X)

Summary: Second chance with "jaded girl".

[Sandy] Italian [Rating: objective 8/subjective 8][Age: 23](ongoing)

Open: pre-existing
After failing miserably with [Sandy], I ran into her friend at the venue where I work. He told me that she was really interested in me, and that he had chatted me up to her quite a bit. "Wait, what?" I asked.
"Yeah, she seems to like you a lot." my friend responded.
"Yeah but, she was totally shutting me down, I thought she wrote me off...?"
"Ok, well I guess not."

I texted [Sandy], and it was surprisingly easy to set up another meet with her, but she said she was bringing her "friend". I figured I'd give it a try anyway, and got Red-1 on board to wing me, and block the friends.

I arrived at the venue, and [Sandy] had not one, but two friends to block. Conversation was OK, and we had quite a bit of fun. The first friend peeled off shortly after we got there, and Red-1 took over keeping the other friend out of our hair. I was careful not to jump into framing or overt compliments with [Sandy], but was at a loss as how to move the interaction forward otherwise.

I couldn't establish frames, couldn't even close distance with [Sandy], I was even cagey about just touching her. She was on high alert the whole time. At one point, Red-1 actually got the friend outside the venue while I was talking to [Sandy]. She noticed though, and leapt out of her seat. It turns out Red-1 had almost pulled the friend from the venue, but [Sandy] roped her right back, and Red-1 said he'd done all he could, and left.

Strangely enough though, things seemed somehow OK with [Sandy], we chatted more, even as the night wound down. Some other dude in the venue showed up out of nowhere and started playing pool with the friend, unwittingly winging me (thanks, random dude):

Her: "So, Red-1's a pretty good wingman."

Me: "What? What is this 'wingman' you speak of?"

Her: "Oh come on, don't pretend you don't know what a 'wingman' is."

Me: [feigning ignorance] "Uhh...like..."

Her: "Well, you know, I brought my friends so..."

Me: [getting on my high horse] "Wait, you mean you think I brought Red-1 along to like, distract your friends so I could isolate you, that kind of 'wingman'? You think I've just been calculating this whole thing to get at you...?"

Her: "Well, I mean..."

Me: [visibly offended] "Wow. Just...wow."

Her: "Well, I'm sorry if that wasn't the case, I just thought..."

Me: "Know what, never mind, let's just talk about something else."

Her: "I don't mean to sound so...sarcastic all the time but..."

Me: "No, the word you want is 'jaded' (I was going to say "cynical", but didn't), you've been hurt one too many times, and you think all men are dogs."

Her: [backpedaling] "Well, I..."

Me: "Look, you have to get over that..."

Secretly, I couldn't believe how smoothly I had dodged that bullet, but it was based on a pure lie, so I was still under the gun. The venue was closing though, and [Sandy] didn't even want to leave, I knew she was into me at this point, but there she was, pretending that she didn't. If she could lie, so could I. We left the venue, and I put my arm around her waist. Her friend left to go to a nearby convenience store and [Sandy] started joking how she didn't even really know her that well, and they did't get along. I joined her in joking about her friend. I told her I would see her again, and they got in a cab and left.

Escalation: N/A

Move: N/A

Close: N/A

[Interaction Rating]: 8
I brought my best game, and rolled with the punches the best I knew how. I was pleased with myself because I felt I finally had a read on [Sandy], she was into me, she was just insanely cagey and on high alert for the slightest hint that I was trying to play her. I knew the only way I would have a chance with her would be inside a relationship, but I was more than willing to do that at this point, and still believed I could get there. I knew I would have to ramp my game up even more though. I called Red-1 and thanked him for the awesome wing job, I also reminded him to deny everything if [Sandy] happened to ask him about the night (technical game).

 

[AFCnoob]

FR+: The New Frontier (3/X)

Summary: Meet [Sandy] again things get steamy, but STILL can't pull her

[Sandy] Italian [Rating: objective 8/subjective 8][Age: 23](ongoing)

Open: pre-existing
[Sandy] and I met and went to dinner at one of my favorite venues. We had a nice conversation, and I managed to avoid the previous pitfalls, but it was way too platonic.

Move: easy
The night was early, and I debated where to go, but then decided to move us to another of my favorite venues. It was a sunday, and this location had an upstairs that was quite private. I knew there would be no one up there, so I situated us there.

