"Treat a Hooker like a Lady, and a Lady like a Whore?"

[AdamC]

Now this is a repost of "Quick Question!" but I realized with the new site formatting no one would see the initial question - Is there any truth to the classic olde skool saying "Treat a Hooker like a Lady, and a Lady like a Whore?"

I'm very curious based on an interesting recent experience. I was with an acquaintance, and he pointed to an attractive female dressed well, who could be a real estate agent or something, and he said "Hey Man, you know who that is?" I shrugged. He said "That's Sensual Jane, or Simone Sinns the pornstar..." (or whatever her name was, I just made up the other two) I said "really? she looks like a business chick to me." He's like - "Yeah! That's her for sure..." And whatever, but the classic olde skool saying "Treat a Hooker like a Lady, and a Lady like a Whore," popped into my head, as if I heard it from my Father's olde skool friends back in the day.

Soooooo, is there any truth this this?

How would you define a "Lady?"
How would you define a "Hooker, or a Whore?"

How do you realistically treat the "Lady" like a Whore, and/or the "Hooker like a Lady?"

Is a Hooker just a prostitute, or a high end escort, or one of the strippers I hear about from scruffy Set Crew Guys, who'll Fuck you in the VIP room for $200. Do promiscuous Women fall into this category, or the OF girls I keep meeting?

Again, what exactly is a "Lady?" Some kind of Ultra Christian, or Devout Muslim Girl?

Such a simple saying brought up sooo many questions.

Interested in your thoughts!

 

[Lover]

This article should perfectly answer your questions if you didn't read it already

How to Treat a Woman: Like a Queen, or Like a Whore?

One common stumbling block for men who are rusty or inexperienced is deciding how to treat a woman. Should you treat her unfailingly well... or should you treat her in some other way? In fact - particularly if you're new, or around women you consider "out of your league" - you may find yourself...

www.girlschase.com

 

[AdamC]

So that is a fun article.
I prefer the saying "tell a hott girl she's smart, and a smart girl she's cute..."

Now, I agree with giving the "Queen" type girl a hard time. I encounter my fair share of those. The shit-test a lot.
I'm still trying get the flow of it with them. I'll either fail the shit-tests, or be too nice to early, and then they think they've quote "won."
I just gotta approach and interact with them more.
From a coach I initially worked with, to pass shit-tests you either "agree and exaggerate," or "ignore and misinterpret..."

Now as a far as the quote "whore."
I have not found that treating them like "queens" works.
The ones I've encountered would be strippers, or OF girls, maybe undercover high-end escorts that I don't know about.
These girls have A LOT of experience with dudes, and didn't take to well to me doing Gentleman things like "opening the car door." Or the Restaurant door. Funny, the Eastern European non stripper, or OF girls love that shit...
And they also didn't like it when I tried "deep diving," or trying to relate on a more personal level.
Anyway, the experienced quote "whore" type girls thought it wasn't manly enough, and too nice guy. So I'm not sure hoe you really are supposed to handle these advanced-experienced women.

Unless, it's cultural like the Eastern Europeans. Those girls are American, and it might be a Feminist thing. Like, I'm a sexually free feminist who doesn't need this guy to open my car door, or the coffee shop door, and I don't need him to get personal with me.

Again, I'm just curious here.

 

[Lover]

Now as a far as the quote "whore."
I have not found that treating them like "queens" works.
The ones I've encountered would be strippers, or OF girls, maybe undercover high-end escorts that I don't know about.
These girls have A LOT of experience with dudes, and didn't take to well to me doing Gentleman things like "opening the car door." Or the Restaurant door. Funny, the Eastern European non stripper, or OF girls love that shit...
And they also didn't like it when I tried "deep diving," or trying to relate on a more personal level.
Anyway, the experienced quote "whore" type girls thought it wasn't manly enough, and too nice guy. So I'm not sure hoe you really are supposed to handle these advanced-experienced women.

When people say whore, think of the traditional prostitute that you meet in the street and pay to bust your nut inside.

Those other examples you mention (except strippers I guess?) are women that are well-known on their social media accounts, OF account and the likes. They usually have thousands of online followers and are used to men sucking up to them for free (no money involved). And the men will pay for subscriptions, pictures and videos on their OF.

But most importantly, these women are getting a lot of attention and admiration that I equal to queen treatment. At least that is my takeaway after researching on this. I don't have experience with women in this line of work though.

