The Vet vs The Newb

[Tony D]

I’ve found that for the vast majority of guys, including myself, success in pickup comes more from effort than skill. What I mean is if you’re going out 5 nights a week, or daygaming a lot, or spending many, many hours online dating, then you’ll achieve results.

You’re skill will increase with experience of course. If I go to a party for example and meet some beautiful women, I know how to make them laugh, touch them, cold read, and generally create attraction. Cold approaching is the thought part. The whole “What to say” thing is not an issue, at all. But just like everyone, the veteran still must cold approach and are subject almost completely to the whims of the target. If she’s in a bad mood it doesn’t matter if you’re great with women, or new. Outside of basics like dressing well, standing up straight, holding eye contact, vocal projection, etc.

Sure the vet may have more interesting opening gambits, or grab-hand-spin-moves, or more talented wings. But the amateur who’s approaching twenty beautiful women a night will still have as much chance as the vet who approaches five.

What happens is vets get lazy. They rely on their skill more than their work ethic. This means their interaction feel “better’. The women hook harder, as they’r better at selecting the right girls, the ones that they’r very attracted to. But the thirsty amateur has an ambition, an underdog advantage, that the vet doesn’t have any more.

At least, this has been my experience. There is always anecdotal evidence. But I’ve taught hundreds of men infield, and I know that this guy who’s been blown out a few times, if he just keeps going, it’s only a matter of time before he meets a girl and gets enough right to pick her up.

Look at a band like the Sex Pistols. None of those guys really knew how to play well, but they played a lot. Their talent and charisma made up for their lack of technical skill. This is what most newbs fail to grasp, that even if they’re not as skilled as a vet, they still have their own charisma. Combine that with a strong ambition and you’re going to succeed. The skill will come later, and not necessarily will it be better for you than when you were young and thirsty.

 

[Teevster]

What happens is vets get lazy. They rely on their skill more than their work ethic. This means their interaction feel “better’. The women hook harder, as they’r better at selecting the right girls, the ones that they’r very attracted to. But the thirsty amateur has an ambition, an underdog advantage, that the vet doesn’t have any more.

Sad but true I am always too lazy to deliver 100%.... I mean why bother right? For yet another lay?

And then miss world contestant shows up...

Oh I guess it is game on

Best,

 

[Space]

@Tony D, it seems to me we are just wired totally differently (see here and here) but that's totally fine. So your advice to guys who are stuck in what some guys in the community call "beginners' hell" or "intermediate hell" is...? Be oblivious to and not build on previous guys' achievements and experiences and just grind it, like invent the whole thing again? Not sure these two are the same of different though. Here's mine if anyone cares.

"The definition of insanity is repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting different results." - Unknown

I'm not saying I'm totally stuck. I go out like 10 hours a week, 5 hours day, 5 hours night, 20 approaches in total (that's more like an observation than a rule as I have no influence on how many "Fuck Yes" girls the universe throws in front of me today), usually one or two "very good" interactions. That means a number exchange and/or an insta-date. Oh, and I do the whole thing in one day of the week. That may not sound like a good ratio to you but to put things in context Mark Manson's "Fuck Yes" is not about you notice a girl and you immediately want to make babies with her. It's just a Fuck Yes to say "hi" to her. I'm a screener, too. So 2/3 of my interactions are more like just friendly conversations as one or both of us realize there isn't much chemistry. Sometimes I just walk out of interactions which start totally fine for reasons like I'm not on a vacation and I have to go on with my daily program, I can't wait forever. This may sound like a shocker in a big city I know. Or I simply don't force through the whole thing for the average girl I approach with not above average interactions we have let's say, as approaching is quite emotionally taxing itself. I don't miss these girls the next day though. I hope I didn't became an RSD zombie. I don't know that much of RSD to truly tell. That said, if she is a really nice girl and it's 4AM in the morning and she is the last one for the day - then it suddenly isn't that mentally taxing than if she were just my average girl. You can be attracted to different girls during the day at different levels, right? That's normal. You can't fake attraction as someone said here.

Could it be Space's tastes and Chase's tastes really are just totally completely alien from one another?