Escalation: jesus crhist...
I decided I had to go for it. It was now or friendzone, so I subtly ramped up the conversation, covering everything from childhood stories to deep diving, to subtle chase framing and sexual framing. The conversation went smoothly, but [Sandy] still kept her distance on the couch. Then I noticed something weird...she was keeping her distance, even her arm was out a little bit just in case I even tried to get close to her, but at the same time...she was mirroring me!

I wasn't sure at first, but I shifted positions a couple of times, and sure enough, she changed her body language to mirror mine. I'd sit forward--and so would she, I'd lay back and...so would she. I'd take a sip of my drink, or puff of my cigarette and just like clockwork, so would she! I suspected that on a conscious level she was trying to keep her guard up...but that she really wanted me. I decided to just go for it:

Her: "So, it seems like we've been through every conversation topic at least once."

Me: "Well, not every topic..."

Her: "What do you mean?"

Me: "Well, I've been thinking about kissing you all night."

Her: [flat stare, body language went from semi-neutral to neutral] "So what, am I supposed to have some sort of...reaction to that?"

Me: [I returned the same attitude] "No, you're just supposed to sit there in an awkward silence..."

Then I held her chin and kissed her. She was immediately really into it and even straddled me, things cooled off a bit, but she remained sitting there with her legs across mine. At one point I noticed something else that was weird--she was twitching. She would start to talk, and then her leg or arm would twitch. I mentioned this to her, but she said she didn't know why she was doing it either. I had no idea what to make of this, but let it be. Later, she still wouldn't go home when I asked. In fact, she was adamant, she even got upset, as though I had asked her to take off her clothes right there and then. I left it, and decided to shore her up for a future date.

She had been complaining about prices the whole night (she's not employed right now), and it turned out the drinks were super cheap that night because of some promotion, so I payed for them (kicking myself while I did). It was probably the wrong move, but I couldn't help it.

I put her in a cab, and she went home.

Close: N/A

[Interaction Rating]: 8
Again, I think I played my cards well, not in a PU sense but in the sense that I actually do want to make a GF out of this girl, and think that I moved things as far forward as I could (with my current skills set). It was mentally exhausting though, wracking my brain the whole time, trying to remember every tactic and read every body movement, especially while trying to appear calm, collected and unruffled!

 

[Franco]

Hey again AFC,

It's good that you were very observant of all of the nuances that [Sandy] was emitting, but it sounds like it might have distracted you a bit from your goal: which should be to get her alone and escalate.

You were able to get her out alone and meet up with you for a date. Usually at this point, I know I am golden because I've realized a girl just will not take the time and mental preparation to do that unless her intentions are to move things forward with you (assuming you lead her correctly). Even if this girl happens to be that ONE exception, you should be adamant about having this mindset since it will make you appear much more confident and increase your chances of closing anyway.

My first suggestion would have been to just take her out for a drink or coffee. Taking her out to dinner (especially when she is unemployed, which means YOU'RE paying), is adding points to the "boyfriend" scoreboard instead of the "lover" scoreboard, which I'm sure you know by reading this website is something you want to avoid. It also probably leads to more platonic conversation that could be avoided, like you had mentioned.

It seems like you like this girl, but things get a bit trickier from here. At this point, you've taken her out several times and have been unable to close with her -- but the key is that she knows that you want(ed) to. If it were me at this point, I would refrain from contacting her at all. She knows what you want, and now it's a matter of convincing her that she should move forward or that she will lose her chance with you. How do you do this? By making it seem like you might have lost interest and that she is wasting your time because you have bigger fish to fry. By not contacting her, she is going to be thinking exactly that. I guarantee it.

If she is interested, she will probably text you within the next week or two "wondering where you've been." When she does, use Chase's advice: act very calm and normal and just mention that you've been "busy," but you would like to get together again. If you can, I would suggest a home-cooked meal at your place. She should feel comfortable around you enough at this point that she would be willing to come directly over. You know what you need to do from there.

This is my suggestion. Good luck, friend!

- Franco

 

[AFCnoob]

FR++: The New Frontier (4/X)

[EDIT]: @ Franco: Thanks for the response, but this interaction has already gone off in a "different" direction, which is probably not good. But heck, I was out of ideas. Believe me when I say I was adamant about setting the right tone for this relationship, and moving it forward, but it's hard to accurately describe how adamant (to the point of bordering on paranoia) this girl was about not going home with me.