I'm also curious. Do you purposefully meet/contact these women, or is it just by accident?

 

[AdamC]

When people say whore, think of the traditional prostitute that you meet in the street and pay to bust your nut inside.

Those other examples you mention (except strippers I guess?) are women that are well-known on their social media accounts, OF account and the likes. They usually have thousands of online followers and are used to men sucking up to them for free (no money involved). And the men will pay for subscriptions, pictures and videos on their OF.

But most importantly, these women are getting a lot of attention and admiration that I equal to queen treatment. At least that is my takeaway after researching on this. I don't have experience with women in this line of work though.

I'm also curious. Do you purposefully meet/contact these women, or is it just by accident?

Okay - Yes. They are like Queens.
Cool.
Do I seek these OF girls out.
Not exactly. I mainly do Day Game Cold Approach. But I guess here in Los Angeles, where there is a heavy influence on entertainment, a lot of girls who are aspiring singers, musicians, actresses, artists, hell even a lot of make-up and hair girls on set, they do some form of OF. Whether it's just "feet" or all the way to B/G.
Sooo I'm gonna have to figure out how to work 'em, if they are so prevalent!
I also do the photography thing, mainly landscape and architecture right now, but when I did some portrait work, a handful of those girls had two identities. The square fashion writer. Or aspiring director, etcetera. And then I found out - ohhh, OF girl/s. Or even Weekend Warrior Vegas Escort...

It's a wild world out here in the West.
Like Dr. Dre says:
Now let me welcome everybody to the Wild Wild West
A state that's untouchable like Eliot Ness
The track hits your eardrum like a slug to your chest
Pack a vest for your Jimmy in the city of sex...

 

[Lover]

Okay - Yes. They are like Queens.
Cool.

Then give them more "whore treatment" and see if you can make them forget about their "businesses" when you seduce them.

Bust their balls, have fun with them, flirt with them, dont deep dive them for good unless you have slept with them etc.

I hope you get the idea. You don't want to get the same label as the guys that drool over them and that are not real to them or not a sexual option to them. This is how you should operate generally and not only with these kind of women.

Have fun!

 

[AdamC]

Hey Lover,

Clarify for a second, because I was thinking about your response.
First, "don't deep dive them for good unless you have slept with them." - Does this mean you can't have deeper conversation to get their "blue-print," or see where they are at personally. Or is it just like, don't get soo heavy like - "so, what do you want to do with your life, and where do you want to be in 5 years?"

And this - "You don't want to get the same label as the guys that drool over them and that are not real to them or not a sexual option to them."

NO. I don't want to get that Fucking Label anymore. That's exactly what that basically Nude Yellow OF girl labeled me back in the beginning of June. NOW - I want to be a sexual option to them. And what do you mean - are not real to them? This is a curious statement. Playing Devil's advocate, how are average guys "not real to them?"

Interested in your thoughts.

 

[Lover]

Or is it just like, don't get soo heavy like - "so, what do you want to do with your life, and where do you want to be in 5 years?"

This is what I meant, yes. Girls that are used to positive attention and admiration generally need more stimulation (= attraction, arousal etc.) and maybe even some sex before they (can/want to) open up about more personal stuff



If you are up for it, you can initiate a deep dive and see how she responds. Basically you lead your deep dive the way you usually would. But your intention is to use it as a screening tool to see if she is open to tell you personal stuff.

If she just starts talking with no or little resistance --> go ahead and dive further

If she seems uncomfortable, gives short answers that are not going anywhere or changes the subject --> forget it for now and maybe circle back to it later

And what do you mean - are not real to them? This is a curious statement. Playing Devil's advocate, how are average guys "not real to them?"

I was talking about the influencers with a huge online following. Those that get bombed with online comments about how beautiful/sexy/hot they are every time they upload a spicy picture.

Guys who do this are not real to these women. They are just a comment on their screens.

 

[AdamC]

Ahha, yeah, we're on the same page then...
Cool. Let ya know how it goes with these high-attention OF girls, models, actresses, whoever I encounter out here.

 

[AdamC]

This is what I meant, yes. Girls that are used to positive attention and admiration generally need more stimulation (= attraction, arousal etc.) and maybe even some sex before they (can/want to) open up about more personal stuff



If you are up for it, you can initiate a deep dive and see how she responds. Basically you lead your deep dive the way you usually would. But your intention is to use it as a screening tool to see if she is open to tell you personal stuff.