Most importantly. What I've said maybe more than once that even though the forum is confusing in a way that it's a "guru forum" with many experts giving their diverse opinions and no noobs are getting laid as Good Looking Loser puts it, actually I like your seduction advice even though yeah, we may have totally different views on other things like business and popular culture and what's doomed and what isn't. But as far as we are mainly here for the topic of seduction I don't see it as an unresolvable difference. Speaking of Good Looking Loser's idea. Who made 3 posts to this forum here but a long time ago and I can't summon him. He is not a big fan of various gurus giving their diverse advice on his forum for the same reason noobs not to get confused and then as a result they don't get laid. @Skills previously on NextASF. But I find it odd Chase, that on your very site and community, your opinion as the founder is a minority opinion and most people, beginners to intermediates end up with lots of confusing advice. At least this is how I see it. You said most forums are dying. The big forums. There are still smaller WhatsApp and Facebook groups. Speaking for myself I perhaps would still prefer even a smaller community than the one big "guru community" with just one strong leader with a strong opinion who I can if not 100% because it's not possible but more or less align with. Just to give you an idea to how to can get perhaps Your Message across in a more effective way so you don't have to move to the boots business.

But back to Tony D's thesis. I don't feel like getting to the next level automatically), but I definitely appreciate the fact that I have the opportunity to build on the previous guys' achievements and experiences. @Chase wrote me before (I wanted to find that exchange between us) that yeah, probably a little more learning and less going out would benefit me. I definitely don't have the strongest verbals, maybe too logical. Even when I ask about her feelings, lol. All in all, this is a complicated art form.

I wanted to post this somewhere, hopefully it doesn't desecrate your topic.

 

[Tony D]

I noticed in your post, a difference between us. You keep mentioning all these different "gurus". Mark Manson, GLL, Chase, RSD, and myself. Personally I don't see any dating coaches as gurus. They are bloggers, Youtubers and finally life coaches. Essentially they are all content creators. I don't see myself as a guru, nor them. To me, they're just men in the locker room, sharing tips about the epiphanies they've had in this quest to get laid, find a gf, whatever. The reason you find conflicting advice is because we all have different life experiences.

There came a point in my own pickup journey, very early on, when I realized I couldn't really learn much from the diverse selection of authors anymore. Even on MASF, there were loads of experts. The same forum I met Chase on had Mystery, Ross Jeffries, RSD Tyler, Gunwitch, Teevester, Richard Laruina, Gambler, and pretty much every other dating expert. They all loved to argue and contradict themselves, and others. I'd post a question, get a ton of conflicting advice, and in the end, I'd either go out and score, or not. I got a lot more value from forums by sharing my experiences than asking questions.

I learned that these guys are motivation, and that's about it. Even on bootcamps, I'm more a motivational speaker than anything else.

Also I've been out with enough "gurus' to know that most of them are no better than the average natural. In fact, most are worse. And most go home alone at night, just like you. The nights you do pull you thank the God's for giving you the luck you needed to meet that girl, and not fuck it up. I've just met enough of these guys to not pedestalize them, or their advice. If you respect them, respect them for their ability to communicate more than your imaginary picture of how good they are at pickup. That's like admiring a hockey expert even though you've never seen them skate, or have only seen clips on Youtube.

If you're working hard at all this stuff Space, then that's admirable. Become your own guru. That's what we all did. Declare yourself the greatest.

I'm not sure what your question was or if you have one. If you don't care for my writing, then that's fair. If someone else's ideas gel better with your own, then enjoy their content. The more the merrier. Take what works for you, and discard the rest.

 

[Grand Pooba]

Really good distinction that's excellent to point out - effort based results versus skill based results. The newbie is willing to put in tons of effort quickly but doesn't have the skill; the experienced guy has tons of skill, but doesn't have the same drive. In my own experience as a now "vet," I can easily blame my effort when I'm not getting the results I want.

Momentum also greatly effects how effective the skills are.

 

[Tony D]

The older I get the more I think about a life of fishing, home brewing, and writing poetry, rather than chasing girls around malls and bars. The only thing that keeps me in the game is I love to travel, and my job, which is to teach other guys how to do what I used to find fascinating.