You're right that I like this girl. I would GF her in a second, and am actively trying to. Honestly, I don't know how well I've done at this point, but things have..."progressed", details are below.

note*: I just spent about 45 min composing the last entry, and then I got logged out, and the content was wiped when the page reloaded. I have no idea why I still compose in this text field...Oh well.

Long story short: I called [Sandy] (she'd specifically asked me to call, not text) to confirm the date we'd set for Friday, a week after our previous interaction, but got no response. I texted her to text me back when she got my message, but nothing. She did't call me until around 3 on Friday, then we decided to meet. She took me to an art gallery she'd mentioned previously, then we went to get something to eat. We went back to the venue we'd visited a coupleinteractions prior. Conversation was light, but I had difficulty getting out of the platonic.

The night wound down, and I suggested yet again we go back to my place, and met the same 400 foot high stone wall of resistance. She gave more excuses, and talked about trust again. I wasn't buying it. I made up my mind right there that she was coming home with me, even if she didn't know it yet.

I immediately decided to lighten the mood, and suggested we dance, putting the question of going home on hold by just sidestepping her objections and getting her up to dance. It seemed goofy at first (no one else was dancing), but I lightened the mood with jokes, and she got into it, and the music actually picked up, and other people started dancing too.

[Sandy] was dancing close, and became very affectionate, giving me every indication that she wanted me to kiss her again, but I kissed her just once--I wasn't going to let her get satisfied again. She said I looked tired, and asked if I just wanted to leave. I realized the time had come to confront her objections again, but I just wasn't up to it. I was out of tactics, out of ideas, and out of mental energy. We left and I walked over to the convenience store and bought a few beers and drank them all while talking to [Sandy]. I joked with her about how drunk I was (I wasn't at all).

At my wit's end, I simply told [Sandy]--with every ounce of conviction I had--to stop being so scared of getting hurt, to stop trying to be so safe, and to just trust me. I must have been convincing, because she just didn't say anything, except to note how dead serious I seemed. I put us in a cab and got us back to my place.

I didn't take her there planning to close, but just that she could be inside my home without me trying to jump her. We hung out for a bit, and [Sandy] said she was tired. I gave her some of my clothes to wear, and we turned in. The next morning she became quite affectionate, but still wouldn't get intimate. I figure it's just a matter of time, and that's fine with me. We spent the day together, and she still didn't want to leave when I told her later in the afternoon I still had stuff to do that day. I walked her to the train station.

Honestly, I don't know if I did well or poorly. I feel like I ultimately got what I wanted out of the interaction--moving it to where we are now (though I'm not 100% sure where that is). It was also incredibly difficult, but worked, so I feel pretty good about it. We'll see, I guess.

 

[AFCnoob]

FR++: The New Frontier (5/X)

note*: This is breaking from the FR format, and becoming more of a journal of this relationship, but hey--I still need advice.

Summary: It's official date no.3--do or die, even for BF zone and I...die.

[Sandy] Italian [Rating: objective 8/subjective 8][Age: 23](ongoing)

Open: pre-existing
We're supposed to meet up after I get off work, go to her place and look at pictures. We grab some food nearby her university dorm, and head back to her room. I kiss her briefly when we get to her room, and before her roommate arrives (roommate is a bit anti social...). We look at various pics of her on her PC and listen to some of her music--all solid relationship building stuff. We toy around with various invitations for the night, and decide to stop by my place so I can change then go to a rather large venue to meet up with some of her friends.

The venue is OK, but not awesome. I run into some of my friends as well, one girl who I was sort of trying to get with before compliments me profusely on [Sandy] (thanks?).

Move: natural
We decide to just leave the venue and grab some beers from a nearby convenience store (is this girl awesome, or what). We talk even more, sorting out values and long-term goals, world views etc. Still more relationship building.

Escalation: natural
We go back to my place and pretty much get right into bed, she actually takes her top off (yay..), but is still adamant about not going "all the way". I decide to leave it for the morning."

Close: N/A
In the morning, we start again, but she stops short of the close again. I make herculean attempts to get around it, get her going, etc. But it's not LMR, she just wants me to "wait". She's using this "pseudo intimacy" to satisfy herself, and she thinks it's enough to keep me "satiated" until she's ready to go forward. I decide to get into it with her. She's been badly burned in a couple recent relationships and has figured that the only way to be "safe" in a relationship is by retaining all the "power", which makes me sad because...

...she can't have it. She can think she has it, but delaying sex until she's ready means she wants to lead in the relationship, and I won't let her. I can't tell her any of this, I can't even explain how important it is that we advance physically at least partially on my terms, but I guess that window of opportunity has closed. We have a really great day together, order in, watch a great movie, and again, she doesn't want to leave until I have to go for work in the evening.