If she just starts talking with no or little resistance --> go ahead and dive further

If she seems uncomfortable, gives short answers that are not going anywhere or changes the subject --> forget it for now and maybe circle back to it later


I was talking about the influencers with a huge online following. Those that get bombed with online comments about how beautiful/sexy/hot they are every time they upload a spicy picture.

Guys who do this are not real to these women. They are just a comment on their screens.

This is what I meant, yes. Girls that are used to positive attention and admiration generally need more stimulation (= attraction, arousal etc.) and maybe even some sex before they (can/want to) open up about more personal stuff



If you are up for it, you can initiate a deep dive and see how she responds. Basically you lead your deep dive the way you usually would. But your intention is to use it as a screening tool to see if she is open to tell you personal stuff.

If she just starts talking with no or little resistance --> go ahead and dive further

If she seems uncomfortable, gives short answers that are not going anywhere or changes the subject --> forget it for now and maybe circle back to it later


I was talking about the influencers with a huge online following. Those that get bombed with online comments about how beautiful/sexy/hot they are every time they upload a spicy picture.

Guys who do this are not real to these women. They are just a comment on their screens.

Hey "Lover Guy"
(It feels awkward addressing you as just "Lover")

So how do you present yourself to these Queens in the beginning to set the Frame that you are a sexual option, and not just an average guy, who's one of their "Fans?" And then get compliance accordingly?

Case in point 4 recent female experiences:

1. So, outside the Silverlake Wholefoods, I approached this tall, modelesque platinum blonde, who turned out to be using ear buds and talking on her cell phone. She put her finger in my face, with kind of a scold and said - "I'm a talent agent on the phone with an important client," and turned on me... I was like "Fuck You Bitch, don't put your finger in my face like I'm some kid" -BUT I didn't say that, I was thinking it - I was caught in weird spot. If I was reactive like the previous - I LOSE, and look like a butt hurt guy.
YET, if I just walk away, then I'm kind-of a pansy accepting defeat.
I'm not a pansey, but I didn't really know what to do, and didn't want to be reactive so I left the set...

How would you set the Frame (as a sexual option) and get compliance with this kinda chick and situation?

2. In Koreatown, there was this attractive Hispanic or maybe Asian mix light skinned early 20's Goth-Hipster chick, tall, knee high black boots, short skirt with ass-cheeks hanging out, a lace teddy top, no bra, red lipstick and jetblack curly hair...
She looked at me, sized me up and down - kinda like an approach invitation, but was with her goth-hipster group of friends. Her look was screaming - EVERYONE, LOOK AT ME!
She reminded me a lot like what Alek wrote about with certain Club Girls, who you think are these total sex freaks, but actually they get off on making you think that - and are actually more into the Attention rather than actually moving a real experience along.

How would you set the Frame (as a sexual option) and get compliance with this kinda chick and situation?

3. The Wilhelmina Model working as a background actress - on the last show I worked. She was tall, looked Persian, or Indian. I opened her by saying - "You remind me of this Persian girl I use to know, Shirley. She was Orthodox in the Pico/Robertson area..." This Wilhelmina Model was kinda snooty. Really thought she was on a high pedestal. She responded smugly and bluntly by saying she was actually Mexican. I asked her what she was up to with the show. She said that she is going to be an actress, and that Wilhelmina set her up with background to begin the process... I was like okay.
ACTUALLY, In reality. Almost no one gets a chance to really become a real actor doing background. Once you are background, you stay background. Everyone knows this, and so would Wilhelmina! So, in reality, she is a Whilhemina Model, who needs to also do background to pay the bills.
Anyway, I got cockblocked by an older female crew member, who pulled me aside and said that it was Racist for me to say that she Persian, or Indian, and that it was creepy that I was talking to her...
I actually encountered this same chick several weeks later on the show, and she was like - "Ohh, you again..."
Internally I was like - "Fuck you bitch, actin' like your shot don't stink!"

How would you set the Frame (as a sexual option) and get compliance with this kinda chick and situation?

4. The actual REAL successful Model at the grocery store. Extremely nice. Overly nice. Almost felt like she was saying - "Ohh, what a cute puppy dog who thinks I'm this hott model. I'll pat him on the head, because it's just so cute to see him give me attention..."
Again, inside I was like - "Don't fucking treat me like a 10 year old, with this overly nice shit..." We had a polite interaction, and then when I tried to close, she gave me the Boy Friend excuse. But, then actually it probably isn't an excuse because a chick that attractive probably does have a boyfriend - and you'd have to accept that getting with her, you'd have to share her with her boyfriend - Totally different post all together!

FINALLY - The Brazilian Dream Woman, just from early this evening. Turned the corner and saw her. Her look hit me "like a slug in the chest." Voluptuous, tall, brown in a Yellow Yoga Suit, with Yoga mat just coming from class. In my head I'd want to approach her and say: "Oh my God, you are my Brazilian Dream Woman... How can we get naked together?"
In her mind, if I approached that way, even not saying it, she's saying - OF COURSE I'm your Brazilian Dream Woman! Of course you want to get naked with me - YAWN.....
But funny the next thing that hit me mentally was - "Ohh, wait, you can't approach her. You're no Ryan Gosling, who has a Penthouse Condo in Downtown, West Hollywood, or Century City. Who drives one of those fancy Range Rovers, takes her on vacations to Morocco, and does Yacht weekends. - You can't approach her!"
Or, you just aren't the cool guy who got to Fuck her this weekend!

I didn't approach her.

How would you set the Frame (as a sexual option) and get compliance with this kinda chick and situation?

Pretty thick, I know, but Thoughts?

 

[gameboy]

So how do you present yourself to these Queens in the beginning to set the Frame that you are a sexual option,

Your wording indicates that you see yourself beneath them. Girls are 'Queens" (with capital q!) and you are struggling to just be an "option"...

That's something you need to fix first. Because whatever your internal feelings, the girl will pick up on it more often than not.

And when a girl actually is nice to you (#4) you get upset about it... why?! Maybe she did have a bf. But if she didn't, and at all noticed your hidden hostility at her niceness, then she'd for sure give you the bf excuse.

I think there's an article about girls being silly and cute somewher on GC. That's the mindset you want to have.

 

[AdamC]

Ahha, "Yes, you are correct Sir..."
There is a deeper undertone of putting them up on a pedestal here.

Part of it is from a current rough dynamic situation, and another part is from a generally toxic environment where others offer their opinions, even when it isn't asked, like - "She's way out of your league Man..." And, I'm like (in my head) - "Did I Fuckin' ask you who is, or is not, quote in my league, Dude?" but that shit sticks subconsciously.

I'm probably gonna have a more psychological post coming up, of what I imagine a lot of other newer or greener Guys like me encounter in these similar situations...

It's good to keep the dialogue going to break into "more better" thinking and action!

 

[Pups]

Hard to read all of this because some of you are very long winded but,

I think there is a dichotomy between female seduction targets. One is that she was treated poorly in life and thus, she responds very well to being treated nicely.

The second type has been pampered her entire life. She likes to be treated sorta harshly and in some cases she likes to be abused and even hurt. All because of her upbringing.

It seems most women fit into one or the other categories. And once you can rapidly identify which category she belongs you might be surprised how powerful it can become.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

Hey @AdamC, this last post describing your recent interactions was pretty painful, because it’s exactly how I feel treated sometimes by hot girls and I’ve had similar reactions to them.

And that’s the problem, if you let anything a hot girl say or do affect you then it means she has power over you, basically it’s totally falling into her frame.

And this includes both closing yourself up completely to them and getting angry back at them, they are both types of autorejection.

@gameboy has a great point, it really is about treating them as silly and cute.

Think it in another way. Let’s say a girl that you didn’t like that much, was even just nice to you treating you like a kid. Your reaction there would probably be to not take her seriously, maybe even laugh at the situation internally and move on with your day. If you had to keep seeing her in a social circle you would tease her and dismiss all her attempts to make you qualify, impose her frame or whatever.

And this would happen because you would honestly not care treating this girl really well until she took you seriously and treated you with respect. As long as she was posing like a queen you would have no chance with, you would simply treat her as silly and cute because that’s exactly what she is by thinking she is some special being.

The problem with the hottest girls that do the same, is that we think that they are indeed special, and we feel judged as not enough and that we could not be lovers of them. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy though, because then we get reactive and they can sense they have a hold on us.

And the issue is that even if you try to make your way through simply by using certain techniques, they still don’t work, because the girl can feel subconsciously that you are doing what you are going exactly because you think there is a value gap between you two that you have to bridge.

I am not that good yet myself at managing all this emotionally, and staying calm, centered and unaffected at the way the hottest girls treat me, but I feel that this is the goal.