And I'm rather depressed right now, because she's a great girl, I like her a lot, but she can't let go of this control thing, and I'm not experienced enough to wrest it from her and advance the relationship in a way that I know is better for both of us. She's so adamant about not getting hurt that she's willing to eject from the relationship to prevent it. I'm so adamant about leading, and so unwilling to become the follower in this relationship that I'm seriously considering letting it taper off even though I really like her and want to GF her. In all honesty, I worry that the attraction will dwindle anyway as she tries to "domesticate" me further.

So that's where I'm at. I'm considering pulling away and seeing if she'll follow and agree to escalate, but if she doesn't...I guess that's it.

[Interaction Rating]: 8
I was pretty sure I'd be able to get through this "no intimacy" wall by this stage, but I haven't been able to do it. As far as I'm concerned, I've failed in moving things along at a sufficient pace, and now I'm waiting for he fallout. I'm severely frustrated, because I'm trying to imagine exactly what I might have done differently. I'm pretty angry too, because I can't even properly dissect and analyze what needs to be done. This is just so hard.

 

[Franco]

Hey AFCnoob,

It sounds to me like she realizes that she does have some control over this relationship. What might be hard for you to realize at this point is the amount of "control" you maintain over [Sandy] has been dwindling every day that's gone by that you have communicated with her but haven't taken her to bed. This can be frustrating because it can seem like you are making progress (she keeps meeting with you; she goes to sleep in your bed; etc.), but in reality, you are slowly handing her the reigns to the relationship by not being in command and not moving fast -- to a woman, this communicates that you ARE worried you won't be able to take care of her emotions. This is exactly what she is worried about. And the longer you are not in command, the harder it will be to take command in the future.

The point that I want to emphasize here is that the amount of control you have over a woman is directly proportional to the time it takes you to get her to sleep with you. This may sound rather crude and "unromantic," but the women that I have bedded on the first night of meeting them are the ones that are ALWAYS texting me and ALWAYS following my lead at every turn. They usually do not question anything I do and just assume that I always know exactly what I am doing.

For your current situation, it still may not be too late to attempt a dominant "no-contact" type of technique. What you might want to use is something that I refer to as RCO or "responsive contact only." What I mean by this is that you refrain from initiating contact with her. She will likely contact you after some period of time (with women, this can range up to a couple of weeks, but it will probably be shorter for [Sandy] since you have been seeing her frequently). When this happens, you need to be short with her (but still be nice) and say that you've just been "busy." Be vague. The idea you want to put in her head is that you are losing interest and that there could possibly be another girl you are seeing that IS willing to move things forward with you. Ideally, you want HER to be the one to ask to meet up with you. But make it on your terms! If you are busy the day that she suggests, say that it doesn't work for you but maybe X and Y does. Show her that you aren't just available whenever she wants you to be.

Once you do finally meet up, you might be surprised how much more affectionate she will be. Until you get her alone in a place where you can escalate, it would be a good idea to act very neutral and almost uninterested. Make her FEEL like she needs to win you back. Once you feel like she is really trying her hardest, you need to make your move right then and there in a very strong, fast, and confident manner. Hell, I would probably just rip her clothes off if you get the opportunity!

Anyway, I don't want to proceed in giving you advice much further than this point because you need to get this situation to occur first, but this is usually your best bet for obtaining a girl who is fearfully (and unknowingly) leading you to the friend zone.

Whatever you decide to do, just remember that everything here is a learning experience. I wish you the best of luck!

- Franco

 

[AFCnoob]

Re: FR: The New Frontier (5/X)

Hi again, Franco,

Firstly, thanks for reading, and thanks for the reply.

What might be hard for you to realize at this point is the amount of "control" you maintain over [Sandy] has been dwindling every day that's gone by that you have communicated with her but haven't taken her to bed.

Actually, I am clearly, painfully aware of this fact, and that it goes directly against "the rules". I desperately want to follow "the rules", not because they're rules, but because they work, and the other thing--i.e.: what I'm doing--doesn't. The worst shame is [Sandy] wants it just as much as I do, she is just convinced she has to do things on her terms, but she just doesn't understand I won't be in another relationship where the other person is "driving".

the amount of control you have over a woman is directly proportional to the time it takes you to get her to sleep with you.