Of course if you get certain reactions and treatment by them all the time it can wear you down, that’s why I feel in the beginning it’s a lot about working with yourself until you get some successes you can use as proof that some of these hottest girls do like you sexually.

We could also talk about how you present yourself, that maybe you don’t come off as masculine initially, which is another issue I have, that said I feel in the end it is still affected a lot by this change of mindset towards seeing them as silly and cute.

So after this long post my view would be this. Stop seeing these girls as these super hot dream model queens, and when you notice them just think of them as these extra cute ones you hope they can be a bit fun. You don’t want sex just because they are super hot, you want to have fun with them and if they can follow your vibe, they will be rewarded with some great sex.

 

[Will_V]

In my view, there's some truth to the adage of 'treat a whore like a lady and a lady like a whore' as a sort of tactical recalibration. But I think when a guy ends up thinking in those terms it's usually because somehow or other the power dynamic ends up drastically in her favor, likely due to his calibration, which is driven by his perceptions.

I consider myself to have a very high level of self awareness, it's something I had to develop to get out of social anxiety, and I've cultivated it for many years to help me handle difficult social and emotional situations. And I still find it very easy for my perception of myself - my mental avatar of myself - to drift away from the reality of how I'm coming across.

It can be hard to accept at first, but in social interactions, the only thing you can really trust is the reactions you get - as long as they are spread out over several people who haven't seen you interact with the others. For example, if you get blown out by three girls in the same club who are all standing very close to eachother, chances are that you only really blew it with one of them, but the others saw it and assumed there was something wrong with you. But if you get treated the same way by girls who've never met eachother, it's because they all see something - the same thing - that triggers their reaction. What you feel and how you think you came across is irrelevant. You can only realistically proceed from the assumption that, if it did not predict the result, your internal reality is incorrect.

It's the same with all people - if every guy you interact with all day tools you, it's because something about you seems weak and easy to take advantage of. If every person you meet turns their attention away from you immediately after seeing you, it's because something about your countenance is unpleasant or negative. That's the cold, hard reality of it, and your only solution is to correct it.

If you only get blown out by redheads, it's not because redheads are weird. It's because you are acting differently around readheads, and getting different reactions as a result. And if you get blown out by 'Ladies' and not by 'Whores' it's because you're treating 'Ladies' differently than you are treating 'Whores'.

Yes there's a baseline adjustment you'll want to make depending on the immediate context of a situation - like if there's clearly a huge status/power differential from the get go - but generally, in my opinion, the only long term solution is to fundamentally treat girls the same. It's the only way to avoid having to make these huge tactical adjustments to your internal reality all the time - which is pretty inefficient and ineffective anyway, because our internal reality is not constructed in fifteen minutes, but over the course of months and years.

How you reach that equilibrium level of treating women is up to you, but the way I usually do it is to flirt at least a little tiny bit with every single woman I meet - whether she's an old woman at a grocery store, an overweight emo girl with blue hair at starbucks, or a striking, elegant, vibrant, office siren. That way, not only do I constantly experience the existential realization that all girls are the same inside, but I don't feel so different meeting one vs the other, I'm thinking like 'yeah whatever you've got nice buns but inside you're the same as that emo girl, you're just driving a ferrari and not a toyota'. Because I have the experience of them all responding in the same way, looking at me the same way, and seeing the same thing in their eyes. Their souls are no different.

Just today I went jogging and there's roadworks going on, one of the traffic controllers was this chubby girl with an average face. I wanted to go through, so I asked her whether I could just run through the middle of it. And without realizing it, because it's so instinctive to me, I started flirting with her, asked her name, played with eye contact, and as we wrapped up I told her with a surreptitious smile that I'll look for her any time I need to run through there. Later today as I rode my bike I saw her again on a different stretch of road, and she gave me a big smile and a wave. And I thought 'yep, you're a good girl, just the same as all the other wonderful girls out there'.

If you don't find a way to do this, you end up unconsciously judging women, applying value differentials to them, applying value judgements to yourself based on how different girls react, feeling wildly different around the ones you want to have sex with vs the ones you don't, and your whole presentation ends up painted with the neediness of a guy who is trying to idealize the world into a place of things that have value and things that don't - a place of Ladies and Whores.

 

[AdamC]

Good Stuff Chris and Will...

I've got some other questions coming up next week, that could be related to all this. Stay tuned, and dig the dynamic feedback!