I'm keenly aware of this, which is why I felt that I was in "do or die mode" and....

What you might want to use is something that I refer to as RCO or "responsive contact only."

Again, "them's the rules". I guess when it comes down to it, it's a simple question--what does each person want more: to be in the relationship, or to be in control in the relationship. And I guess, that's what I have to do--be willing to turn around and walk away if I can't have that control. That's the rule? "Walk away if you can't get what you want." Maybe "the world really is divided into those two kinds of people--and only one of them gets what they want." Those were [Sandy]'s words exactly.

Maybe it is a learning experience, and this is the lesson I'm learning: don't let even a girl you really want change your core objective--a relationship on your terms. That's a lesson I don't want to learn. We'll see what happens.

 

[AFCnoob]

LR: The New Frontier (6/6)

note*: Having reached a close (LR), the journaling of this interaction will end after this entry. Readers can assume [Sandy] and I are in an ongoing (exclusive) relationship unless there is some change.

Summary: Worst.Close.Ever.

[Sandy] Italian [Rating: objective 8/subjective 8][Age: 23](ongoing)

Open: pre-existing
Rather than go shopping around where [Sandy] lives (far away). I decided to have her come to where I was and we'd "hang out". I was also determined to remain high energy--keep a brisk pace to the whole evening, and generally have so much fun that [Sandy] would lose any lingering doubts about intimacy whatsoever. So: general BF/GF stuff---walk around the park, talk about her job, go shopping for clothes, go to dinner, etc.

Move: natural
Then...we go back to my place.

Escalation: natural
Then we make out on the couch. [Sandy] complains she's still cold even tho the AC's blasting. Know where it's warm? Up the stairs...where my bed is, that's where. (We've been through all this before, a couple of times).

Close: Worst.Close.Ever
So [Sandy] and I are on my bed and honestly...I don't care whether we sleep together or not. She seems ready to go but then...she seemed like that both times we were in this same exact situation and---if I went for it and she put up resistance, I was seriously thinking of just calling it a night right there, and ending the interaction as well--for good. So I didn't want to rush to do that. On top of that, I was a little pissed that she'd been holding out for so long. Not because I really wanted to get fully intimate, but because I she didn't trust me enough to do so earlier.

We started talking about getting intimate again, which killed the mood. Nonetheless, eventually, after a few false starts, it became clear that yes, [Sandy] was finally ready for the two of us to get fully intimate. The only problem was: I could not get aroused--at all. The stress of the whole evening---of the last few days after my last failed attempt to get intimate with her--of worrying where this whole thing is going--and of the fact that [Sandy] said she still had to go home after (so...don't take too long!) totally destroyed my head game.

Failing to perform is quite an embarrassing (and rather emasculating) situation--and one that I've never had to deal with! The absolute worst is that [Sandy] is quite different from every other woman I've slept with, and gets turned on by very different things, so I couldn't even "help her out". Wow. I can't begin to describe the cocktail of negative emotions coursing through me at that moment, made all the better by the fact that I couldn't let any of it show on the surface, but had to remain ostensibly calm, collected, and genial, if a little apologetic.

We told each other we'd figure it out next time, and I sent [Sandy] home in a taxi.

[Interaction Rating]: 8
I learned: If your head game is f*cked on a fundamental level, and just dealing with a girl causes mountains of stress, you may find yourself in the comical position of successfully closing with her, only to be completely unable to perform. And if that's not a valuable lesson, I don't know what is. IR: 8.

 

[Chase]

Re: LR: The New Frontier (6/6)

Hey AFCnoob,

Italian women... ooh. They learn how to play guys like a fiddle after the uber-aggressive men they have to learn how to handle in that country. All I'll say on this one is, enjoy her passion... but be careful you don't get too attached! Good chance that's her specialty.

On top of that, I was a little pissed that she'd been holding out for so long. Not because I really wanted to get fully intimate, but because I she didn't trust me enough to do so earlier.

Women do this to place the sexual power in their favor. The longer a man must wait and pursue a woman to get to sex, the more committed he becomes in a monogamous relationship and the more highly he intrinsically values her. These days, I've come to believe there's a deeply encoded trigger in a man's brain he simply CANNOT get around... the more he has to work for sex, the higher value the woman is to him, period. It has little to do with her herself, and everything to do with how hard he had to work to get her.

We started talking about getting intimate again, which killed the mood. Nonetheless, eventually, after a few false starts, it became clear that yes, [Sandy] was finally ready for the two of us to get fully intimate. The only problem was: I could not get aroused--at all. The stress of the whole evening---of the last few days after my last failed attempt to get intimate with her--of worrying where this whole thing is going--and of the fact that [Sandy] said she still had to go home after (so...don't take too long!) totally destroyed my head game.

Failing to perform is quite an embarrassing (and rather emasculating) situation--and one that I've never had to deal with! The absolute worst is that [Sandy] is quite different from every other woman I've slept with, and gets turned on by very different things, so I couldn't even "help her out". Wow. I can't begin to describe the cocktail of negative emotions coursing through me at that moment, made all the better by the fact that I couldn't let any of it show on the surface, but had to remain ostensibly calm, collected, and genial, if a little apologetic.

One of the best things to do in this situation is to simply get her naked, then get yourself naked, and tell her, "I'm going to need you to help me get ready," and have her go down on you. Another alternative is simply taking the underside of your penis and rubbing it along her naked body... her belly, her breasts, her thighs, her buttocks... whatever turns you on. And then - and this is the most important part - you tell yourself it doesn't matter how long it takes you to get hard, you're just going to enjoy rubbing your cock against her (or getting sucked if you asked her to use her mouth). Just relax and focus on the sensation, and reassure yourself that yes - she came all the way back here, she took her clothes off, she wants it, she's ready - she's not going to get up and put her clothes on and go just because it takes you 5 or 10 or 15 minutes or however long it's going to take to get ready. So take your time, use her body to excite yourself, and don't worry about getting hard, because you will eventually.

Chase

 

[AFCnoob]

Italian women... ooh. They learn how to play guys like a fiddle after the uber-aggressive men they have to learn how to handle in that country.

No kidding, I wish I had known this beforehand...

Women do this to place the sexual power in their favor.

Yeah....that was painfully obvious from the outset, but here I am. Fortunately, I've been reigning myself in, and making sure not to become complacent or accept a passive or submissive role in the relationship. [Sandy] puts up a bold front, but underneath it, she's still a girl, and so it's OK, I guess.

Fortunately, [Sandy] and I have since overcome our coitus conundrum once the pressure was off and we gave ourselves some more time and discussed a bit more about what we like. Turns out she reaches climax quite loudly and forcefully (who knew?), which is pretty cool.

I still have some issues with things though, because I find her so attractive (as emasculating as that is to say). You've given some great suggestions--I tend to try to rush things and get quite nervous if things don't happen immediately when we're being intimate. I will definitely take your excellent advice. As usual, thanks!

 

[stratvm]

You can use viagra as well until performance anxiety goes away. And you can give her as well... It really helped me.

 

[AFCnoob]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I actually have not given full disclosure as to the real root of this problem. My equipment works just fine, and just as it always has (which is to say, in overdrive) when I'm "on my own" (I've checked a few times just to make sure), but the truth is:

I'm suffering under massive guilt from a failed relationship that I believe I mentioned briefly in a journal post of mine. I tend to think about my X most just before and just after being intimate with another girl (there have been a few) so...guilt is killing my boner.

Yeah, need to fix my headgame, but have been plowing ahead with other interactions instead. I guess suffering physically is my punishment.

 

[stratvm]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I actually have not given full disclosure as to the real root of this problem. My equipment works just fine, and just as it always has (which is to say, in overdrive) when I'm "on my own" (I've checked a few times just to make sure), but the truth is:

I'm suffering under massive guilt from a failed relationship that I believe I mentioned briefly in a journal post of mine. I tend to think about my X most just before and just after being intimate with another girl (there have been a few) so...guilt is killing my boner.

Yeah, need to fix my headgame, but have been plowing ahead with other interactions instead. I guess suffering physically is my punishment.

it is very good even if there is no physical problems and it works wonders on women too. its reassuring that whatever happens you will be fine, i can 100% recommend for first dates.

 

[Flames]

This is going to sound harsh but here goes...

The biggest mistake you made was not staying in frame, you allowed her to control what you did. She did this by asking you leading questions which suckered you into behaving like she wanted you to.

Remember when you felt like you fucked up, that's because you were trying to tell yourself you were being incongruent.

Next time try being the guy you are instead of what you think others (girls) want and you'll be fine with 90% of women. This means being honest about who you are and why your there.

I could go on, but that's really all you need to know

Hope that helps.

Edit- sorry I didn't read the last post about your head no being in it, so there ya go, that's THE only thing holding you back (or anyone for that matter).